Oil/Water Based? Varathane/Poly/Stain? Which is Which?
Rev Chuck
An...@Anon.Com wrote:
>
> Man, I am confused and getting more so. The different types of
> stains/finishes available are numerous, and to add to all of it some are oil,
> some are water based. Like the readers of this group didn't already know this
> =)
>
> Some questions:
>
> Is varathane oil based or water based?
Neither. It's Flecto's brand of plastic resin finish, solvent based.
> Is urathane oil or water based?
Solvent based. The "water-based" product is an emulsified (very finely and
thoroughly stirred into a physically, not chemically, suspended mixture)
blend of water, latex binder, urethane resin particles, and a trace of
petroleum (mineral spirits) solvent.
> Is Polyurethane the same as urethane?
Two different names for the exact same product.
> If not, is Polyurethane oil or water based?
>
> Is Minwax's Polycrylic topcoat oil or water based?
Never used it.
> Is Minwax's Polycrylic water or oil based?
>
> Is Minwax's Wood Finish Pickle Stain #260 Oil Based (I assume it is because
>
> the label says that it contains mineral spirits)
Expect it to be an oil-based product. Does the label list linseed or any
other oil?
> Aren't you supposed to use a water based topcoat on a water based stain? And
> an oil based topcoat on an oil based stain? If so, and the Minwax
> Pickle Stain is oil based why does the can label advise against using an
> oil based topcoat with the Pickle Stain? (says it will cause ambering,
> but aren't you supposed to use oil with oil?) God, where is that jumbo
> can of Tylenol...
So long as the water-based stain has dried, you can use any topcoat.
Ambering would be most common where you've used urethane. Nature of the
beast.
> Does the term "water-soluble" mean "water-based"?
Water soluble means water actually dissolves the product. Water based means
water will carry off the product without necessarily dissolving it. For your
purposes, the two terms are interchangeable.
> If I'm refinishing my Oak kitchen cabinets and:
>
> a. I strip the old top-coat off
> b. Sand
> c. Apply an oil-based Stain (Minwax Pickle)
> d. Apply a water-based Topcoat (Minwax Polycrylic)
>
> At which points should I use mineral spirits to clean up? Before
> applying the oil-based stain so that all the stripper residue is
> neutralized? Or after the Stain has dried in order to clean up the
> leftover, to guard against the stain chemically reacting with the
> topcoat and ambering?
Mineral spirits are useful as a prefinishing degreaser and cleaner. The
solvent dissolves grease, so it will remove grime and fingerprints, rendering
the surface oil and grease free, as the labels of every finish made require.
Ambering is a photochemical process. To avoid it, use a non-poly finish
that the maker says won't amber. You can't keep poly from ambering with
any surface pretreatment. You can _reduce_ it somewhat by applying _less_
finish. More than two coats of full strength (aka nondiluted) poly is
overkill for interior woodwork, anyway.
> That last bit is what has happened to me, or rather, my kitchen cabinets. I
> used the Minwax Pickle Stain with the recommended topcoat, Minwax Polycrylic.
> I stained the wood and allowed plenty of drying time but I DID NOT clean up with
> Mineral Spirits. The stain looked beautifully, better than I imagined it would.
> However, not long afterwards (a day or two?), it turned amber on me and now
> looks terrible. The next section over had been stained but I'd not got round to
> topcoating it. That's been a couple of months now and the stain looks exactly
> as it did when I laid it on: perfect.
I suspect that the pickle stain is intended to be used as a finish by itself.
An...@anon.com
Man, I am confused and getting more so. The different types of
stains/finishes available are numerous, and to add to all of it some are oil,
some are water based. Like the readers of this group didn't already know this
=)
Some questions:
Is varathane oil based or water based?
Is urathane oil or water based?
Is Polyurethane the same as urethane?
If not, is Polyurethane oil or water based?
Is Minwax's Polycrylic topcoat oil or water based?
Is Minwax's Polycrylic water or oil based?
Is Minwax's Wood Finish Pickle Stain #260 Oil Based (I assume it is because
the label says that it contains mineral spirits)
Aren't you supposed to use a water based topcoat on a water based stain? And
an oil based topcoat on an oil based stain? If so, and the Minwax
Pickle Stain is oil based why does the can label advise against using an
oil based topcoat with the Pickle Stain? (says it will cause ambering,
but aren't you supposed to use oil with oil?) God, where is that jumbo
can of Tylenol...
Does the term "water-soluble" mean "water-based"?
If I'm refinishing my Oak kitchen cabinets and:
a. I strip the old top-coat off
b. Sand
c. Apply an oil-based Stain (Minwax Pickle)
d. Apply a water-based Topcoat (Minwax Polycrylic)
At which points should I use mineral spirits to clean up? Before
applying the oil-based stain so that all the stripper residue is
neutralized? Or after the Stain has dried in order to clean up the
leftover, to guard against the stain chemically reacting with the
topcoat and ambering?
That last bit is what has happened to me, or rather, my kitchen cabinets. I
used the Minwax Pickle Stain with the recommended topcoat, Minwax Polycrylic.
I stained the wood and allowed plenty of drying time but I DID NOT clean up with
Mineral Spirits. The stain looked beautifully, better than I imagined it would.
However, not long afterwards (a day or two?), it turned amber on me and now
looks terrible. The next section over had been stained but I'd not got round to
topcoating it. That's been a couple of months now and the stain looks exactly
as it did when I laid it on: perfect.
Is it likely that, as a result of my failure to clean up with Mineral Spirits
after stain application, that a chemical reaction occurred between the stain and
the topcoat causing ambering?
I've posted about this before and have received some interesting and
informative responses. Made a couple of trips to Lowe's/Home Depot in order to
look into some alternatives.I'm beginning to experiment on some scraps in order
to find out what might work.
One thing that definitely confused me: (Barb, if you read this, please don't
be offended: I'm rather confused as you may have noticed and seek
clarification: Your site has been very helpful to me in many ways) On Barb's
Building and Repair Page: Hardwood Floors in the "Oil vs Water" paragraph
http://pages.prodigy.com/woodflr.barb/wdrefin.htm#tools
Barb says:
|Flecto produces it's Diamond Floor finish, which is water based and very user friendly. They also produce their Professional Floor Finish, which
|is oil based. Which product to use? Well, both have advantages and disadvantages. If this will be your first time refinishing a floor, I recommend
|staying with the water based product. You will get fantastic results and a long lasting clear varathane finish.
From that I got the impression that Varathane was Water-Based. But, tonight,
on my latest Home-Depot junket, I bought a gallon of Flecto Varathane and it
says that it's Oil Based! Inner peace, inner peace, inner peace.......
Here's my dilemma: I'm 100% satisfied with the Minwax Pickle Stain's
appearance on my kitchen cabinets. The problem's the topcoat, and I'm getting
conflicting information regarding the proper type to use. I really want to
stick with the Minwax stain rather than go through another cycle of trial and
error: it gets expensive and it's certainly frustrating.
If you think the ambering problem is the result of a lack of clean-up with
Mineral Spirits then that's good news: I can take back this one gallon can of
Flecto Varathane and I'll be $35.00 richer.
If that's not the problem and I have to start from scratch all over again and
that means I have two sections of cabinetry that I'll have to strip and sand
back down to the bare wood, not something I'm looking forward to.
Well, I'm going to have to strip one of them anyway, the one that ambered.
Well, that's enough ranting. On to Minwax's website and some reading. Any
advice you can provide will be appreciated.
Thanks for your help,
Frank
stranger
Timothy
Frank
I don't have time to answer all of your questions. but I can help some.
on kitchen cabinets I prefer to use sherwin williams brand of wiping stain.
It is oil based. and can be thinned with mineral spirits. For the finish I
use pre-catalized lacquer 65 sheen. This can also be purchased from sherwin
williams. This lacquer is good for areas that contain moisture such as
kitchens and baths. It should not hurt your pickled finish. Lacquer is not
oil based or water based. You can purchase an areasol can of it for about
1.98 to test it. It will not be pre-catalized but it'll work for a test.
Also lacquer is a clear finish unlike poly. which has a amber tint to it.
Lacquer is not as durable as poly but on the vertical surfaces of kitchen
cabinets it is sufficient. I have been building cabinets for many years and
never had a complaint about the finish.
You are on the right track with testing your ideas on scrap wood.
Regards,
Timothy Laws think...@juno.com
An...@Anon.Com wrote in message <35061bb0...@news.theshop.net>...
> That last bit is what has happened to me, or rather, my kitchen cabinets.
I
>used the Minwax Pickle Stain with the recommended topcoat, Minwax
Polycrylic.
>I stained the wood and allowed plenty of drying time but I DID NOT clean up
with
>Mineral Spirits. The stain looked beautifully, better than I imagined it
would.
>However, not long afterwards (a day or two?), it turned amber on me and now
>looks terrible. The next section over had been stained but I'd not got
round to
>topcoating it. That's been a couple of months now and the stain looks
exactly
>as it did when I laid it on: perfect.
>
> Is it likely that, as a result of my failure to clean up with Mineral
Spirits
>after stain application, that a chemical reaction occurred between the
stain and
>the topcoat causing ambering?
>
> http://pages.prodigy.com/woodflr.barb/wdrefin.htm#tools
>
Mike G.
Howdy Frank
Lst me start at the bottom here and work up. if you use a stain then
use a a finish that uses the same base (ie water and water, oil and
oil), unless you are spraying your finish, when you try to appl;y the
finish over the stain the finish will dissolve some of the stain and
you will lift it with your brush. So, no, generally you don't use like
over like. It can be done but is extrememly difficult.
One sure way to get around this is to use a sealer coat (around a 5
lb cut) of shellac over the stain. Shellac is alcohol based and will
not lift the stain and seal it from lifting with your finish.
To add to the confusion let me add that you may find aniline dyes more
to your liking. They come in three flavors, Alcohol base, water based,
and oil base. This gives you a wider option in not using like to like
bases. Not to mention the fact that unlike stain (which isn't really,
It's more an extrememly thin paint) which contains pigments stain
soaks into the wood and dyes the wood without obscuring the grain.
If the procuct contains mineral spirits it is oil based. If the
directions include sanding after the first coat TO KNOCK DOWN THE
GRAIN or recommends wetting the surface and sanding before use chances
are it is water based.
As for your questions on particular products, since I am of the
opinion that polyurathane and its like are the work of the devil (a
small joke here all. so don't hit the panic button,. it's probably
only the work of some minor imp in the devil's domain), I don't use
the stuff. As for water based finishes, well, I guess I am still a
dinosaur and have yet to see any compelling reason to change to them
(other then water based aniline dyes).
> That last bit is what has happened to me, or rather, my kitchen cabinets. I
>used the Minwax Pickle Stain with the recommended topcoat, Minwax Polycrylic.
>I stained the wood and allowed plenty of drying time but I DID NOT clean up with
>Mineral Spirits. The stain looked beautifully, better than I imagined it would.
>However, not long afterwards (a day or two?), it turned amber on me and now
>looks terrible. The next section over had been stained but I'd not got round to
>topcoating it. That's been a couple of months now and the stain looks exactly
>as it did when I laid it on: perfect.
>
> Is it likely that, as a result of my failure to clean up with Mineral Spirits
>after stain application, that a chemical reaction occurred between the stain and
>the topcoat causing ambering?
>
a thought
Mike G. (mtco...@marsweb.com)
Lolo Mt.
URL http://www.marsweb.com/mtcowboy
Miller, David James
An...@Anon.Com wrote:
>
> Man, I am confused and getting more so. The different types of
> stains/finishes available are numerous, and to add to all of it some are oil,
> some are water based. Like the readers of this group didn't already know this
> =)
>
> Some questions:
>
> Is varathane oil based or water based?
can be either...
>
> Is urathane oil or water based?
can be either....
>
> Is Polyurethane the same as urethane?
>
> If not, is Polyurethane oil or water based?
either...
>
> Is Minwax's Polycrylic topcoat oil or water based?
polycrylic is Minwax's trade name for their water based polyurethane
>
> Is Minwax's Polycrylic water or oil based?
water
>
> Is Minwax's Wood Finish Pickle Stain #260 Oil Based (I assume it is because
>
> the label says that it contains mineral spirits)
read the can.... their water based stains are clearly labelled as
water based. Mineral spirits is a strong indication of oil based.
>
> Aren't you supposed to use a water based topcoat on a water based stain? And
> an oil based topcoat on an oil based stain? If so, and the Minwax
> Pickle Stain is oil based why does the can label advise against using an
>
> oil based topcoat with the Pickle Stain? (says it will cause ambering,
> but aren't you supposed to use oil with oil?) God, where is that jumbo
> can of Tylenol...
>
According to what I have read in books and on cans, as long as each coat
is fully cured, you can top coat with something else. I routinely use
polycrylic of oil based pigment stains - with out yeloowing or problems.
Oil based poly will have an amber tint, which darkens with time. Water
based is clear, and after a couple of years, I have not seen yellowing
at all yet.
> Does the term "water-soluble" mean "water-based"?
>
> If I'm refinishing my Oak kitchen cabinets and:
>
> a. I strip the old top-coat off
> b. Sand
> c. Apply an oil-based Stain (Minwax Pickle)
> d. Apply a water-based Topcoat (Minwax Polycrylic)
>
> At which points should I use mineral spirits to clean up? Before
> applying the oil-based stain so that all the stripper residue is
> neutralized? Or after the Stain has dried in order to clean up the
> leftover, to guard against the stain chemically reacting with the
> topcoat and ambering?
Clean-up usually means the brushes.... I apply the stain with a rag or
a brush, then wipe down with a clean rag. Let dry for a minimum of
24 hours, then top coat with polycrylic.
I usually pretreat with conditioner, prior to the stain. The
conditioner is an overpriced mix of mineral spirits and linseed oil...
>
> That last bit is what has happened to me, or rather, my kitchen cabinets. I
> used the Minwax Pickle Stain with the recommended topcoat, Minwax Polycrylic.
> I stained the wood and allowed plenty of drying time but I DID NOT clean up with
> Mineral Spirits. The stain looked beautifully, better than I imagined it would.
> However, not long afterwards (a day or two?), it turned amber on me and now
> looks terrible. The next section over had been stained but I'd not got round to
> topcoating it. That's been a couple of months now and the stain looks exactly
> as it did when I laid it on: perfect.
>
How long did you let it dry? What was the temperature and humidity?
The only warning I have seen on Minwax has to do with red-mahogony
stain, which warns never to top coat with polycrylic...
> Is it likely that, as a result of my failure to clean up with Mineral Spirits
> after stain application, that a chemical reaction occurred between the stain and
> the topcoat causing ambering?
>
> I've posted about this before and have received some interesting and
> informative responses. Made a couple of trips to Lowe's/Home Depot in order to
> look into some alternatives.I'm beginning to experiment on some scraps in order
> to find out what might work.
>
> One thing that definitely confused me: (Barb, if you read this, please don't
> be offended: I'm rather confused as you may have noticed and seek
> clarification: Your site has been very helpful to me in many ways) On Barb's
> Building and Repair Page: Hardwood Floors in the "Oil vs Water" paragraph
>
> http://pages.prodigy.com/woodflr.barb/wdrefin.htm#tools
>
> Barb says:
>
> |Flecto produces it's Diamond Floor finish, which is water based and very user friendly. They also produce their Professional Floor Finish, which
> |is oil based. Which product to use? Well, both have advantages and disadvantages. If this will be your first time refinishing a floor, I recommend
> |staying with the water based product. You will get fantastic results and a long lasting clear varathane finish.
>
> From that I got the impression that Varathane was Water-Based. But, tonight,
> on my latest Home-Depot junket, I bought a gallon of Flecto Varathane and it
> says that it's Oil Based! Inner peace, inner peace, inner peace.......
Both water and oil based are probably available..... You just got the
wrong one.
I have heard the oil is still considered more durable, and better
choice for floors.....
Andrew Barss
Rev Chuck <cd...@erolls.com> wrote:
: > Is urathane oil or water based?
: Solvent based. The "water-based" product is an emulsified (very finely and
: thoroughly stirred into a physically, not chemically, suspended mixture)
: blend of water, latex binder, urethane resin particles, and a trace of
: petroleum (mineral spirits) solvent.
<snip>
: Ambering would be most common where you've used urethane. Nature of the
: beast.
Chuck:
Are you suggesting that ambering will occur with water-based
polyurethane/polycritic/whatever? In my experience, this is very much
*not* the case. Traditional, solvent/oil-based polyurethane is amber in
tint, which deepends in time; non-repairable, while water-base is clear,
with no ambering, and moderately repairable.
-- Andrew Barss