I want...To never sharpen a chisel again in my life
Patrick Riley
thrill out of sharpening chisels? Come on, a chisel is just a knife
with a narrow blade and a bevel on one side only. Do you sharpen your
own utility knives? The razor you use to shave with? The knives you
use to cut your steak? Even kitchen knives from expensive German
manufacturers are mostly of the never-needs-sharpening variety. So why
are you back in 1902 when it comes to chisels? Why aren't the
manufacturers addressing this issue?
As usual I have some suggestions:
1) the replaceable tip chisel:
Presuming that it's too expensive to just throw out a chisel when it
gets blunt, why not make the tip replaceable. Take a current chisel,
preferably one that's a square billet of steel with a sloped business
end, and machine a slot in the bottom about one inch long the
thickness of a utility knife blade. Drill two or three fine-threaded
screw holes in the area of the slot. Take a utility knife blade and
sharpen it one side only like a Japanese sashimi knife; cut it to the
size of the slot you've cut in the bottom of the chisel and drill and
countersink two or three screw holes to match up with the holes in the
chisel body. Sell the chisel and packs of replacement blades.
You don't like that suggestion...try
2) The pencil sharpener solution aka the Drill Doctor solution aka the
Chef's Choice system.
One of the problems with chisels and planes and saw blades and knives
is that you can never tell if they're sharp or not (unless you happen
to be an old guy with a foreign-sounding name who can just look at a
chisel and just know, don't ask how) so why tax your brain. Instead
let science or physics do the job for you. How does a pencil sharpener
work? I have no idea. You stick the pencil in this little hole and
push until the light comes on. Presto, it's sharp. Er, why can't we do
the same thing for a chisel? Too simple?
Well Drill Doctor seems to have managed it for drill bits. This is one
of the few sharpening devices I haven't wasted my money on (buy cheap
bits and throw them out after each (or a few) use(s)) but I think the
idea is something like a pencil with a special holder which lines the
bit up with a rotating stone. Put your chisel in the right carrier and
let Chisel Doctor do the hard part. One on every workbench always
plugged in.
Chef's Choice is a sharpening system for kitchen knives which has,
depending on the model a series of slots in the top (coarse, medium,
fine) and you simply draw the knife through the slot before you use
your non-never-needs-sharpening knife to debone the chicken. Works
well. No intelligence required and certainly no sore finger tips or
water spraying everywhere. Woodworker's choice would be the same idea
with different slots into which you shove the chisel.
Oh, and BTW make the chisels with a crank in the handle end so I don't
bang my knuckles every time I'm scraping some dried glue out of a
piece of furniture.
--
Patrick Riley
Chris Johnson
Patrick Riley wrote:
> I see the thread on Chisels and Sharpening. Guys, do you get some
> thrill out of sharpening chisels? Come on, a chisel is just a knife
> with a narrow blade and a bevel on one side only. Do you sharpen your
> own utility knives? The razor you use to shave with? The knives you
> use to cut your steak? Even kitchen knives from expensive German
> manufacturers are mostly of the never-needs-sharpening variety. So why
> are you back in 1902 when it comes to chisels? Why aren't the
> manufacturers addressing this issue?
>
For some people, there is real satisfaction that comes from doing a job
right, and that includes getting your tools to a fantastically sharp edge.
Don't grumble about it if some people like to do it. You can leave if you want to,
or set your reader to ignore the thread.
I spent a fair amount of time and money, learning the "correct" and "traditional"
methods used to sharpen Japanese swords, which is not sharpening them in
the western sense, but totally reworking the entire surface of the blade with
the result being an appallingly sharp edge that can cleanly cut a piece of paper
hanging by a thread, with a blade between two and three feet long. I greatly
enjoyed the entire learning process and did a passable job of restoring my rusty
and bent old Japanese WWII vintage sword. It is indeed sharp, too.
As for your suggestions....chisels aren't drills. A chisel that was only as sharp
as your best drill is a chisel that is overdue for resharpening because it won't
cut worth a damn.
There is NO automated system that can grind chisels to an edge which compares
to what you can do by hand using the scary sharp method, or even more advanced
methods. So, since there is no superior solution, there's no demand for it.
We use what works, and scary sharp is a good starting point that will deliver a fine
edge in short order and with minimal expense.
As for replaceable tips...how much are they going to cost, how sharp are they really
going to be compared to my best hand sharpened chisels, how long will they last,
and will it be worth it to toss out and replace slightly dull steel tips when they can be
touched up in a minute or two? At the very least, this suggestion shows contempt
for conservation and recycling. I'll pass, not that it would likely be an economically
advantageous concept anyway.
CJ
GTO69RA4
and my chisels/plane irons. What's the big deal? A few minutes every now and
then to keep stuff sharp won't kill you. That's unless you use your cutting
tools for digging or screwdriving. There's no "issue" I see in any way.
Ever tried to do woodworking with a steak knife sharpened with one of those
gimmicks?
The disposable mentality is what seems to be playing a large part in the
lowering quality of things.
GTO(John)
>I see the thread on Chisels and Sharpening... <snip>
Dave Balderstone
Let's see how many you hook.
djb
--
Remove *** to reply by email.
"The power of accurate observation is commonly called cynicism by those who
have not got it." -- G.B. Shaw
Charles Self
snip of body--already answered by many others
>Oh, and BTW make the chisels with a crank in the handle end so I don't
>bang my knuckles every time I'm scraping some dried glue out of a
>piece of furniture.
Gooseneck chisels have been available for a long, long time...probably hundreds
of years. You need to become more familiar with the entire field before making
suggestions--or asking questions.
Charlie Self
"We will never give Bill Clinton the opportunity to be the President of the
United States."
-- Vice President Dan Quayle (9/19/92)
Andy Dingley
> Guys, do you get some thrill out of sharpening chisels?
No, I hate sharpening.
Fortunately, since I discovered Usenet I've also discovered just how
many sorts of chisel I don't have. A combination of relentless
shopping for new ones, coupled with spending all day with a keyboard
instead of a plane, means that my chisels just no longer seem to go
blunt ! Must be because I've shopped for such sooper-dooper ones that
they don't do it any more.
Japanase swords are admittedly tricky though. They're so much longer
than all of my stones that I never managed with them, until I got that
belt grinder....
Grant P. Beagles
mitch
The long scary-sharp process is performed once when new, and perhaps once
every 18 to 24 months after that.
No problem, I'm glad to do it.
Mitch
Patrick Riley <p_r...@pipeline.com> wrote in message
news:0o02iukd6keolfbii...@4ax.com...
Chris Johnson
Andy Dingley wrote:
>
>
> Japanase swords are admittedly tricky though. They're so much longer
> than all of my stones that I never managed with them, until I got that
> belt grinder....
You make me want to vomit! :)
The stones used for Japanese swords measure in the general range of
2x6 inches to 3x8, and the final polishing stones are about the size of
your thumbnail and are very thinly sliced and glued to a paper backing
with lacquer. When it's time to acutally use these finger stones, they
do their job in a surprisingly short time.
CJ
dadiOH
>> Do you sharpen your
>> own utility knives? The razor you use to shave with? The knives you
>> use to cut your steak?
Yes, I do. Even my (straight) razors.
dadiOH
Lawrence Wasserman
--
Larry Wasserman Baltimore, Maryland
lwas...@charm.net
Mike Reed
anyway.
Patrick Riley <p_r...@pipeline.com> wrote in message news:<0o02iukd6keolfbii...@4ax.com>...
> I see the thread on Chisels and Sharpening. Guys, do you get some
> thrill out of sharpening chisels?
Yes. Almost as much thrill as I get arguing with people who have
opinions about stuff they've never used.
> Come on, a chisel is just a knife
> with a narrow blade and a bevel on one side only. Do you sharpen your
> own utility knives?
No, do you chop mortises with your own utility knives?
If you want to make things really easy, you should just buy your
furniture instead of making it.
> The razor you use to shave with?
No.
> The knives you
> use to cut your steak?
Yes.
> Even kitchen knives from expensive German
> manufacturers are mostly of the never-needs-sharpening variety.
Never-needs-sharpening is a myth. Those knives aren't sharp out of the
box, and they get more dull from there. One of my best friends bought
the Henkels variety of these knives the same year (1997) I bought
Henkels 5-Star. This year, his knives would no longer slice through
tomatos, and they couldn't be sharpened. Henkels stood by their
product, and gave him full retail credit towards any Henkels products.
He upgraded to a set of their "real" knives.
On the flip side, I actually had to take my Henkels chef's knife to
the crock sticks for the first time this year -- after 5 years of use.
Burnishing it on the provided steel has yielded a perfectly sharp
knife until that point, and it does again now.
There are people still using (daily) Henkels knives that have been in
their families since the 1700s. These are not the
"never-needs-sharpening" type. The never-needs-sharpening knives won't
even outlast an American car.
> So why
> are you back in 1902 when it comes to chisels?
Because it works and is fast.
> Why aren't the
> manufacturers addressing this issue?
Because they know there is no better solution.
> As usual I have some suggestions:
>
> 1) the replaceable tip chisel:
>
> Presuming that it's too expensive to just throw out a chisel when it
> gets blunt, why not make the tip replaceable. Take a current chisel,
> preferably one that's a square billet of steel with a sloped business
> end, and machine a slot in the bottom about one inch long the
> thickness of a utility knife blade. Drill two or three fine-threaded
> screw holes in the area of the slot. Take a utility knife blade and
> sharpen it one side only like a Japanese sashimi knife; cut it to the
> size of the slot you've cut in the bottom of the chisel and drill and
> countersink two or three screw holes to match up with the holes in the
> chisel body. Sell the chisel and packs of replacement blades.
>
> You don't like that suggestion...try
I don't like it. Try chopping a 1" deep mortise in hickory with
something like that and you're likely to injure yourself. You need one
continuous massive piece of steel.
> 2) The pencil sharpener solution aka the Drill Doctor solution aka the
> Chef's Choice system.
<snip>
Those systems don't sharpen to handtool standards. Pencil sharpeners
are good enough for pencils. If they made it any sharper the lead
(graphite) would just break off anyway (as it usually does when you
first start writing). Drill bits don't need to be as sharp as chisels
because their motion is mechanically restrained. They can't jump
around as they go through the work. Show me one CHEF who has made the
CHOICE to make a living using knives sharpened on the "Chef's Choice"
system. That system saves no time over a steel, and the knives are
ground with every use, shortening the useful life of the knife. Plus,
the knives aren't as sharp as with a steel.
> Oh, and BTW make the chisels with a crank in the handle end so I don't
> bang my knuckles every time I'm scraping some dried glue out of a
> piece of furniture.
Yeah, nobody's ever made one of those:
http://tinyurl.com/jk0
-Mike
Ron Hock
Then, do like I do and drag them behind the truck on a trip into town
and back. Adjust the pull-string so the bevels will come out right and
off you go. If you do it at night they make really pretty sparks.
There's a new section of road nearby that's concrete. I use it as a
strop.
Patrick Riley wrote:
>
> I see the thread on Chisels and Sharpening. Guys, do you get some
> thrill out of sharpening chisels? Come on, a chisel is just a knife
> with a narrow blade and a bevel on one side only. Do you sharpen your
> own utility knives? The razor you use to shave with? The knives you
> use to cut your steak? Even kitchen knives from expensive German
> manufacturers are mostly of the never-needs-sharpening variety. So why
> are you back in 1902 when it comes to chisels? Why aren't the
> manufacturers addressing this issue?
>
> As usual I have some suggestions:
>
[much needed snippage]
--
Ron Hock
HOCK TOOLS -- http://www.hocktools.com
Howard
> Yes, I do. Even my (straight) razors.
It's too much fun to pass up! I sharpen everything in sight. If you do it
right, it isn't that tedious a job. Once you get a good edge on it doesn't
take much to maintain it.
--
Cheers,
Howard
----------------------------------------------------------
Working wood in New Jersey - how...@NOSPAMinthewoodshop.org
Visit me in the woodshop - www.inthewoodshop.org
Eric Lund
> thrill out of sharpening chisels? Come on, a chisel is just a knife
> with a narrow blade and a bevel on one side only. Do you sharpen your
> own utility knives?
>The razor you use to shave with?
Electric, so no
>The knives you use to cut your steak?
Yes.
>Even kitchen knives from expensive German
> manufacturers are mostly of the never-needs-sharpening variety.
B.S.
BTW: Never Needs Sharpening knives are Never Actually Sharp knives. They
have serrated edges to saw the material into submission. With chisels,
you're not trying to saw meat and vegetables, you're trying to smoothly
slice wood.
>So why
> are you back in 1902 when it comes to chisels? Why aren't the
> manufacturers addressing this issue?
They are. They use cryogenic techniques and advanced metallurgy to create
harder steel that holds an edge longer.
>
> As usual I have some suggestions:
>
> 1) the replaceable tip chisel:
>
> Presuming that it's too expensive to just throw out a chisel when it
> gets blunt, why not make the tip replaceable. Take a current chisel,
> preferably one that's a square billet of steel with a sloped business
> end, and machine a slot in the bottom about one inch long the
> thickness of a utility knife blade. Drill two or three fine-threaded
> screw holes in the area of the slot. Take a utility knife blade and
> sharpen it one side only like a Japanese sashimi knife; cut it to the
> size of the slot you've cut in the bottom of the chisel and drill and
> countersink two or three screw holes to match up with the holes in the
> chisel body. Sell the chisel and packs of replacement blades.
No strength behind the blade. The flex alone would cause it to skip over
the surface instead of slicing smoothly. Creating something massive enough
to cut smoothly would be economically impractical.
>
> You don't like that suggestion...try
>
> 2) The pencil sharpener solution aka the Drill Doctor solution aka the
> Chef's Choice system.
>
> One of the problems with chisels and planes and saw blades and knives
> is that you can never tell if they're sharp or not (unless you happen
> to be an old guy with a foreign-sounding name who can just look at a
> chisel and just know, don't ask how) so why tax your brain.
Get a tool sharp once (yourself), see how much better it works, and you'll
either understand or you shouldn't be allowed to touch tools anymore.
>Instead
> let science or physics do the job for you. How does a pencil sharpener
> work? I have no idea. You stick the pencil in this little hole and
> push until the light comes on. Presto, it's sharp. Er, why can't we do
> the same thing for a chisel? Too simple?
>
A sharp pencil's not sharp, it's not steel, and it doesn't need to cut wood.
The pencil sharpener is a grinder, the equivalent of the very first stage of
sharpening.
> Well Drill Doctor seems to have managed it for drill bits. This is one
> of the few sharpening devices I haven't wasted my money on (buy cheap
> bits and throw them out after each (or a few) use(s)) but I think the
> idea is something like a pencil with a special holder which lines the
> bit up with a rotating stone. Put your chisel in the right carrier and
> let Chisel Doctor do the hard part. One on every workbench always
> plugged in.
>
A sharp drill is not sharp. It doesn't have to create a super smooth
finished surface. In fact, that would be counterproductive in may drilled
holes.
> Chef's Choice is a sharpening system for kitchen knives which has,
> depending on the model a series of slots in the top (coarse, medium,
> fine) and you simply draw the knife through the slot before you use
> your non-never-needs-sharpening knife to debone the chicken. Works
> well. No intelligence required and certainly no sore finger tips or
> water spraying everywhere. Woodworker's choice would be the same idea
> with different slots into which you shove the chisel.
>
You don't use the Chef's Choice on Never Really Sharp knives. You use it on
knives that actually need sharpening. I suppose it does OK, to kitchen
standards, but I assume you can do much better by hand. I've never seen one
in action. I certainly hope it's better than the crappy ones they used to
put on the back of can openers.
> Oh, and BTW make the chisels with a crank in the handle end so I don't
> bang my knuckles every time I'm scraping some dried glue out of a
> piece of furniture.
>
As Charles said, gooseneck chisels. Nothing new there.
>
> --
> Patrick Riley
Charles Self
>
>Then, do like I do and drag them behind the truck on a trip into town
>and back. Adjust the pull-string so the bevels will come out right and
>off you go. If you do it at night they make really pretty sparks.
Yup. What kind of spark pattern do the cryogenic treated plane irons kick out?
Mike
> Patrick RIley asks:
>
> snip of body--already answered by many others
>
> >Oh, and BTW make the chisels with a crank in the handle end so I don't
> >bang my knuckles every time I'm scraping some dried glue out of a
> >piece of furniture.
>
> Gooseneck chisels have been available for a long, long time...probably hundreds
> of years. You need to become more familiar with the entire field before making
> suggestions--or asking questions.
Since this nice fella brought up the subject of sharpening, I thought
I'd check out your Woodcraft article, "Edgy Stuff," that was
advertised in the latest newsletter. The URL leads to a blank page.
Did you miss the deadline Charlie? ;^> Or maybe you're working with
Woodcraft on designing these new-fangled disposable chisel blades,
thereby making the article obsolete.
Seriously though, something ain't right. Could be a problem on my end
but I suspect the Woodcraft webmaster should look into it just in
case.
Cheers,
Mike (who _really_ needs to stop procrastinating and get busy
sharpening a lot of new old tools)
Charles Self
>> Gooseneck chisels have been available for a long, long time...probably
>hundreds
>> of years. You need to become more familiar with the entire field before
>making
>> suggestions--or asking questions.
>
>Since this nice fella brought up the subject of sharpening, I thought
>I'd check out your Woodcraft article, "Edgy Stuff," that was
>advertised in the latest newsletter. The URL leads to a blank page.
>Did you miss the deadline Charlie? ;^> Or maybe you're working with
>Woodcraft on designing these new-fangled disposable chisel blades,
>thereby making the article obsolete.
>
>Seriously though, something ain't right. Could be a problem on my end
>but I suspect the Woodcraft webmaster should look into it just in
>case.
>
It's there. I'll let Mike know in the a.m. that you're having problems. How
about slip me an e-mail at charli...@woodcraft.com telling me what ISP you
have, etc. He always asks me that kind of thing when I transfer problems to
him.
Mark
this post, there are some things to think about -
I do sharpen most of the things in the house with an edge, but my wife
has observed that my chisels are a lot sharper than the kitched knives
- I do have to admit that I have a higher standard for a chisel or a
plane iron than I do for some of the other edges around.
We are part way to the disposable edge already - my planer (Ridgid
13") uses disposable blades. I seem to remember a stanley plane that
had a disposable blade - but I don't think that they were very
popular.
CW
> own utility knives?
Yes.
>The razor you use to shave with?
Yes
The knives you
> use to cut your steak?
Yes.
>Even kitchen knives from expensive German
> manufacturers are mostly of the never-needs-sharpening variety. So why
> are you back in 1902 when it comes to chisels?
Never-needs- sharpening knives are a myth and the result of marketing. If
you use it, it will get dull. There are less and less people that know what
sharp is all the time and even fewer that know how to sharpen one (talked to
someone the other day that was under the impression that once a knife was
dull, you trough it out and buy a new one).
The chisel sharpening machine is perfectly feasible (the Tormek is probably
the closest thin to it presently available). Of course, many people will
tell you that a machine can not do as good a job. This is not true. The
belief that stones are superior is simple tradition. For as long as edge
tools have been around, when they got dull, you rubbed them on a rock.
Consequently, today when your tools get dull, you rub them on a rock. We do,
today, have better rocks but still a rock. If you had told someone 500 years
ago that people would be manufacturing rocks one day, he would surely think
that that's what your head contained.
Larry Jaques
pixels to the effect:
Paddykins obviously doesn't quite GROK the
ScarySharp(tm) thing yet. Time'll tell.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
* Scattered Showers My Ass! * Insightful Advertising Copy
* --Noah * http://www.diversify.com
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Roy Smith
> If you had told someone 500 years ago that people would be manufacturing
> rocks one day, he would surely think that that's what your head contained.
Not so sure about that. People have been making ceramics, bricks, and
concrete for thousands of years. They're pretty close to artificial
rocks.
rob
Snip
> 2) The pencil sharpener solution
Okay I tried it with a 1/4" bench chisel. It wouldn't turn very well.
Snip 2
> Oh, and BTW make the chisels with a crank in the handle end
The pencil sharpener handle made a very convienient crank.
Eric Lund
probably
> the closest thin to it presently available). Of course, many people will
> tell you that a machine can not do as good a job. This is not true. The
> belief that stones are superior is simple tradition. For as long as edge
> tools have been around, when they got dull, you rubbed them on a rock.
> Consequently, today when your tools get dull, you rub them on a rock. We
do,
> today, have better rocks but still a rock. If you had told someone 500
years
> ago that people would be manufacturing rocks one day, he would surely
think
> that that's what your head contained.
>
>
tolerances. The kicker is that you end up buy a $4899.55 chisel grinder.
It's probably not economically feasible to produce a machine to such high
tolerances for the home market with current technology. I did say probably.
Andy Dingley
> Andy Dingley wrote:
>
> > Japanase swords are admittedly tricky though. They're so much longer
> > than all of my stones that I never managed with them, until I got that
> > belt grinder....
>
> You make me want to vomit! :)
Did I ever explain my technique for tuning a guitar, by steam bending ?
8-)
CW
Have been thinking of doing just that.
--
CW
KC7NOD
"Eric Lund" <Eric...@west.boeing.com> wrote in message
news:GynEM...@news.boeing.com...
Chris Johnson
CW wrote:
If the extremely fine quality blades in disposable razors can be made by automated
machines (and they are), then certainly it should be possible to make a machine
that can sharpen chisels to a standards high enough to scare the hell out of ANY of
us, including me. But I don't think the machine would be particularly cheap.
It'd have to sharpen in several stages including a final buffing stage, for one.
CJ
Dr. Rev. Chuck, M.D., P.A.
>
> "Patrick Riley" <p_r...@pipeline.com> wrote in message
> news:0o02iukd6keolfbii...@4ax.com..
> > own utility knives?
>
> Yes.
I've been using the same #11 X-Acto blade for the past 15 years. It
gets dull, I bring it up to shaving sharpness in 60 seconds with a
few licks on a black Arkansas stone followed by a light stropping
on an old belt. Odd that they never come _truly_ sharp fresh from
the package. A shame, since the steel is actually very good quality.
CW
sharpen up great.
--
CW
KC7NOD
"Dr. Rev. Chuck, M.D., P.A." <cdub@_REMOVETHIS_erols.com> wrote in message
news:3D22A202.4CD7@_REMOVETHIS_erols.com...
J&K Copeland
They do. Foley Belsaw (that I know of) makes machines that will put any
kind of edge you could possible desire. (How long it will hold that edge is
dependent on the quality of the steel).
However, it still requires an experienced operator that knows what they're
doing, to achieve optimum results.
AND, it takes several machines AND they are EXPENSIVE.
James.....
Patrick Riley
philosophical differences as to what one is trying to do here. If you
get a kick out of sharpening things far be it from me to try to
dissuade you. Sharpen your Japanese swords, kitchen knives, and
hand-held straight razors to your hearts content but understand that
it's the thrill you get from the activity rather than any practical
use.
You're like someone who still mixes their own paint and indeed
probably does a better job than Benjamin Moore but while you're off
buying or making your raw materials and re-inventing the wheel and
calculating the proper proportions someone with a more pragmatic
approach will have already painted whatever it was they wanted to
paint to a standard that will last 20 years to your 21. You'll be dead
or will have sold your house by the time anyone even notices the extra
year, if they ever do. The value of your labor and the cost of small
quantities of raw materials (I won't even consider the EPA) and the
time taken to learn how to make it will mean that you'll be paying
maybe $500 to BM's $20 for a gallon.
Moreover while paint is still a current commodity, chisels and hand
planes have just about faded into the obscurity of the antique
collector. For most jobs chisels have been replaced by routers, dado
heads on table saws, shapers, and drill presses and in most of those
cases you don't sharpen anything, you toss it or send it back to the
factory for them to sharpen. Heresy, eh?
Like lots of weekend warriors, I'm not interested in constructing my
own furniture, but rather in maintaining my house and occasionally
constructing something built-in. Someone suggested I would have some
difficulty cutting a mortise in hickory with my suggestion for a
replaceable-tipped flimsy chisel. You're right but so what? What on
earth would I be doing cutting a mortise in hickory? Does HD sell
hickory?
Nah, I need a chisel to clean out the damn glue that runs out when you
clamp something together. I've found that it's better to let it dry
rather than wipe it up when wet. I need one to scrape out the corners
on the staircase--the part where neither the sander nor the Sandvik
scraper can reach. I need one to scrape the cured epoxy off my
expensive scrapers (or palette knives or putty knives or whatever you
call them) and to cut off the nibs of paint where the prior painter
has left some drips. And the one use you'll probably approve of:
digging out that inside corner where the router can't reach on (say)
window sash. Most of the time I don't use them to open cans of paint
<g>.
And I do need them sharp; that's sharp as in a brand new utility blade
or a brand new razor blade or a brand new Xacto knife. To argue that
there's some higher standard is ridiculous but if there were and it
was necessary to cut your hickory mortises just who do you think could
make it that sharp? You or Stanley (to take an example)? A guy with
his scary sharp system (whatever that is) or a company with
metallurgists, million dollar factories, comparison microscopes able
to examine the edge at the molecular level, and grinding, lapping and
honing machinery that you could never match?
While I haven't tried this scary sharp system I have a precursor to
the Tormek with a grindstone running in a bath of water and also one
of those flat Makitas with the water drip system. I even have a 6000
grit white wheel for it. Not to mention a couple of hand stones and
some jigs for holding the chisels. None of them work.
See, unlike you guys I don't have the time to take courses on
sharpening and spend hours doing it. And enough of the minimalization.
It's not a "few minutes" even to grind off the burrs caused when I've
hit a nail. I'm quite willing to pay a mfg to give me a machine to do
the job but it must be as easy as the pencil sharpener or the
replaceable blade. Get on it!
As to gooseneck chisels, yep, I've probably read something about them
in one of the more snooty mail order catalogs--imported from England
and hand finished by 80 year old elves in the original Sheffield
factory, blah, blah-- where they cost enormous sums of money. Oh yeah
and the idiots who wrote this catalog said that all their products had
to be honed before use! That's going to bring me right in the door.
For the price they want for this unfinished product, I'll live with a
few skinned knuckles. However should a mfg decide that there's a
market of millions of guys who just want to do the occasional
chiseling, I'd like a gooseneck please. Oh, yeah, sell it at HD too.
Oh and someone mentioned disposable blades for a plane made by
Stanley. I don't know about Stanley but I have a plane that takes
disposable blades. It's made in Switzerland by a company with a name
like "Rosle" and it's black and red. Doesn't work but that's probably
because planes and I don't mix. Since I have no use for a plane (belt
sanders ya' know) it doesn't particularly worry me.
And a couple of loose ends: You don't need a sharp knife to cut
tomatoes; you need a serrated one, and even a plastic serrated one
will do a passable job.
The same poster questions the use of Chef's Choice by people who earn
their living using knives. Maybe you should visit the stores that
cater to the restaurant industry instead of the more-bucks-than-sense
yuppie-oriented Henkels retailers. I don't think I've ever seen a
Henkels or any of those type of knives in the restaurant suppliers;
instead what you get are lots of your much derided ever-sharp knives
generally made in some country not renowned for its cutlery and the
occasional no-name non-ever-sharp. Like me people who work in
restaurants generally don't have time to touch up the sharpness of
their knives. The only ones who do are the guys in the butchering
business and guess what? There's a professional Chef's Choice costing
around $400. Of course there are still the old stick-in-the-muds using
the sharpening steels.
Thank you for playing.
--
Patrick Riley
Charles Self
>OK guys, I see we have some fundamental problems stemming from
>philosophical differences as to what one is trying to do here. If you
>get a kick out of sharpening things far be it from me to try to
>dissuade you. Sharpen your Japanese swords, kitchen knives, and
>hand-held straight razors to your hearts content but understand that
>it's the thrill you get from the activity rather than any practical
>use.
Nonsense. I dislike sharpening tools intensely, but I also know that sharp
tools work better. The difference is only partially philosophical here--it is
more of an educational problem, with you not having a clue as to how a really
sharp tool works.
>You're like someone who still mixes their own paint and indeed
>probably does a better job than Benjamin Moore but while you're off
>buying or making your raw materials and re-inventing the wheel and
>calculating the proper proportions someone with a more pragmatic
>approach will have already painted whatever it was they wanted to
>paint to a standard that will last 20 years to your 21. You'll be dead
>or will have sold your house by the time anyone even notices the extra
>year, if they ever do. The value of your labor and the cost of small
>quantities of raw materials (I won't even consider the EPA) and the
>time taken to learn how to make it will mean that you'll be paying
>maybe $500 to BM's $20 for a gallon.
>
>Moreover while paint is still a current commodity, chisels and hand
>planes have just about faded into the obscurity of the antique
>collector. For most jobs chisels have been replaced by routers, dado
>heads on table saws, shapers, and drill presses and in most of those
>cases you don't sharpen anything, you toss it or send it back to the
>factory for them to sharpen. Heresy, eh
Paint? WTF?
If planes are a fading commodity--or chisels--how about you type in
www.woodcraft.com and then do a search for either. We don't carry all of those
available, but we have many--check out the Lie-Nielsen models for kicks--and
will have more.
>Like lots of weekend warriors, I'm not interested in constructing my
>own furniture, but rather in maintaining my house and occasionally
>constructing something built-in. Someone suggested I would have some
>difficulty cutting a mortise in hickory with my suggestion for a
>replaceable-tipped flimsy chisel. You're right but so what? What on
>earth would I be doing cutting a mortise in hickory? Does HD sell
>hickory?
>
Uh, why are you on rec.WOODWORKING?
>Nah, I need a chisel to clean out the damn glue that runs out when you
>clamp something together. I've found that it's better to let it dry
>rather than wipe it up when wet. I need one to scrape out the corners
>on the staircase--the part where neither the sander nor the Sandvik
>scraper can reach. I need one to scrape the cured epoxy off my
>expensive scrapers (or palette knives or putty knives or whatever you
>call them) and to cut off the nibs of paint where the prior painter
>has left some drips. And the one use you'll probably approve of:
>digging out that inside corner where the router can't reach on (say)
>window sash. Most of the time I don't use them to open cans of paint
><g>.
You're cute. About like a baby, drooling.
>And I do need them sharp; that's sharp as in a brand new utility blade
>or a brand new razor blade or a brand new Xacto knife. To argue that
>there's some higher standard is ridiculous but if there were and it
>was necessary to cut your hickory mortises just who do you think could
>make it that sharp? You or Stanley (to take an example)? A guy with
>his scary sharp system (whatever that is) or a company with
>metallurgists, million dollar factories, comparison microscopes able
>to examine the edge at the molecular level, and grinding, lapping and
>honing machinery that you could never match?
Pick up this month's FWW and read the article on sharpening methods. Read a
little about metallurgy, too, while you're at it.
>While I haven't tried this scary sharp system I have a precursor to
>the Tormek with a grindstone running in a bath of water and also one
>of those flat Makitas with the water drip system. I even have a 6000
>grit white wheel for it. Not to mention a couple of hand stones and
>some jigs for holding the chisels. None of them work.
None of them work for YOU.
>See, unlike you guys I don't have the time to take courses on
>sharpening and spend hours doing it. And enough of the minimalization.
>It's not a "few minutes" even to grind off the burrs caused when I've
>hit a nail. I'm quite willing to pay a mfg to give me a machine to do
>the job but it must be as easy as the pencil sharpener or the
>replaceable blade. Get on it!
Foley-Belsaw. Then take THEIR courses in using their machines.
>As to gooseneck chisels, yep, I've probably read something about them
>in one of the more snooty mail order catalogs--imported from England
>and hand finished by 80 year old elves in the original Sheffield
>factory, blah, blah-- where they cost enormous sums of money. Oh yeah
>and the idiots who wrote this catalog said that all their products had
>to be honed before use! That's going to bring me right in the door.
>For the price they want for this unfinished product, I'll live with a
>few skinned knuckles. However should a mfg decide that there's a
>market of millions of guys who just want to do the occasional
>chiseling, I'd like a gooseneck please. Oh, yeah, sell it at HD too.
Uh, talk to HD about that one. We don't have much affect on their corporate
stocking choices. But, then,as we've noted some thousands of times, HD isn't
really a woodworking supplier. For kicks, I checked, and I believe my
goosenecks cost from $20 to $30 each. I guess if the idiots who wrote the
catalog told you to go for it, use the chisels before honing, you'd bitch
because the retailer didn't do a honing job free. Woodcraft will hone any of
your tools for you. For a price. TANSTAAFL.
snip of tomato cutting treatise
>Thank you for playing.
You're welcome. Now, someone will come along and re-direct you to the local
Sauder selling store, and to rec.homebuilding or some such.
Glen
Man, I want to go fishing with you sometime. If I watch your technique
maybe I can learn to cast and reel tham in like you do. You have earned my
respect- you're one hell of a troll.
;-)
Glen
"Patrick Riley" <p_r...@pipeline.com> wrote in message
news:qbo4iucfbfa37vus7...@4ax.com...
Chris Johnson
Patrick Riley wrote:
> OK guys, I see we have some fundamental problems stemming from
> philosophical differences as to what one is trying to do here. If you
> get a kick out of sharpening things far be it from me to try to
> dissuade you. Sharpen your Japanese swords, kitchen knives, and
> hand-held straight razors to your hearts content but understand that
> it's the thrill you get from the activity rather than any practical
> use.
Wrong. You could buy the sharpest chisel ever made, and after
using it for a while it will not be so sharp anymore. What are you
going to do? Throw it away and buy a new one, or resharpen it?
Given that it probably only needs a touchup sharpening which only
takes a minute or two and not much in the way of supplies, It seems
reasonable that learning to resharpen your tools properly is a
cost-effective solution.
>
>
> And I do need them sharp; that's sharp as in a brand new utility blade
> or a brand new razor blade or a brand new Xacto knife. To argue that
> there's some higher standard is ridiculous but if there were and it
> was necessary to cut your hickory mortises just who do you think could
> make it that sharp? You or Stanley (to take an example)? A guy with
> his scary sharp system (whatever that is) or a company with
> metallurgists, million dollar factories, comparison microscopes able
> to examine the edge at the molecular level, and grinding, lapping and
> honing machinery that you could never match?
Do you plan to keep sending your dull chisels back to the factory to
be resharpened by them at X dollars each, plus shipping both ways?
Do you have the excess money and time that it would require?
Or would you rather take the sensible approach, which is to spend
a few measly dollars for the supplies it takes to bring your tools back
up to scary sharpness on your own in a few minutes?
As for a higher standard of sharpness, well, my standard for comparison
is to a fresh Gillette razor blade. I can and do routinely resharpen
chisels to this level, and it takes about two minutes from start to finish
if the edge doesn't have any serious chips or gouges at the beginning.
>
>
> While I haven't tried this scary sharp system I have a precursor to
> the Tormek with a grindstone running in a bath of water and also one
> of those flat Makitas with the water drip system. I even have a 6000
> grit white wheel for it. Not to mention a couple of hand stones and
> some jigs for holding the chisels. None of them work.
Then you're not doing it right. I use my Makita planer blade sharpener
(which you described) with the stock red-orange wheel (I think it's 1000 grit)
on it, and after a short session with this sharpener followed by less than
thirty seconds with two different buffers, my chisels are as sharp as
the above-mentioned Gillette razor.
The trick to the Makita sharpener is simply to not apply too much
force, and after sharpening the bevel on the right side of the wheel
(turning toward you) then you flip the chisel over and deburr the
flat side by touching the flat side to the flat wheel on the left side
(rotating away from you ) with the business end of the chisel
pointed toward you.
It's stupid simple, once you know the trick which I just described.
>
>
> See, unlike you guys I don't have the time to take courses on
> sharpening and spend hours doing it. And enough of the minimalization.
> It's not a "few minutes" even to grind off the burrs caused when I've
> hit a nail. I'm quite willing to pay a mfg to give me a machine to do
> the job but it must be as easy as the pencil sharpener or the
> replaceable blade. Get on it!
I would advise you to avoid nails. It's not usually that hard to see
where they are and where they're going. And yes, with that Makita
sharpener available (and with the medium 1000 grit wheel or the
nutso aggressive sixty grit wheel), it really does take just a minute or
two to take out even the worst nicks in the blade.
You want a magical machine that sharpens your chisels perfectly
and it's as simple as a pencil sharpener? I suppose you want it
fairly cheap, too.
Pardon me while I wipe the coffee off my computer screen and shake
out my computer keyboard. I couldn't keep myself from laughing,
and at an unfortunate moment.
In simple terms, it won't happen. The sort of edge you want can't
be achieved in a single stage process, period. Even the fine
edge on the multiple blades on your disposable razor isn't done in one
operation, and that's with the blades processed in continuous bands
on some VERY expensive, highly automated machinery. They go through
at least two grinding and polishing stages (probably three or even four,
actually, but the exact process is a trade secret) and then they get a thin layer of
platinum applied to the edge via a metal vapor deposition process known as
sputtering.
So either learn to sharpen your chisels, it's really quite fast and easy if you
take the minimal time it takes to learn how, or just buy your chisels in bulk
(by the gross) and toss them out when they get dull, and hope they're all
really as sharp from the factory as you hope.
There is no third option.
CJ
Eric Lund
SIR,
STEP AWAY FROM THE TOOLS...
STEP... AWAY... FROM... THE... TOOLS...
Okay, somebody tell this guy where the home maintenance / DIY group is. He
might get a more sympathetic ear there.
Dr. Rev. Chuck, M.D., P.A.
>
> OK guys, I see we have some fundamental problems stemming from
> philosophical differences as to what one is trying to do here. If you
> get a kick out of sharpening things far be it from me to try to
> dissuade you. Sharpen your Japanese swords, kitchen knives, and
> hand-held straight razors to your hearts content but understand that
> it's the thrill you get from the activity rather than any practical
> use.
I should get so much thrill from sanding, through a half-dozen grits,
to arrive at a marginal surface very lacking in depth. A #4 Bailey
with a sharp iron will take a surface from rough-sawn to like-glass
in three strokes. Sharpening? Goes fast, since I don't sharpen the
edge as much as maintain it. That takes but a few seconds on a
felt buffing wheel. Honing is reserved for removing nicks, easily
avoided by not planing through nails.
Patrick Riley
>Patrick Riley wrote:
>Then you're not doing it right. I use my Makita planer blade sharpener
>(which you described) with the stock red-orange wheel (I think it's 1000 grit)
>on it, and after a short session with this sharpener followed by less than
>thirty seconds with two different buffers, my chisels are as sharp as
>the above-mentioned Gillette razor.
>The trick to the Makita sharpener is simply to not apply too much
>force, and after sharpening the bevel on the right side of the wheel
>(turning toward you) then you flip the chisel over and deburr the
>flat side by touching the flat side to the flat wheel on the left side
>(rotating away from you ) with the business end of the chisel
>pointed toward you.
>It's stupid simple, once you know the trick which I just described.
Thanks for taking the time to suggest a method. No really, I'm not
being sarcastic. You should volunteer to rewrite the pidgin in
Makita's manual.
However, there's a fundamental problem. I have no ability to keep the
chisel at an appropriate angle to the stone and frankly I have no idea
how you do. Maybe it comes with practice. The result is that the bevel
is no longer a bevel but a round...a convex curve. To solve this I
purchased a "thingee" that holds the chisel at an precise angle to the
stone (it mounts on the two supports for the planer attachment). There
are two problems though: the chisel is not a square billet of steel
(except for the bevel at the business end) so the angle is only
correct at one point and as the chisel is pushed into the stone the
angle changes. Secondly, moving the chisel across the stone by sliding
it on the guide results in cutting an angle on the blade. That is, the
finished chisel business end is (say) 75 degrees to the side of the
chisel instead of 90. I don't really mind this too much because it
works well with my stair corner cleaning out activities but it's
obviously not the way it's supposed to be done. This is why I like the
Chef's Choice and Drill Doctor ideas. You can't screw up the angles.
--
Patrick Riley
Patrick Riley
>Patrick Riley wrote:
>I should get so much thrill from sanding, through a half-dozen grits,
>to arrive at a marginal surface very lacking in depth.
Do you really think that luan or birch plywood or #2 or better pine
has any "depth"?
> A #4 Bailey
>with a sharp iron will take a surface from rough-sawn to like-glass
>in three strokes.
I presume a #4 Bailey is a plane. As I mentioned before planes and I
don't get on. I have a fundamental problem with a piece of metal, held
in a throat, meeting the side of a piece of wood at--I don't know;
some enormous speed. Something has to give. Your arm? The plane blade?
The wood? And usually it's the wood making a huge gouge across it. Out
with the belt sander to repair the damage...
--
Patrick Riley
K & C
Try using diamond stones. They truly work quickly to get a decent edge.
Even the gouges from nails. And they are gauranteed to stay flat unlike
traditional stones. For your purposes, you need not hone the edge. But at
least you won't be wasting good money on some fancy machinery that usually
is to expensive and best of all you don't need to keep buying tools. It
really is easy and quick.
On the other hand, if something so basic and simple is causing you so much
grief, then do everyone a justice and SELL ALL YOUR TOOLS. Just BUY your
furniture or pay a contractor make home repairs. Life would be so much
nicer when you leave jobs to the people that know what they are doing and
enjoy doing it. Just maybe you will get that extra time for designing
disposable chisels. You'd probably make millions because sadly there are a
ton of people that would buy them. Not the ones that know better.
This 'philosophy' of the quick cheap and easy method is a pure example of
why there is so much garbage on the market in regard to furniture AND basic
home construction. Even scraping glue requires a little bit finesse for a
job done well to decent standards.
"Patrick Riley" <p_r...@pipeline.com> wrote in message
news:0o02iukd6keolfbii...@4ax.com...
> I see the thread on Chisels and Sharpening. Guys, do you get some
> thrill out of sharpening chisels? Come on, a chisel is just a knife
> with a narrow blade and a bevel on one side only. Do you sharpen your
> own utility knives? The razor you use to shave with? The knives you
> use to cut your steak? Even kitchen knives from expensive German
> manufacturers are mostly of the never-needs-sharpening variety. So why
> are you back in 1902 when it comes to chisels? Why aren't the
> manufacturers addressing this issue?
>
> As usual I have some suggestions:
>
> 1) the replaceable tip chisel:
>
> Presuming that it's too expensive to just throw out a chisel when it
> gets blunt, why not make the tip replaceable. Take a current chisel,
> preferably one that's a square billet of steel with a sloped business
> end, and machine a slot in the bottom about one inch long the
> thickness of a utility knife blade. Drill two or three fine-threaded
> screw holes in the area of the slot. Take a utility knife blade and
> sharpen it one side only like a Japanese sashimi knife; cut it to the
> size of the slot you've cut in the bottom of the chisel and drill and
> countersink two or three screw holes to match up with the holes in the
> chisel body. Sell the chisel and packs of replacement blades.
>
> You don't like that suggestion...try
>
> 2) The pencil sharpener solution aka the Drill Doctor solution aka the
> Chef's Choice system.
>
> One of the problems with chisels and planes and saw blades and knives
> is that you can never tell if they're sharp or not (unless you happen
> to be an old guy with a foreign-sounding name who can just look at a
> chisel and just know, don't ask how) so why tax your brain. Instead
> let science or physics do the job for you. How does a pencil sharpener
> work? I have no idea. You stick the pencil in this little hole and
> push until the light comes on. Presto, it's sharp. Er, why can't we do
> the same thing for a chisel? Too simple?
>
> Well Drill Doctor seems to have managed it for drill bits. This is one
> of the few sharpening devices I haven't wasted my money on (buy cheap
> bits and throw them out after each (or a few) use(s)) but I think the
> idea is something like a pencil with a special holder which lines the
> bit up with a rotating stone. Put your chisel in the right carrier and
> let Chisel Doctor do the hard part. One on every workbench always
> plugged in.
>
> Chef's Choice is a sharpening system for kitchen knives which has,
> depending on the model a series of slots in the top (coarse, medium,
> fine) and you simply draw the knife through the slot before you use
> your non-never-needs-sharpening knife to debone the chicken. Works
> well. No intelligence required and certainly no sore finger tips or
> water spraying everywhere. Woodworker's choice would be the same idea
> with different slots into which you shove the chisel.
>
> Oh, and BTW make the chisels with a crank in the handle end so I don't
> bang my knuckles every time I'm scraping some dried glue out of a
> piece of furniture.
>
>
> --
> Patrick Riley
Charles Self
>>I should get so much thrill from sanding, through a half-dozen grits,
>>to arrive at a marginal surface very lacking in depth.
>
>Do you really think that luan or birch plywood or #2 or better pine
>has any "depth"?
Some birch may have, but, then, as was noted before, you'd be far better off in
rec.homebuilding or some such.
>> A #4 Bailey
>>with a sharp iron will take a surface from rough-sawn to like-glass
>>in three strokes.
>
>I presume a #4 Bailey is a plane. As I mentioned before planes and I
>don't get on. I have a fundamental problem with a piece of metal, held
>in a throat, meeting the side of a piece of wood at--I don't know;
>some enormous speed. Something has to give. Your arm? The plane blade?
>The wood? And usually it's the wood making a huge gouge across it. Out
>with the belt sander to repair the damage...
>
Yup. Not a woodworker, nor ever likely to be.
Charlie Self
A fine is a tax for doing something wrong. A tax is a fine for doing something
well.
GTO69RA4
planes cause that much trouble for you. I have a raft of old planes that are as
slick as you can get. Only had to spend a few minutes with each when I got them
and a litte sharpening here and there.
GTO(John)
CW
Everything you have said indicates you have an extreme lack of skill. In
addition to that, you seem to be proud of it.
If that is of no concern to you, fine. You have plenty of company. The world
needs a certain amount of the population to be like you. Who else would the
rest of use make money from?
--
CW
KC7NOD
"Patrick Riley" <p_r...@pipeline.com> wrote in message
news:p837iusj1a13qggjf...@4ax.com...
Patrick Riley
>Uh, why are you on rec.WOODWORKING?
Chisels are used to cut and shape WOOD, to work WOOD,...i.e.
WOODWORKING. I'm not talking about cold chisels used to cut steel or
masonry chisels. When I want to give my views on the inadequacies of
the arc welders on the market, I'll post on rec.metalworking; on
modifications to masonry chisels, rec.bricklaying or something
similar. I'm just not talking about your snobby view of woodworking.
>Pick up this month's FWW and read the article on sharpening methods. Read a
>little about metallurgy, too, while you're at it.
I read. Nowhere did I see anything solving my problem.
>Foley-Belsaw. Then take THEIR courses in using their machines.
No courses! You manufacture something, you provide a user manual on
how to operate it. If not possible you need to re-design your product.
> For kicks, I checked, and I believe my
>goosenecks cost from $20 to $30 each. I guess if the idiots who wrote the
>catalog told you to go for it, use the chisels before honing, you'd bitch
>because the retailer didn't do a honing job free. Woodcraft will hone any of
>your tools for you. For a price. TANSTAAFL.
And I suppose when you buy a TV you'd be happy if the retailer told
you, "Uh, you'll have to adjust the white balance and focus the
raster, or we could do it for you for an extra $100." Say, what?
--
Patrick Riley
Dave Balderstone
<p_r...@pipeline.com> wrote:
> I read. Nowhere did I see anything solving my problem.
Um, what problem? You don't want to sharpen tools. Don't.
You want disposable tools and blades. Buy the cheapest crap you can and
throw them out or sell them in a yard sale when they become unusable,
or find a manufacturer who provides what you want. Supply and demand,
after all.
I still say, nice troll!
djb
--
Remove *** to reply by email.
"You couldn't get a clue during the clue mating season in a field full
of horny clues if you smeared your body with clue musk and did the
clue mating dance." -- Attributed by some to Edward Flaherty
Chris Johnson
Patrick Riley wrote:
> Chris Johnson <"cmjohnson(spam)"@cfl.rr.com> wrote:
>
>
>
> Thanks for taking the time to suggest a method. No really, I'm not
> being sarcastic. You should volunteer to rewrite the pidgin in
> Makita's manual.
You're welcome. That sharpener isn't a perfect solution, but
it can and will deliver an outstanding edge if you let it.
>
>
> However, there's a fundamental problem. I have no ability to keep the
> chisel at an appropriate angle to the stone and frankly I have no idea
> how you do.
I just set up the planer blade clamp attachment and clamp the chisel into it
(They fit fine in mine) and I use a small square to align the blade so it's
pointed straight at the wheel. Then I look from the side (machine off) and
adjust the angle until it looks like the whole face of the blade is going to be
touching the wheel. Then I turn on the water, hit the switch, and begin
moving the chisel across the entire stone's surface, and check it for a full
face grind from time to time. This is how I do a major regrind.
I just do minor touchups by hand without bothering to set up the chisel
in the clamp. Who really cares if I round off the extreme edge of
the blade by blowing the angle by half a degree relative to the original
angle? I sure don't. I can scarcely tell the difference in the finished
edge and if anything, what little ultimate sharpness may be lost is made
up for in a little more edge toughness at the slightly blunter angle.
If I were so inclined, I'd use my milling machine to fabricate a custom
set of chisel clamps for use with the Makita sharpener so every chisel
was sharpened at exactly the same angle every time, but it's not really
worth the trouble...or that's what I'm thinking now, anyway.
I just want a fine edge, and since I scavenged all my buffing supplies
from free or nearly free sources, and the planer blade sharpener
came to me for nearly nothing, I use them and I'm glad to have them.
If I didn't have them, I'd be getting nearly as good a result with a glass
plate, some sheets of 2000 grit sandpaper, and a can of spray adhesive.
And a can of WD-40, of course.
CJ
Chris Johnson
Patrick Riley wrote:
Granted, planes are a skill unto themselves. But when you see what
a skilled planesman can do with a few good planes, you'll be amazed.
It's a skill that is well worth learning, and if you're serious about woodworking
you should investigate it.
As for me, well, I make guitars. And the only plane I use in the process
is a curved sole "finger plane" used for removing material from carved
tops and backs, like violin makers use. And I made that plane, myself.
Other than that, I use my Delta jointer where others might use a hand plane.
None of my hand planes are in particularly good shape and I can't afford to
scrap even ONE piece of top or back wood since they cost me an average
of 120 bucks each for the sort of stuff I demand for my guitars.
So I'm really no great plane user myself, but I have great respect for those who are.
One tip: A big part of using a plane is knowing how to apply it to a given
piece of wood. If the grain is diving down into the piece, tearouts are
a distinct possibility. That would be where you turn the workpiece around
and plane into grain that is coming UP toward the plane.
CJ
K & C
laziness on a pedestal. If you are so against sharpening then don't. But
before you start talking about how pointless it is, you need to know what
you are talking about. How long does it take? I read one magazine article
and found an old hollowed out stone (the kind from your favorite Home
Depot). In a matter of minutes in front of the TV I had sharpened an old
pitted plane iron to a good enough edge to use on a practice piece of wood.
The only power I can afford comes from a box of wheaties. That was only two
months ago and I made enough progress with this skill since. I talked to
people that knew what they were talking about for better methods to fit my
budget. I can now spit out a pretty decent table with mere muscle power.
It is not that difficult a concept to grasp. Surely, you really must be
pulling our leg. Any one of us would be more than willing to help you with
any difficulties.
Dr. Rev. Chuck, M.D., P.A.
>
> "Dr. Rev. Chuck, M.D., P.A." <cdub@_REMOVETHIS_erols.com> wrote:
>
> >Patrick Riley wrote:
>
> >I should get so much thrill from sanding, through a half-dozen grits,
> >to arrive at a marginal surface very lacking in depth.
>
> Do you really think that luan or birch plywood or #2 or better pine
> has any "depth"?
Very much so, when they're planed (or scraped) and finished with an
oil-varnish blend.
> > A #4 Bailey
> >with a sharp iron will take a surface from rough-sawn to like-glass
> >in three strokes.
>
> I presume a #4 Bailey is a plane. As I mentioned before planes and I
> don't get on. I have a fundamental problem with a piece of metal, held
> in a throat, meeting the side of a piece of wood at--I don't know;
> some enormous speed. Something has to give. Your arm? The plane blade?
Notice I didn't say a #5.
> The wood? And usually it's the wood making a huge gouge across it. Out
> with the belt sander to repair the damage...
For that job, a #5 with a crowned edge. Does the job in a fraction of
the time of a belt sander. Doesn't leave me hacking up dust for the
next week, either.
Mo' Sawdust
Patrick,
As a woodworker, you have hopefully defined your level of craftmanship
in the projects you create in wood. To that end, maintaining one's
tools, tailed or otherwise, is a part of the craft. It is a matter of
degree and like life, one's defined level is a journey, not a
destination.
Throwing down the gauntlet to chisel manufacturers to have chisels
with disposable tips will most likely go unanswered. It would only
become viable once steel becomes as scarce as hens' teeth.
Some of your follow up responses indicate a bit of difficulty in
maintaining a consistent bevel while honing, and ending up with a
slightly curved bevel. Whether you continue to use a bevel gauge or
do it by hand, good results will come from three things. In order of
importance they are: practice, practice, practice.
Now this might not be acceptable to you. Your time, according to your
priorities, may be better spent in making stuff as opposed to any or
certain maintenance activities. That is certainly a decision only
_you_ can make.
To offer a suggestion for a quick way to put on an "I Cannot Believe
It Took So Little Time" Sharp (tm) edge, consider the following: Get
some honing compound. Say some stuff that Lee Valley (LV) sells
(standard disclaimer that I am just a customer of theirs), part number
05M08.01. It is a 6.5 oz bar and is enough to last a hobbiest for a
lifetime. (
http://www.leevalley.com/wood/page.asp?SID=&page=32984&category=1%2C4
3072&ccurrency=3 )
Obtain a cloth buffing wheel.
If you do not have a grinder, perhaps a friend of yours does and will
allow, and perhaps even welcome, you to use it. With the procedure
below, once mastered, you could sharpen up a few of his/her
chisels/knives for their kindness and electricity.
Assuming you have all three of the above items: Put the cloth wheel
on the grinder. Since the cloth is soft, one must have the wheel
rotating away from the tool being buffed. Most grinders will require
that you have the chisel being buffed pressed against the bottom of
the rotating soft cloth.
Put on a face shield and wear really old clothes....why you ask? This
requirement will be explained later on.
With the grinder now on, ever so lightly, touch the honing compund
onto the cloth wheel. Do this a number of times on a new cloth wheel
to "charge it" or load it, with the honing compound. Once ready, the
wheel will have a green tinge to the first 1/4" or so of the outer
diameter of the cloth wheel.
As long as one has a reasonable shaped bevel, hold the chisel in a
downward direction, bevel up, and lightly press it into the bottom
portion of the rotating cloth wheel. Move the chisel side to side,
being careful not to allow the chisel to slip upwards off the wheel.
Slow and steady. Take look every ten or so seconds. Once you have
a mirror shine on the bevel face, stop. This will take about a
minute or so, depending on the pressure that is holding the chisel
into the wheel.
Turn the chisel so that the bevel is facing down towards the floor and
give the back of the chisel edge a pass or two over the cloth wheel.
You will now have a very sharp chisel.
This technique does not require a lot of practice or time as the Scary
Sharp (tm), rotating stone grinding, flat stone or other methods of
sharpening chisels.
Once you get into a routine, it would take a few seconds to bring your
chisel back up to the "I Cannot Believe It Took So Little Time" Sharp
(tm) sharpness for routine touch ups. No more need to concentrate on
not rocking the chisel on the stone, not worrying about getting the
chisel held askew in the honing guide fixture, having the stone
getting cupped or a number of other reasons .
If you ever find yourself in Toronto Canada, you are more than welcome
to drop by my shop for a demonstration. At that time, a utility
chisel will have its bevel massaged by a bastard file. That will put
a serrated edge on it that would make for a good tomato poker, but
useless as a chisel in slicing off some face or end grain without
getting huge tear out.
Thirty to sixty seconds with the above buffing method, and the chisel
will be then used on some end grain. There will be no tear-out in the
wood.
Do I use this method on my good chisels.....no way, Jose. The good
chisels/plane irons get the waterstone method. For some woodworkers,
sharpening their chisels and woodworking is like the mortise and tenon
-- both are needed together. In the same manner that there are many
ways to create a mortise and tenon joint, there are a multitude of
sharpening methods, and more importantly, level of sharpness. What
may be sharp for one person, is mid stage to another.
What about the face shield and old cloth. If you do not wear them,
you will find yourself with a distinctive, and perhaps in some social
circles, very fashionable, green stripe down the vertical median line
of your body. It does not wash easily from clothing either. This
striping was used as initiation of the newbie apprentices many a time.
;-) They were told to and did wear safety goggles. Another initiation
rite was to have them go to the local hardware store to get a hinge
for a gate valve for the next days maintenance. But I digress.
By sharpening your chisels in this manner, you will find that the
chisels are really sharp and may increase the quality of your
workmanship. To save your knuckles, consider using a scraper for
most glue removal, and limiting yourself to using chisels for
those hard to get to places. There are chisels, usually called
Cranked-Neck Chisels, that would serve you well. As an example,
in the LV catalog
http://www.leevalley.com/wood/page.asp?SID=&ccurrency=3&page=30017&category=1%2C41504%2C41539
shows a three chisel set, or they can be bought individually.
Another way to minimize clean up from dried glue, is to not use as
much glue. Modern glues are quite good and consistent in quality.
One does not want to starve a glue joint, but it has been observed
that most people (not all) use too much glue. With properly dressed
joints, obtained via a craftpersons skill, machinery and/or hand
tools, a small amount of glue is needed to secure the joint.
In closing, I await your response.
--
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Charles Self
>charl...@aol.com (Charles Self) wrote:
>
>>Uh, why are you on rec.WOODWORKING?
>
>Chisels are used to cut and shape WOOD, to work WOOD,...i.e.
>WOODWORKING. I'm not talking about cold chisels used to cut steel or
>masonry chisels. When I want to give my views on the inadequacies of
>the arc welders on the market, I'll post on rec.metalworking; on
>modifications to masonry chisels, rec.bricklaying or something
>similar. I'm just not talking about your snobby view of woodworking.
Snobby view, eh? If you wish to complain about something, I suggest you first
find out something about it.
If you wish to continue to espouse the throwaway society, stick to your last.
You don't know what a snobby (snobbish?) view of woodworking is, nor how it is
gained, nor who has it, so you cannot "review" it.
>>Pick up this month's FWW and read the article on sharpening methods. Read a
>>little about metallurgy, too, while you're at it.
>
>I read. Nowhere did I see anything solving my problem.
Basic problem: you are either too clumsy, too lazy, or too stupid to do the
work, so you whine.
All three?
>And I suppose when you buy a TV you'd be happy if the retailer told
>you, "Uh, you'll have to adjust the white balance and focus the
>raster, or we could do it for you for an extra $100." Say, what?
Apples and oranges. I doubt anyone sane will class viewing the idjit box as a
skill.
Chris Johnson
Mo' Sawdust wrote:
To offer a suggestion for a quick way to put on an "I Cannot Believe
It Took So Little Time" Sharp (tm) edge, consider the following: Get
some honing compound. Say some stuff that Lee Valley (LV) sells
(standard disclaimer that I am just a customer of theirs), part number
05M08.01. It is a 6.5 oz bar and is enough to last a hobbiest for a
lifetime. (
http://www.leevalley.com/wood/page.asp?SID=&page=32984&category=1%2C4
3072&ccurrency=3 )Obtain a cloth buffing wheel.
I use this method routinely, although it's sufficient to merely
buff the edge
and not the whole face of the chisel, after the Makita planer
blade sharpener
does its magic and lays down a really serious edge.
The results are fantastic. It makes Scary Sharp look sick in comparison,
and it's much faster.
CJ
toolsforworkingwood
There are so many areas to throw in my 2 cents that I thought I just
still to
the one point that most have neglected
>
> >And I suppose when you buy a TV you'd be happy if the retailer told
> >you, "Uh, you'll have to adjust the white balance and focus the
> >raster, or we could do it for you for an extra $100." Say, what?
>
home theatre dealers to do exactly that. - only for a lot more then
100.00
joel
Chris Johnson
toolsforworkingwood wrote:
A full video calibration by an ISF trained technician, including convergence
and gray scale tracking, can easily run over five hundred bucks in some areas.
But the picture can end up looking so good (quality of equipment depending)
that you feel like you could dive into the picture yourself.
CJ, audiophile/videophile
Ken Muldrew
>The wood? And usually it's the wood making a huge gouge across it. Out
>with the belt sander to repair the damage...
Well if you've got a belt sander then your sharpening problems are
over! Just hold the chisel bevel on the moving belt for a couple of
seconds and you're ready to go. An edge that will slice through the
best "white wood" that Home Depot carries!
Ken Muldrew
kmul...@ucalgary.ca