What happens in radial-arm saw injuries?
Joe Emenaker
couple of people told me that radial-arms are significantly more dangerous
and that they had read some articles about people who had nearly ripped
their arm completely off, etc. etc.
Now, although I eventually got a table saw, I'm still having a bit of a
tough time envisioning how a radial-arm saw can go so awry. The only thing I
can imagine is that, since the part of the blade contacting the work is
traveling away and *UP*, it could have a tendency to bite the work and yank
it up off of the cutting table. If you were holding the work down with your
arm, your arm could be drawn up with it.
Is this how it happens, or is it usually something else?
Also, since I ended up buying a table saw, what's the most common way that
people injure themselves with a table saw?
- Joe
Bill Watson
saw hangs if your hands are where they should be they will not be jerked
into the blade. If the piece is thrown upward your left hand will be
thrown up and back but should be well out of the blades path. If it
tries to run over you your right hand will move with the saw out of
harms way. When you hear of someone getting their arm cut off you can
bet the arm was in front of the blade where it should never be. Have
seen people saw cross handed which is an accident waiting to happen. If
you keep the left hand on the table to the side of the blade and your
right hand firmly on the handle no matter what happens it cannot cut
your right hand and the left hand will not be jerked horizontally into
the blade unless you have your hand entirely too close to the blade.
Eric Lund
Climb up on soap box...
Table Saw: Like anything else, being stupid. Not using safety features
like blade guards and splitters. Ripping narrow stock and getting their
hands under the guard where it never belongs. Standing directly in line
with stock being ripped (the old kickback through the gut trick). Trying to
work with stock too large for one person to handle. Holding stock on one
side of the blade and reaching across to turn the saw off.
Using a guard and treating it like it has 50000 volts and 10000 amps running
through it when the saw is running will probably eliminate 90-99% of the
accidents.
But hey, it won't happen to me, right?
Climb down from soapbox...
"Joe Emenaker" <j...@emenaker.com> wrote in message
news:9163i...@news2.newsguy.com...
Mark
blade (e.g. lost balance, not paying attention, saw threw stock and
fingers followed into the blade, etc) or being struck by a piece of
stock violently thrown by the saw.
I would *guess* radial armsaw injuries are the same type, but less
frequent, aggravated somewhat by the moving carriage design of the saw.
On the plus side, it should be possible to mechanically lock the stock
completely down before cutting whereas a table saw often requires a hand
to be near the blade to feed the stock.
-Mark
acl...@yahoo.com
radial-arm saw (ie. you turn the motor/blade assembly 90 degress, then
stand on one side and feed the wood in). Crosscutting supposedly isn't
as dangerous but isn't as accurate as a table saw or sliding compound
miter saw.
Anyway, try the link below, select "radial arm saw", then click Search
for 19 tales of woe:
http://www.woodworking2.org/AccidentSurvey/search.htm
In article <9163i...@news2.newsguy.com>,
Sent via Deja.com
http://www.deja.com/
Donald R. Watland
crosscut too thick a piece of wood in a single pass. If the blade does not
have a negative rake angle on the teeth, the blade has a tendency to pull
itself into the wood. If the wood is thick enough, the blade can actually
climb into the piece in an abrupt fashion. If the wood is very hard, I have
seen the blade exert enough pull to overcome the "vertical" lock and rotate
the blade about 45 degrees as it pulled itself into a thick hunk of wood,
and then stalled out. The solution would have been raising the blade and
taking several passes to make the cut. However, this potential disaster
occured with all hands being off to the appropriate sides, where they
belonged, except the blade rotated out of vertical, far enough that a left
hand could have been in jepardy, even though it was in a place that was
normally "safe."
--
Donald Watland
Watland Design
Peoria, AZ
dwat...@uswest.net
"Joe Emenaker" <j...@emenaker.com> wrote in message
news:9163i...@news2.newsguy.com...
Andy Dingley
>When I was debating between getting a table saw or a radial-arm saw, a
>couple of people told me that radial-arms are significantly more dangerous
An old post of mine (from uk.d-i-y)
>What sort of problems were highlighted?
Mainly that a RAS was a fine device for short-distance crosscutting
(if you do much of it), useless (obviously) for long crosscuts, and
potentially lethal for ripping.
A long debate then ensued, on the hazards of kickback when ripping on
a circular saw (the saw picks up the wood and hurls it at you - a bad
one is enough to skewer people). Much depends on what part of the saw
blade you're working with, and what angle the blade is moving in,
relative to the wood.
If you're using a table saw (not a RAS), then the advice is to set the
blade high and use it with the wood flat on the table, so that the
teeth are travelling almost verrtically, where they're in contact with
the wood. If you set the blade low, or you saw wood which is thicker
than the safe limit for the size of blade you have, then there's a
contact area where the blade's teeth are travelling near horizontally.
This is the risky bit, as any jamming here which throw the wood along
the table, and there's no solid bit of sawbench holding it down
against this force, just your hands and a push stick.
With a RAS, the fact that the blade is coming down from above the
wood, towards the bench, means that the dangerous part of the blade is
almost certainly in contact with the wood. Your risk of lengthways
grab and a kickback is thus increased.
I'm not saying that a RAS is inherently dangerous, but I am convinced
that it increases the risk of a kickback, when used for ripping. Given
all the other factors, including cost, I decide to leave a RAS alone
and find a tablesaw instead. To make crosscutting easier, I then
built a crosscut sled to go on the table.
John Bailey Bobbitt
1) There was a Letter to the Editor a while back (Fine Woodworking I think)
by a hand surgeon/woodworker who had reconstructed numerous hands mangled or
maimed in woodworking accidents. He concluded that ripping on a radial arm
saw was the most common cause of hand accidents. The accidents occurred
most commonly becasue the operator's hand slipped off the board and into the
blade.
2) I've also heard of several instances of accidents that occurred while
cutting thin stock on heavy-duty radial-arm saws (12-14 inch blades, the
ones that used to be found in mills or lumber yards like the one I worked in
in high school, before blade guards or even OSHA). The accidents happen
when the blade catches and "runs away" in the thin stock and wheels outward
toward the operator, cutting anything in the way (fingers, pectoral muscles,
etc.). I had to clean up once after such an accident in which the operator
let the blade wheel itself into his upper chest and shoulder. We were
trained to "lock your elbow, pull with your shoulder."
"Joe Emenaker" <j...@emenaker.com> wrote in message
news:9163i...@news2.newsguy.com...
D. Anderson
"self-feed" through the 10" wide piece. It can be extremely dangerous.
Dave
Nachas
of 3 fingers because I didn't know better many years ago.
Martin Cohn
CNT
DeWalt table saw, of course, I use that one more now and the RAS is being used for
my workbench. I did apply for the new recall kit, how long does it take?
Another thing about RAS is that the motor is so free to move. It's like holding a
hand-held circular saw in the air and cut with it, only it's more "manual". I went
by Sear the other day and noticed that they now have "motorized" RAS, which it
will cut on it's own (feed movement) speed. I don't know how it really works,
weather if it is based on the hardness of the wood or it is same speed for all
wood. Now, that would be something more neat and safer. Yet, table saw are much
more useful.
While on this issue, one time while having the splitter and guard in it's place, I
bumped it with a swinging board (was just moving the board for whatever reason).
The DeWalt scraped some of the clear plastic guard and the splittler. Not only
that, it then stopped itself. I had to switch it off and then after fixing the
settings, I switched it back on and went on fine. It was interesting, no fuse
blown or don't know what caused it to freeze (I don't even have the sawstop thing
:).
Chuck
Michael Glennon
As should be readily apparent from the responses you've gotten so far 99.9%
of the woodworking accidents occur due to operator error be it TS or RAS.
This notion of a RAS being more dangerous then a TS. Let someone chug along
on a table saw feeling they can ignore the "rules of the road" for that
particular machine because it is "safer" then some other machine, that also
spins sharp pieces of metal at high speed, and see what their accident rate
is.
As a side light, not long ago (weeks), there was a recall for Sears RAS's to
refit the blade guard because of accidents. Seems to back up the theory
doesn't it? Reading the recall gives you the information that of the X
million of saws made in the last 28 years (I forget the exact figure for X
was but it was in the millions) there has been 300 reported accidents
ranging from amputations to just plain old cuts. In other words a rate of
about a 0.008%. My accident rate should be as good when I'm shaving.
ALL machines that cause very sharp pieces of metal to spin, rotate, orbit,
or otherwise move are dangerous and once and awhile a true accident will
happen but most injuries are pilot error.
A thought
--
Mike G.
Weymouth Ma.
http://home.att.net/~mjag/
mj...@worldnet.att.net
"Joe Emenaker" <j...@emenaker.com> wrote in message
news:9163i...@news2.newsguy.com...
Bud Nordman
board faster then he could hold it. The only thing that saved him was
the fact that the saw rode up on the board instead of cutting it and
stalled and popped the reset on the motor. He had his thumb on the board
in the way of the saws path too.
I have since learned that RAS and SCMS should be pushed thru the work
instead of being pulled. With a SCMS that's easy because you can place
the work then bring the saw out and lower it. A RAS has to be pulled out
and then the work put into place and the saw is in your way while you
place the work and measure.
If you think about it, what other power tool is moved in the same
direction as the rotating cutter is trying to pull? Any one?
CNT
(instead of pushing it into the wood).
Chuck
> I have since learned that RAS and SCMS should be pushed thru the work
> instead of being pulled.
>
CNT
(right-handed) hand-held circular saw, I tend to open the guard with my left
hand to start the cut... not good either, but...
Chuck
CW
--
CW
KC7NOD
"Bud Nordman" <wnor...@iac.net> wrote in message
news:MPG.14a15c201...@news.iac.net...
Jeff Gorman
"Joe Emenaker" <j...@emenaker.com> wrote
> Also, since I ended up buying a table saw, what's the most common way that
> people injure themselves with a table saw?
If you are feeling strong, there's a list of circular saw accidents, culled
mostly from rec.ww over the last 6 years.
--
Jeff Gorman, West Yorkshire, UK
Je...@millard.demon.co.uk
http://www.millard.demon.co.uk/Index.htm
Joe Emenaker
"Bud Nordman" <wnor...@iac.net> wrote:
> Years ago I had a RAS and a carpenter cut a 2x4 and it self fed thru
the
> board faster then he could hold it. The only thing that saved him was
> the fact that the saw rode up on the board instead of cutting it and
> stalled and popped the reset on the motor. He had his thumb on the
board
> in the way of the saws path too.
Ughghgh! How has the guy kept any of his fingers for so long?
> I have since learned that RAS and SCMS should be pushed thru the work
> instead of being pulled.
Interestingly, I always figured that this is how RAS's were operated....
precisely *because* they would self-feed if you pulled them through
instead of pushing them.
However, on a RAS, it's kind a double-edged sword. If you push the saw
through the work, the work is meeting the ascending side of the blade,
which can tend to yank it up off of the table.
- Joe
Joe Emenaker
"Jeff Gorman" <Je...@millard.demon.co.uk> wrote:
>
> If you are feeling strong, there's a list of circular saw accidents,
culled
> mostly from rec.ww over the last 6 years.
Well, I'm also a pilot, and I occasionally read about pretty upsetting
aviation accidents (like a guy plowing into the side of a mountain with
his wife and 3 kids or something). Sobering, to say the least.
I've discovered that you have to read things like that at a certain
pace. Read enough of them to stay careful, but not so many that you
abandon the hobby altogether out of fear.
- Joe
Andrew Purcell
Hi Guys,
I've read this thread with interest, as I have and often use an old
DeWalt radial saw. First, if the thing is adjusted well, it makes
plenty accurate crosscuts. Second, even though I have had it want to
self feed a bit on occasion, I've made it a habit to hold the work at
least 12" from the blade path with my left hand, and control the
carriage with my right. I won't say it's not possible, but it's hard
for me to imagine a scenario where I would have an accident crosscutting
with this machine. Ripping is a different story, but with proper
precautions and respect, (holddowns, featherboards, push sled, constant
attention), you can still be safe. It's just more of a PITA than the
table saw, and so one day, when you get a little lazy, wham.
I think with any of these machines, that's what you're really fighting
against. Complacency and laziness. Oh, I just have to make this one
cut, so I won't install the splitter. Or guard. Or featherboard. And
that's when opportunity and bad fortune conspire to cause something bad.
Sometimes very bad, life changing bad.
I think it's good to have these threads and renew the respect we each
should have for what can happen, especially if the operator doesn't do
his part to stay safe. Now it's off
to clean up the mess in I left in the shop.
Be Safe,
Bob
Bud Nordman
>
> "Bud Nordman" <wnor...@iac.net> wrote:
> Interestingly, I always figured that this is how RAS's were operated....
> precisely *because* they would self-feed if you pulled them through
> instead of pushing them.
>
> However, on a RAS, it's kind a double-edged sword. If you push the saw
> through the work, the work is meeting the ascending side of the blade,
> which can tend to yank it up off of the table.
>
> - Joe
you can control the feed rate just by easing the pressure and with a hold
down it is safer. The saw, if left go at it's own speed rate is far too
fast and has to be held back by hand. That is almost impossible because
you can't hold back harder until you feel the saw trying to go faster and
with some reaction time it's too late. It's like feeding into a router
bit on a table. If you go against the rotation and stop feeding or pull
back a fraction the work is no longer touching the bit and the bit action
(kickback) is no longer a problem.
That's why TS's kickback. If the ripped work is warping into the blade
without a splitter, stopping the feed doesn't stop the kickback.
CW mentioned a milling machine as a device that feeds with the bit
rotation instead of against. I assume he's talking about metalworking
not woodworking. In that case the work is mechanically fed and held and
not fed or held by hand and the feed rate is controlled by some other
attached device that is slower than if the cutter was pulling the work as
fast as the RPM would determine if left go freely. So that example
doesn't count.