Pocket Hole Question - Using The Wrong Size Screw

[DerbyDad03]

I'm going to be making a frame from 5/4 x 6 stock for a pot rack.

(Sorry for the long link, I can't access tinyurl at the moment)

http://2.bp.blogspot.com/-ZeON_DhAwpY/VPOSstcXihI/AAAAAAAAFyU/5Q-wMvqCAgo/s1600/farm1.jpg

I have a full box of Kreg 1.25" screws (recommended for 3/4" actual size
stock) but 1.5" screws are recommended for 1" actual size stock. I'm only
making half the frame shown (single pipe) so I only need 8, maybe 12
screws.

Based on the stud locations, the rails will be screwed to the studs,
which means that the weight of the pots will be borne by the stiles,
and therefore the screws (and glue?). (I don't think long rails and
short stiles will look as good.)

Is there a way to "fool" the jig/collar settings so that the 1.25" screws
will hold securely? If I set the jig for 1" stock and the move the collar
up a 1/8" (1/4"?) wouldn't that allow the shorter screw to bite into the
stile more?

I know we're only talking about a few bucks for some 1.5" screws, so this
is more of a learning experience than a major cost savings effort.

Thanks!

[dpb]

On 03/03/2016 8:41 AM, DerbyDad03 wrote:
...

> I know we're only talking about a few bucks for some 1.5" screws, so this
> is more of a learning experience than a major cost savings effort.

I think there's the Domino you've always wanted!!! <VBG>

--

[DerbyDad03]

Oh, I have a Domino but I don't have the right size tenons either.

<Even bigger VBG>

[Leon]

You have given a lot if information but I'm still confused.

BUT then you not have that cool appearance.

So to clarify, are you asking about pocket hole screws to simply join
the rails and stiles that happen to be 1" thick rather than 3/4" thick?

If so, the 1.25" screws will provide just as much bite in 1" wood as
they do in 3/4" thick wood. The difference will be that they will not
enter the exit and enter the mating pieces in the center. The most
strength will be when the screw enters the wood at the woods strongest
location, the center. If you change the depth setting you gain in one
area and loose in another. Lower the jig position and the screw enters
and exits closer to center but you have less meat in the pocket hole
side of the joint and you weaken that point, if there was any stress the
screw would likely pull through the end grain of the picket hole side of
the joint.

In this setting where the wood is for appearances and not really adding
anything to strength this will probably be OK to do.

Alternatively and given the prices of copper, the price of the correct
size screw should not be much of a consideration. Some local providers
offer pocket hole screws by weight so just buying how many you need
might save you a dollar to two. ;~)

[Leon]

The wrong sized tenon is going to be better than the wrong sized screw
and a good chance better than the right sized screw. ;~)

[dpb]

Indeed... :)

For real for the actual object I'd probably use an open mortise/tenon or
just a half-lap...but I have neither a pocket-hole jig nor a Domino :)

Or, actually for that if were going to "go quick" there is a spot I
might just drag the old biscuit joiner out for...no setup to speak of
and plenty strong for the purpose.

--

[Swingman]

On 3/3/2016 8:41 AM, DerbyDad03 wrote:
> I have a full box of Kreg 1.25" screws (recommended for 3/4" actual size
> stock) but 1.5" screws are recommended for 1" actual size stock. I'm only
> making half the frame shown (single pipe) so I only need 8, maybe 12
> screws.
>

> Is there a way to "fool" the jig/collar settings so that the 1.25" screws
> will hold securely? If I set the jig for 1" stock and the move the collar
> up a 1/8" (1/4"?) wouldn't that allow the shorter screw to bite into the
> stile more?

Pocket hole joinery has been around long before Kreg, and their
proprietary screws came along.

Keep in mind that a component property of proprietary screws, like
screws for Kreg's jigs, is "profit".

As long as you use screws that are designed for the "material" and the
"job" (IOW, don't use a longer "drywall" screws, because they don't have
the necessary sheer force for the job), simply use any longer wood screw
you want that will fit in the hole.

--
eWoodShop: www.eWoodShop.com
Wood Shop: www.e-WoodShop.net
https://www.google.com/+eWoodShop
https://plus.google.com/+KarlCaillouet/posts
http://www.custommade.com/by/ewoodshop/
KarlCaillouet@ (the obvious)

[Leon]

On 3/3/2016 10:12 AM, Swingman wrote:
> On 3/3/2016 8:41 AM, DerbyDad03 wrote:
>> I have a full box of Kreg 1.25" screws (recommended for 3/4" actual size
>> stock) but 1.5" screws are recommended for 1" actual size stock. I'm only
>> making half the frame shown (single pipe) so I only need 8, maybe 12
>> screws.
>>
>> Is there a way to "fool" the jig/collar settings so that the 1.25" screws
>> will hold securely? If I set the jig for 1" stock and the move the collar
>> up a 1/8" (1/4"?) wouldn't that allow the shorter screw to bite into the
>> stile more?
>
> Pocket hole joinery has been around long before Kreg, and their
> proprietary screws came along.
>
> Keep in mind that a component property of proprietary screws, like
> screws for Kreg's jigs, is "profit".
>
> As long as you use screws that are designed for the "material" and the
> "job" (IOW, don't use a longer "drywall" screws, because they don't have
> the necessary sheer force for the job), simply use any longer wood screw
> you want that will fit in the hole.

Typically pocket hole screws are self tapping. I would be concerned
with any longer screw splitting the mating piece. and predrilling a
pilot hole in the correct location and angle into the mating piece might
be difficult.

BUT if you clamp the pieces together and use the pocket hole as a guide
for a pilot in the mating piece you would probably be good to go! ;~)

[Leon]

The "biscuit" joiner would absolutely be a good choice.

[DerbyDad03]

On Thursday, March 3, 2016 at 10:50:30 AM UTC-5, Leon wrote:
> On 3/3/2016 8:41 AM, DerbyDad03 wrote:
> > I'm going to be making a frame from 5/4 x 6 stock for a pot rack.
> >
> > (Sorry for the long link, I can't access tinyurl at the moment)
> >
> > http://2.bp.blogspot.com/-ZeON_DhAwpY/VPOSstcXihI/AAAAAAAAFyU/5Q-wMvqCAgo/s1600/farm1.jpg
> >
> > I have a full box of Kreg 1.25" screws (recommended for 3/4" actual size
> > stock) but 1.5" screws are recommended for 1" actual size stock. I'm only
> > making half the frame shown (single pipe) so I only need 8, maybe 12
> > screws.
> >
> > Based on the stud locations, the rails will be screwed to the studs,
> > which means that the weight of the pots will be borne by the stiles,
> > and therefore the screws (and glue?). (I don't think long rails and
> > short stiles will look as good.)
> >
> > Is there a way to "fool" the jig/collar settings so that the 1.25" screws
> > will hold securely? If I set the jig for 1" stock and the move the collar
> > up a 1/8" (1/4"?) wouldn't that allow the shorter screw to bite into the
> > stile more?
> >
> > I know we're only talking about a few bucks for some 1.5" screws, so this
> > is more of a learning experience than a major cost savings effort.
> >
> > Thanks!
> >
> >
>
> You have given a lot if information but I'm still confused.
>
> BUT then you not have that cool appearance.
>
> So to clarify, are you asking about pocket hole screws to simply join
> the rails and stiles that happen to be 1" thick rather than 3/4" thick?

Yes, but using screws that are made for 3/4", not 1".

>
> If so, the 1.25" screws will provide just as much bite in 1" wood as
> they do in 3/4" thick wood. The difference will be that they will not
> enter the exit and enter the mating pieces in the center. The most
> strength will be when the screw enters the wood at the woods strongest
> location, the center. If you change the depth setting you gain in one
> area and loose in another. Lower the jig position and the screw enters
> and exits closer to center but you have less meat in the pocket hole
> side of the joint and you weaken that point, if there was any stress the
> screw would likely pull through the end grain of the picket hole side of
> the joint.
>
> In this setting where the wood is for appearances and not really adding
> anything to strength this will probably be OK to do.

Except that in this setting the stiles *are* actually supporting the weight
of the pots. The rails will be screwed to the studs but the floor flanges
for the bar will be bolted to the stiles. That means that the bar and
pots will be putting downward and outward force on the joint itself.

>
> Alternatively and given the prices of copper, the price of the correct
> size screw should not be much of a consideration. Some local providers
> offer pocket hole screws by weight so just buying how many you need
> might save you a dollar to two. ;~)

As I mentioned, it wasn't really about the price, it was more about getting
an understanding related to the screw placement, which you have provided.
Thanks!

[DerbyDad03]

Yes, I did consider the biscuit joiner and may go with that tool.

As I said, this is more of a learning experience question and Leon
- despite his confusion ;-) - actually addressed the technical aspects
of the screw placement.

[-MIKE-]

The bottom line is, if it holds it holds. I use those Kreg settings as
a general guideline to get me close, then I do test fittings. And yes,
you can tweak the setting to suit your needs. The settings on the
drilling jig are to ensure the screw will be centered on the edge of the
board, so that's usually good to leave where it is.

I've changed the depth stop more times than not to tweak the fit/hold.
If you're using hardwoods, you can drill a little deeper. Obviously a
narrower cross-section of hardwood will hold the screw better than a
narrower cross-section of say, 2x4 pine.

Test fit on scraps. Go ahead and glue. If you have long enough clamps,
forget the screws and just glue it. I've used pocket screws as clamps
for long glue-ups for which I haven't enough clamps and they're great
for that. But if you're using both as a "belt & suspenders" process,
well, you'd save time by just tossing the screws in the garbage.


--

-MIKE-

"Playing is not something I do at night, it's my function in life"
--Elvin Jones (1927-2004)
--
http://mikedrums.com
mi...@mikedrumsDOT.com
---remove "DOT" ^^^^ to reply

[Swingman]

On 3/3/2016 10:36 AM, Leon wrote:
> On 3/3/2016 10:12 AM, Swingman wrote:


>> As long as you use screws that are designed for the "material" and the
>> "job" (IOW, don't use a longer "drywall" screws, because they don't have
>> the necessary sheer force for the job), simply use any longer wood screw
>> you want that will fit in the hole.
>
>
> Typically pocket hole screws are self tapping. I would be concerned
> with any longer screw splitting the mating piece. and predrilling a
> pilot hole in the correct location and angle into the mating piece might
> be difficult.

There was no such thing a "self taping" pocket hole screw when the
method was first devised, including the following few hundred years of
success with the method thereafter.

If you're concerned with splitting, and you must have a longer screw for
the job as the OP seems to prefer, danger of splitting is very quickly,
easily, and effectively mitigated:

Simply use one of the Kreg "self taping" screws first, then back it and
replace with the preferred longer screws.

BTDT, many times ... ;)

[Leon]

On 3/3/2016 11:13 AM, Swingman wrote:
> On 3/3/2016 10:36 AM, Leon wrote:
>> On 3/3/2016 10:12 AM, Swingman wrote:
>
>
>>> As long as you use screws that are designed for the "material" and the
>>> "job" (IOW, don't use a longer "drywall" screws, because they don't have
>>> the necessary sheer force for the job), simply use any longer wood screw
>>> you want that will fit in the hole.
>>
>>
>> Typically pocket hole screws are self tapping. I would be concerned
>> with any longer screw splitting the mating piece. and predrilling a
>> pilot hole in the correct location and angle into the mating piece might
>> be difficult.
>
> There was no such thing a "self taping" pocket hole screw when the
> method was first devised, including the following few hundred years of
> success with the method thereafter.

Well there is that. I wonder if maybe back then the holes were drilled
with both pieces in place. I have done that on countless fence jobs
when attaching rails between the posts. And then one day I bought a
framing nailer with self tapping nails. ;~)

>
> If you're concerned with splitting, and you must have a longer screw for
> the job as the OP seems to prefer, danger of splitting is very quickly,
> easily, and effectively mitigated:
>
> Simply use one of the Kreg "self taping" screws first, then back it and
> replace with the preferred longer screws.
>
> BTDT, many times ... ;)
>

DOH! LOL

[dpb]

On 03/03/2016 10:50 AM, DerbyDad03 wrote:
> On Thursday, March 3, 2016 at 11:02:51 AM UTC-5, dpb wrote:

...

>> For real for the actual object I'd probably use an open mortise/tenon or
>> just a half-lap...but I have neither a pocket-hole jig nor a Domino :)
>>
>> Or, actually for that if were going to "go quick" there is a spot I
>> might just drag the old biscuit joiner out for...no setup to speak of
>> and plenty strong for the purpose.

...

> Yes, I did consider the biscuit joiner and may go with that tool.
>
> As I said, this is more of a learning experience question and Leon
> - despite his confusion ;-) - actually addressed the technical aspects
> of the screw placement.

I'm just not familiar-enough w/ the way the Kreg jigs adjust to have
strong input there; just that as Leon was didn't seem to me there was
any correlation between the _thickness_ of the material vis a vis screw
length...but thought perhaps I didn't either understand the real
question or there was something I didn't see about the way the jigs operate.

For 5/4 material it'd be a snap to even put two biscuits at roughly
thirds depth.

--

[DerbyDad03]

On Thursday, March 3, 2016 at 12:13:53 PM UTC-5, Swingman wrote:
> On 3/3/2016 10:36 AM, Leon wrote:
> > On 3/3/2016 10:12 AM, Swingman wrote:
>
>
> >> As long as you use screws that are designed for the "material" and the
> >> "job" (IOW, don't use a longer "drywall" screws, because they don't have
> >> the necessary sheer force for the job), simply use any longer wood screw
> >> you want that will fit in the hole.
> >
> >
> > Typically pocket hole screws are self tapping. I would be concerned
> > with any longer screw splitting the mating piece. and predrilling a
> > pilot hole in the correct location and angle into the mating piece might
> > be difficult.
>
> There was no such thing a "self taping" pocket hole screw when the
> method was first devised, including the following few hundred years of
> success with the method thereafter.
>
> If you're concerned with splitting, and you must have a longer screw for
> the job as the OP seems to prefer, danger of splitting is very quickly,
> easily, and effectively mitigated:

Actually, the OP (me) was "preferring" the exact opposite - I was trying to
determine if it would be OK to use the *shorter* screws in thicker wood.

But once again, I have to add my caveat: This question was posed in the
effort to learn more about pocket holes and screw positioning as opposed
to actually preferring one length of screw over another.

In the end, I'll probably use the biscuit joiner anyway, which was always
on my list of options.

[Swingman]

On 3/3/2016 11:39 AM, DerbyDad03 wrote:
> Actually, the OP (me) was "preferring" the exact opposite - I was trying to
> determine if it would be OK to use the*shorter* screws in thicker wood.

Mea culpa, but it damned sure sounded like you were contemplating buying
_longer_ screws:

On 3/3/2016 8:41 AM, DerbyDad03 wrote:

> I know we're only talking about a few bucks for some 1.5" screws, so this
> is more of a learning experience than a major cost savings effort.

In any even, hope there was at least a bit of "learning experience" in
there somewhere. ;)

[DerbyDad03]

...and *then* pocket screws, along with a gusset on the back, an L bracket on
the inside corner and diagonal bracing.

That oughta hold a pot or two. ;-)

[DerbyDad03]

On Thursday, March 3, 2016 at 12:46:00 PM UTC-5, Swingman wrote:
> On 3/3/2016 11:39 AM, DerbyDad03 wrote:
> > Actually, the OP (me) was "preferring" the exact opposite - I was trying to
> > determine if it would be OK to use the*shorter* screws in thicker wood.
>
> Mea culpa, but it damned sure sounded like you were contemplating buying
> _longer_ screws:
>
> On 3/3/2016 8:41 AM, DerbyDad03 wrote:
> > I know we're only talking about a few bucks for some 1.5" screws, so this
> > is more of a learning experience than a major cost savings effort.

That line was meant to indicate that I wasn't trying to cheap out by
not buying a box of longer screws, simply that by asking the question
I might learn something.

While I didn't really expect anyone in this group to say "Quit being so
cheap and just buy the longer screws", I'm tainted by the reactions
folks have in other forums where "attack mode" is the standard. :-(

>
> In any even, hope there was at least a bit of "learning experience" in
> there somewhere. ;)
>

As always!

[Leon]

And Epoxy!

Or faux paint the wood and attach pot holder directly to the wall and
studs. l~)

[Swingman]

On 3/3/2016 11:25 AM, Leon wrote:

> Well there is that. I wonder if maybe back then the holes were drilled
> with both pieces in place.

Watching my maternal grandfather repairing furniture was the first time
I'd seen it done; and again in my short stint with that cabinetmaker in
England, although there the holes were hand drilled by one of the
apprentices ... neither used a jig of any type.

Both drilled the pilot hole first, starting in the end grain, with a
smaller bit and at an angle (the desired angle being marked on an edge
as a visual guide), then drilled a larger, shallow hole, mostly
perpendicular to the face, and intersecting the first, pilot hole.

Easier to do than describe, but still took about the same skill as toe
nailing.

A jig, a la Kreg, definitely makes it easier and more aesthetic. But,
since it is usually done where it won't be seen, the two hole method
works just fine in a pinch ... and nice to know when there is no jig around.

[DerbyDad03]

If the studs were centered behind the range, I would do that. Unfortunately
they are not, so I have to add a board to the surface of the wall before
I can mount any kind of rack. Once that became evident, we chose to switch
from this:

http://s7d9.scene7.com/is/image/BedBathandBeyond/5328014146288p?$478$

to this:

http://2.bp.blogspot.com/-ZeON_DhAwpY/VPOSstcXihI/AAAAAAAAFyU/5Q-wMvqCAgo/s1600/farm1.jpg

[Swingman]

On 3/3/2016 12:12 PM, Swingman wrote:
> Both drilled the pilot hole first, starting in the end grain, with a
> smaller bit and at an angle (the desired angle being marked on an edge
> as a visual guide), then drilled a larger, shallow hole, mostly
> perpendicular to the face, and intersecting the first, pilot hole.

Forgot to add that a rat tail file/rasp was used on the edge of the
larger hole where the screw driver was used, and at the same angle as
the pilot hole, to make room for the screw driver to drive the screw at
the proper angle.

If you ever get a chance to see a pocket hole done on an antique in such
a manner, you will recognize the same shape that the Kreg jig leaves
immediately.

[OFWW]

Couldn't you have just mounted a board to attach the pot holder to?
Thus keeping your first plan of attack?

[DerbyDad03]

Well, yes, and that was the plan, but just for a few minutes.

SWMBO and I were trying to decide if we wanted to use a narrow board
for just the top of the brackets and spacers for the shelf, or a larger
board, big enough to act as a backer for the whole rack.

We decided to start looking for on-line images to see what others had
done with their pot-racks (we couldn't be only ones that needed a mounting
board). That's when we ran across the frame style rack and SWMBO said "Return
the other one, I like this one better."

She likes the variation associated with the wood, the galvanized floor
flanges, the copper pipe and the brass pot hooks that I've ordered.

Besides, I'll get to say "I made that". :-)

[OFWW]

Well DD#3, I was having a real problem understanding the question, and
I think you have already said it was answered.

But I would like to try here just to see if I finally have a lock on
the understanding of it all.

On a Kreg jig they set up certain parameters for each length of screw
depending on the wood sizes. The side you drill the enlarged hole into
is the only thing you can play with in order to sink the screw in
further on the piece you are attacking. Problem is, if there is a
preset 1/2" gap between the shoulder of the screw and the piece you
are attaching it too, and you shorten that any appreciable distance,
say 1/4" then yes the screw will go in further, but the total strength
decreases depending on the hardness of the wood you inserted the screw
into. Shortening the "gap" weakens the joint considerably. I tried it
at home just to see.

The other thing that make a difference is the type of screw, the one
designed for hardwoods, or for softwoods.

The other thing that can destroy the strength of the joint is having
the clutch set too tight on a drill motor or using an impact drill,
they will many times pull the screw in a lot further than necessary
thus shortening the "gap" between the shoulder for the screw and the
exit portion of that piece of wood.

And yes, it would have been far easier to draw a picture than say all
of this. :)

Hope I was clear enough and didn't muck things up.

[DJ Delorie]

My experience with kreg jigs...

The configuration of the kreg jig determines where the screw exits the
end of the wood - it's important that the screw be centered, although
*how* important is TBD. For 1" stock in a 3/4" configuration I wouldn't
worry about it, it's only off by 1/8", but you could shim it with 1/4"
stock and use the 1.5" configuration if you cared.

Changing the configuration changes how far the top of the drill guide is
from the end of the wood, so you adjust the stop on the drill to
compensate. You can move the stop up for shorter screws (deeper hole)
or down for longer screws (shallower hole), although if you move it down
too far the screw head will stick out of the pocket. Proper depth is
enough to get the screw head totally in the pocket, and enough that all
the threads are in the "far" piece of wood (i.e. no cross threading).

The length of the screw needed is determined more by the size of the
wood you're screwing *into*, not the size of the wood you're *drilling*.
As long as the screw head is inside the pocket and exits near the
center, a longer screw just means you have more sticking out to screw
into the other piece of wood.

Shear strength of the joint (force perpendicular to the screws) depends
on the number of screws and their gauge, use more or heavier screws to
add strength in this direction.

Pull strength of the joint (force trying to pull the screws out) depends
on the number and length of screws, type of thread, and wood type. You
can make up for shorter screws by using more of them. Screw length is
limited by both the width of the piece screwing into (so it doesn't pop
out the other side) *and* the thickness (so it doesn't pop out the face).

A too-deep pocket will limit pull strength to the shear strength of the
wood itself - failure would remove a cylinder of wood from the remainder
of the hole under the screw head, rather than pull out the threaded part
from the other piece. I suspect it would have to be a *really* deep
hole to see this happen.

[Leon]

On 3/3/2016 12:26 PM, Swingman wrote:
> On 3/3/2016 12:12 PM, Swingman wrote:
>> Both drilled the pilot hole first, starting in the end grain, with a
>> smaller bit and at an angle (the desired angle being marked on an edge
>> as a visual guide), then drilled a larger, shallow hole, mostly
>> perpendicular to the face, and intersecting the first, pilot hole.
>
> Forgot to add that a rat tail file/rasp was used on the edge of the
> larger hole where the screw driver was used, and at the same angle as
> the pilot hole, to make room for the screw driver to drive the screw at
> the proper angle.
>
> If you ever get a chance to see a pocket hole done on an antique in such
> a manner, you will recognize the same shape that the Kreg jig leaves
> immediately.
>

LOL, I recall pocket holes in the legs of the furniture that my parents
had when I was little enough to crawl under the coffee table. I'm
thinking 1960 ish.

[Electric Comet]

On Thu, 03 Mar 2016 16:51:27 -0500
DJ Delorie <d...@delorie.com> wrote:

> A too-deep pocket will limit pull strength to the shear strength of
> the wood itself - failure would remove a cylinder of wood from the
> remainder of the hole under the screw head, rather than pull out the
> threaded part from the other piece. I suspect it would have to be a
> *really* deep hole to see this happen.

these are the types of failures i have seen with these
at least in real wood

in particle board anything can fail and i have seen both kinds of failures

[OFWW]

On Thu, 3 Mar 2016 13:20:46 -0800 (PST), DerbyDad03

I can understand that.

If I may suggest when you buy the copper, get rigid copper, not by the
foot off a roll of soft drawn. Do not buy rigid water pipe, get at
least rigid hard drawn copper Type K which is even thicker. anything
less than type L for rigid refrigeration piping will kink and dent
quite easily, and after you install it, shine it up with fine steel
wool and then lacquer it with a few coats to keep in shiny. You can
polish the brass fittings and even the galv. flange and spray them to
keep them pretty.

L is less expensive than K.