HVLP: What Tips to Use for Shellac? Karl, Leon?

[-MIKE-]

I got the HVLP sprayer from HF, same one as Rockler.
I used it to spray some Zinsser BIN and it came out pretty good.
However, I sort of just guessed at what tip to use and I don't know if
it was the best choice.

So, to you guys who HVLP a lot... before I google myself to death, what
tips are for what?
The Rockler manual says .9mm for latex and 1.8mm for oils.

The HF version says it comes with 1.0mm, 1.5 and 1.8, and there are
three different tips holes increasing in size.
I assume you use the corresponding hole sized tip for different needles.

The BIN instructions only talk about an airless sprayer.

The guy at Zinsser said they recommend .05"-.07" (1.3-1.8mm) for HVLP
for all their "paints." He knew I was asking about BIN, so I'm assuming
that's also for the BIN. Is that correct. BIN is pretty darn thin.


--

-MIKE-

"Playing is not something I do at night, it's my function in life"
--Elvin Jones (1927-2004)
--
http://mikedrums.com
mi...@mikedrumsDOT.com
---remove "DOT" ^^^^ to reply

[Swingman]

On 12/19/2012 4:14 PM, -MIKE- wrote:
> I got the HVLP sprayer from HF, same one as Rockler.
> I used it to spray some Zinsser BIN and it came out pretty good.
> However, I sort of just guessed at what tip to use and I don't know if
> it was the best choice.
>
> So, to you guys who HVLP a lot... before I google myself to death, what
> tips are for what?
> The Rockler manual says .9mm for latex and 1.8mm for oils.
>
> The HF version says it comes with 1.0mm, 1.5 and 1.8, and there are
> three different tips holes increasing in size.
> I assume you use the corresponding hole sized tip for different needles.
>
> The BIN instructions only talk about an airless sprayer.
>
> The guy at Zinsser said they recommend .05"-.07" (1.3-1.8mm) for HVLP
> for all their "paints." He knew I was asking about BIN, so I'm assuming
> that's also for the BIN. Is that correct. BIN is pretty darn thin.

For spraying shellac I generally use a 2.0mm needle in my Earlex 5000.

I generally spray a 1 1/2# cut (with a 2mm needle), and use either 99%
isopropyl alcohol or denatured alcohol, depending upon the
temperature/humidity. On hot, high humidity days here on the Gulf Coast
I find 99% isopropyl is less prone to blush.

That said, experimenting is the only way to getting the best results
with any particular setup.

--
eWoodShop: www.eWoodShop.com
Wood Shop: www.e-WoodShop.net
https://plus.google.com/114902129577517371552/posts
KarlCaillouet@ (the obvious)

[-MIKE-]

I wonder what cut BIN is.
Some of their other products are 3lbs, but I can't find info on BIN.
I take it the higher the lbs the thicker it will be?

[Swingman]

IIRC, the instructions on the BIN can say Do Not Thin?

You are talking the pigmented product, and not the dewaxed shellac Seal
Coat, right?

> I take it the higher the lbs the thicker it will be?

Yep ...

[Swingman]

On 12/19/2012 5:33 PM, -MIKE- wrote:

> I wonder what cut BIN is.

If you talking the "Seal Coat" it is 2# cut.

[-MIKE-]

On 12/19/12 6:34 PM, Swingman wrote:
>>
>> I wonder what cut BIN is.
>> Some of their other products are 3lbs, but I can't find info on BIN.
>
> IIRC, the instructions on the BIN can say Do Not Thin?
>
> You are talking the pigmented product, and not the dewaxed shellac Seal
> Coat, right?
>

Correct.
I was just wondering if I could equate the viscosity of BIN to the
shellac you sprayed with the 2mm nozzle.

>> I take it the higher the lbs the thicker it will be?
>
> Yep ...

Thanks.

[-MIKE-]

On 12/19/12 6:41 PM, Swingman wrote:
> On 12/19/2012 5:33 PM, -MIKE- wrote:
>> I wonder what cut BIN is.
>
> If you talking the "Seal Coat" it is 2# cut.
>

I had read that.
I'm talking about B-I-N pigmented shellac based primer.

[Leon]

On 12/19/2012 4:14 PM, -MIKE- wrote:

> I got the HVLP sprayer from HF, same one as Rockler.
> I used it to spray some Zinsser BIN and it came out pretty good.
> However, I sort of just guessed at what tip to use and I don't know if
> it was the best choice.
>
> So, to you guys who HVLP a lot... before I google myself to death, what
> tips are for what?
> The Rockler manual says .9mm for latex and 1.8mm for oils.
>
> The HF version says it comes with 1.0mm, 1.5 and 1.8, and there are
> three different tips holes increasing in size.
> I assume you use the corresponding hole sized tip for different needles.
>
> The BIN instructions only talk about an airless sprayer.
>
> The guy at Zinsser said they recommend .05"-.07" (1.3-1.8mm) for HVLP
> for all their "paints." He knew I was asking about BIN, so I'm assuming
> that's also for the BIN. Is that correct. BIN is pretty darn thin.
>
>

I do not use shellac and I don't spray. ;~(

[Swingman]

On 12/20/2012 8:34 AM, Leon wrote:

> I do not use shellac and I don't spray. ;~(

IOW, until Festool comes out with a sprayer, you will continue to just
rub ...

<g, d & r>

[Leon]

On 12/20/2012 9:35 AM, Swingman wrote:
> On 12/20/2012 8:34 AM, Leon wrote:
>
>> I do not use shellac and I don't spray. ;~(
>
> IOW, until Festool comes out with a sprayer, you will continue to just
> rub ...
>
> <g, d & r>
>
>

I like to stroke'it maaan.

Maybe ask Wa'but, ooooh but I think Wa'but is'a to es'pensive.


On another note, I was given a bottle of Willett Wiskey, 119 proof. I
am afraid to open it in an enclosed area.

[Swingman]

No hay problema ... being as dangerous as that brand of shellac thinner
is, I'll be glad to assume that responsibility for you, as well as
verify its safety for human consumption.

Sounds like something Radcliffe could use in his BIN. ;)

[-MIKE-]

Someone in here, besides Karl, was talking about using BIN and
spraying... hmmmm......
I must be getting old, like you guys. :-p

Nailshooter, maybe?

[Swingman]

On 12/20/2012 10:02 AM, -MIKE- wrote:
> On 12/20/12 8:34 AM, Leon wrote:

>> I do not use shellac and I don't spray. ;~(
>
> Someone in here, besides Karl, was talking about using BIN and
> spraying... hmmmm......
> I must be getting old, like you guys. :-p
>
> Nailshooter, maybe?

That's what Leon was telling you to do ... ask "Wa'but". LOL

[-MIKE-]

On 12/20/12 9:57 AM, Swingman wrote:
> On 12/20/2012 9:46 AM, Leon wrote:
>> On 12/20/2012 9:35 AM, Swingman wrote:
>>> On 12/20/2012 8:34 AM, Leon wrote:
>>>
>>>> I do not use shellac and I don't spray. ;~(
>>>
>>> IOW, until Festool comes out with a sprayer, you will continue to just
>>> rub ...
>>>
>>> <g, d & r>
>>>
>>>
>>
>>
>> I like to stroke'it maaan.
>>
>> Maybe ask Wa'but, ooooh but I think Wa'but is'a to es'pensive.
>>
>>
>> On another note, I was given a bottle of Willett Wiskey, 119 proof. I
>> am afraid to open it in an enclosed area.
>
> No hay problema ... being as dangerous as that brand of shellac thinner
> is, I'll be glad to assume that responsibility for you, as well as
> verify its safety for human consumption.
>
> Sounds like something Radcliffe could use in his BIN. ;)
>

I knew I should've asked this on G+, instead of in here. :-)

[Swingman]

-MIKE- <mi...@mikedrumsDOT.com> wrote:
> On 12/20/12 9:57 AM, Swingman wrote:
>> On 12/20/2012 9:46 AM, Leon wrote:
>>> On 12/20/2012 9:35 AM, Swingman wrote:
>>>> On 12/20/2012 8:34 AM, Leon wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> I do not use shellac and I don't spray. ;~(
>>>>
>>>> IOW, until Festool comes out with a sprayer, you will continue to just
>>>> rub ...
>>>>
>>>> <g, d & r>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> I like to stroke'it maaan.
>>>
>>> Maybe ask Wa'but, ooooh but I think Wa'but is'a to es'pensive.
>>>
>>>
>>> On another note, I was given a bottle of Willett Wiskey, 119 proof. I
>>> am afraid to open it in an enclosed area.
>>
>> No hay problema ... being as dangerous as that brand of shellac thinner
>> is, I'll be glad to assume that responsibility for you, as well as
>> verify its safety for human consumption.
>>
>> Sounds like something Radcliffe could use in his BIN. ;)
>>
>
> I knew I should've asked this on G+, instead of in here. :-)
>

ROTFL...

--
www.ewoodshop.com

[Leon]

On 12/20/2012 10:02 AM, -MIKE- wrote:

> On 12/20/12 8:34 AM, Leon wrote:
>> On 12/19/2012 4:14 PM, -MIKE- wrote:
>>> I got the HVLP sprayer from HF, same one as Rockler.
>>> I used it to spray some Zinsser BIN and it came out pretty good.
>>> However, I sort of just guessed at what tip to use and I don't know if
>>> it was the best choice.
>>>
>>> So, to you guys who HVLP a lot... before I google myself to death, what
>>> tips are for what?
>>> The Rockler manual says .9mm for latex and 1.8mm for oils.
>>>
>>> The HF version says it comes with 1.0mm, 1.5 and 1.8, and there are
>>> three different tips holes increasing in size.
>>> I assume you use the corresponding hole sized tip for different needles.
>>>
>>> The BIN instructions only talk about an airless sprayer.
>>>
>>> The guy at Zinsser said they recommend .05"-.07" (1.3-1.8mm) for HVLP
>>> for all their "paints." He knew I was asking about BIN, so I'm assuming
>>> that's also for the BIN. Is that correct. BIN is pretty darn thin.
>>>
>>>
>>
>>
>> I do not use shellac and I don't spray. ;~(
>
> Someone in here, besides Karl, was talking about using BIN and
> spraying... hmmmm......
> I must be getting old, like you guys. :-p
>
> Nailshooter, maybe?
>
>

Yeah probably so, he always has a lot of info.

[Lew Hodgett]

Leon wrote:

> On another note, I was given a bottle of Willett Wiskey, 119 proof.
> I am afraid to open it in an enclosed area.

-------------------------------------------------------------
Good moonshine is 195 proof.

Only reason it isn't 200 proof is that as soon as it is exposed to
air,
it sucks water vapor out of the air.

BTW, 195 proof moonshine makes a dyn-O-mite martini.

Lew

[Dave Balderstone]

In article <kate8t$tho$1...@speranza.aioe.org>, -MIKE-

<mi...@mikedrumsDOT.com> wrote:

> However, I sort of just guessed at what tip to use and I don't know if
> it was the best choice.

Were there problems with the finish?

If not, you used an appropriate tip.

I have 1, 1.5 and 2.0 mm needles and tips for my Apollo HVLP. With a .5
- 2 lb cut of shellac I would probably start with the 1.5 tip.

How thick a film are you laying down? 3-5 mil?

--
Outside of a dog, a book is man's best friend. Inside a dog, it's too dark to
read. - Groucho Marx

[-MIKE-]

On 12/22/12 5:50 PM, Dave Balderstone wrote:
> In article <kate8t$tho$1...@speranza.aioe.org>, -MIKE-
> <mi...@mikedrumsDOT.com> wrote:
>
>> However, I sort of just guessed at what tip to use and I don't know if
>> it was the best choice.
>
> Were there problems with the finish?
>
> If not, you used an appropriate tip.
>

I think even if there are no problems, that wouldn't be an indicator
that a better tip might yield better results.

> I have 1, 1.5 and 2.0 mm needles and tips for my Apollo HVLP. With a .5
> - 2 lb cut of shellac I would probably start with the 1.5 tip.
>

Thanks.

> How thick a film are you laying down? 3-5 mil?
>

HTFSIK? :-)

[Dave Balderstone]

In article <kb5knu$66g$1...@speranza.aioe.org>, -MIKE-
<mi...@mikedrumsDOT.com> wrote:

> HTFSIK?

My supplier sells film gauges. There're cheap.

[nailsh...@aol.com]

On Dec 22, 6:54 pm, -MIKE- <m...@mikedrumsDOT.com> wrote:

> I think even if there are no problems, that wouldn't be an indicator
> that a better tip might yield better results.

Very true. Temperature, humidity, and thickness of application may
have as much to do with your finish as anything, but fine tuning your
tip for actual use is just as important. You can spray with the wrong
tip (say the 2mm for lacquer) and get away with it. Likewise, you can
shoot a low color saturated latex with a 1.2 tip and get away with it
if you thin enough.

> > I have 1, 1.5 and 2.0 mm needles and tips for my Apollo HVLP. With a .5
> > - 2 lb cut of shellac I would probably start with the 1.5 tip.

If it were me, and sometimes it is, I would hit that 2# shellac one
more time and cut it about 20 - 25% depending on the weather. The
hotter, the less I would thin. I prefer a smaller tip and use a 1.2
mm on my gun, but doubtful you would find any difference. I like to
shoot it thin, just thick enough to hang onto a vertical surface. The
finer tip will put out a finer finish.

As for BIN, I shoot that unthinned out of my gun with a 1.5 tip, and
have shot it with my 1.2 tip as well. A call to Zinsser revealed that
they put in some kind of agents that make it more viscous in the
application than homemade shellac, and they told me that it was
formulated with the knowledge and intent that it would be gun
applied. It is one of the few materials I just pour in the gun and
shoot.

> > How thick a film are you laying down? 3-5 mil?

> HTFSIK?    :-)

It's easy. The preferred application thickness for almost all top
coat clear (including shellac) materials sprayed is 3 mil. Odd, but
it holds true for just about anything I have ever seen. You can apply
more if you want, but 3 mil is the standard. So what does 3 mil look
like? Pull out a dollar bill and check out its thickness.... right at
three mil.

So spray some finish on a test board, take a razor blade and cleanly
scrape away a side so you can see a profile and compare it to your
dollar. Personally, I have never even used a gauge.

You can shoot most latex finishes thicker, and certainly 5 mil is
within that range. For that, I use my 2 mil tip, and during our hot
summers I shoot that unthinned. For more moderate weather, say the
70s, I thin latex about 20%, then shoot it with my 1.8 mil tip. Even
though you don't have to thin latex with a 4 stage turbine or a CAS
gun, it works better for getting a finer finish.

Robert

[Mike Marlow]

nailsh...@aol.com wrote:

>
> If it were me, and sometimes it is, I would hit that 2# shellac one
> more time and cut it about 20 - 25% depending on the weather. The
> hotter, the less I would thin. I prefer a smaller tip and use a 1.2
> mm on my gun, but doubtful you would find any difference. I like to
> shoot it thin, just thick enough to hang onto a vertical surface. The
> finer tip will put out a finer finish.
>

You hit it on the head with the latter part of your statement above. We
tend to think there is some magical "optimum" something or other - even
though most of the people aren't able to hit that anyway... Screw that. A
much simpler approach is exactly what you state above. Thinner is better.
Thick enough to hang in light, even coats. How thick is that? Well.. mix
some up and try it. Try it at different thicknesses, different spraying
speeds. This stuff cannot be reduced to simple instructions on an internet
forum - at some point, ya just gotta get the gun in your hand and try some
things.

Experience will develop your technique. I advocate spraying the wettest
coat you can get without a sag - all in a thin mixture. Why? Because I
paint a lot more than 98% of the people here, and I know that it will work
for you. Now... Robert is much better than I at telling you why, with a
particular product - he's weird - he really digs into this stuff. He knows
things that people just should not be bothered to know...

I won't repeat my previous posts about how to do this - it's all available
in the archives. Besides - you do better at posting this stuff than I do.

Merry Christmas,

--

-Mike-
mmarlo...@windstream.net

[-MIKE-]

Tanks a rot.

[girlso...@gmail.com]

[k...@notreal.com]

On Thu, 16 Mar 2017 19:11:12 -0700 (PDT), girlso...@gmail.com
wrote:

>On Thursday, December 20, 2012 at 7:35:42 AM UTC-8, Swingman wrote:
>> On 12/20/2012 8:34 AM, Leon wrote:
>>
>> > I do not use shellac and I don't spray. ;~(
>>
>> IOW, until Festool comes out with a sprayer, you will continue to just
>> rub ...
>>

]Speaking of HVLP, my gun has a quick-disconnect with a 1/2" ID
(~.54") and a .7" OD. I can't find these anywhere. I'd like to use a
cheap gone but they seem to be standard 1/4". What do most HVLP
systems use? Any idea where I can find the above connector and more
importantly, some way to convert between them?

[whit3rd]

On Thursday, March 16, 2017 at 7:26:30 PM UTC-7, k...@notreal.com wrote:

> ]Speaking of HVLP, my gun has a quick-disconnect with a 1/2" ID

> (~.54") and a .7" OD. ...Any idea where I can find the above connector and more

> importantly, some way to convert between them?

Obviously, you could unscrew the fitting from the gun and put another in its place.
Possibly you'd prefer an oil trap/air dryer with the matching output, fit with hoses
that never are used on raw compressed air, for the "better finish experience".

This outfit has a selection

<https://www.mcmaster.com/#standard-quick-disconnect-hose-couplings>

[k...@notreal.com]

On Sat, 18 Mar 2017 02:58:07 -0700 (PDT), whit3rd <whi...@gmail.com>
wrote:

>On Thursday, March 16, 2017 at 7:26:30 PM UTC-7, k...@notreal.com wrote:
>
>> ]Speaking of HVLP, my gun has a quick-disconnect with a 1/2" ID
>> (~.54") and a .7" OD. ...Any idea where I can find the above connector and more
>> importantly, some way to convert between them?
>
>Obviously, you could unscrew the fitting from the gun and put another in its place.
>Possibly you'd prefer an oil trap/air dryer with the matching output, fit with hoses
>that never are used on raw compressed air, for the "better finish experience".

That's the point. I want to unscrew the fitting from other guns and
fit one like this (this is the one on the system).

>
>This outfit has a selection
>
><https://www.mcmaster.com/#standard-quick-disconnect-hose-couplings>

I'll look more closely but I didn't see anything when I looked a while
back. Who knew that there were so many incompatible connectors?

[Brewster]

Take a walk down the local big-box plumbing aisle some day 8^)

For these instances I usually use some rubber tubing and hose clamps.....


The trick is to first identify the trade name for the fitting, then do a
search. In my experience any non-proprietary type fittings are still
available, somewhere.

-BR

[John McCoy]

k...@notreal.com wrote in
news:kciqcc5lqjnbg398t...@4ax.com:

> I'll look more closely but I didn't see anything when I looked a while
> back. Who knew that there were so many incompatible connectors?

LOL. I used to work with a couple of guys who absolutely
hated the idea of incompatible air tool connectors. Every
so often one of them would spend half a day putting new
connectors on things, with a lot of fussing and cussing, so
they'd all be the same. Of course, he'd miss a few, so a
while later the other guy would spend half a day putting
the other style on everything, with even more cussing and
fussing.

Fun guys to work with, tho.

John

[k...@notreal.com]

On Sat, 18 Mar 2017 02:58:07 -0700 (PDT), whit3rd <whi...@gmail.com>
wrote:

>On Thursday, March 16, 2017 at 7:26:30 PM UTC-7, k...@notreal.com wrote:
>
>> ]Speaking of HVLP, my gun has a quick-disconnect with a 1/2" ID
>> (~.54") and a .7" OD. ...Any idea where I can find the above connector and more
>> importantly, some way to convert between them?
>
>Obviously, you could unscrew the fitting from the gun and put another in its place.
>Possibly you'd prefer an oil trap/air dryer with the matching output, fit with hoses

^^^^^^^^^^

>that never are used on raw compressed air, for the "better finish experience".

^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^'

BTW, it's an HVLP system, not LVHP. The hose is 3/4".

[whit3rd]

On Saturday, March 18, 2017 at 6:27:00 PM UTC-7, k...@notreal.com wrote:
> On Sat, 18 Mar 2017 02:58:07 -0700 (PDT), whit3rd <whi...@gmail.com>
> wrote:
>
> >On Thursday, March 16, 2017 at 7:26:30 PM UTC-7, k...@notreal.com wrote:
> >
> >> ]Speaking of HVLP, my gun has a quick-disconnect with a 1/2" ID
> >> (~.54") and a .7" OD. ...Any idea where I can find the above connector and more
> >> importantly, some way to convert between them?

> BTW, it's an HVLP system, not LVHP. The hose is 3/4".

Only a few of them fit 3/4" hose: <https://www.mcmaster.com/#6534k123/=16tgqhz>
perhaps?

[k...@notreal.com]

On Sun, 19 Mar 2017 00:10:21 -0700 (PDT), whit3rd <whi...@gmail.com>

wrote:

>On Saturday, March 18, 2017 at 6:27:00 PM UTC-7, k...@notreal.com wrote:
>> On Sat, 18 Mar 2017 02:58:07 -0700 (PDT), whit3rd <whi...@gmail.com>
>> wrote:
>>
>> >On Thursday, March 16, 2017 at 7:26:30 PM UTC-7, k...@notreal.com wrote:
>> >
>> >> ]Speaking of HVLP, my gun has a quick-disconnect with a 1/2" ID
>> >> (~.54") and a .7" OD. ...Any idea where I can find the above connector and more
>> >> importantly, some way to convert between them?
>
>> BTW, it's an HVLP system, not LVHP. The hose is 3/4".
>
>Only a few of them fit 3/4" hose: <https://www.mcmaster.com/#6534k123/=16tgqhz>
>perhaps?

Just to finish up the story. I found the quick connect connectors.
Who wudda thunk they'd be garden hose connectors. Now all I need is
to do is play in HD for a while to come up with a reasonable adapter
from a hose thread to 1/4" NPT.

[Unknown]

k...@notreal.com wrote in
news:p36edchtq2no6h66s...@4ax.com:

>
> Just to finish up the story. I found the quick connect connectors.
> Who wudda thunk they'd be garden hose connectors. Now all I need is
> to do is play in HD for a while to come up with a reasonable adapter
> from a hose thread to 1/4" NPT.
>

If you get stuck, I've pieced together such an adapter. I'd be willing
to disect it and give you an idea of what to look for. (Although, if I
recall it was a single trip to the store deal so it wasn't that hard.)

I was using mine to clear the water in the garden hose so I could leave
it outside when the weather was below freezing, but found I was better
off with a rapid reel hose reel that let me bring the hose inside the
garage.

Puckdropper
--
http://www.puckdroppersplace.us/rec.woodworking
A mini archive of some of rec.woodworking's best and worst!

[Brewster]

I have a can full of those things....

They seem to come with the spray attachment sets nowadays (the sets that
all seem to last only a year).

I use my compressor to flush the irrigation system yearly and use these
connects to attach to the hose bib. I found cheap brass garden hose
repair fittings at the local WallyWorld, this get you to a 5/8" hose
barb. From there I soldered on a 1/4" brass nipple to get to a 1/4" MPT,
much cheaper than finding an adapter, but you can easily get a hose
thread to 3/4" pipe adapter (brass) and downsize from there (at a cost).

-BR

[k...@notreal.com]

On 26 Mar 2017 02:13:00 GMT, Puckdropper

<puckdropper(at)yahoo(dot)com> wrote:

>k...@notreal.com wrote in
>news:p36edchtq2no6h66s...@4ax.com:
>
>>
>> Just to finish up the story. I found the quick connect connectors.
>> Who wudda thunk they'd be garden hose connectors. Now all I need is
>> to do is play in HD for a while to come up with a reasonable adapter
>> from a hose thread to 1/4" NPT.
>>
>
>If you get stuck, I've pieced together such an adapter. I'd be willing
>to disect it and give you an idea of what to look for. (Although, if I
>recall it was a single trip to the store deal so it wasn't that hard.)

Thanks. I went to the Borg today and figured out a couple of ways of
doing it. It depends on how awkward the thing is, which way I go.

>
>I was using mine to clear the water in the garden hose so I could leave
>it outside when the weather was below freezing, but found I was better
>off with a rapid reel hose reel that let me bring the hose inside the
>garage.

I just let mine drain as I "roll" it up for the last time each season.
I'm sure there is still water in it but it doesn't stay out anyway
(one hibernates in the garage, the other in the basement).