alternatives to edge banding or veneer

[Electric Comet]

will be making some stuff that will be for indoor use
but will be handled and will be mobile


want to keep it thin and light and cheap so ply is the answer but
what are the options for the edges

no edge banding or veneer as it will not hold up well enough


think that maybe some solid wood glued and screwed would be best

but maybe there are other treatments or possibilities

[k...@notreal.com]

Screws? Dowels, maybe. Some may think biscuits are a good idea. Leon
would suggest Dominoes. Glue works, too. I glued 2" oak edges on oak
ply and it held quite well without screws. Screws in woodworking?!!!
>
>
>
>
>
>

[-MIKE-]

I think he underestimates the strength of glue and punctuation. :-)
Solid wood glued to the edge of plywood is as strong as a period at the
end of a sentence.
It's easier to do that using the shift bar on a keyboard.


--

-MIKE-

"Playing is not something I do at night, it's my function in life"
--Elvin Jones (1927-2004)
--
www.mikedrums.com

[bnw...@gmail.com]

Even moreso a better (or some) description of the item being built and its intended usage(s)

[Scott Lurndal]

-MIKE- <mi...@mikedrumsDOT.com> writes:
>On 1/7/18 8:53 PM, k...@notreal.com wrote:
>> On Sun, 7 Jan 2018 12:41:44 -0800, Electric Comet
>> <electri...@mail.invalid> wrote:
>>
>>>
>>> will be making some stuff that will be for indoor use
>>> but will be handled and will be mobile
>>>
>>>
>>> want to keep it thin and light and cheap so ply is the answer but
>>> what are the options for the edges
>>>
>>> no edge banding or veneer as it will not hold up well enough
>>>
>>>
>>> think that maybe some solid wood glued and screwed would be best
>>>
>>> but maybe there are other treatments or possibilities
>>
>> Screws? Dowels, maybe. Some may think biscuits are a good idea. Leon
>> would suggest Dominoes. Glue works, too. I glued 2" oak edges on oak
>> ply and it held quite well without screws. Screws in woodworking?!!!
>>>
>
>I think he underestimates the strength of glue and punctuation. :-)
>Solid wood glued to the edge of plywood is as strong as a period at the
>end of a sentence.
>It's easier to do that using the shift bar on a keyboard.

Indeed.

https://www.mlcswoodworking.com/shopsite_sc/store/html/smarthtml/pages/bit_edgeband_ogee.html#edge_banding_anchor

[John Grossbohlin]

"Scott Lurndal" wrote in message news:b_M4C.131750$lH5.1...@fx31.iad...

>https://www.mlcswoodworking.com/shopsite_sc/store/html/smarthtml/pages/bit_edgeband_ogee.html#edge_banding_anchor

I used V cutters (similar shape to those shown on the web site) for a
milk-painted plywood project that had edges that were going to see some
abuse. However I used a 3 HP shaper with shaper cutters instead of a
router. I edged with poplar as I recall and it held up very well.

[-MIKE-]

I don't think those specialty edge bits are worth the hassle.
The V bit is trouble waiting to happen. Imagine how easy it would be to
split the plywood when clamped.

There's plenty of surface area for glue which makes for a very strong
bond on hardwood edging on a flat butt joint. No biscuits or screws or
anything else.

When I want a really strong edge band and a higher profile (looks better
in most cases), I do a simple rabbet on the edging which can bee seen in
this pic.
http://mikedrums.com/shelf_edge_bot.jpg
It is incredibly strong with just glue.

[-MIKE-]

As I stated in another reply, I would be very worried that the convex V
on the hardwood edging would split the plywood when clamped.

I would love to hear from someone like you who has used them.
Did you have any issues with that?

[Leon]

My biggest concern with any bit for this purpose is insuring that the
stock is perfectly flat when milling. If the trim or the panel is
slightly warped the fit will be poor.

As stater earlier by Keith, IIRC, I prefer something like Dominoes to
index off the surface of the Domino fence.

[John McGaw]

As others point out, simply gluing solid wood strip to plywood, assuming it
is decent stuff and not full of voids, should be strong enough for most
purposes. On one project I cut a centered dado on plywood shelves and a
matching tongue on the facing strip. It worked a treat but was a serious
PITA to mill accurately and probably not worth the extra effort.

[whit3rd]

On Monday, January 8, 2018 at 3:36:05 PM UTC-8, -MIKE- wrote:
> On 1/8/18 4:16 PM, John Grossbohlin wrote:

> > I used V cutters (similar shape to those shown on the web site) for a
> > milk-painted plywood project that had edges that were going to see some
> > abuse.  However I used a 3 HP shaper with shaper cutters instead of a
> > router. 

> As I stated in another reply, I would be very worried that the convex V
> on the hardwood edging would split the plywood when clamped.

If the joints don't require the edging to curve, it's no problem with
polyurethane glue (Gorilla glue etc.). You don't need much clamp
pressure when the glue foams/expands. The V takes knocks from
any direction without straining the glue joint, so the (relatively weak)
bond isn't a problem either.

Getting a good V cut, on a table saw, took some work, though. I plowed
a deep edge dado first, then with the work flat on the table, guided it
with a narrow false fence against that dado bottom while doing two
45 degree cuts with zero-clearance insert. Shaper would've been
quicker.

[-MIKE-]

I just don't see the point. Major overkill.
I get belt and suspenders, but this is belt, suspenders, a rope, bungee
cords, motorcycle straps, duct tape, and more.
What are people doing to their shelves, hitting them with sledge
hammers? :-)

[whit3rd]

On Monday, January 8, 2018 at 7:21:19 PM UTC-8, -MIKE- wrote:
> On 1/8/18 9:07 PM, whit3rd wrote:
> > On Monday, January 8, 2018 at 3:36:05 PM UTC-8, -MIKE- wrote:
> >> On 1/8/18 4:16 PM, John Grossbohlin wrote:

> >>> I used V cutters (similar shape to those shown on the web site) for a

> >>> milk-painted plywood project ...

> > Getting a good V cut, on a table saw, took some work, though. I plowed
> > a deep edge dado first, then with the work flat on the table, guided it
> > with a narrow false fence against that dado bottom while doing two
> > 45 degree cuts with zero-clearance insert. Shaper would've been
> > quicker.

> I just don't see the point. Major overkill.

I wanted to use pretty wood for the edge, but straight strips from a 1" board had
too much width variance. If you make a 45 degree slant cut on a 1x board, that diagonal
'way overlaps the 3/4" plywood. A router/flush cut bit or some false-fence work
on the table saw, or even hand planes, finishes it to look nice.

But, it IS a lot of steps. Contact cement and wood tape was easier.
If only the wood tape wasn't expensive and ugly...

[Bob La Londe]

How tough does it need to be? Simple oak trim, glue, and pins seems to
work pretty well for utility shelves. Puppies on the other hand will
tear it off. They chew on everything.

[k...@notreal.com]

On Mon, 08 Jan 2018 16:27:51 GMT, sc...@slp53.sl.home (Scott Lurndal)
wrote:

Alignment isn't a trivial proposition. Unless it's going to take some
pretty dramatic abuse, glue works fine without the routing. Glue is
likely stronger than the fibers of the plywood but it could be that
the tongue/groove will provide some strength, as long as there is more
than one ply top and bottom.

[k...@notreal.com]

On Mon, 8 Jan 2018 17:33:40 -0600, -MIKE- <mi...@mikedrumsDOT.com>
wrote:

Of course, that adds to the (visual) "weight" of the panel. It also
adds a lot of strength. I did a plough on the edges of my work
benches. On my cutting table, I have a piece of MDF set 1/4" proud of
the edging so the track saw blade doesn't get the banding. The other
is 3/4" proud. I have a piece of melamine in it, with Kreg clamp
tracks down two edges (haven't quite finished this one).

[-MIKE-]

I don't even bother trying to get perfect alignment on my edging
(including the one pictured in my other post).
I glue them on proud of the plywood thickness and then run them through
the router with a pattern bit. It doesn't get more perfect or easy than
that.

[k...@notreal.com]

On Tue, 9 Jan 2018 18:35:20 -0600, -MIKE- <mi...@mikedrumsDOT.com>
wrote:

I take it that you stand the router on the edge and rout "sideways".
Any special technique for this? How thick is your banding (how deep
are you routing)?

[-MIKE-]

Here's a better picture of the rabbeted edging I do.
It's probably 1-1/4" to 1-3/8" high.
I have a router table mount on my table saw and last tile I did these, I
stood the shelves on the edging and ran it against the pattern bit with
the aid of a 90° handheld jig.
But honestly, after about 4 shelves, I went to freehand because that
1-1/4"+ is plenty enough flat surface to keep the shelf perpendicular to
the table.

However, I believe one could do an even fast job of it using a little
hand held trim router like the Colt, just holding the shelves with one
hand and the router in the other. Or with the shelves flat on a bench.

[DerbyDad03]

Did you forget the link to the "better picture"?

Do you have an efficient method for gluing the edging on? I have a bunch of
home-made spring clamp banding clamps which work well for flat edging, but
they won't work for your style.

I want to use your style for the bookshelves and with 8-10 30" shelves to do,
I'm looking for an efficient way to apply the edging.

[-MIKE-]

Oooops! Yes I did.
http://mikedrums.com/shelf_edge_top.jpg

> Do you have an efficient method for gluing the edging on? I have a
> bunch of home-made spring clamp banding clamps which work well for
> flat edging, but they won't work for your style.
>
> I want to use your style for the bookshelves and with 8-10 30"
> shelves to do, I'm looking for an efficient way to apply the edging.
>

What's the saying? You can never have enough clamps. :-)
I have a lot of Jet parallel clamps.
But, I think back when I did this style the first time, I used a bunch
of those cheap, aluminum, bar clamps from Harbor Freight.
https://www.harborfreight.com/36-in-Aluminum-Bar-Clamp-60539.html

Keep in mind that for most PVA glues you only have to clamp for 30-45
minutes.
Given the time it takes to spread the glue, line everything up, and
clamp together, you can probably rotate clamps out half way through your
shelves.

Also, I've done double clamping before. Let's say you have 36" clamps,
you can clamp up two 12-16" shelves w/edging, next to each other, using
the same clamps.
Use cauls to get away with fewer clamps.

When I've had a LOT of edging or face framing to glue up, I've been
known to use pocket screws as clamps where I know they won't be seen.
The screws can be taken out or left in. Technically, the screws would
be sufficient, but you know how us woodworkers are. :-)

[-MIKE-]

Oops....
http://mikedrums.com/shelf_edge_top.jpg

[DerbyDad03]

Are you only clamping the edging to the edge of the plywood and letting weight clamp the
edging to the bottom or are you using "vertical" clamps also?

[-MIKE-]

More or less, yes. IIRC, I pushed down when tightening the clamps to
ensure there was good contact with the bottom of the "L."
Keep in mind, the glue joint on the portion of the edging that is
underneath the shelf is only as strong as the glue between the bottom
two veneers, right? Any glue I use there will adhere to the finish
veneer on the bottom. The only glued bonding that's really necessary in
on the edge of the plywood. The hardwood edging is bonding with every
ply and all those plies are bonded to each other.
The biggest advantage to the rabbeted ("L") portion of this joint is the
multiplied mechanical and physical structural strength.

The simple physical structure of that shelf sitting on the rabbet ("L")
adds and incredible amount of strength to the shelf, even without any
glue on that surface. And in fact, even if the "L" wasn't there at
all-- if the edging was simply a 3/8"-ish x 1-1/4"-ish rectangular strip
of wood-- the extra 1/2"-ish of profile in the edging acts like an
I-beam to add a lot of strength and keep the shelf from sagging.

Think of a metal floor truss and how little surface is actually resting
on the bearing walls, yet because of the physical properties, the
mechanical strength is great. Perhaps a poor analogy, but it's bedtime.
:-)

The shelf in this picture was used in these bookcases, with 4ft. wide
shelves.
http://mikedrums.com/bookcases.jpg
I did a test of one of these shelves. I placed the shelf between two
tool boxes with about an inch of shelf resting on each box. I then took
about half of all the books the client was going to put on these shelves
and stacked them all on this shelf, in a pyramid. I left them there for
about 4 days and there was absolutely NO deflection in the shelf.

[-MIKE-]

On 1/9/18 8:22 PM, DerbyDad03 wrote:

By the way, if you are doing 30" shelves I don't think you even need the
rabbeted portion.
I did some shelves with hardwood edging, that was about the same height
as what I did in the picture I (finally) posted.

But is this case, I took two 12" (nominal size) wide shelves, put a
hardwood edging strip between the two shelves that was 2x the width of
the finished edging (somewhere around 1" thick x 1-3/8"), and glued both
shelves to the thicker edging, with the edging in the middle-- a sandwich.

After this glue-up cured, I ripped the two shelves apart in the center
of the edging. Routed the edging flush with the shelves, then made a
final rip pass (just a shave) on each shelf on the table saw to
perfectly square the edging to the shelf.

Depending on how long your clamps are, you could do 3 or 4 shelves wide
on a glue-up using this method, similar to a panel glue-up.

[DerbyDad03]

Thanks for all the suggestions. I really sporeciate the info.

[Electric Comet]

On Tue, 9 Jan 2018 14:11:55 -0700
Bob La Londe <no...@none.com99> wrote:

> How tough does it need to be? Simple oak trim, glue, and pins seems
> to work pretty well for utility shelves. Puppies on the other hand

that might be what i do or something like that

may use leather trim all the way around


still in that deciding and design stage

[-MIKE-]

I just found a picture of a bunch of shelves I was "double-clamping," in
case it helps you visualize. You will notice there are some good clamps
and some el-cheapo clamps. :-)
http://www.mikedrums.com/double_shelf_clamps.jpg

[DerbyDad03]

Thanks for that.

I was reading some reviews on the el-cheap HF clamps. The standard upgrade is to insert
a piece of scrap stock into the tube. It vastly increases the stiffness. The twisting seems to
be the only real complaint, which the insert eliminates.

Another possible upgrade is the one I did on a pair of Clamp-It clamps. I replaced the sliding
T handle with a Bessy style handle. I'm sure you use less turns on the bar clamps, but it was
a real pain to use the T handles on the Clamp-It unless it hung over the edge of the workbench.

https://i.imgur.com/ViWlxqZ.jpg

[Leon]

The simple solution to keep the clamps from bending panel is us clamps
on both sides to equal out the direction of deflection.

>
> Another possible upgrade is the one I did on a pair of Clamp-It clamps. I replaced the sliding
> T handle with a Bessy style handle. I'm sure you use less turns on the bar clamps, but it was
> a real pain to use the T handles on the Clamp-It unless it hung over the edge of the workbench.
>
> https://i.imgur.com/ViWlxqZ.jpg
>

How do these work for you. I have never been impressed with these style
clamps, they do not draw the pieces together rather they simple hold the
pieces in the position that you place the pieces. If you have a gap
between he mating corner pieces, tightening the clamp does not close
that gap. IMHO they encourage a poor fit. I certainly would not use
them for gluing a corner, maybe if I were only using the clamps
relatively loosely as a guide and using mechanical fasteners.

[-MIKE-]

This is probably the best corner clamp out there.
It leaves marks that must be puttied, but it really pulls the corner
together tightly.

http://www.garymkatz.com/toolreviews/clam_clamps.html

[Leon]

YES! I have seen that before but forgot about it.

BUT! Does it only work for something like a frame like the one
pictured? Could it be used where the corner is not flush on both sides?
Like a FF being attached to a cabinet side where the FF goes past the
side of the cabinet a 1/2" or so?
Or if attaching mid rails between stiles vs. top and bottom rails to stiles?

[-MIKE-]

Probably not all that. This looks like something guy invented for a
specific application because he was doing hundreds of them and needed a
solution-- and he nailed it.

I'm not sure if he'd have the motivation to apply the idea/technology to
other clamps for the joints you referred to. It would be nice if he
did, though.

[DerbyDad03]

On Friday, January 12, 2018 at 12:05:59 PM UTC-5, Leon wrote:
> On 1/12/2018 6:18 AM, DerbyDad03 wrote:

> >
> > I was reading some reviews on the el-cheap HF clamps. The standard upgrade is to insert
> > a piece of scrap stock into the tube. It vastly increases the stiffness. The twisting seems to
> > be the only real complaint, which the insert eliminates.
>
> The simple solution to keep the clamps from bending panel is us clamps
> on both sides to equal out the direction of deflection.
>

I think we're talking apples and grapes...unless you are just tossing out
an unrelated tip.

What I was referring to is the flimsiness of the U-shaped aluminum bar
itself. From what I read, the bar itself tends to twist end-to-end when
a lot of clamping force is applied. The solution is to insert a tight
fitting piece of stock to fill the U shaped channel. I'm not speaking from
experience - yet - although I did pick up a couple on the way home tonight.
They are easily twisted by hand, so I'll be stuffing them with some scrap
just to bulk them up a bit. Better before than in the middle of a glue up.

> >
> > Another possible upgrade is the one I did on a pair of Clamp-It clamps. I replaced the sliding
> > T handle with a Bessy style handle. I'm sure you use less turns on the bar clamps, but it was
> > a real pain to use the T handles on the Clamp-It unless it hung over the edge of the workbench.
> >
> > https://i.imgur.com/ViWlxqZ.jpg
> >
>
> How do these work for you. I have never been impressed with these style
> clamps, they do not draw the pieces together rather they simple hold the
> pieces in the position that you place the pieces. If you have a gap
> between he mating corner pieces, tightening the clamp does not close
> that gap. IMHO they encourage a poor fit. I certainly would not use
> them for gluing a corner, maybe if I were only using the clamps
> relatively loosely as a guide and using mechanical fasteners.

You are 100% correct in that they do not draw the pieces together, but they
do a great job or holding stock vertical for things like edge banding, flush
trim routing, etc. Basically an extra pair of hands.

They do indeed work for keeping stock square for pocket screws.

I actually have a pair of the MLCS Clamp-It style (a gift) and a pair of
the Bessey style that I bought on my own. The both have their gives and
takes. The Clamp-It sits solid on a bench for holding panels vertical while
the Bessy's come with small C-clamps with a post that goes into a
hole in the base so that you can clamp the clamp to the edge of workbench.

http://www.rockler.com/bessey-angle-clamp?sid=V9146

When I edged banded the shelves that will go into the base cabinets I'm
building, the Bessys, clamped to the workbench, held the shelf upright
while the glue dried and then held it solid enough so I could flush up
the band with a router.

[Leon]

On 1/12/2018 4:42 PM, DerbyDad03 wrote:
> On Friday, January 12, 2018 at 12:05:59 PM UTC-5, Leon wrote:
>> On 1/12/2018 6:18 AM, DerbyDad03 wrote:
>
>>>
>>> I was reading some reviews on the el-cheap HF clamps. The standard upgrade is to insert
>>> a piece of scrap stock into the tube. It vastly increases the stiffness. The twisting seems to
>>> be the only real complaint, which the insert eliminates.
>>
>> The simple solution to keep the clamps from bending panel is us clamps
>> on both sides to equal out the direction of deflection.
>>
>
> I think we're talking apples and grapes...unless you are just tossing out
> an unrelated tip.
>
> What I was referring to is the flimsiness of the U-shaped aluminum bar
> itself. From what I read, the bar itself tends to twist end-to-end when
> a lot of clamping force is applied. The solution is to insert a tight
> fitting piece of stock to fill the U shaped channel. I'm not speaking from
> experience - yet - although I did pick up a couple on the way home tonight.
> They are easily twisted by hand, so I'll be stuffing them with some scrap
> just to bulk them up a bit. Better before than in the middle of a glue up.
>

There should be no twist, I don't think. I have never seen anything but
a bow when pressure is applied. Keep us informed if you experiment.

[k...@notreal.com]

I broke enough of the end castings on HF clamps that I put the clamps
where I'll likely never use them again. It's a PITA to have one break
when you're trying to get everything aligned.

[DerbyDad03]

Are we talking about the same clamps? Apples to apples, as they say?

The reason I ask is because the clamps that Paul Sellers modifies in his
video don't appear to have the same end castings as the the ones I bought.

It's not just the color difference. For example, if you FF to 9:36, you can
see a closeup of the clamp casting. Take a look at the size of the diagonal
brace above the barrel near the screw.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AyKiGmRq3wY

Now zoom in on the diagonal brace above the barrel in the link below. It
looks taller and beefier to me. In addition, at ~3:00 he complains about
the rubber ends of the handle coming off. The modern version has cap nuts.

https://www.harborfreight.com/36-in-aluminum-bar-clamp-60539.html

I can't say that the new ones are any better than what you have unless
we do a side by side comparison, I'm just saying that there is definitely
a difference between the clamps in Paul's July 2016 video and what I bought
today. (Mike's clamps look like what I bought)

I just stuffed mine with a stiffening stick and it made a huge difference.
We'll see how they work on a panel glue-up tomorrow.

[DerbyDad03]

I wonder what Mike has to say about twisting. It looks to me like he has
a half dozen or so - unstuffed - in this picture:

http://www.mikedrums.com/double_shelf_clamps.jpg

I just stuffed mine with a strip of plywood and it made a huge difference
in the stiffness of the bar from a twisting perspective. It turns out that
the plywood I'm using for the cabinets is the perfect thickness. All I had
to do was rip some 1 7/64" strips, round the edges on my new combo sander
(Thanks, kids! Merry Christmas!) and hammer it home. At 1 7/64", it's just
tall enough that the indentations that the spring loaded pad locks into
compresses the plywood core as I hammer it home. Unless I put a saw
kerf in the plywood strip to loosen it up, that sucker ain't coming out
of there.

All the videos of the "upgrade" say that the stiffener makes them feel
so much more substantial. I definitely agree with that.

We'll see how they do on a panel glue up tomorrow.

[-MIKE-]

I don't know about twisting.
There are so many other things I hate about them that maybe I just
didn't notice. :-)
FWIW, the newer ones may very well be thinner than older models.
I could definitely see them doing that to save material costs.

One of my biggest beefs with them is that the jaws don't stay anywhere
close to perpendicular to the bar. It make it very difficult to clamp
thin things without them trying to pop out, ie: 1x panels.

[k...@notreal.com]

On Fri, 12 Jan 2018 17:20:19 -0800 (PST), DerbyDad03

They look the same, though the ends are blue like the ones on the
floor in Mike's picture.

http://www.mikedrums.com/double_shelf_clamps.jpg

It's the foot casting that breaks.

>
>Now zoom in on the diagonal brace above the barrel in the link below. It
>looks taller and beefier to me. In addition, at ~3:00 he complains about
>the rubber ends of the handle coming off. The modern version has cap nuts.
>
>https://www.harborfreight.com/36-in-aluminum-bar-clamp-60539.html
>
>I can't say that the new ones are any better than what you have unless
>we do a side by side comparison, I'm just saying that there is definitely
>a difference between the clamps in Paul's July 2016 video and what I bought
>today. (Mike's clamps look like what I bought)

That's them. I bought mine about ten years ago, though. Haven't used
them in probably eight.