Best screw head that won't strip

[Michael]

I can't decide which is better, the square or the star? Which is less likely to strip?

Thanks.

[Mike Marlow]

Michael wrote:

> I can't decide which is better, the square or the star? Which is less
> likely to strip?
>

Personally, I came to like the square drives because I found them to be far
superior to a philips drive, but since I went to star drives, I don't think
I'll ever go back unless the screw I need does not come in star. Just watch
your drive tips. They last a long time but at some point they will start to
round and you'll want to replace them. Like I say though - they will last a
long time.

--

-Mike-
mmarlo...@windstream.net

[p...@patwarner.com]

On Thursday, July 31, 2014 6:07:24 AM UTC-7, Michael wrote:
> I can't decide which is better, the square or the star? Which is less likely to strip? Thanks.

Socket head caps will stand the test of time.
http://patwarner.com/images/tsweb4767.jpg
**********************************

[John Grossbohlin]

"Michael" wrote in message
news:e2d84717-dd5e-417a...@googlegroups.com...

>I can't decide which is better, the square or the star? Which is less
>likely to strip?

Torx/star provides more contact area between the bit and screw, has no
cam-out tendency, and is less likely to strip out... The risk of snapping
them off in hard woods (physically hard, not hardwoods vs. softwoods)
without predrilling goes up too! Ask me how I know that... ;~)

John

[Leon]

On 7/31/2014 8:07 AM, Michael wrote:
> I can't decide which is better, the square or the star? Which is less likely to strip?
>
> Thanks.
>

My experience is that the star has a more positive engagement and the
bit does not need to be as perfectly aligned with the screw to prevent
caming out. And the star bit engages more easily than the square drive
bit. The screw strips when the bit cams out.

[G. Ross]

Michael wrote: > I can't decide which is better, the square or the star? Which is less likely to strip? > Thanks. One thing I found out. It is easy to get paint out of a slotted screw to remove the screw. Next easiest is a square drive. I just had to replace the surface boards on some outside steps. They were fixed with square drive screws. The holes were full of paint, grit and crud. I dug most of it out with a slim awl then inserted a spare square drive bit and tapped it with a small hammer. Then the bit on the impact driver slipped right in and backed them out. Not sure I could have done this with a star drive screw, but maybe so. For general use I vote for the star. GW Ross It is the journey that matters, in the end.

[Leon]

I am going to have to say that socket head cap screws come in a variety
of harnesses. I have run across many, think Ikey furniture assembly
screws, that are less than desirable, the wrench does distort the screw
head. On the other hand I use a higher quality screw to mount my router
to the router table and while these screws seem to get tighter over
time, I have never seen any degradation of the hex recess. These
particular screws have held so tightly that cheaper brand hex wrenches
will actually cam out and or distort. With a quality hex wrench I toss
a towel over the screw and hex wrench and use a short piece of pipe for
leverage. The towel is to catch the shrapnel should the wrench break.

[Markem]

On Thu, 31 Jul 2014 06:07:24 -0700 (PDT), Michael
<michael...@gmail.com> wrote:

>I can't decide which is better, the square or the star? Which is less likely to strip?

I like the square, but have found the star bit to be less costly. Why
you ask, I have replace a large number of #2 square bits.

[Leon]

FWIW I have had great success with using an impact driver to remove
screws that are corroded, filled with putty and or paint. The impact
action seems to work the drive bit in with out doing much precleaning of
the head.

[-MIKE-]

I've found that a perfectly mated bit/screw combo is the key.
I have a sheetrock Phillips screw bit that holds so tightly to the screw
it can actually be a bit of a PITA to get the screw off when removing.
Same with square head. If I'm driving square heads with a well mated
bit, the bit often comes off the drill extension because it's stuck to
the screw. Star heads have shown promise for me since starting to use
them regularly. Like Marlow said, the bits can round off at tip, so
have some spares.

I honestly don't have a preference, but if I had to choose one to use
the rest of my life it would be the Phillips Square-Driv, which is a
combo square/Phillips head. I like this because you can take them out
with either screw driver. Very convenient. The proper sized bit holds
and drives as well as *any* other bit/head combo I've ever used.



--

-MIKE-

"Playing is not something I do at night, it's my function in life"
--Elvin Jones (1927-2004)
--
http://mikedrums.com
mi...@mikedrumsDOT.com
---remove "DOT" ^^^^ to reply

[John Grossbohlin]

"G. Ross" wrote in message
news:ct2dnaAno_bv00fO...@giganews.com...

Michael wrote:
> I can't decide which is better, the square or the star? Which is less
> likely to strip?
>
> Thanks.

>One thing I found out. It is easy to get paint out of a slotted screw to
>remove the screw. Next easiest is a square drive. I just had to replace
>the surface boards on some outside steps. They were fixed with square
>drive screws. The holes were full of paint, grit and crud. I dug most of
>it out with a slim awl then inserted a spare square drive bit and tapped it
>with a small hammer. Then the bit on the impact driver slipped right in
>and backed them out. Not sure I could have done this with a star drive
>screw, but maybe so.

In cases like this, depending upon access, I split the boards and/or pry
them off and then remove the screws with vice-grips... it's faster and less
frustrating!

[Ed Pawlowski]

On 7/31/2014 10:40 AM, -MIKE- wrote:

>
> I honestly don't have a preference, but if I had to choose one to use
> the rest of my life it would be the Phillips Square-Driv, which is a
> combo square/Phillips head. I like this because you can take them out
> with either screw driver. Very convenient. The proper sized bit holds
> and drives as well as *any* other bit/head combo I've ever used.
>
>
>

Not a factor for me. Everything I've ever built has been perfect and
durable so I've never had the need to take a screw out.

[Swingman]

On 7/31/2014 8:07 AM, Michael wrote:
> I can't decide which is better, the square or the star? Which is less likely to strip?

IME, it is not the screws so much as the bits. The wrong size and/or
cheap, worn bit will be a problem sooner rather than later, no matter
which screw head you chose.


--
eWoodShop: www.eWoodShop.com
Wood Shop: www.e-WoodShop.net
https://www.google.com/+eWoodShop
https://plus.google.com/+KarlCaillouet/posts
http://www.custommade.com/by/ewoodshop/
KarlCaillouet@ (the obvious)

[Larry Blanchard]

I like the square drive because the driver will hold the screw for easier
work in difficult to reach locations. I haven't tried the star so maybe
it does the same.

[Puckdropper at dot]

Larry Blanchard <lbl...@fastmail.fm> wrote in
news:lrdscv$kb9$1...@speranza.aioe.org:

>
> I like the square drive because the driver will hold the screw for
> easier work in difficult to reach locations. I haven't tried the star
> so maybe it does the same.

I hadn't really noticed the screws wanting to stick on the bits with the
stars. The way they work, transmiting torque via the lobes, it's possible
for the fit to be loose or sloppy and still drive screws perfectly.

Puckdropper
--
Make it to fit, don't make it fit.

[Michael]

On Thursday, July 31, 2014 8:07:24 AM UTC-5, Michael wrote:
> I can't decide which is better, the square or the star? Which is less likely to strip?
>
>
>
> Thanks.

Thanks for the info! I can't think of a better place for this kind of help.

[k...@attt.bizz]

Star (Torx) does the same. ...in spades. I'll spend a pretty good
premium to get the star heads. The exception is sheetrock screws,
where the Phillips head really is needed. The Phillips head is
designed to cam out.

[cl...@snyder.on.ca]

On Thu, 31 Jul 2014 06:07:24 -0700 (PDT), Michael
<michael...@gmail.com> wrote:

The square "robertson" screw wins hands down for strip-proof. Against
ANY other common design

[cl...@snyder.on.ca]

On Thu, 31 Jul 2014 09:25:06 -0400, "Mike Marlow"

By "star" I assume you mean Torx??? They are good, but they will
strip a lot easier than the square "robertson" Takes a lot to wear or
damage a robertson driver to the point it will slip.

[cl...@snyder.on.ca]

On Thu, 31 Jul 2014 16:54:55 +0000 (UTC), Larry Blanchard
<lbl...@fastmail.fm> wrote:

Torx will do it too - bit not quite as well as the Robertson.

[cl...@snyder.on.ca]

On Thu, 31 Jul 2014 09:12:03 -0500, Leon <lcb11211@swbelldotnet>
wrote:

(when, not if!!)

[k...@attt.bizz]

I find exactly the opposite. Torx (star) are much better. I find the
screws aren't nearly precise enough for the Robertson (or "square head
recess") to work as well as it should.

[whit3rd]

On Thursday, July 31, 2014 7:25:50 PM UTC-7, cl...@snyder.on.ca wrote:
> On Thu, 31 Jul 2014 09:25:06 -0400, "Mike Marlow"
>
> <mmarlo...@windstream.net> wrote:

> >> I can't decide which is better, the square or the star? Which is less
> >> likely to strip?

> By "star" I assume you mean Torx??? They are good, but they will
> strip a lot easier than the square "robertson" Takes a lot to wear or
> damage a robertson driver to the point it will slip.

Square drive/Robertson tips are tapered; the harder you push,
the greater the drive surfaces contact forces become. So, you can drive
them very hard. But when you want to REMOVE a screw, you don't
want to apply a push (this hurts you because it increases friction).

Torx/star tips are straight-sided, you get equal torque limits in
drive and remove operations. So they're easier to remove.

Philips/crosspoint, like Robertson/square, are tapered, and can
be difficult to remove.

[-MIKE-]

On 8/1/14, 3:45 PM, whit3rd wrote:
> But when you want to REMOVE a screw, you don't
> want to apply a push (this hurts you because it increases friction).
>

I don't get this. Why not push when removing?

[Bill]

-MIKE- wrote:
> On 8/1/14, 3:45 PM, whit3rd wrote:
>> But when you want to REMOVE a screw, you don't
>> want to apply a push (this hurts you because it increases friction).
>>
>
> I don't get this. Why not push when removing?

For the same reason you lift your feet when you walk.



>
>

[-MIKE-]

I don't get that either. A screw is a helical ramp, more or less. You
turn it to go in and come out. The farther the screw is in, the more
friction/resistance there is in both directions. Most often, I find it
necessary to push on a screw when removing it, at least until it's a
good deal out.

What am I missing?

[Grant Edwards]

On 2014-08-01, -MIKE- <mi...@mikedrumsDOT.com> wrote:
> On 8/1/14, 3:45 PM, whit3rd wrote:
>> But when you want to REMOVE a screw, you don't
>> want to apply a push (this hurts you because it increases friction).
>>
>
> I don't get this. Why not push when removing?

Because the objective is to _raise_ the screw. Pusing down on it
makes that harder to do and thus requires more torque to raise it. To
get more torque without cam-out yout have to push harder, which then
requires more torque to raise the screw, which requires you to push
harder...

--
Grant

[Ed Pawlowski]

On 8/1/2014 8:25 PM, Grant Edwards wrote:
> On 2014-08-01, -MIKE- <mi...@mikedrumsDOT.com> wrote:
>> On 8/1/14, 3:45 PM, whit3rd wrote:
>>> But when you want to REMOVE a screw, you don't
>>> want to apply a push (this hurts you because it increases friction).
>>>
>>
>> I don't get this. Why not push when removing?
>

> Because the objective is to _raise_ the screw. Pushing down on it

> makes that harder to do and thus requires more torque to raise it. To

> get more torque without cam-out you have to push harder, which then

> requires more torque to raise the screw, which requires you to push
> harder...
>

Theory aside, when the head is buggered, pushing gets it out, not
pushing makes the bit slip. One law of physics out does the other.

[-MIKE-]

Yeeeeeeeaaaahh, OK. wow

[Bill]

-MIKE- wrote:
> On 8/1/14, 5:20 PM, Bill wrote:
>> -MIKE- wrote:
>>> On 8/1/14, 3:45 PM, whit3rd wrote:
>>>> But when you want to REMOVE a screw, you don't
>>>> want to apply a push (this hurts you because it increases friction).
>>>>
>>>
>>> I don't get this. Why not push when removing?
>>
>> For the same reason you lift your feet when you walk.
>>
>
> I don't get that either. A screw is a helical ramp, more or less.
> You turn it to go in and come out. The farther the screw is in, the
> more friction/resistance there is in both directions. Most often, I
> find it necessary to push on a screw when removing it, at least until
> it's a good deal out.
>
> What am I missing?
>
>

Well, I should clarify my remark, since there appears to be at least 2
factors:
1. The friction (between the bottom of the screw head, and the
workpiece) that I alluded to.
2. The fact that you are pushing "down" when you wish for the screw to
come "up", that has been mentioned.

[Grant Edwards]

True. But the point is you're better off using a screw head and bit
design that minimizes the amount of pushing required -- especially
when removing a screw since the pushing is forcing the screw in the
"wrong" direction.

--
Grant

[k...@attt.bizz]

That doesn't mean pushing down is making it easier (than it would be
were a different head chosen up-front).

[Ed Pawlowski]

In a perfect world. . .


If you are removing screws above you, you can defy gravity and push "up"
to get the screws out.

[cl...@snyder.on.ca]

I guess there is a difference between the generic "square-drive" now
being sold in the USA and the original Canadian Robertson (or Scrulox)
screws and screwdrivers. I know I've seen a lot af really crappy
square drive screwdrivers recently, and a lot of REALLY crappy screws
of all types with Chinese lettering on the boxes.. And the difference
between pozi-drive, Reed and Prince (aka Freerson), and Philips screws
and drivers causes a LOT of problems because they look so similar but
are virtually incompatible.

[cl...@snyder.on.ca]

On Fri, 01 Aug 2014 21:59:30 -0400, Bill <BILL_...@whoknows.net>

I smell a scarlet colored fish.

[cl...@snyder.on.ca]

Anyone with a torque screw driver want to do a test? Drive several
identical screws into severel peices of different woods then read the
torque required to remove them with no downward force, and with , say,
5, 10, and 15 lbs of force pressing on the screw and tabulate the
results? In both hard wood and soft wood - and using both steel and
brass screws.
I'd be willing to bet the difference in torque required would be
within the limits of the torque required to lift the downward force
treating the screw as a simple inclined plane. (in other words,
insignificant).

[cl...@snyder.on.ca]

On Fri, 01 Aug 2014 20:29:40 -0500, -MIKE- <mi...@mikedrumsDOT.com>

wrote:

>On 8/1/14, 7:25 PM, Grant Edwards wrote:
>> On 2014-08-01, -MIKE- <mi...@mikedrumsDOT.com> wrote:
>>> On 8/1/14, 3:45 PM, whit3rd wrote:
>>>> But when you want to REMOVE a screw, you don't
>>>> want to apply a push (this hurts you because it increases friction).
>>>>
>>>
>>> I don't get this. Why not push when removing?
>>
>> Because the objective is to _raise_ the screw. Pusing down on it
>> makes that harder to do and thus requires more torque to raise it. To
>> get more torque without cam-out yout have to push harder, which then
>> requires more torque to raise the screw, which requires you to push
>> harder...
>>
>
>Yeeeeeeeaaaahh, OK. wow

Like I said - a scarlet fish -(red herring)

[Bill]

Since the amount that you wish to raise the screw head with a twist of
the wrist is very, very, small, I think the
effect you describe may be negligible. Of course, the wider the
threads, the greater the effect. I could probably
design a screw that would be difficult to unscrew by pushing down on
it! ; )

Bill

[Bill]

I have a hunch this thread isn't over yet! ; )

[jloomis]

Torque drive.
octagonal design.

throw away square.
john



"Michael" wrote in message
news:e2d84717-dd5e-417a...@googlegroups.com...

I can't decide which is better, the square or the star? Which is less likely
to strip?

Thanks.

[Grant Edwards]

On 2014-08-02, jloomis <jlo...@oceans.net> wrote:

> Torque drive.
> octagonal design.
>
> throw away square.

OK, so square (four sides) is better than slot (two sides), and
octagonal (eight sides) is even better than four sides, the logical
conclusion would seem to be than the more sides the better.

Take that to the limit as sides -> infinity, and you get what must
be the best of all: round drive (or as it is usually known: cheap
philips head screws after use with the wrong sized driver).

--
Grant

[John Grossbohlin]

wrote in message news:pcrot91v9no54j1qi...@4ax.com...

>I'd be willing to bet the difference in torque required would be
>within the limits of the torque required to lift the downward force
>treating the screw as a simple inclined plane. (in other words,
>insignificant).

I think the initial "breaking loose" of the screw to get it to turn requires
more down pressure and torque than does the following turns... I think back
to the days of working on motorcycles and using an impact driver that was
hit with a hammer to break Phillips head screws free as an extreme example.
A less extreme example is when I've hit the handle of the screw driver with
a hammer as I put rotational force upon it to break the screw free. More
typically I push down hard with the screw driver to break the screw free and
them use primarily rotational torque to remove them. When using a powered
driver (usually my PC drywall driver) with various bits the same dynamic
occurs... I need a lot more down pressure to break the screws loose than to
remove them.

John

[Puckdropper at dot]

Grant Edwards <inv...@invalid.invalid> wrote in news:lrirnm$7r9$1
@reader1.panix.com:

>
> OK, so square (four sides) is better than slot (two sides), and
> octagonal (eight sides) is even better than four sides, the logical
> conclusion would seem to be than the more sides the better.
>
> Take that to the limit as sides -> infinity, and you get what must
> be the best of all: round drive (or as it is usually known: cheap
> philips head screws after use with the wrong sized driver).
>

There's probably some truth in that... But remember the bit you used to
make the round isn't making a good quality round. It's kinda like those
Combo drive screws or the square drives that are almost, but not quite,
compatible.

Make a good quality round, use a good quality round bit, and pull rather
than push and the screw will come out easily.

(Do be careful not to make the round too round. You might wind up cold
welding the bit to the screw. :-))

Puckdropper
--
Make it to fit, don't make it fit.

[k...@attt.bizz]

Oh, good grief!

[k...@attt.bizz]

On Sat, 02 Aug 2014 01:47:10 -0400, Bill <BILL_...@whoknows.net>
wrote:

It's not. Friction is proportional to the normal force applied, so
force applied to the head of the screw does increase the friction of
the screw threads against the material.
>

[k...@attt.bizz]

We were talking about screw selection. In my world, I choose what
screws I use. If I didn't build the deck, chances are it's a total
loss because the fasteners aren't coming out.

>If you are removing screws above you, you can defy gravity and push "up"
>to get the screws out.

Please.

[k...@attt.bizz]

Your test is silly beyond belief. Now try it with screws that have
weathered for a decade.

[whit3rd]

On Friday, August 1, 2014 8:12:41 PM UTC-7, Ed Pawlowski wrote:

> In a perfect world. . .
>
> If you are removing screws above you, you can defy gravity and push "up"
> to get the screws out.

Yeah, there IS a screw head design that allows you to pull. The
screw has a dovetail slot, curved so the driver can be positioned
at one edge and rocked into the slot. This scheme is not
compatible with magnet-held hex shank bits.

[Bill]

I agree with you. I think there are several factors at play here.

[cl...@snyder.on.ca]

Except, particularly in a woodscrew (and this IS a woodworking group)
the pressure applied against the threads of the screw by the
compression of the wood fibers is SO much more than the pressure you
are applying to hold the screwdriver in, that the pressure you are
applying is totally insignificant.
And in th case of a machine screw, the pressure applied to the surface
by the head due to the torque of the screw, and it's torsional stress,
again makes ANY pressure you are going to apply TOTALLY irrelevent.
The friction on the upper surface of the thread due to the installed
tension will be 10 or more times what the friction on the bottom of
the screw thread would be from the pressure you apply.

In FACT, hitting a screw on the head while turning it is a well known,
shop worn method of removing a stuck screw or bolt.

Again - I say "red herring"

[cl...@snyder.on.ca]

Not nearly as "beyond belief" as thinking the pressure you apply to
the head of a screw to keep the driver engaged is going to increase
the torque required to remove screws that have weathered a decade due
to increased friction in the threads!!!!

You really do not have a CLUE.

[k...@attt.bizz]

If that were true, very little torque would be necessary to remove
them.

>And in th case of a machine screw, the pressure applied to the surface
>by the head due to the torque of the screw, and it's torsional stress,

Exactly what is "tortional stress" and how does "stress" relate to the
amount of torque it requires to remove a screw? I've never seen that
one in a physics book.

>again makes ANY pressure you are going to apply TOTALLY irrelevent.
>The friction on the upper surface of the thread due to the installed
>tension will be 10 or more times what the friction on the bottom of
>the screw thread would be from the pressure you apply.

Wrong. The friction on the threads is quite relevant.

>
>In FACT, hitting a screw on the head while turning it is a well known,
>shop worn method of removing a stuck screw or bolt.

No, that is NOT how screw removers work.

>Again - I say "red herring"

I say you're throwing bullshit to see what sticks.

[k...@attt.bizz]

Sorry, but physics being what it is, friction matters.

>
>You really do not have a CLUE.

Come on, throw some more bullshit when you're called on it.

[cl...@snyder.on.ca]

Pardon? The friction provided by the wood gripping the screw is what
makes a screw difficult to remove. The friction between the wood and
the threads, plus the friction between the wood and the shank.. If
anything, putting pressure on the screw would DECREASE the friction on
the top of the threads while increasing the friction on the bottom -
either netting out or reducing the total friction on the screw - so
either keepi ng the required torque the same or less. Certainly no
great increase in required torque.

>
>>And in th case of a machine screw, the pressure applied to the surface
>>by the head due to the torque of the screw, and it's torsional stress,
>
>Exactly what is "tortional stress" and how does "stress" relate to the
>amount of torque it requires to remove a screw? I've never seen that
>one in a physics book.

OK - I'm not a physics major - just a dumb mechanic. The tension load
placed on the screw by virtue of the torque applied to the fastener
puts very high pressure on the interface between the head of the
fastener and the surface of the material being bolted together. The
pressure can be in the hundreds of lbs. The break-away torque required
to overcome the stiction between the screw head and the bolted
material is often significantly more than the torque required to
continue turning the fastener after it is broken loose. The force
required to overcome the "static friction" in the threads - breaking
the bonds of rust and corrosion, is also quite substantial. So is the
"running friction" between a corroded fastener and the internal
threads of the material being fastened, or the nut. So substantial as
to render the incredibly small amount of extra friction caused by even
40 lbs of pressure applied to the screwdriver to keep the driver in
the head of the screw almost totally incosequential.

>>again makes ANY pressure you are going to apply TOTALLY irrelevent.
>>The friction on the upper surface of the thread due to the installed
>>tension will be 10 or more times what the friction on the bottom of
>>the screw thread would be from the pressure you apply.
>
>Wrong. The friction on the threads is quite relevant.

Again - you are not reading what was said very well for a PHD in
Physics (or someone who plays one on TV) Nowhere did I say the
friction on the threads is irrelevant. I said your contribution to the
friction on the threads is totally irrelevent. Your effect on the
universe is greatly overestimated.

>>
>>In FACT, hitting a screw on the head while turning it is a well known,
>>shop worn method of removing a stuck screw or bolt.
>
>No, that is NOT how screw removers work.

Who said anything about "screw removers" by which I assume you are
referring to "impact drivers" which you hit with a hammer, causing a
cam to rotate the fastener. I'm talking about beating the bejeapers
out of the head of a bolt while pulling on a wrench to break free a
seized bolt. It is a VERY effective method of breaking loose large
threaded fasteners in old equipment.

>
>>Again - I say "red herring"
>
>I say you're throwing bullshit to see what sticks.

Nope. I have removed thousands of stubborn fasteners from old
equipment over the last 50 years. Some of them litterally seized by
"bullshit" which can REALLY make things stick. Ever try removing bolts
from the apron chain of an old shit-spreader????

[cl...@snyder.on.ca]

On Sat, 02 Aug 2014 18:36:24 -0400, k...@attt.bizz wrote:

>
>Come on, throw some more bullshit when you're called on it.

The bullshit is all going one way - and you are not the recipient.

[k...@attt.bizz]

Keep spreading it. You're good.

[k...@attt.bizz]

On Sun, 3 Aug 2014 05:07:58 +0000 (UTC), Baxter
<lbax02_s...@baxcode.com> wrote:

>k...@attt.bizz wrote in news:rjpqt9ds15htcobt8...@4ax.com:

>That device is not what is termed a "screw remover". I have to side with
>clare on this one - I have such a device in my toolbox - albeit for metal
>and not wood, but the principle is the same: you insert the tool into the
>screw head, apply torque, then hit the end with a hammer. The tool has a
>heavy spring inside and a spiral mechanism - when you hit it with a hammer,
>it applies more torque than you can apply with your hands - plus vibration,
>etc.

This sounds like an impact wrench. The impact of the hammer is
converted to torque. There is some advantage hammering to break
metal-metal binding (essentially a "weld") but you're applying torque
constantly. The impact only increases friction for the milliseconds
of the impact. Sorry, physics doesn't care about consensus.

[cl...@snyder.on.ca]

And stuck bolts don't care about theoretical physics. Have you ever
had to remove any REALLY stuck bolts?? Your physics theory won't
remove them. And I can guarantee you would not be able to measure the
amount of extra torque required to remove a stuck bolt due to the
extra friction (if any) caused by pushing on the screwdriver to hold
the bit in the head without extremely accurate lab measurement
equipment.(and a good dose of imagination)

[JAS]

>>
> And stuck bolts don't care about theoretical physics. Have you ever
> had to remove any REALLY stuck bolts??
>

I have a stuck bolt right now holding a lawnmower blade on that belongs
to my neighbor lady, removed two of the blades but the third one will
not budge. I have used an impact wrench but someone had rounded the bolt
before and even tapping a smaller fraction size on it will not grab good
enough. Tried vice grips and pipe wrench--what next, maybe heat. I am
afraid it will break and then the mower will be toast, it is an old John
Deere her husband had before passing away. Any ideas?

JAS

[Mike Marlow]

Ugh! been there done that. You're kinda screwed at this point so why not
go for broke? I'd put heat to it but as always with heat - pay attention
and don't just put a ton of heat on there that you really don't need. Is it
a bolt or a nut? If it's a nut, then heat just the nut to the point that
it's wanting to turn red. Then get on it with your gun or your wrench.
Or... with your wench... If it's a bolt then, be careful - you just don't
have a lot of structural material to work with there. Heat up the head of
the bolt to red hot and hope you achieve enough heat transfer to allow you
to back it out. You can try products like breakfree or pb blaster - and they
do work - just not all the time. It's kind of hit and miss with those.

--

-Mike-
mmarlo...@windstream.net

[Markem]

On Sun, 03 Aug 2014 20:22:59 -0600, JAS <jasfor...@outlook.com>
wrote:

Heat and then cool with WD40

[Leon]

On 8/3/2014 4:19 PM, Baxter wrote:
> k...@attt.bizz wrote in news:qikst99tj65r3ee2u...@4ax.com:

> Well, "impact driver" - http://tinyurl.com/l3r9abp
>
> Given subsequent posts to the one I responded to, I have no idea what
> either party is really talking about. My post here may or may not have
> any applicability.




LOL. Yes your reference is certainly an impact driver and it does, with
a blow of a hammer, exert a forward and a twisting force to loosen or
tighten a screw.

Below is probably the other style being talked about that most of
today's wood workers are more familiar with. And these too do a good
good at removing compromised screw heads. I remodeled a kitchen some
years back and the owners thought it would be a good idea to fill the
screw heads with a hard wood putty. My Makita impact worked very well
with getting the screws out despite the fact that the heads were filled.

http://www.amazon.com/Makita-LXDT04CW-18-Volt-Lithium-Ion-Cordless/dp/B007P2EJSU/ref=sr_1_6?s=hi&ie=UTF8&qid=1407156701&sr=1-6&keywords=makita+18v+impact+driver+kit

[Leon]

3 blades? Do they all turn in the same direction? If any spin in the
opposite direction the bolt will also for loosening or tightening.''Look
at how the belts wind around the pulleys.

[Leon]

Should have mentioned that If a blade turns in an opposite direction the
bolt will loosen in the same opposite direction. Retaining bolts and
nuts loosen in the same direction that the object spins with few
exceptions. Automotive wheels being an exception unless you look at
some old Chrysler products.

[Puckdropper at dot]

JAS <jasfor...@outlook.com> wrote in news:lrmqq7$d71$1...@dont-email.me:

> I have a stuck bolt right now holding a lawnmower blade on that belongs
> to my neighbor lady, removed two of the blades but the third one will
> not budge. I have used an impact wrench but someone had rounded the bolt
> before and even tapping a smaller fraction size on it will not grab good
> enough. Tried vice grips and pipe wrench--what next, maybe heat. I am
> afraid it will break and then the mower will be toast, it is an old John
> Deere her husband had before passing away. Any ideas?
>
> JAS

Sometimes the best option is to give up. If the blade isn't bent or
otherwise damaged, it may have to be treated as a permanent part of the
mower.

[JAS]

Mike Marlow wrote:
Is it
> a bolt or a nut? If it's a nut, then heat just the nut to the point that
> it's wanting to turn red. Then get on it with your gun or your wrench.
> Or... with your wench... If it's a bolt then, be careful - you just don't
> have a lot of structural material to work with there. Heat up the head of
> the bolt to red hot and hope you achieve enough heat transfer to allow you
> to back it out. You can try products like breakfree or pb blaster - and they
> do work - just not all the time. It's kind of hit and miss with those.
>

It,s a bolt holding the blade to the spindle and have to work over head
so no chance to spray WD40 into threads.

[JAS]

Leon wrote:

>
>
> 3 blades? Do they all turn in the same direction? If any spin in the
> opposite direction the bolt will also for loosening or tightening.''Look
> at how the belts wind around the pulleys.

Same direction.

[JAS]

>
> Sometimes the best option is to give up. If the blade isn't bent or
> otherwise damaged, it may have to be treated as a permanent part of the
> mower.
>
> Puckdropper
>

The blade is worn and chipped on the ends as she said she hit a rock.

[Puckdropper at dot]

JAS <jasfor...@outlook.com> wrote in news:lro3kv$h51$3...@dont-email.me:

If you get the blade to move independent of the spindle assembly, it
might just loosen things up enough to remove it. A couple ideas come to
mind, but are more or less "go for broke" ideas.

The first is to hit the blade with a hammer out near the end. Repeated
blows in the loosen direction might be enough to free things up.
Chances are, though, the spindle will want move. This could be
dangerous, especially if the mower has been lifted.

Another is to attach the blade to a lever. I once used carriage bolts
drilled through a 2x4 to make a rebar bender, and something similar may
work here. The minimum is two carriage bolts, one on either side of the
blade, but a third one with a large washer to clamp the lever to the
blade will probably be easier to use. (I find when working under my
mower the hardest part is keeping the tool in place against gravity.)
This will probably have the same spindle movement problem of the first
idea.

Have you priced out replacement spindles?

[cl...@snyder.on.ca]

On Sun, 03 Aug 2014 20:22:59 -0600, JAS <jasfor...@outlook.com>
wrote:

>
>>>

Heat the head of the bolt red hot, and smack it good with a hammer.
Heat it red hot again and quench it with lots of cold water. Then use
a "stripped head bolt remover" socket. If that doesn'r work have
someone arc weld a big nut on the end of the bolt (weld to the head
through the threaded hole of the big nut) and spin it off with the
impact.

[cl...@snyder.on.ca]

Water often works every bit as well as the penetrant. Quenching with
water shocks the rust criystals and makes them real fine - and water
mixed with the ultrafine rust actually acts as a lubricant. Oil based
penetrants have a tendancy to just boil off or burn when you squirt
them on something red hot, and water removes more heat faster.

[cl...@snyder.on.ca]

On Mon, 04 Aug 2014 07:07:23 -0500, Markem <mark...@hotmail.com>
wrote:

Heat then quench with garden hose.

[cl...@snyder.on.ca]

On Mon, 04 Aug 2014 08:31:53 -0500, Leon <lcb11211@swbelldotnet>
wrote:

And old Oldsmobiles, and old Hudsons, and some old British cars, and
--------

[JAS]

Will try the heat and hitting the blade also==I do have a problem
holding the tools up wile lying under the mower as I have had shoulder
surgery and do not have much strength there. If that dose not work I
will have her take it to a repair shop and get a nut welded on and have
them work on it. I doubt if a replacement spindle is available as it is
a 50's or 60's model.
JAS

[Mike Marlow]

I'm not aware of any mower deck that was manufactured as a permanent part.
But - ya do learn something new every day...

--

-Mike-
mmarlo...@windstream.net

[Mike Marlow]

Puckdropper wrote:

> If you get the blade to move independent of the spindle assembly, it
> might just loosen things up enough to remove it. A couple ideas come
> to mind, but are more or less "go for broke" ideas.
>
> The first is to hit the blade with a hammer out near the end.
> Repeated blows in the loosen direction might be enough to free things
> up. Chances are, though, the spindle will want move. This could be
> dangerous, especially if the mower has been lifted.

NO! You'll screw up the bearings in the quill for sure by doing this.

>
> Another is to attach the blade to a lever. I once used carriage bolts
> drilled through a 2x4 to make a rebar bender, and something similar
> may work here. The minimum is two carriage bolts, one on either side
> of the blade, but a third one with a large washer to clamp the lever
> to the blade will probably be easier to use. (I find when working
> under my mower the hardest part is keeping the tool in place against
> gravity.) This will probably have the same spindle movement problem
> of the first idea.
>
> Have you priced out replacement spindles?
>

An impact gun will remove this nut as simple as pie. Just need a big enough
impact gun - not your basic 18v gun.

--

-Mike-
mmarlo...@windstream.net

[Leon]

Not was manufactured as a permanent part but "may have to be treated as
a permanent part" If you cant get it off.

[Mike Marlow]

JAS wrote:

> Will try the heat and hitting the blade also==I do have a problem
> holding the tools up wile lying under the mower as I have had shoulder
> surgery and do not have much strength there. If that dose not work I
> will have her take it to a repair shop and get a nut welded on and
> have them work on it. I doubt if a replacement spindle is available
> as it is a 50's or 60's model.
> JAS

Better be real careful with that heat. You have seals and bearings in
there. Just put an air impact on it and hold the blade in your hand while
you hit it with the gun. This is getting way more complicated than it needs
to be.

Spindles are very likely to be available - look on the internet. And -
ferchristssake - don't try to do this underneath of the damned deck. Are
you trying to be dumb here? Pull the damned deck out and flip it over. The
way you're heading you're assuring yourself of a complete and dismal
failure. Sheese - just pull the deck and put a damned air gun on it.

--

-Mike-
mmarlo...@windstream.net

--

-Mike-
mmarlo...@windstream.net

[Mike Marlow]

See my other post to your "overhead" issue. Just pull the deck. Or lay it
over. Working overhead like you seem to be describing (unless I'm getting
it wrong...) is just dumb.

--

-Mike-
mmarlo...@windstream.net

[Leon]

On 8/4/2014 4:52 PM, Mike Marlow wrote:
> Puckdropper wrote:
>
>> If you get the blade to move independent of the spindle assembly, it
>> might just loosen things up enough to remove it. A couple ideas come
>> to mind, but are more or less "go for broke" ideas.
>>
>> The first is to hit the blade with a hammer out near the end.
>> Repeated blows in the loosen direction might be enough to free things
>> up. Chances are, though, the spindle will want move. This could be
>> dangerous, especially if the mower has been lifted.
>
> NO! You'll screw up the bearings in the quill for sure by doing this.

Quill? :~)

[Mike Marlow]

cl...@snyder.on.ca wrote:

> Heat the head of the bolt red hot, and smack it good with a hammer.
> Heat it red hot again and quench it with lots of cold water. Then use
> a "stripped head bolt remover" socket. If that doesn'r work have
> someone arc weld a big nut on the end of the bolt (weld to the head
> through the threaded hole of the big nut) and spin it off with the
> impact.

Argh! I have to eat some of my own words from posts within the past five
minutes. As I had also said the other day - yes diligently applied heat to
the head of the bolt can indeed work. But - careful and only enough to get
the bolt head itself red - or nearly red. Then... just reach up in there
with your fingers - it should come out rather easily...

--

-Mike-
mmarlo...@windstream.net

[Mike Marlow]

Leon wrote:
> On 8/4/2014 4:52 PM, Mike Marlow wrote:
>> Puckdropper wrote:
>>
>>> If you get the blade to move independent of the spindle assembly, it
>>> might just loosen things up enough to remove it. A couple ideas
>>> come to mind, but are more or less "go for broke" ideas.
>>>
>>> The first is to hit the blade with a hammer out near the end.
>>> Repeated blows in the loosen direction might be enough to free
>>> things up. Chances are, though, the spindle will want move. This
>>> could be dangerous, especially if the mower has been lifted.
>>
>> NO! You'll screw up the bearings in the quill for sure by doing
>> this.
>
> Quill? :~)
>

Some manufacturers refer to the tower assembly that contains the bearings
and that the shaft fits through, as the quill. don't ask me why...]
--

-Mike-
mmarlo...@windstream.net

[Leon]

Mike, do you think he should maybe use an air impact? ;~)

I recall using 1" drive impacts years ago, we used them regularly in a
tire store that I worked in, that easily removed the big rig lug nuts.
And we used one to remove the nut Bush Hog blade, 2" nut IIRC.

[Leon]

Lost in translation probably.

[Mike Marlow]

Leon wrote:

>
> Mike, do you think he should maybe use an air impact? ;~)

Yes! That's what I meant. It will work off a bolt or a nut without turning
the spindle (or whatever else is involved in the process), and will take it
off. I've done a bunch of these - started out frustrating myself with the
wrong tools and then figured out that the air impact was the right tool. It
works.


--

-Mike-
mmarlo...@windstream.net

[Lew Hodgett]

JAS wrote:


> I have a stuck bolt right now holding a lawnmower blade on that
> belongs to my neighbor lady, removed two of the blades but the third
> one will not budge. I have used an impact wrench but someone had
> rounded the bolt before and even tapping a smaller fraction size on
> it will not grab good enough. Tried vice grips and pipe wrench--what
> next, maybe heat. I am afraid it will break and then the mower will
> be toast, it is an old John Deere her husband had before passing
> away. Any ideas?

---------------------------------------------
Kroil and lots of patience.

Lew

[John Grossbohlin]

"JAS" wrote in message news:lrmqq7$d71$1...@dont-email.me...

>I have a stuck bolt right now holding a lawnmower blade on that belongs
>to my neighbor lady, removed two of the blades but the third one will
>not budge. I have used an impact wrench but someone had rounded the bolt
>before and even tapping a smaller fraction size on it will not grab good
>enough. Tried vice grips and pipe wrench--what next, maybe heat. I am
>afraid it will break and then the mower will be toast, it is an old John
>Deere her husband had before passing away. Any ideas?

My gut reaction, after hearing what you tried, is to weld or perhaps braze,
either a nut, or the head end of a bolt, to the mangled bolt and use a
wrench on it. Alternatively, weld a length of black pipe, angle iron, etc.
to the bolt head and use it as the "wrench." In the later case if you cut
out the side of the end of the "wrench" so it fits over the nut you can tack
it on two sides and maybe the top of the damaged bolt head... longer is
better!

John

[cl...@snyder.on.ca]

On Mon, 04 Aug 2014 11:51:52 -0600, JAS <jasfor...@outlook.com>
wrote:

I feel your pain -Had shoulder surgery a few years back - it's better
than before the surgery, but still not 100% - gatta watch what I do
and how.
As for getting parts - I had to make a new spindle shaft for my 24"
mower - about the same age. Lathe comes in handy once in a while!!

[cl...@snyder.on.ca]

On mine I was tearing it down to replace the bearings - which were
shot and had worn a deep groove in the shaft.

But definitely a safer and easier job with the deck upside-down on the
work bench!!!

[cl...@snyder.on.ca]

He needs to get a decent head on the bolt first if he is going to use
an impact. A "grip-tite" socket will grab a worn bolt head, but will
grenade itself if used on a good impact gun (likely on a rotten impact
too)

[cl...@snyder.on.ca]

On Mon, 04 Aug 2014 16:55:38 -0500, Leon <lcb11211@swbelldotnet>
wrote:

One question. Is the spindle boted to the top of the deck or the
bottom? If bolted to the bottom, remove the bulley, unbolt the
assembly from the deck and drop it out - and work on it at the
workbench, or take the spindle and blade to the shop to have the
munged bolt removed.

[JAS]

>>
>
> An impact gun will remove this nut as simple as pie. Just need a big enough
> impact gun - not your basic 18v gun.
>

If you read what I posted, I tried an impact gun [1/2" with 120 psi air]
but the problem is that the bolt head is mangled and the corners rounded
hence the thought of welding a larger nut to it. I raised it with a
cherry picker engine hoist and have a brace under it. I tried to remove
the spindle but the bolts are rusted there also. I am sending her to
tractor mechanic she knows before I end up twisting off the bolts.
Thanks for all advice as I have tried but I have no welder either.
JAS


... Growing old is mandatory; growing up is optional.

[Mike Marlow]

Touche. I had indeed lost track of that - or perhaps didn't notice it in
the beginning. Sorry about that.


--

-Mike-
mmarlo...@windstream.net

[Morgans]

<cl...@snyder.on.ca> wrote in message
news:iufvt9hp2jf84vmqv...@4ax.com...

>>Heat and then cool with WD40

> Heat then quench with garden hose.

I see people recommending to heat to red hot then quench with water or thin
oils, and it makes me cringe a little bit. There are real chances that the
metallurgy of the nut or bolt is going to be significantly changed, and
brittle to the point that it snaps off.

If the goal is to break a nut off, and it is replaceable (not left handed or
something) go for it I guess. I myself would not want to heat up a part
that was going to be used again past straw temperature, which is barely
showing any dull orange at all. If breaking the nut was a reasonable
option, I would just use a mechanical nut buster and be done with it if
impact wrenches and granny helper bars did not do the trick.

By the way, has it been confirmed that the nut that will not come off is not
a left handed nut? If there are three blades, it is most likely that at
least one (the middle blade) is a left handed nut.
--
Jim in NC


---
This email is free from viruses and malware because avast! Antivirus protection is active.
http://www.avast.com

[Leon]

I only mentioned it cause you mentioned it a time or two or four or
five. :~) I was yankin your chain.

[Mike Marlow]

Yeah - sorry about that. I've been putting very little attention into this
hobby of following the newsgroup owing to some intense activity at work, so
I tend to forget what I've already posted - or simply react in the moment,
if you will. Kind of embarassing in a way when it's called to my attention,
I have to admit...

--

-Mike-
mmarlo...@windstream.net

[Leon]

I have not been here much either. I was able to take a short bread last
week after finishing a couple of jobs. I just bought mahogany for a
current project and have at least three in line after that.

[JAS]

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