Trying to square a 4x4 piece of hard maple
jtpr
maple. I bought 2 pieces of 16/4 hard maple about 8.5" wide and
ripped each one in half leaving me 4 rough ~4x4 pieces about 4 foot
long. So, I am trying to square them now on a small 4" jointer that I
have. Although I know this Jointer is very accurate, ( set it up with
a dial gauge and have successfully flattened and jointed quite a few
boards on it) I cannot seem to get 2 sides of these big pieces to be
square with each other. When I take them off the jointer and lay them
on my table saw, one jointed face down, and put a square between the
saw table and the other jointed face there is always a gap. I know
the jointer fence is square with the top. This is very frustrating.
I'm wondering if I can somehow use my planer to get this thing square
all around.
Any suggestions?
-Jim
DanG
This does assume that each tool is tuned and used properly.
- Joint one face on each stick
- Plane the opposite face straight across from the jointed face.
You now have two parallel faces.
- Saw one of the untouched faces to establish one square edge.
This assumes the saw blade is giving an accurate cut.
- Plane the side opposite the newly sawn surface. You now have
two sets of parallel faces that should be square on all edges.
- I assume at this point that you are very close to finish
dimension. Plane to finish dimension, quarter turn each stick to
plane to full square.
--
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
DanG
Keep the whole world singing . . .
"jtpr" <jtp...@gmail.com> wrote in message
news:91b69bd5-6282-409d...@h16g2000vbz.googlegroups.com...
jtpr
> I would consider this a normal sequence:
>
> This does assume that each tool is tuned and used properly.
>
> - Joint one face on each stick
>
> - Plane the opposite face straight across from the jointed face.
> You now have two parallel faces.
>
> - Saw one of the untouched faces to establish one square edge.
> This assumes the saw blade is giving an accurate cut.
>
> - Plane the side opposite the newly sawn surface. You now have
> two sets of parallel faces that should be square on all edges.
>
> - I assume at this point that you are very close to finish
> dimension. Plane to finish dimension, quarter turn each stick to
> plane to full square.
>
> --
> ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
> DanG
> Keep the whole world singing . . .
>
Thank you, and I would agree. However, my table saw has, at best, a
3.5" cut. So I will have to make 2 cuts on the table saw which
doesn't leave a nice finish, but I supppose I can plane it flat.
-Jim
dpb
Either the jointer fence is _not_ square to the table (or the knives
aren't parallel to the table is another possibility) or you're not
keeping the previously jointed (reference) face flush against the fence
in order to square the next one. Or, if the jointer isn't up to snuff,
perhaps the fence moves or is twisted.
As another poster noted, you can get two opposite faces parallel w/ the
planer but you can _not_ use it to square two faces (at least w/o some
other shimming sled, etc., ...)
--
dpb
...
> Either the jointer fence is _not_ square to the table (or the knives
> aren't parallel to the table is another possibility) or you're not
> keeping the previously jointed (reference) face flush against the fence
> in order to square the next one. Or, if the jointer isn't up to snuff,
> perhaps the fence moves or is twisted.
...
Oh, one other possibility is that your square isn't...check two pieces
against each other that have been "squared" by the jointer. They can be
anything so could use some lighter material to make it easier handling.
I'm still suspecting the jointer may just not be stout enough for the
material but it's still more likely to be technique or set up...
--
Larry W
While they are on the table saw, why not square them up right there?
F
Besides, unless the gap is pretty big, they are probably square enough
to use as table legs as is.
--
Often wrong, never in doubt.
Larry Wasserman - Baltimore Maryland - lwasserm(a)sdf. lonestar. org
Swingman
> Any suggestions?
No sense chasing your tail trying to make table legs perfectly square.
All you really need are two adjacent faces of the legs perpendicular to
each other ... these would be the two surfaces to which the aprons will
be attached.
Providing your jointer fence is square to the jointer table and the tool
is otherwise properly setup, you can indeed use the jointer to make two
_adjacent faces_ perpendicular.
--
www.e-woodshop.net
Last update: 4/15/2010
KarlC@ (the obvious)
Larry Jaques
wrote:
>Thank you, and I would agree. However, my table saw has, at best, a
>3.5" cut. So I will have to make 2 cuts on the table saw which
>doesn't leave a nice finish, but I supppose I can plane it flat.
Jim, try using a cabinet scraper to smooth the saw cuts. They work
VERY well.
--
Happiness comes of the capacity to feel deeply, to enjoy
simply, to think freely, to risk life, to be needed.
-- Storm Jameson
John Grossbohlin
"jtpr" <jtp...@gmail.com> wrote in message
news:91b69bd5-6282-409d...@h16g2000vbz.googlegroups.com...
Jim,
Not trying to be a wise guy here, and assuming the fence is in fact at a
right angle to the table, are you pushing the board tight to the fence as
you feed it through the jointer? With stock of that shape the tendency is
for the board to lay on the tables and for the high spots on the side of the
board to touch the fence. This rather than for the side of the board to be
tight to the fence and only touch the tables at the "high" spots on the
bottom...
John
Lew Hodgett
"jtpr" wrote:
>I am making a kitchen island that will have 3.5" square legs made
>from
> maple.
<snip>
> .... I cannot seem to get 2 sides of these big pieces to be
> square with each other.
<snip>
> Any suggestions?
---------------------------------
Eat your Wheaties.
A 4x4 hunk of maple is hefty and will require you exert considerable
force to hold the piece against the fence for the entire cut.
If your jointer is truly "tuned", then have to make sure the operator
is also "tuned".
BTW, I'd stay away from the T/S.
This is a job for your jointer and planer to yield square stock IMHO.
Have fun.
Lew
Gordon Shumway
wrote:
>I am making a kitchen island that will have 3.5" square legs made from
This reminds me of my High School freshman wood shop class. For us to
be able to use, and appreciate, the power tools we first had to prove
we could use hand tools. One of the tasks was to get a scrap piece of
wood and after our instructor measured it, he would tell us what size,
length, width and height; it must be reduced to. The only tools we
could use were a hand plane, a square and a tape measure and
absolutely no sandpaper. All measurements not only had to be the
exact dimensions he specified but all the faces had to be exactly
square, parallel and perpendicular to the other respective faces for
the entire length. He inspected all wood blocks very closely. Some
kids took several weeks for each task.
I'm sure with a little time you could do it by hand. If you do, just
think of the pride you will have when completed.
Kerry Montgomery
"John Grossbohlin" <grossbo...@nospam.earthlink.net> wrote in message
news:Nfadne56Bt2YA2_R...@earthlink.com...
That didn't sound like a wise guy, sounded like good advice. Was wondering
if there's an upright version of a jointer? So that the board lay on what
used to be the fence, and what used to be the table is now the fence, and
the axis of the jointer cutterhead vertical rather than horizontal? I'm
obviously not an experienced woodworker.
Thanks,
Kerry
Martin Eastburn
A planner makes a parallel side.
The trick is to transfer a vertical parallel side to transfer
onto the joiner table/blade. It is how the wood is held while
pushing it through naturally.
Lacking a planer, one must have a flat side and use that off
the fence cutting another as you rotate the leg step by step.
Martin
cl...@snyder.on.ca
I'd be jointing one side straight, then planing the opposite surface
to match, then jointing the third side straight, and running it
through the planer again to square up the 4th side. After all 4 sides
are trued up, use the planer to reduce to the desired dimensions.
Square it up first removing as little wood as possible to allow for
some fine tuning if required.
John Grossbohlin
"Kerry Montgomery" <kamo...@teleport.com> wrote in message
news:qP-dnXPwF_DZkG7R...@earthlink.com...
You could do that with a shaper and a split fence.... The limitation would
be how tall of a cutter you could find within the context of bigger shapers
taking bigger cutters.
I suppose it would be possible to set up a stock feeder to keep the wood
tight against the fence. However, you are going to need something bigger
than a 4" jointer for that simply due to the size and weight of the stock
feeder.
John
Josepi
That would be harder to handle keeping it flat against a vertical cutting
fence. The opposite side could still be ragged and rough so a pushing fence
would not work as a jointer but possibly as a planer.
"Kerry Montgomery" <kamo...@teleport.com> wrote in message
news:qP-dnXPwF_DZkG7R...@earthlink.com...
Josepi
That would be harder to handle keeping it flat against a vertical cutting
fence. The opposite side could still be ragged and rough so a pushing fence
would not work as a jointer but possibly as a planer.
"Kerry Montgomery" <kamo...@teleport.com> wrote in message
news:qP-dnXPwF_DZkG7R...@earthlink.com...
Josepi
this attempted by others and it becomes a comedy sometimes, like the
trimming the stool legs.
Initial jointing and opposite side planing then after square testing, shim
as necessary and replane?
I don't own a planer. Can the pressure rollers be put on a slope to
accomodate this?
<cl...@snyder.on.ca> wrote in message
news:pl66f65od0r0huq6f...@4ax.com...
cl...@snyder.on.ca
They do exist - generally called a spindle shaper IIRC. Or a Spindle
Moulder Or a vertical jointer.
They are not terribly common today.
A honking big table router would also work I've done 2" on the router
table, not sure how much bigger cutters would be available.
Mike Marlow
>
> This reminds me of my High School freshman wood shop class. For us to
> be able to use, and appreciate, the power tools we first had to prove
> we could use hand tools. One of the tasks was to get a scrap piece of
> wood and after our instructor measured it, he would tell us what size,
> length, width and height; it must be reduced to. The only tools we
> could use were a hand plane, a square and a tape measure and
> absolutely no sandpaper. All measurements not only had to be the
> exact dimensions he specified but all the faces had to be exactly
> square, parallel and perpendicular to the other respective faces for
> the entire length. He inspected all wood blocks very closely. Some
> kids took several weeks for each task.
>
I can't imagine that many, if any high scholl freshmen ever made it on to
the power tools based on what you describe. But then again, we usually
remember these things a bit more dramatically than they actually occurred.
You're specifiying quite a piece of workmanship - something that takes a
tradesman a while to master, and you're suggesting that this was a qualifier
for high school freshman? Somehow, I find this very hard to believe.
--
-Mike-
mmarlo...@windstream.net
dpb
> How would you square up the sides to the top/bottom, though? I have seen
> this attempted by others and it becomes a comedy sometimes, like the
> trimming the stool legs.
>
> Initial jointing and opposite side planing then after square testing, shim
> as necessary and replane?
>
> I don't own a planer. Can the pressure rollers be put on a slope to
> accomodate this?
Specifically that way, no.
It is difficult to square two faces w/ a planer (to the point I'd not
even bother trying as a general rule). Even if a side is flattened as
reference, if the adjacent face is flattened there's no guarantee it's
consistent along it's length with the previous face (the two surfaces
can be twisted relative to each other). So, there's not a guarantee
that a single reference shim will get you square thru the planer.
The technique is to start w/ the reference face and then having a square
fence on the jointer, hold that reference face against the fence for
indexing rather than holding the face being jointed solidly on the
table. It helps if one has gotten close w/ table saw or bandsaw or even
w/ hand plane or however initially, of course.
I'm not sure what point of Martin's followup was--intended simply as
confirmation in other wording or was trying to what...???
OP's problem is indeterminate for certain from afar -- if one presumes
the tools are indeed aligned and accurate then it's technique. OTOH,
sometimes one thinks things are what they aren't--if his square weren't
quite so, for example, or the jointer fence isn't or...
--
dpb
...
> if there's an upright version of a jointer? So that the board lay on what
> used to be the fence, and what used to be the table is now the fence, and
> the axis of the jointer cutterhead vertical rather than horizontal? I'm
> obviously not an experienced woodworker.
...
Actually, not sure if anybody makes one now, but in the early 70s-80s
time frame Delta introduced precisely that....unfortunately, I can't
even recall at the moment what it was they called it. It didn't make a
big hit and didn't last very long. I saw one in an auction list not
terribly long ago but don't have a link at the moment, sorry...
Maybe one of the other oldtimers will recall them. If I get some time
I'll try to find one of the old catalogs or do a google and see if can
find any links to the past...
Never owned one, did get chance to use one once't. Handy and useful but
not indispensible, obviously. IIRC, the cutter head cutting radius was
about 8" or less. It used a set of inset knives on a surface plate and
was able to joint very tiny and thin pieces that couldn't be considered
on a normal jointer since there was a support plate behind the knives
instead of the open gap on a jointer table.
--
dpb
> Kerry Montgomery wrote:
> ...
>
>> if there's an upright version of a jointer? So that the board lay on
>> what used to be the fence, and what used to be the table is now the
>> fence, and the axis of the jointer cutterhead vertical rather than
>> horizontal? I'm obviously not an experienced woodworker.
> ...
>
> Actually, not sure if anybody makes one now, but in the early 70s-80s
> time frame Delta introduced precisely that....unfortunately, I can't
> even recall at the moment what it was they called it. It didn't make a
> big hit and didn't last very long. I saw one in an auction list not
> terribly long ago but don't have a link at the moment, sorry...
...
OK, there is one at the OWWM site...they were the "Uniplane"...
<http://www.owwm.com/photoindex/detail.aspx?id=209>
--
jtpr
Well, I did manage to get things so that they are square within about
1/32-->1/16 of an inch which is close enough for what I'm doing. I
was pushing the piece against the fence and not the table, and
eventually, with a lot of work, got 3 legs done. I need to invest in
a bigger, better jointer for projects this size.
Thank you all for all the help.
-Jim
Gordon Shumway
It shouldn't be hard to believe because it is true. When inspecting
the surfaces for flatness and squareness he would hold the piece up to
the light and if he saw ANY light between the piece and the square you
had some more work to do. Also don't forget that we only had about 45
minutes a day to accomplish this work.
One of the other tasks was to create a half lap joint using only a
hammer and chisel. I still have a scar on my left thumb from that 50
year old memory. I also have a great appreciation for power tools.
dpb
...
> Well, I did manage to get things so that they are square within about
> 1/32-->1/16 of an inch which is close enough for what I'm doing. I
> was pushing the piece against the fence and not the table, and
> eventually, with a lot of work, got 3 legs done. I need to invest in
> a bigger, better jointer for projects this size.
...
Did you try the test on a couple pieces of (say), 4x4 pine (could even
build it up out of a couple scrap tubafor for the purpose) to check on
the accuracy of the jointer/fence setup? Should be much easier to
machine and two placed facing each other on the flat surface of the saw
table or similar should match precisely or show double the error...
If that doesn't work well, then the setup just isn't right (or the fence
moves or something...)
--
jtpr
I was recently reading an article in one of the mags about some school
(North Bennett?) that uses this same methodology. It does seem a
sound way to teach youngsters about a craft.
-Jim
cl...@snyder.on.ca
wrote:
>How would you square up the sides to the top/bottom, though? I have seen
>this attempted by others and it becomes a comedy sometimes, like the
>trimming the stool legs.
>
>Initial jointing and opposite side planing then after square testing, shim
>as necessary and replane?
>
>I don't own a planer. Can the pressure rollers be put on a slope to
>accomodate this?
Nope, but you've obviously not used one. If the first side is jointed
straight, the second parallel side will always come out parallel and
straight.
The third side is a repeat of the first, using the jointer, and the
4th side then also comes out parallel and straight - and if the third
edge is jointed square, which is not difficult, the whole part will be
"square" - could be a rectangle, but 2 sets of sides will be equall,
and all corners will be 90 degree (or VERY close)
cl...@snyder.on.ca
wrote:
No, actually it works very well - and is quite simple. A Kreg router
table and fence is a joy to work on - and it's not terribly hard to
make your own that will work just as well. The long cutter is the
hardest part to locate. (or make)
cl...@snyder.on.ca
You talking about a veneer jointer?
cl...@snyder.on.ca
A different animal than I was thinking of.
Larry W
dpb <no...@non.net> wrote:
>Kerry Montgomery wrote:
>...
>
>> if there's an upright version of a jointer? So that the board lay on what
>> used to be the fence, and what used to be the table is now the fence, and
>> the axis of the jointer cutterhead vertical rather than horizontal? I'm
>> obviously not an experienced woodworker.
>...
>
>Actually, not sure if anybody makes one now, but in the early 70s-80s
>time frame Delta introduced precisely that....unfortunately, I can't
>even recall at the moment what it was they called it. It didn't make a
>big hit and didn't last very long. I saw one in an auction list not
>terribly long ago but don't have a link at the moment, sorry...
>
I believe you're referring to the Uniplane.
http://www.owwm.com/photoindex/detail.aspx?id=209
--
Better to be stuck up in a tree than tied to one.
Larry Wasserman - Baltimore Maryland - lwasserm(a)sdf. lonestar.org
dpb
...
> You talking about a veneer jointer?
No, the Rockwell/Delta "Uniplane" -- posted link to pich'urs at OWWM in
followup...
--
Josepi
"Larry W" <lwas...@sdf.lNoOnSePsAtMar.org> wrote in message
news:id19tb$34q$1...@speranza.aioe.org...
Josepi
"Larry W" <lwas...@sdf.lNoOnSePsAtMar.org> wrote in message
news:id19tb$34q$1...@speranza.aioe.org...
Martin Eastburn
bottom.
It would be nice to have a sliding fence so you could clamp it tight.
With only a joiner - you have 1 true edge and three held to the fence
trying to cut the bottom to match a 90 of the fence.
A planner is handy to make two sided parallel.
Martin