Watch Out Woodpeckers

[Leon]

Jumping on the Festool Domino gravy train.

$299.00


https://www.leevalley.com/en-us/shop/tools/power-tool-accessories/114883-veritas-domino-joinery-table?item=05J1701&utm_campaign=222844_JULY18-wood-VeritasDominoTable-US&utm_medium=email&utm_source=Lee+Valley&dm_i=6EER%2C4RY4%2C12QOS9%2CN8AU%2C1



And for 2.3 times more money,

https://www.woodpeck.com/mortisematch.html

[k...@notreal.com]

On Mon, 18 Jul 2022 10:00:09 -0500, Leon <lcb11211@swbelldotnet>
wrote:

I've seen that but it seems like a better place to put the money would
a good down payment on a DominoXL.

I want to see how they're going to get the fifth piece of the pentagon
into place without bunging up the mortises.

[DerbyDad03]

On Monday, July 18, 2022 at 11:00:19 AM UTC-4, Leon wrote:
> Jumping on the Festool Domino gravy train.
>
> $299.00
>
>
> https://www.leevalley.com/en-us/shop/tools/power-tool-accessories/114883-veritas-domino-joinery-table

I'm clueless here, so I'll ask: Do you agree with this statement?

"While the Festool Domino DF 500 is excellent for a wide range of
joinery, it can be difficult to register correctly on narrow pieces."

Is that the problem that your "one oversized mortise" technique solves?

[k...@notreal.com]

On Mon, 18 Jul 2022 18:06:11 -0700 (PDT), DerbyDad03
<teama...@eznet.net> wrote:

>On Monday, July 18, 2022 at 11:00:19 AM UTC-4, Leon wrote:
>> Jumping on the Festool Domino gravy train.
>>
>> $299.00
>>
>>
>> https://www.leevalley.com/en-us/shop/tools/power-tool-accessories/114883-veritas-domino-joinery-table
>
>I'm clueless here, so I'll ask: Do you agree with this statement?
>
>"While the Festool Domino DF 500 is excellent for a wide range of
>joinery, it can be difficult to register correctly on narrow pieces."

The "trim stop" centers mortises on narrow stock but it is limited to
90degrees (the end of rectangular stock).

[Bill]

Be glad you're not into "fly fishing" (actually I am and I like it). You
can spend upwards of $1500 or more for a fly rod ("fishing rod"). Reel
and line extra. Line itself can be $129. I think they figured that
you're going to spend hundreds if not thousands on your vacations, and
spending a little more on your gear will mostly go unnoticed to you. I
currently use gear made in the 1970's (Fenwick brand rods). I actually
used to sell that stuff back then as a salesperson, but didn't then have
the budget for it. In recent years I upgraded my gear to that via ebay.
I think I did pay maybe $160 for one of my rods, but not $800, $1200,
$1500.... I think I could get a person interested in learning about fly
fishing ready to go for under $100, but the novice will never encounter
that point of view at a fly shop. Incidentally, the "virus" virtually
doubled the price of vintage gear on ebay, and made affordable small
boat and trailers scarce as hens teeth (suppy shortage for the boats and
trailers).

[k...@notreal.com]

I agree that if it's your hobby and can fit it into the budget,
hobbies don't have to be justified but it's not so much as the amount
of money, rather the silly and unnecessary product at the absurd
price. The Domino machine is expensive ($1000) but these "joinery
stations" for similar money are nuts.

[Leon]

On 7/18/2022 4:46 PM, k...@notreal.com wrote:
> On Mon, 18 Jul 2022 10:00:09 -0500, Leon <lcb11211@swbelldotnet>
> wrote:
>
>>
>> Jumping on the Festool Domino gravy train.
>>
>> $299.00
>>
>>
>> https://www.leevalley.com/en-us/shop/tools/power-tool-accessories/114883-veritas-domino-joinery-table?item=05J1701&utm_campaign=222844_JULY18-wood-VeritasDominoTable-US&utm_medium=email&utm_source=Lee+Valley&dm_i=6EER%2C4RY4%2C12QOS9%2CN8AU%2C1
>>
>>
>>
>> And for 2.3 times more money,
>>
>> https://www.woodpeck.com/mortisematch.html
>
> I've seen that but it seems like a better place to put the money would
> a good down payment on a DominoXL.

Well the XL covers all of the ranges for Domino's but do you build heavy
doors or large conference tables?

My Domino 500 is 14 years old now. Wow! I was interested in the XL
until I saw it up close and picked it up.
IMHO it is way freaking heavy and too large to use as easily as the 500.
The 500 gets heavy after a hundred or so mortises. And if you spend
that much money you want to use it a lot. I have literally used my 500,
10 times more than both of my previous biscuit joiners combined. I
would say that unless you are building things bigger and heavier than
furniture that the 500 would suite 98% of your needs. Just saying.
Now if you "just want" the XL there is no problem with that from me. I
just wanted you to know that unless you are going to do a lot of BIG
stuff the 500 would likely be just fine.

I will say that in late 2007 I just wanted the 500 and thought of how I
could use it. I had no idea how much I would actually use it. I have
said this before going, back 3~5 years ago, I have cut in excess of
10,000 mortises with just the 5mm bit alone. Besides the 600, 5mm
dominos that came in the assortment I have purchased 3 cases of 1,800, 5
mm dominos.

>
> I want to see how they're going to get the fifth piece of the pentagon
> into place without bunging up the mortises.

?

[Leon]

On 7/18/2022 8:06 PM, DerbyDad03 wrote:
> On Monday, July 18, 2022 at 11:00:19 AM UTC-4, Leon wrote:
>> Jumping on the Festool Domino gravy train.
>>
>> $299.00
>>
>>
>> https://www.leevalley.com/en-us/shop/tools/power-tool-accessories/114883-veritas-domino-joinery-table
>
> I'm clueless here, so I'll ask: Do you agree with this statement?
>
> "While the Festool Domino DF 500 is excellent for a wide range of
> joinery, it can be difficult to register correctly on narrow pieces."

I think these after market tools are aimed at those that will buy
anything, and have no real experience.

There is no issue with registering on narrow pieces any more than with a
biscuit joiner. In fact the bigger kit, that you can get with the
domino, it has a centering attachment that attaches to the flip down
fence and accomplishes almost the same for 90 degree cuts. Now narrow
picture frame stock may be more difficult but I build furniture and
never have an issue with alignment.

>
> Is that the problem that your "one oversized mortise" technique solves?

I think so. ALTHOUGH very narrow and or moldings would be more
difficult to cut at all unless registering off the flat back side.

[Leon]

On 7/18/2022 10:35 PM, Bill wrote:
> On 7/18/2022 11:00 AM, Leon wrote:
>>
>> Jumping on the Festool Domino gravy train.
>>
>> $299.00
>>
>>
>> https://www.leevalley.com/en-us/shop/tools/power-tool-accessories/114883-veritas-domino-joinery-table?item=05J1701&utm_campaign=222844_JULY18-wood-VeritasDominoTable-US&utm_medium=email&utm_source=Lee+Valley&dm_i=6EER%2C4RY4%2C12QOS9%2CN8AU%2C1
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> And for 2.3 times more money,
>>
>> https://www.woodpeck.com/mortisematch.html
>
> Be glad you're not into "fly fishing" (actually I am and I like it). You
> can spend upwards of $1500 or more for a fly rod ("fishing rod").  Reel
> and line extra.  Line itself can be $129.

You mean like $4500 on Festools, $5000 on a ICS SawStop TS, $4000 band
saw, $2500 Shaper Origin. $5600 Jointer/Planer, the list goes on.

I think they figured that
> you're going to spend hundreds if not thousands on your vacations, and
> spending a little more on your gear will mostly go unnoticed to you. I
> currently use gear made in the 1970's (Fenwick brand rods). I actually
> used to sell that stuff back then as a salesperson, but didn't then have
> the budget for it. In recent years I upgraded my gear to that via ebay.
> I think I did pay maybe $160 for one of my rods, but not $800, $1200,
> $1500....  I think I could get a person interested in learning about fly
> fishing ready to go for under $100, but the novice will never encounter
> that point of view at a fly shop. Incidentally, the "virus" virtually
> doubled the price of vintage gear on ebay, and made affordable small
> boat and trailers scarce as hens teeth (suppy shortage for the boats and
> trailers).

In a lot of cases it is not a just supply vs demand issue. We are
seeing a lot of that because of supply chain issues. Gasoline on the
other hand falls under 2 categories, supply and demand, what happened
when Biden took office and suddenly the US is no longer a net + producer
of oil, and then there is "what the market will bear". In this case
Shell gasoline near me is $3.89 per gallon. 3 miles away a Shell
station is at $4.29 per gallon. And 8 miles away $3.69 per gallon.
That is not a supply problem so much as what the local market will bear.

[Leon]

Absolutely!!! It is your money and if you can afford it you do not
have to justify it.

But I still try to justify. I absolutely do not need a new router
table set up. But a new one would be nice.

I just saw an electronic lift AND fence. Not available at this time but
New Wave, Shark CNC, makes/made it.

[k...@notreal.com]

On Tue, 19 Jul 2022 10:42:19 -0500, Leon <lcb11211@swbelldotnet>
wrote:

>On 7/18/2022 4:46 PM, k...@notreal.com wrote:
>> On Mon, 18 Jul 2022 10:00:09 -0500, Leon <lcb11211@swbelldotnet>
>> wrote:
>>
>>>
>>> Jumping on the Festool Domino gravy train.
>>>
>>> $299.00
>>>
>>>
>>> https://www.leevalley.com/en-us/shop/tools/power-tool-accessories/114883-veritas-domino-joinery-table?item=05J1701&utm_campaign=222844_JULY18-wood-VeritasDominoTable-US&utm_medium=email&utm_source=Lee+Valley&dm_i=6EER%2C4RY4%2C12QOS9%2CN8AU%2C1
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> And for 2.3 times more money,
>>>
>>> https://www.woodpeck.com/mortisematch.html
>>
>> I've seen that but it seems like a better place to put the money would
>> a good down payment on a DominoXL.
>
>Well the XL covers all of the ranges for Domino's but do you build heavy
>doors or large conference tables?

Use two Dominos.

>
>My Domino 500 is 14 years old now. Wow! I was interested in the XL
>until I saw it up close and picked it up.

Exactly. The Domino is heavy enough.

>IMHO it is way freaking heavy and too large to use as easily as the 500.
> The 500 gets heavy after a hundred or so mortises.

IMO, the DF500 should have better ergonomics. A handle in the back,
perhaps sideways would go a long way. I don't like barrel-grip saber
saws, so perhaps it's just me.

>And if you spend
>that much money you want to use it a lot. I have literally used my 500,
>10 times more than both of my previous biscuit joiners combined.

I used my PC biscuit jointer exactly once. I hated the thing. It's
supposed to be one of the better ones but it's junk. Perhaps mine is
defective but there was no way to align anything with it.

[k...@notreal.com]

On Tue, 19 Jul 2022 15:54:28 -0500, Leon <lcb11211@swbelldotnet>
wrote:

I've seen many of those over the years. I always thought "that's
neat, but why?". IIRC, JessEm had one at one time. They just have
the table with a height adjustment crank on the end. Again, why?

[k...@notreal.com]

On Tue, 19 Jul 2022 15:40:44 -0500, Leon <lcb11211@swbelldotnet>
wrote:

>On 7/18/2022 10:35 PM, Bill wrote:
>> On 7/18/2022 11:00 AM, Leon wrote:
>>>
>>> Jumping on the Festool Domino gravy train.
>>>
>>> $299.00
>>>
>>>
>>> https://www.leevalley.com/en-us/shop/tools/power-tool-accessories/114883-veritas-domino-joinery-table?item=05J1701&utm_campaign=222844_JULY18-wood-VeritasDominoTable-US&utm_medium=email&utm_source=Lee+Valley&dm_i=6EER%2C4RY4%2C12QOS9%2CN8AU%2C1
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> And for 2.3 times more money,
>>>
>>> https://www.woodpeck.com/mortisematch.html
>>
>> Be glad you're not into "fly fishing" (actually I am and I like it). You
>> can spend upwards of $1500 or more for a fly rod ("fishing rod").  Reel
>> and line extra.  Line itself can be $129.
>
>You mean like $4500 on Festools, $5000 on a ICS SawStop TS, $4000 band
>saw, $2500 Shaper Origin. $5600 Jointer/Planer, the list goes on.

Like that.

>
>
> I think they figured that
>> you're going to spend hundreds if not thousands on your vacations, and
>> spending a little more on your gear will mostly go unnoticed to you. I
>> currently use gear made in the 1970's (Fenwick brand rods). I actually
>> used to sell that stuff back then as a salesperson, but didn't then have
>> the budget for it. In recent years I upgraded my gear to that via ebay.
>> I think I did pay maybe $160 for one of my rods, but not $800, $1200,
>> $1500....  I think I could get a person interested in learning about fly
>> fishing ready to go for under $100, but the novice will never encounter
>> that point of view at a fly shop. Incidentally, the "virus" virtually
>> doubled the price of vintage gear on ebay, and made affordable small
>> boat and trailers scarce as hens teeth (suppy shortage for the boats and
>> trailers).
>
>
>In a lot of cases it is not a just supply vs demand issue. We are
>seeing a lot of that because of supply chain issues. Gasoline on the
>other hand falls under 2 categories, supply and demand, what happened
>when Biden took office and suddenly the US is no longer a net + producer
>of oil, and then there is "what the market will bear". In this case
>Shell gasoline near me is $3.89 per gallon. 3 miles away a Shell
>station is at $4.29 per gallon. And 8 miles away $3.69 per gallon.
>That is not a supply problem so much as what the local market will bear.

I paid $3.46 yesterday at Sam's, with another $.17 off for using their
MasterCard (the card works anywhere).

[Leon]

The electronic fence would work like the Incra fancy fence with the
massive cursor lock mechanism. So moving the fence to cut spaced DT's
or box joint tails would be quick and accurate. And that is about it,
although grooves and dados can be programed to cut any size larger than
the bit with out the bit being the correct size. Tell the fence wher the
dado should be and what size bit is in the router. Something like The
Shaper Origin.



I looked at the JessEm table wit the side crank. And the mechanism is
the Mast-R-Lift. The only advantage I see is that each crank is 1/8"
instead of 1/32, faster? Disadvantage is no 1/001" dial indicator and
if the table broke the lift probably does not come off. You would have
to use a Wixey style electronic measure. And that may not be a bad
idea anyway.

[Leon]

I mostly only use Shell, I want the additives and detergents. I use a
Mastercard that gives me back 2% on all purchases so I use it for
everything. Then Shell gives me 10 cents back when I use my Kroger points.

[k...@notreal.com]

On Tue, 19 Jul 2022 17:32:01 -0500, Leon <lcb11211@swbelldotnet>

Isn't that just a bit of overkill just to cut a groove?

>
>
>
>I looked at the JessEm table wit the side crank. And the mechanism is
>the Mast-R-Lift. The only advantage I see is that each crank is 1/8"
>instead of 1/32, faster? Disadvantage is no 1/001" dial indicator and
>if the table broke the lift probably does not come off. You would have
>to use a Wixey style electronic measure. And that may not be a bad
>idea anyway.

I'm not a big fan of Wixey, though I did put one on my planer
yesterday. I bought it some time back. The installation looked pretty
hokey so never put it on. I was right. The installation is hokey.
Double-stick tape just doesn't seem right. Well see how useful it is
and how long it lasts. They seem to work but they're really cheaply
made.

I bought their table saw fence gauge a little over ten years ago (I
was in my previous house so can date it somewhat). It was OK but the
head kept dying and it was a battery killer. I gave up on it but I
haven't taken the rail off because it's not in the way. Yet.

[k...@notreal.com]

On Tue, 19 Jul 2022 17:36:56 -0500, Leon <lcb11211@swbelldotnet>

We use the Kroger points and the 5% Sam's MasterCard still works. You
can't beat the Sam's card for gas. Costco's Visa is 4%.

[Bill]

On 7/19/2022 4:40 PM, Leon wrote:

> In a lot of cases it is not a just supply vs demand issue.   We are
> seeing a lot of that because of supply chain issues.  Gasoline on the
> other hand falls under 2 categories,   supply and demand, what happened
> when Biden took office and suddenly the US is no longer a net + producer
> of oil, and then there is "what the market will bear".   In this case
> Shell gasoline near me is $3.89 per gallon.   3 miles away a Shell
> station is at $4.29 per gallon.    And 8 miles away $3.69 per gallon.
> That is not a supply problem so much as what the local market will bear.

Evidently the market will bear $4.46 here in the midwest today, and that
is down from about $4.85. ! You are fortunate with those prices! : )

[Leon]

Absolutely, I cut those on my TS anyway, much faster.

But it would be handy for cutting DT Joints.

>>
>>
>>
>> I looked at the JessEm table wit the side crank. And the mechanism is
>> the Mast-R-Lift. The only advantage I see is that each crank is 1/8"
>> instead of 1/32, faster? Disadvantage is no 1/001" dial indicator and
>> if the table broke the lift probably does not come off. You would have
>> to use a Wixey style electronic measure. And that may not be a bad
>> idea anyway.
>
> I'm not a big fan of Wixey, though I did put one on my planer
> yesterday. I bought it some time back. The installation looked pretty
> hokey so never put it on. I was right. The installation is hokey.
> Double-stick tape just doesn't seem right. Well see how useful it is
> and how long it lasts. They seem to work but they're really cheaply
> made.

I added a Wixey to my jointer/planer combo machine. It is fixed to he
steel cabinet and attaches to the planer table via rare earth magnet to
move the sensor up and down. Works great, IIRC it uses AAA batteries
too. I had a Wixey on my Delta 15" planer and it sucked at best.

>
> I bought their table saw fence gauge a little over ten years ago (I
> was in my previous house so can date it somewhat). It was OK but the
> head kept dying and it was a battery killer. I gave up on it but I
> haven't taken the rail off because it's not in the way. Yet.

Good to know. I have no trouble reading the rule on my fence front bar.

[k...@notreal.com]

Some of that is the state gas tax. TX is #39 for tax at $.20/gal. AK
is #50 at $.124 and NJ at $.145. At the other end are CA, NY and CT at
around $.50/gal.

GA has a tax "holiday" while the prices are high so, at least in
theory, our prices reflect that. The state has a large surplus so
everyone who paid tax last year (and the year before?), got a $500
check and there is enough left over to cover the shortfall from the
gas tax holiday.

[Puckdropper]

k...@notreal.com wrote in
news:q3jedhpl7p6t2j4un...@4ax.com:

>
> We use the Kroger points and the 5% Sam's MasterCard still works. You
> can't beat the Sam's card for gas. Costco's Visa is 4%.
>

Is Sam's time limited? Citi/Costco was for the first year only.

Puckdropper

[Bob Davis]

If you cost out those big purchases on a per use basis, the Sawstop may be the cheapest tool in your whole shop.

[k...@notreal.com]

On Thu, 21 Jul 2022 09:28:41 GMT, Puckdropper <puckd...@yahoo.com>
wrote:

No. I've had their card for several years. In addition, some months
they have special deals. In April it was 10% anywhere on Tuesdays (I
happened to be coming home from Ohio on a Tuesday. In June it was 10%
on Saturdays only at Sam's.

I didn't know Costco was a teaser. I was a member for a year when
they first opened here (across the street from Sam's) but we never
bought anything there so dropped our membership.

[k...@notreal.com]

Huh? That one flew over my head. Cost increase? I guess you haven't
been looking at tool prices. They haven't doubled but My jointer's
price increased $700 from the time I bought it in June (they weren't
shipping yet) to when I received it in October. I think the dust
collectors went up $1000. All of Laguna's tools have increased like
that. Jet had a similar, if not larger, increase. Tools haven't gone
up 100% during the Bidden administration, as gas has.

OTOH, if you look at lifetime cost, % increase, or any other measure,
gas has them all beat. Festool had a 5% increase but it's an outlier.
It wouldn't surprise me if they had a second, larger, increase this
year.

[Leon]

All of my stuff has paid for itself. But the Domino may be better in
return. 7 cents per plunge as of about 4 years ago. ;~) Plus the cost
of about 4 cents per Domino tenon bought in bulk.

[Leon]

Yes tools have gone up I Ordered a 12" Jet jointer/planer combo at
Thanksgiving 2020 and paid $3600 with the 15% sale. It was delivered in
January of last year.

Currently $5600, Two thousand dollars more.

>
> OTOH, if you look at lifetime cost, % increase, or any other measure,
> gas has them all beat. Festool had a 5% increase but it's an outlier.
> It wouldn't surprise me if they had a second, larger, increase this
> year.

I have noticed that Festool's price change/increase is sometimes, on
some items, a price drop. Go figure.

[Bob Davis]

I think my point must have been obscure. Its not about % increase or inflation. I've invested in several big purchases like Leon. The sawstop industrial saw was my first really big purchase and I had to think long and hard about it. I use it multiple times on every project. I've tripped the brake cartridge 3 times. I have never had to adjust it. In terms of safety and use for my hobby it is off the charts in value to me. I would gladly buy it again, no matter what the price.

Bob

[k...@notreal.com]

On Thu, 21 Jul 2022 08:40:48 -0700 (PDT), Bob Davis

Y\I was thinking about what you wrote and I see where you were going.
If a SawStop is a huge investment considering the time use, it was
still twice what my Unisaw cost, or a Harvey or Laguna today.

Safety is another, unquantifiable, matter. I'm not going $4-5000 on a
new saw (that is so seldom used ;-) when I have a perfectly
serviceable saw.

[Leon]

Absolutely. While the 3 of us can most likely afford what ever we want,
we did not get to where we are today by poofing away money while getting
here. Some kind of justification is hard wired into us.

[Bob Davis]

I did not have such a tough decision. I was not replacing a Unisaw. I was replacing a much lesser Jet hybrid saw.

[k...@notreal.com]

On Fri, 22 Jul 2022 19:45:14 -0700 (PDT), Bob Davis

It's still twice the price ($4-5000) of the competition. Powermatic
is up there too but all of their stuff is stupidly expensive.

[Leon]

BUT if you start with the SS that is most comparable to the Unisaw, the
Professional with 50" rip and 3hp motor, that saw starts at $3,675.00
Was you Unisaw less than $2K?

I forget what the pricing was back then. IIRC my similar Jet was about
$1800 ish in 2000.

Today the "new" Unisaw goes for $5K for 52" but you save $1K for 16"
inches shorter capacity.... WOW SS charges $100 for the extra length.

Powermatic with 50" $5525 and $4899 for 36"

The ICS SS is $4825 with 52" and $4715 for 36"

SS has pretty much not gone up too much in the past 9 years. Wow I
have had this saw 9 years. Just over 9 years ago I paid $4509
including tax for the 52"


Not trying to sell you just pointing out todays pricing "if" someone was
in the market.

[k...@notreal.com]

On Sat, 23 Jul 2022 08:23:44 -0500, Leon <lcb11211@swbelldotnet>
wrote:

$1600 (36-L31X). That was ten years ago but the equivalent SawStop
was just over $3K at the time. We talked about it here but $3K was a
bridge too far at the time.

>I forget what the pricing was back then. IIRC my similar Jet was about
>$1800 ish in 2000.

This was probably 2009.

>Today the "new" Unisaw goes for $5K for 52" but you save $1K for 16"
>inches shorter capacity.... WOW SS charges $100 for the extra length.

It's a piece of melamine, it's it?

>Powermatic with 50" $5525 and $4899 for 36"

Like I said, Powermatic is stupidly expensive, across the board.

>The ICS SS is $4825 with 52" and $4715 for 36"

The $5K end of my range.

>
>SS has pretty much not gone up too much in the past 9 years. Wow I
>have had this saw 9 years. Just over 9 years ago I paid $4509
>including tax for the 52"
>
>
>Not trying to sell you just pointing out todays pricing "if" someone was
>in the market.

Now, price a Laguna or Harvey.

[Bob Davis]

I was getting tired of this discussion but I have to respond. I keep seeing generalized comparisons between apple and oranges and pears. None of the saws mentioned compares to a Sawstop Industrial cabinet saw (ICS). It is bigger and heavier (aka massive 685lb). Here is what I consider apples to apples priced today (July 23, 2022)

All saws are 52", 3 hp

Delta unisaw $5043.20
Sawstop PCS $4857.00
Laguna $2999.00
Harvey $2499.00 (I really consider this an unknown brand)

Bob

[DerbyDad03]

Apparently they are "new" to the North American market, at least as being
a known name. I haven't dug into for whom they acted as an "OEM supplier".

https://www.harveywoodworking.com/pages/about-us-1

"Harvey Industries, established in 1999, was formed on the principles of
uniquely designed products and constant improvements in quality.
Based on these principals, Harvey Industries has succeeded in supplying
woodworking machinery and accessories to over 100 countries. The
Harvey brand is known in woodworking markets everywhere except
North America where we have, until recently, operated as an OEM
supplier to many of the well known US machinery brands.

Our products span the market from general purpose saws, shapers
and lathes up through digitally controlled sliding table saws and spindle
moulders. Our 200 employees throughout the world strive to bring you t
he best and most innovative pieces of machinery without compromise."

[k...@notreal.com]

On Sat, 23 Jul 2022 11:14:01 -0700 (PDT), Bob Davis

OK, now we're talking about the $5,000 end of my range, above.

>All saws are 52", 3 hp

>Delta unisaw $5043.20
>Sawstop PCS $4857.00
>Laguna $2999.00
>Harvey $2499.00 (I really consider this an unknown brand)

From all reports, the Harvey is very good.

Again, we're talking 2X. The new Unisaw, like the Powermatic, is
stupid expensive. I wouldn't buy anything made by Delta anymore and
PowerMatic thinks too much of itself, across all product lines.

If I had to choose between the three (SawStop, Unisaw, or PowerMatic),
the SawStop would be the obvious choice. Otherwise, likely the
Laguna. I have a bit of experience with Laguna and I'm happy with
their quality. Meanwhile I _have_ the older model Unisaw and that was
half the price of the SawStop at the time.

[Leon]

Understood and timing is everything.

>
>> I forget what the pricing was back then. IIRC my similar Jet was about
>> $1800 ish in 2000.
>
> This was probably 2009.
>
>> Today the "new" Unisaw goes for $5K for 52" but you save $1K for 16"
>> inches shorter capacity.... WOW SS charges $100 for the extra length.
>
> It's a piece of melamine, it's it?

Pretty much and about 30" front and back for the rails plus 16" more
tape measure. ;~)

Another case of what the market will bare. It only costs us $25 more
for those 16" but our customer wants 50" and we can bump the price up to
the competition price and make an extra $600~700.

Hind site, if only we has bought into SS's offer to license the
technology we might still be relevant today. The last time I recall
seeing a Unisaw on a show room floor was when I was shopping form my SS,
9 years ago.

>
>> Powermatic with 50" $5525 and $4899 for 36"
>
> Like I said, Powermatic is stupidly expensive, across the board.

I think because it was the GOLD standard for being the ultimate USA made
machine it still has the draw. And maybe with the backing of the
company that owns Jet and Wilton.

>
>> The ICS SS is $4825 with 52" and $4715 for 36"
>
> The $5K end of my range.
>>
>> SS has pretty much not gone up too much in the past 9 years. Wow I
>> have had this saw 9 years. Just over 9 years ago I paid $4509
>> including tax for the 52"
>>
>>
>> Not trying to sell you just pointing out todays pricing "if" someone was
>> in the market.
>
> Now, price a Laguna or Harvey.

Well price a Laguna that is not built in Taiwan, in other words look at
the Laguna TS that does not look like an American copy cat.

The European built Laguna was a bit more expensive than the SS 9 years
ago. They had and continue to have the Fusion series, made in Taiwan.
Not that that is a bad thing.

The one I was looking at was European and I was specifically looking at
having a scoring blade added to the saw. When I talked With Laguna the
sales guy indicated that if I wanted an up grade from the Jet Exacta
cabinet saw that I should avoid the Fusion line of saws. I think he
was indicatio9n that it would be a lateral move. And it being an
American style saw it would not have any more features, like a scoring
blade, than my Jet except maybe the riving knife.

And ultimately my Jet was fine and I did not need to upgrade. My whole
point to get another saw was from a safety stand point so I decided SS
or keep the Jet. SS too advised me that if I wanted an upgrade over
the Jet to go the ICS series, the original, over the Professional series.

[Leon]

IMHO Delta should have bought into the license agreement to have the SS
technology instead of the cost to develop the new Unisaw that never had
a chance. Unfortunately today's Delta seems to be competitive with Ryobi.

Harvey was a maker of parts for machines IIRC. They decided to get
into marketing their parts into their own brand. I think the Harvey is
probably a solid saw but I think that there need to be some tweaks for
it to move to one of those brands at the head of the class. Their
included miter gauge is a beauty but has issues, pointed out by the
WoodWhisperer. His findings are the same as mine when I was shopping
for a replacement miter gauge. My Kreg had and continues to have the
same issues and so does the Osbourn triangle miter gauge. Osbourne
miter gauges sell for almost half of what they were going for 8~9 years
ago.,

[Leon]

Harvey also acquired Bridge City Tools a few years back.

[k...@notreal.com]

On Sun, 24 Jul 2022 10:00:47 -0500, Leon <lcb11211@swbelldotnet>

Everyone else does the same. Probably more so. The other like issue
is the motor. A 3HP motor doesn't cost all that much more than a
1-1/2HP motor.

>
>Hind site, if only we has bought into SS's offer to license the
>technology we might still be relevant today. The last time I recall
>seeing a Unisaw on a show room floor was when I was shopping form my SS,
>9 years ago.
>

I don't think so. Delta screwed up the company all on their own. I
have a Delta DP (18-900L) that's becoming hard to get parts for too.
Fortunately the parts I've needed are pretty standard.

>>> Powermatic with 50" $5525 and $4899 for 36"
>>
>> Like I said, Powermatic is stupidly expensive, across the board.
>
>I think because it was the GOLD standard for being the ultimate USA made
>machine it still has the draw. And maybe with the backing of the
>company that owns Jet and Wilton.

No wonder they're so ugly. I don't mind Taiwanese tools. China is
much more iffy. I wouldn't buy Chinese stationary tools, as long as
there was another option.

>
>>
>>> The ICS SS is $4825 with 52" and $4715 for 36"
>>
>> The $5K end of my range.
>>>
>>> SS has pretty much not gone up too much in the past 9 years. Wow I
>>> have had this saw 9 years. Just over 9 years ago I paid $4509
>>> including tax for the 52"
>>>
>>>
>>> Not trying to sell you just pointing out todays pricing "if" someone was
>>> in the market.
>>
>> Now, price a Laguna or Harvey.
>
>Well price a Laguna that is not built in Taiwan, in other words look at
>the Laguna TS that does not look like an American copy cat.

Again, nothing wrong with Taiwan. BTW, Laguna is a US company. It's
all imported from wherever and the Laguna name is stamped on it.

>The European built Laguna was a bit more expensive than the SS 9 years
>ago. They had and continue to have the Fusion series, made in Taiwan.
> Not that that is a bad thing.

Exactly. If you want to pay double for Italian, or US for that matter,
made tools, go for it.

>The one I was looking at was European and I was specifically looking at
>having a scoring blade added to the saw. When I talked With Laguna the
>sales guy indicated that if I wanted an up grade from the Jet Exacta
>cabinet saw that I should avoid the Fusion line of saws. I think he
>was indicatio9n that it would be a lateral move. And it being an
>American style saw it would not have any more features, like a scoring
>blade, than my Jet except maybe the riving knife.

I understand that the new F3 is a very nice saw. I don't know all of
the details because I'm not in the market for a saw.

>
>And ultimately my Jet was fine and I did not need to upgrade. My whole
>point to get another saw was from a safety stand point so I decided SS
>or keep the Jet. SS too advised me that if I wanted an upgrade over
>the Jet to go the ICS series, the original, over the Professional series.
>

I tend to agree. The "Professional" doesn't look all that impressive,
as a saw (ignoring the safety feature). The Jobsite saw is incredibly
expensive for what it is. OK, a contractor needs insurance and all
that but still...

[Leon]

Yeah, named after Laguna Beach where the founder used to surf.

>
>> The European built Laguna was a bit more expensive than the SS 9 years
>> ago. They had and continue to have the Fusion series, made in Taiwan.
>> Not that that is a bad thing.
>
> Exactly. If you want to pay double for Italian, or US for that matter,
> made tools, go for it.

I find that the European models have different and more interesting
offerings. IIRC when I bought the Laguna "Band Saw" they did not offer
the lesser brands. I was mostly interested in the ceramic guide system
that they have.

>
>> The one I was looking at was European and I was specifically looking at
>> having a scoring blade added to the saw. When I talked With Laguna the
>> sales guy indicated that if I wanted an up grade from the Jet Exacta
>> cabinet saw that I should avoid the Fusion line of saws. I think he
>> was indicatio9n that it would be a lateral move. And it being an
>> American style saw it would not have any more features, like a scoring
>> blade, than my Jet except maybe the riving knife.
>
> I understand that the new F3 is a very nice saw. I don't know all of
> the details because I'm not in the market for a saw.

I was just looking! It or one like it along with General of Canada,
not General International seem to be adding automation. IIRC blade
automated blade tilt, height, and fence adjustment.

Seems General is making a comeback. I saw the automated fence at the
last WW show that I went to about a year ago.

>>
>> And ultimately my Jet was fine and I did not need to upgrade. My whole
>> point to get another saw was from a safety stand point so I decided SS
>> or keep the Jet. SS too advised me that if I wanted an upgrade over
>> the Jet to go the ICS series, the original, over the Professional series.
>>
> I tend to agree. The "Professional" doesn't look all that impressive,
> as a saw (ignoring the safety feature). The Jobsite saw is incredibly
> expensive for what it is. OK, a contractor needs insurance and all
> that but still...

Well now/soon there is a bench top version for about $899. Absolutely
too small for me but looks like it could be more easily used on the job
site.