Denatured alcohol vs. Methyl hydrate
MikeE
I've been trying to figure out *precisely* what the difference is
between denatured alcohol and methyl hydrate. This is what I've found:
Denatured alcohol:
- also called "denatured ethanol", or "denatured grain alcohol"
- ethyl alcohol that has had other "denaturing" (read: poison it so
some dumbass won't drink it) agents added, typically methyl alcohol
Methyl hydrate:
- also called "methanol", or "wood alcohol"
- used as gas line antifreeze
I have been using methyl hydrate to cut shellac, and the results seem
to be fine. Theoretically, denatured alcohol and mehtyl hydrate do the
same thing... act as a solvect for the shellac resin. What I would
like to know is whether or not the end result the same. Does shellac
in denatured alcohol behave differently from shellac in methyl
hydrate? How, if at all, does this affect the finish?
--MikeE
Ken Muldrew
>I have been using methyl hydrate to cut shellac, and the results seem
>to be fine. Theoretically, denatured alcohol and mehtyl hydrate do the
>same thing... act as a solvect for the shellac resin. What I would
>like to know is whether or not the end result the same. Does shellac
>in denatured alcohol behave differently from shellac in methyl
>hydrate? How, if at all, does this affect the finish?
Methanol evaporates a lot faster so it will make a difference for
brushing. Also, skin contact with pure methanol is a lot worse than
skin contact with denatured ethanol (this won't affect the finish
directly, but after you're poisoned, you won't be able to put as much
care into the finish).
I, and others, have had problems using shellac dissolved in methanol
as a finish over veneer that was ironed down after applying PVA glue.
The veneer blisters in many places when the finish is applied (but the
release of the glue does not happen without the application of the
finish). I don't know if this is related to the solvent or the shellac
but it is an unpleasant occurrence.
Ken Muldrew
kmul...@ucalgary.ca
Joel Jacobson
results seem to be fine. Theoretically, denatured alcohol
for the shellac resin. What I would like to know is whether
or not the end result the same
Methanol is toxic, very toxic. You're better off not
breathing the fumes.
Joel Jacobson
Wayne Weber
rubbery-if you dissolve it and keep it in methanol. The reason is the
reaction to make the rubbery stuff is esterification which happens much more
quickly with methanol than with ethanol, although the methanol used to
denature the ethanol will also contribute to this, but since it's
concentration is much lower it won't happen as quickly.
--
Wayne Weber
"MikeE" <mwe...@rogers.com> wrote in message
news:683919cd.02051...@posting.google.com...
mike hide
often wondered if methanol or methyl hydrate are one of the same ...mjh
"brocpuffs" <broc...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:hsl3eusf4vhp07ddb...@4ax.com...
> On 14 May 2002 12:38:45 -0700, mwe...@rogers.com (MikeE) wrote:
>
> >Ok Wreckers... time to put on your chemist's hat.
> >
> >I've been trying to figure out *precisely* what the difference is
> >between denatured alcohol and methyl hydrate. This is what I've found:
> >
> >Denatured alcohol:
> >- also called "denatured ethanol", or "denatured grain alcohol"
> >- ethyl alcohol that has had other "denaturing" (read: poison it so
> >some dumbass won't drink it) agents added, typically methyl alcohol
> >
> >Methyl hydrate:
> >- also called "methanol", or "wood alcohol"
> >- used as gas line antifreeze
>
> That's about it, man. methyl hydrate IS methyl alcohol or methanol.
> AFAIK, the "hydrate" part of the name refers to a certain amount of
> water that methyl (as well as ethyl) alcohols like to hold on to. The
> alternate is "anhydrous ethanol" or "anhydrous methanol" which have no
> water in them. They will quickly absorb water from the air, though.
> They cost somewhat more, too.
>
>
> >I have been using methyl hydrate to cut shellac, and the results seem
> >to be fine. Theoretically, denatured alcohol and mehtyl hydrate do the
> >same thing... act as a solvect for the shellac resin. What I would
> >like to know is whether or not the end result the same. Does shellac
> >in denatured alcohol behave differently from shellac in methyl
> >hydrate? How, if at all, does this affect the finish?
>
> Well, methyl alcohol is more volatile than ethyl, so it will evaporate
> quickly. It's theoretically not as good a solvent as ethyl, because
> the methyl is "more like water" than ethanol. A very little. Doesn't
> matter with shellac.
>
> BUT methyl alcohol is pretty toxic, that's why ethyl alcohol is
> denatured by adding methanol. Blindness can result from ingestion of
> fairly small amounts of methanol
>
> So I think you should really use ethanol instead of methanol-
>
> James
> jcan...@rochester.rr.com
>
>
Laurie Rose
> In the UK "methelated spirits" is used as a solvent for shellac ,I have
> often wondered if methanol or methyl hydrate are one of the same ...mjh
>
Methylated spirits is mostly ethanol. Some 5% methanol, plus purple
dye and a trace of pyridine which give it that characteristic smell,
are added for tax reasons - here at least where alcohol duty is very
high.
Methanol is poisonous because the body breaks it down into
formaldehyde. Curiously the antidote is ethanol (gin, vodka, whatever)
which competes with the enzyme.
Donald Cranstone
Methanol (=methyl alcohol, wood alcohol,or methyl hydrate - all four
refer to the same chemical substance) is quite toxic, not only when
you drink it, but also when you breath its fumes, so that it is not
something you want to use in a poorly ventilated area. Denatured
alcohol is chiefly ethanol, the same alcohol as in beer, wine and
liquor, except that the denatured kind of ethanol is frequently made
from ethane, one of the components of natural gas as it comes out of
the ground, rather than from plant material. Natural gas is chiefly
methane, from which methanol can be produced. Methanol is one of the
substances that is used denature the ethanol, so that it can't be
drunk, but as the percentage is much lower than pure methanol,
denatured alcohol is considerably safer to work with than pure
methanol.
Don
S. Peacock
the same stuff). Most drying times and finishing techniques expect you
to be using the ethanol based liquid, rather than methanol based
solvents.
Infrequently I've seen specific reference to use of methanol rather than
ethanol. That was for achieving a special affect.
-- Everything you didn't (probably) need to know about
anything...follows:
Alcohol is 'made' by replacing a carbon-hydrogen bond with a combined
molecule of oxygen and hydrogen (OH) bonded to the carbon.
Methane = CH4 a gas (sometimes evident following a meal that includes
beans)
Methanol = CH3(OH) Also known as wood alcohol, wood sprits. It used
to be made by heating wood to a high temperature and extracting the
methanol from the tarry distilled liquid. What is left behind in the
process is charcoal.
Ethane = C2H6 also an odorless/tasteless gas and used to be called
di-methyl
Ethanol = C2H5(0H) or simply C2H60. The active ingredient in many
popular drinks.
Denatured Alcohol is usually the same thing as Methylated Spirits. But
in the general term of 'denatured', ethanol can be 'cut' with all kinds
of other chemicals such as acetone, toluene, ether.
Methylated Spirits is Ethanol cut (denatured) with Methanol (around 15%)
in order to render it non potable. Thereby getting around (at least) US
tax and revenue laws.
Hydrated is a term to indicate, in some cases, the 'attachment' of (OH)
molecules. It was descriptive of the process of taking a fairly
chemically inert odorless gaseous compound (methane, ethane, etc.) and
giving it water like properties. Methyl-hydrate or methanol is an older
term that hangs on in countries or regions that favour traditionalisms.
Hydrate is normally a term to indicate that water is chemically bound
rather than just added to a mixture.
Ethanol is generally not poisonous (except in copious quantities), but
is toxic even in small amounts and continued heavy exposure over time is
not recommended.
Methanol is generally poisonous and toxic at low doses. Since it is not
taxed it is a cheaper way to get intoxicated than with ethanol
('alcohol'). It is the main ingredient of 'Squeeze'. The ingredients
that make up Sterno are placed in a rag and then squeezed to get the
liquid...methanol. A few nights of getting bagged on this results in
blindness and a bunch of other ills most people would not like to have.
The main early on affect of drinking denatured alcohol will be tossing
whatever cookies you may have had just previous. Besides, it makes a
terrible drink with tonic water -- even a twist doesn't help it.
Rubbing alcohol is propanol (propane derived) usually cut with water.
Not suggested as a finish solvent in the way you get it off the shelf at
the store.
Al Cooperband
chemical structure
H
|
H-C-O-H
|
H
and ethanol has the chemical structure
H H
| |
H-C-C-O-H
| |
H H
The C and C-C carbon backbones of these molecules are "methyl" and
"ethyl," respectively. "Hydrate" refers to the -O-H group attached to
the backbone. (Bonds not otherwise designated are understood to be to
Hydrogen.)
____________________
Al Cooperband
(drop the .invalid from my "reply to" address")
brocpuffs wrote:
>
> On 14 May 2002 12:38:45 -0700, mwe...@rogers.com (MikeE) wrote:
>
> >Ok Wreckers... time to put on your chemist's hat.
> >
> >I've been trying to figure out *precisely* what the difference is
> >between denatured alcohol and methyl hydrate. This is what I've found:
> >
> >Denatured alcohol:
> >- also called "denatured ethanol", or "denatured grain alcohol"
> >- ethyl alcohol that has had other "denaturing" (read: poison it so
> >some dumbass won't drink it) agents added, typically methyl alcohol
> >
> >Methyl hydrate:
> >- also called "methanol", or "wood alcohol"
> >- used as gas line antifreeze
>
> That's about it, man. methyl hydrate IS methyl alcohol or methanol.
> AFAIK, the "hydrate" part of the name refers to a certain amount of
> water that methyl (as well as ethyl) alcohols like to hold on to. The
> alternate is "anhydrous ethanol" or "anhydrous methanol" which have no
> water in them. They will quickly absorb water from the air, though.
> They cost somewhat more, too.
>
> >I have been using methyl hydrate to cut shellac, and the results seem
> >to be fine. Theoretically, denatured alcohol and mehtyl hydrate do the
> >same thing... act as a solvect for the shellac resin. What I would
> >like to know is whether or not the end result the same. Does shellac
> >in denatured alcohol behave differently from shellac in methyl
> >hydrate? How, if at all, does this affect the finish?
>
Al Cooperband
____________________
Al Cooperband
(drop the .invalid from my "reply to" address")
brocpuffs
wrote:
>Does 91% isopropyl alcohol work as a solvent for shellac?
> ____________________
> Al Cooperband
> (drop the .invalid from my "reply to" address")
Got more water in it, a minor thing. Slower drying. This has been
talked about in the past. Isopropyl takes a fair amount of time longer
than ethyl. I dunno if the shellac layers are weaker or anything-
George
clarity. Stuff I got was 95% with only 40% of the remainder water (2%), and
while it wouldn't allow you to brush out a coat, it would allow you to dip
the brush and have at least a damp edge to work to.
I would never try again to use slow alcohol to French polish. Learned my
lesson there when I tried to use what was available instead of what I
should.
"brocpuffs" <broc...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:lga6eu0sso6he9c02...@4ax.com...
lha...@unm.edu
Al Cooperband <co...@usc.edu.invalid> wrote:
>Remembering back to Organic Chemistry in college, methanol has the
>chemical structure
>
> H
> |
> H-C-O-H
> |
>
>
> H H
> | |
> H-C-C-O-H
> | |
> H H
>
Hey, Someone who took chemistry back when I did.
And Proponal comes in two versions: N and iso
H H H
| | |
H-C-C-C-O-H
| | |
H H H
H H H
| | |
H-C-C-C-H
| | |
H O H
|
H
If I remember right. :-)
Hey this ascii chemistry is fun. :-)
...lew...
Rob
can purchase the stuff in Canada. It seems like in the states you can walk
into your local Wal-Mart and pick it up off the shelf. I havn't had any
luck finding it up here. I know it's legal because I've located the
goverment regs detailing how it must be denatured, but can't find a supplier
Rob
"MikeE" <mwe...@rogers.com> wrote in message
news:683919cd.02051...@posting.google.com...
NOSPAMBOB
In article <68_E8.87261$xS2.6...@news1.calgary.shaw.ca>, "Rob"
<rknapto...@shaw.ca> writes:
>Speaking of denatured alcohol, does anyone know of a supplier or place you
>can purchase the stuff in Canada.
Name works for E-mail
Ron Alexander
"NOSPAMBOB" <nosp...@aol.com> wrote in message
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S. Peacock
where you would buy shellac. Fairly common stuff.
Ron Alexander
Colour Your World.
Lee Valley
http://www.leevalley.com/wood/page.asp?SID=&ccurrency=1&page=20107&category=1,19
0,42942
"S. Peacock" <xpea...@pacNOSPAMbell.net> wrote in message
news:3CE69037...@pacNOSPAMbell.net...
Ken Muldrew
>Home Depot
In Alberta neither Home Depot nor any other building supply store that
I know of sells denatured alcohol (although they all sell methanol).
Lee Valley has it but at $10/liter it's a little on the rich side.
>> <rknapto...@shaw.ca> writes:
>>
>> >Speaking of denatured alcohol, does anyone know of a supplier or place you
>> >can purchase the stuff in Canada.
Ken Muldrew
kmul...@ucalgary.ca
Denis Marier
every year. I have try buying grain alcohol for ages in Canada with
negative results. I bough denatured grain alcohol in one of the US paint
store once. Never again, the quality was so poor.
Now my main source of supply is Wal-Mart (Recochem) 99.9% pure Methyl
Hydrate.
I use it for thinning shellac and unpressurized marine stove with good
results.
I have purchased Methyl Hydrate that was not marked 99.9% pure and the
results were not as good. I then asked and the chemist informed me that
when its not marked 99.9% pure its because the water content is higher,
meaning there is water in the Methyl Hydrate.
Pharmacies use 65 OP alcohol for medicinal mixtures. It was one of MASH's
favorite.
"Ken Muldrew" <kmul...@ucalgary.ca> wrote in message
news:3ceacef8....@news.ucalgary.ca...