Record's Coronet #3 lathe
god...@spiers.enet.dec.com
I would like to know if anyone has used or owns any of
Record's Coronet lathes, esp. the #3. What do you think of
it? (shortcomings, strengths, general perception, anything
pro/con youd like to say about it).
Thanx...JimG
Dion T. Fralick
Jim,
I have no reference/catalog handy...but I believe the #3 is the one with the
cylindrical steel ways. It is very heavy for a lathe of it's comparitively
small size. I don't own one....but a friend of mine used one while giving
a turning demonstration at a woodworking show recently. It was provided by
Record Coronet, who was represented at the show. Anyway, his general
impression was that it's pretty good machine, fairly heavy, low vibration (he
had sand bags loaded on the lower beam), head stock rotates 90 degrees for
faceplate turning larger than the standard swing. It took about three people
to put in into place, those are solid steel cylinders for the ways!!!!!
I thought it was a well engineered machine....however, (and I need to check on
this) I seem to remember it has some unique (proprietary, non-standard) about
the headstock spindle. Their accesories looked well built as well but much
$$$. Now, to change the subject slighlty, I just finished grinding the edge
on my first homemade lathe chisel. Thought you may be interested... it's made
from a planer blade that could no longer be held safely in the cutter head.
It was given to me by a friend who makes all of his tools. He used to get the
spent blades for free until the shops figured he used them like he did, now
they cost him $2 each...oh well. Note that using this kind of steel means
that there is no hardening or tempering needed. I'm going to get the steel
hardness tested later this week just to find out how hard it is. I'm still
planning to make some more tools that will need to be hardened and tempered,
I'll let know how that goes. Oh, just for grins I took one of more heavy duty
Sorby (yeah, I know) bowl scrapers to get hardness tested. Rockwell 62 near
the cutting edge and Rockwell 48 near the tang. Interesting eh, kind of makes
sense though. Hope all this rambling was of some help....e-mail me if you
would like more details. Enjoy
Dion Fralick d.t.f...@larc.nasa.gov
LESC
NASA LaRC
Hampton, VA
god...@spiers.enet.dec.com
Dion,
Thanx for the info about the lathe. I saw one at a local ww store and was
impressed. However, I didnt have the opportunity to test drive it.
>>I thought it was a well engineered machine....however, (and I need to check on
>>this) I seem to remember it has some unique (proprietary, non-standard) about
>>the headstock spindle.
Are you talking about the Morse #1 taper? I think most lathes are #2s.
>> Oh, just for grins I took one of more heavy duty
>>Sorby (yeah, I know) bowl scrapers to get hardness tested. Rockwell 62 near
>>the cutting edge and Rockwell 48 near the tang.
This is exactly the problem with most of the junk edgetools on the market today.
If done properly they should be tempered properly on atleast 2/3 of the blade.
Its my belief that most are only properly tempered on the first 1/2 or less.
I know that my Taylors and older Marples (with the box handles) are tempered
almost the entore length of the blade.
JimG
Dion T. Fralick
>Are you talking about the Morse #1 taper? I think most lathes are #2s.
No, this isn't what I was talking about...after a quick call I did find out
that the headstock and tailstock are #1 MT (at least that's what they told me
over the phone). So.....I'm not sure why that point was stuck in mind feeble
mind. If that brain cell ever revives and I do remember what is wasthta I was
thinking about I'll let you know. I think you're right about most hobbiest
lathes being #2 MT...there are several wood/pattern maker lathes that are #3
MT or bigger!!
>If done properly they should be tempered properly on
atleast 2/3 of the blade.
>Its my belief that most are only properly tempered
on the first 1/2 or less.
>I know that my Taylors and older Marples (with the
box handles) are tempered>almost the entore length of the blade.
Interesting that Sorby evidently does not harden and temper their tools in a
temperature controlled furnace...When I get the chance I'll take the same
scraper to get tested again and determine what percentage of the metal was
properly tempered.
god...@spiers.enet.dec.com
Jon,
Thanx for the reply.
>> The bearing is
>>a proprietry phosphor bronze, which is user adjustable. (very easy.)
How often do you have to adjust/oil it?
>>Here in Europe Record sell turning tools as well. I have found these to be
>>of good quality and to take and hold a good edge.
Good because the promo here in the US is the lathe and a set a six (beginners)
spindle turing tools. One of the places I saw the lathe said that the Record
tools were pretty high quality. I glad to hear another good review of them.
I had no specific questions...all I was really looking for was whether
you were happy with the machine, etc.
Thanx again..JimG
Jon Parry
I bought the #3 just over a year ago. I do mainly faceplate work, with a
little spindle thrown in. I am very pleased with the quality of engineering
and the performance of the lathe. It uses a #1 Morse Taper. The bearing is
a proprietry phosphor bronze, which is user adjustable. (very easy.) Speed
is changed via a polly v belt. Runs very smooth and quiet.
You can get either a 36 or 48 inch bed version .There are plenty of accessories
available from record and various 3rd parties in this MT size.The headstock travells
thu a 90 degree turn for larger diam. bowl turning. It can accomadate 12inches
over the bed. There is an optional large bowl turning attachment that
allows up to 33 inch diam. bowls to be turned. The bed is formed from two
very heavy and solid steel bars. The tailstock is hollow, good if you intend
to do any long hole boring (also a #1 MT). If I were looking to buy a lathe now,
I would buy Record again.
Here in Europe Record sell turning tools as well. I have found these to be
of good quality and to take and hold a good edge.
Let me know if you have any specific questions that I may be able to answer.
Best regards,
Jon.
--
*************************************************************************
email j...@charlie.neu.sgi.com voice mail # 58539
Silicon Graphics
European Marketing Centre
CH-2016 Cortaillod
Tel (+41) 38 43 35 27 Fax (+41) 38 43 39 05
"Meanwhile back in the meadow..."
*************************************************************************
Bennett Leeds
> I purchased the Record CL3 lathe last November. When I was
> shopping, I was looking at the Conover lathe ($2400), the Myford ($1800),
> the Record($1000), the Vega ($1500) the Woodfast($2000) and the Delta
> benchtop ($450).
Just wondering why you didn't consider the General lathes, which appear to
me to be built like thanks. The #160 lathe is priced around $1500.
BTW, I know nothing about lathes.
- Bennett Leeds
ben...@mv.us.adobe.com
god...@spiers.enet.dec.com
Kim,
Thanx for the reply.
Sounds like we are in similar positions. Id like a top of the line lathe but
dont have top of the line $$$ to give for it. Im going to give the Want
Advertiser (a local want ad rag) a couple weeks and if I dont find anything
reasonable between it and the used machine shops Ill probably spring for
the Record.
BTW have you had to adjust the head stock bearing yet? How often do you
oil it?
>>...is very heavy for a bench top unit.
How did it come packed...assembled or in pieces?
>> I put it on
>>the lathe table I built from the ShopNotes article, and without the sand in
>>the table yet I have virtually no vibration.
This is what I planned to do (except make one of my own design).
I was concerned about the lack of accessories but I thought sonce Im going
to be doing vanilla spindle turing it shouldnt make loads of difference.
Also the local supplier has most of the Record accessoies (chucks,
centers, etc).
Thanx again...JimG
Kim Poindexter
Jim,
I purchased the Record CL3 lathe last November. When I was
shopping, I was looking at the Conover lathe ($2400), the Myford ($1800),
the Record($1000), the Vega ($1500) the Woodfast($2000) and the Delta
benchtop ($450). The features I was looking for were speeds ~200-3000rpm,
~4' bed, able to do a 20" bowl, reversing switch, plus all the other
niceities. After looking in the classifieds for a Conover, Myford or
Woodfast for 6 months, I gave up on them since new they weren't in my
budget. The Vega was a nice lathe, but I didn't like the tool rests, and
the tail stock was secured with a bolt, and hence you needed to keep a
wrench around and moving it in and out was a pain.
So I ended up with the Record. It is very quiet and smooth running.
It was easy to set up, and is very heavy for a bench top unit. I put it on
the lathe table I built from the ShopNotes article, and without the sand in
the table yet I have virtually no vibration. I have been very happy with
the lathe, but I should add that I'm not very experience at lathe work,yet.
The drawbacks I can find so far are these:
1) No reversing switch, but I'll add one myself.
2) the head and tailstock use a #1 Morse Taper. And the main
problem with the #1 isn't the size, but the lack of
accessories. Most everything is made for a #2 MT. Although
Craft Supplies has everything I want in a #1 MT, I'd like
to be able to shop around. BTW, Sears lathes also use
#1 MT so that maybe an additional source.
Other than the above two items, I'm completely happy with my lathe.
Incidentally, I picked mine up at Woodworking Unlimited(ShopSmith),
while they were have one of the 20% off lathe accessories sale, and they
had Precision Chucks already marked down to $58 and with the sale it was $42.
The store here in the Portland are still had a couple, but I can't speak for
any of the others, since they are closing them out.
Kim.
--
---------------------------------------------------------------
| Kim Poindexter -- Mentor Graphics Corp. |
| Email address(that works) : kim_poi...@mentorg.com |
---------------------------------------------------------------
| In the race to be better or best, don't forget |
| the joy of just being.... |
---------------------------------------------------------------
Jon Parry
I have adjusted the bearing about three / four times on mine. This was just
for the experience / practise. You would prob. only need to adjust after about
100 or so hrs of real heavy use. The design Record have used make it a very
simple and quick operation. (2 mins or so) The oil pot is above the bearing
/ spindle, I just drop a couple of drops of oil in before I turn on.
FWIW I read a test report in one of the European mags last night on turning
tools and the Record HSS spindle set (I think it was the CHS6 set?)
came out joint top with a 5 in quality and a 4.5 on price.
Jon.
god...@spiers.enet.dec.com
Jon,
Thanx VERY much for your input.
Dave Tardiff
For those considering purchasing this lathe,
(JimG, I tried to mail this to you, but my mailer
doesn't grok your address...) there's a loaded one
up in the Chelmsford Shopsmith store that's closing.
It's marked $749, and it looks like it comes with
all sorts of extras. (That price is with the 25% off
already figured.) Judging from the prices you've been
discussing, I think this is a steal of a price.
Please, someone buy this before I do! My credit card
will thank you...
Kim Poindexter
I was kind of in the same boat, until I took a turning class from
Russ Zimmerman(Putney, Vt). I learned a fair amount about lathes
there. I did consider the Powermatic, General, and larger Delta
lathes as well. It was impossible for me to actually see the
General lathe here in Portland, and I can't tell enough from most
of the brochures to make a decision, I need to actually see the
product, especially if I'm shelling out $1K or more. From the
brochures, Powermatic, General and Delta are fine lathes, but I don't
believe there strength is lathes. For my money, the Myford or the
Record are the best buy for the amateur/hobbiest/part-time professional
user. BTW, Russ sells the Myford, so I can understand his bias there,
although it is a very nice lathe, but he also likes the Record.
Kim Poindexter
|>
|> BTW have you had to adjust the head stock bearing yet? How often do you
|> oil it?
I've probably got about 15 hours use on the machine so far, and haven't
needed to adjust it yet. I had one problem where a clicking sound developed
and I was going to adjust it then, but the problem turned out to be that one
of the pulleys worked loose and was rubbing on the inside of the housing which
was as simple as moving the pulley and tightening an allen screw. In the
process though I did take apart the bearing assembly, put it back together,
with no trouble at all. Oiling is done usually when your finishing up for
the session, and it's only a few drops. Although you do need to add oil
as soon as you get it.
|>
|> >>...is very heavy for a bench top unit.
|> How did it come packed...assembled or in pieces?
|>
The lathe comes in a wooden crate with plywood sides. It is basically in
one piece, with the exception of tool rests, chisels, etc... It took my
neighbor and I to lift it out of the box and set it on the table. It is
a 200lb unit, all by itself.
|> >> I put it on
|> >>the lathe table I built from the ShopNotes article, and without the sand in
|> >>the table yet I have virtually no vibration.
|> This is what I planned to do (except make one of my own design).
|>
I used the ShopNotes article as a guide(as with any plan I ever come across),
for the CL3 the table needed to be
about 6' long, I also made my top and legs out of MDF since it is heavier.
|> I was concerned about the lack of accessories but I thought sonce Im going
|> to be doing vanilla spindle turing it shouldnt make loads of difference.
|> Also the local supplier has most of the Record accessoies (chucks,
|> centers, etc).
The record accessories are (as they say in Oregon) spendy. And I've seen
it written that the 3/4"x16tpi headstock is unique to Record and hence you
need Record accessories...BULL. Sears lathes use the same threading
arrangement as well as #1 MT. So Sears is a source(although I never go
there), Craft Supplies in Utah and in England are also good sources, and
beyond that it is slim pickens.
Michael Bergman
going out of business sale) and have not yet had a chance to set it
up. What's this about a ShopNotes article? What is ShopNotes?
ki...@groucho.mentorg.com (Kim Poindexter) writes:
>I used the ShopNotes article as a guide(as with any plan I ever come across),
> for the CL3 the table needed to be
>about 6' long, I also made my top and legs out of MDF since it is heavier.
--Mike Bergman
--
--Mike Bergman Voice: (617) 271-0230
Bill Thomas
Karl Hoff
to do with the publication.
Karl
Keith Lukaszek
:^O___I think the Shopsmith people publish the Shopnotes Magazine.
Change Shop to Wood and you've got it. ShopNotes is a sister
publication to WoodSmith magazine.
--
Keith T. Lukaszek
luka...@elec.mid.gmeds.com
Kim Poindexter
|> I just got one (at the former ShopSmith, now former something else,
|> going out of business sale) and have not yet had a chance to set it
|> up. What's this about a ShopNotes article? What is ShopNotes?
|>
|> ki...@groucho.mentorg.com (Kim Poindexter) writes:
|>
|> >I used the ShopNotes article as a guide(as with any plan I ever come across),
|> > for the CL3 the table needed to be
|> >about 6' long, I also made my top and legs out of MDF since it is heavier.
|>
It is a bi-monthly publication. I believe issue #9 has the lathe
table, but I could be mistaken.
Steve Bussell
>ki...@groucho.mentorg.com (Kim Poindexter) writes:
Mike, Shopnotes is a mag. published by the same people that put out
Woodsmith. It has nothing at all to do with Shopsmith.
STeve Bussell
Leutenegger Scott T
Hi all,
I have just finished hand-cutting all the joints for a childs chair and
am still not satisfied with my tenons. The problem is that I do not have
the ability (yet) do be dead on with my saw (I use a 8" gents saw, a 12"
tenon saw form garret wade is on back order, sigh) and hence the cheeks are
angled slightly so they do not join flush to the piece with the mortise.
I have read you should use a shoulder plane and am considering buying
one. (of course $130 for a special purpose plane is a bit much!)
So, my questions are:
1) Do any of you cut mortise and tenons by hand?
2) If so, do you use a shoulder plane?
3) If I do get a shoulder plane, do you cut the checks short of
the scribed line (using a cutting or marking gauge) and then
plane to the scribed line?
4) Do you have any specific reccomendations for which shoulder plane?
5) Am I just being impatient, will my eye hand cooridination eventually
get good enought to make a shoulder plane unnecessary?
Note, my mortises have vastly improved after asking one of the craftsmen
at Colonial Williamsbug what I was doing wrong. I was using a mortise
chisel and went all the way to the ends of the mortise as I cut, then
when I pried the waste out I would munge up the ends of the mortise.
The (obvious, though not to me) trick is to make the mortise smaller
than you want, then after you have the depth you want go to the ends
and shave them to the full width with the chisel. Makes sense.
On a related note, the DeWitt Gallery of Decorative Arts in Colonial
Williamsburg currently has an exhibit on tools. Very nice display
of antigue colonial and also 19th and 20th century hand tools.
Of course, what I would like is to be able to try them out.....
---Scott
--
Scott T. Leutenegger Phone: 804-864-8003
Mail Stop 132c FAX: 804-864-6134
NASA Langley Research Center
Hampton, VA 23681-0001 email: le...@icase.edu
Kim Poindexter
|> ShopNotes is a magazine published by the folks who produce Woodsmith.
|> It is a bi-monthly publication. I believe issue #9 has the lathe
|> table, but I could be mistaken.
|>
Actually, it is issue #10.
Kim.--
god...@spiers.enet.dec.com
Scott,
>>So, my questions are:
>>
>>1) Do any of you cut mortise and tenons by hand?
>>
>>2) If so, do you use a shoulder plane?
Depends. Pieces that are small (Im assuming yours are) dont lend themself
well to planing. The 'trick' is to dry assemble the pieces and 'kerf them in'.
That is, where a shoulder mets the face of the other member you saw out the gap
by sawing between the face and shoulder. Each time you do this it takes out a
small bit which causes the joint to eventually close up. Wider pieces like
aprons lend themself to planing.
>>
>>3) If I do get a shoulder plane, do you cut the checks short of
>> the scribed line (using a cutting or marking gauge) and then
>> plane to the scribed line?
This is one method. A chisel would be easier to use than a plane though.
>>
>>4) Do you have any specific reccomendations for which shoulder plane?
But of course! ;^) If you can afford it find a good (tight mouth) Norris,
Spiers (my favorite), Matheison, etc. stuffed shoulder plane. (stuffed =
metal bod filled with wood) If you cant/dont afford that Record or Clico
are real good. Woodcraft, GW sell both.
>>
>>5) Am I just being impatient, will my eye hand cooridination eventually
>> get good enought to make a shoulder plane unnecessary?
mega :^) Same thing I thought when I went thru this. M&Ts are lots more
difficult than others joints to do well (like DTs). Pratice, pratice, practice!
It cant be bought except with time and effort. Stick with it and youll be
making nice M&Ts before you know it.
>>Note, my mortises have vastly improved after asking one of the craftsmen
>>at Colonial Williamsbug...
Theyre really very helpful and willing to share their knowledge. Atleast thats
my experience. Last time I was there I asked LOTS of questions took the
urniture in the display area all apart, asked more questions, studied the
disassemvbled pieces, asked more questions. Like a pig in mud I was. ;^)
JimG
Abacus
Always cut TO the line (which should probably be scribed, unless your pencil
is very sharp) on the waste side, never through it. It's no big deal if the
tenon does not touch the very bottom of the mortise since there's no glue
strength there; the shoulders of the tenon, however, should flatly contact
the area around the mortise. And, of course, the tenon cheeks must firmly
contact the sides of the mortise (that's where you'll get all your glue
strength).
I have never needed a shoulder plane for cleaning up tenon shoulders; if
you've got a sharp bench chisel with a flat back (which you should have
anyway!) that'll do the job.
Finally, there being no substitute for practice, I hate to sound like I'm
advocating that every problem can be solved with a new tool. However, if you
are not wedded to your present saw, I STRONGLY recommend a Japanese fine
tooth, thin kerf hand saw with a back band for cutting tenons and dovetails.
Like all Japanese saws, these cut on the pull stroke; in my experience, this
makes it easier to maintain a straight line. Another advantage is that the
blade can be made thinner and the teeth harder than any western backsaw,
because the blade does not cut in compression, and so is not subject to
buckling. The fine tooth saws (some marketed as "Razor saws") have a pitch of
28 tpi; they cut an extraordinarily fine kerf with almost perfectly smooth
surfaces. Perhaps the only disadvantage of these saws is that they tend to
leave dust in your cutting path (another consequence of cutting on the pull).
I blow a lot; the superior control and smoothness of the cut more than make
up for it.
Good luck!
-Clifford Baron
Patrick Leach
|>
|> Hi all,
|>
|> I have just finished hand-cutting all the joints for a childs chair and
|> am still not satisfied with my tenons. The problem is that I do not have
|> the ability (yet) do be dead on with my saw (I use a 8" gents saw, a 12"
|> tenon saw form garret wade is on back order, sigh) and hence the cheeks are
|> angled slightly so they do not join flush to the piece with the mortise.
|> I have read you should use a shoulder plane and am considering buying
|> one. (of course $130 for a special purpose plane is a bit much!)
|>
Welcome, fellow Java man! What's the secret grunt? And don't give me
none of that Piltdown jive talk. ;^)
|> So, my questions are:
|>
|> 1) Do any of you cut mortise and tenons by hand?
Yup. Almost exclusively.
|> 2) If so, do you use a shoulder plane?
Yup, when I care that I have joint I want to be ass tight as a duck's
butt.
|> 3) If I do get a shoulder plane, do you cut the checks short of
|> the scribed line (using a cutting or marking gauge) and then
|> plane to the scribed line?
What I do is cut to the line. But I do it using the little tricks commonly
used to make spiffy shoulders. Don't use a pencil to do the layout. That's
my rule #1 for cutting clean shoulders. Use a striking knife, or a sharp
chisel. Let the flat side ride along the square, and keep the bevel toward
the waste. Squeeze the square tightly to the wood to prevent it from moving
while laying out. Put firm, even pressure on the layout tool so you slice
the wood keenly and deeply. This is a crucial step to get clean shoulders.
From the waste side of the layout line, run a paring knife parallel to the
layout line removing an angled piece of waste to form a sorta V-shape (like a
V made perpendicular, where one leg is the shoulder line). You now a little
track in which your saw can ride when making the rest of the shoulder cut.
Some guys backcut the shoulder ever so slightly (I'm talking like a degree or
two).
Following this above practice should get you very respectable shoulders.
You should only use the shoulder plane as the final step for any custom
fitting. Where you might typically use it is on frame construction where
the molding is integral to the frame. You must pare the molding from the
stile (typically), which is often done freehand with the chisel. Here, any
slight imperfections on the stile can have a custom fit on the mating rail
by using the shoulder plane. Of course, shoulder planes have all sorts of
applications - blind dovetails is a very good use - but you must keep in
mind that it's a plane designed to do fine cross-grain trimming, not general
planing to a dimension or line.
|> 4) Do you have any specific reccomendations for which shoulder plane?
Norris, but of course. Spiers, Mathieson, Mosely, Slater, Ward, etc. are
also just as good. These are vintage planes, which cost a few pounds, but
their price reflects their utility and precision more than their collecting
appeal (for the more common models). Failing the availibility of these
makers, or the availibility of cash, Clifton makes some OK stuff. However,
you have to be careful with their planes from what I've seen. I once had a
look at some at Woodcraft, and some of the mouths were bigger than mine,
which is something to avoid (heh, heh...). Record makes them, too, and from
what I can tell they are nice planes. However, when put next to a vintage
wood-stuffed English plane, they pale in comparison (in my eye).
|> 5) Am I just being impatient, will my eye hand cooridination eventually
|> get good enought to make a shoulder plane unnecessary?
You can survive without a shoulder plane. They are definitely a specialty
item. But they are very nice to have, when you have to do the work they can
perform. If you have some spare cash, burning a hole in your pocket, go for
it. I don't think you'll regret it.
--
--------------------------------------------------------------------------
Patrick Leach
Just say At least that's what I tell myself.
etc.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------
Mark Williams
Despite the glitzy nickle plating, the 90, 92 and 93 are good tools.
The 93 is feally fine for use on tenons and would be my pick.
The 90 is a little small, but the bullnose feature is nice for cleanup.
They range from $50-80 from the discounters, like Whole Earth Access.
These are English made, but have the virtue that you can still get
blades for them. These will need some tuning, as they truly are not
as well made as the old ones. (Flatten base, hone blade as a minimum).
Many of the wood infill shoulder planes I have seen have been expensive
junk, abused beyond usefulness. Check any wood infill plane for a tight
square mouth and a tight wedge. The English planes dry out over here and
the wedge usually needs work to fit. Unless you are really comfortable with
checking these tools over, pass on them, or depend on a reliable dealer
with a money back policy.
M21...@mwvm.mitre.org
ma...@hpcss01.cup.hp.com (Mark Williams) writes:
>
>There are still good shoulder planes made by Stanley for under $100.
>Despite the glitzy nickle plating, the 90, 92 and 93 are good tools.
>The 93 is feally fine for use on tenons and would be my pic
>
>junk, abused beyond usefulness. Check any wood infill plane for a tight
>square mouth and a tight wedge. The English planes dry out over here and
>the wedge usually needs work to fit. Unless you are really comfortable with
>checking these tools over, pass on them, or depend on a reliable dealer
>with a money back policy.
not compare to an antique British shoulder plane. The fine cut and comfortable
feel of a British shoulder plane is not to be compared with a Stanley 93.
As to your observations about condition of these planes, what's the point.
Obviously, with anything you want to buy a well cared for example, be it a
car or a shoulder plane. And of course, I have serveral examples for sale,
that are in perfect original condition, and don't require any "tuning".
I have never seen a Rosewood or Ebony wedge shrink so much that it needed
refitting, and I have handled dozens of these planes. If anyone is interested
in one, send me a direct E-mail.