Can somebody help me with this (old) Drill Press

[jtpr]

This was my Dad's. It is a Craftsman King-Seeley probably around the 1950's anyway. Floor standing. It is good machine that I have used for a long time. However, it has never had the power that I think it should and I believe it is due to the belts. This has come to be a problem as I want to drill a 3 1/8th inch hole for a clock in a hunk of maple 1 1/2" thick. It just is taking forever. I don't really know how to work the belt system. There is no Sears part number on it that I can find, but it does have a 1/2hp motor.

Here are some pics:

http://jtpryan.smugmug.com/Other/Drill-Press/25079295_D2w2wb

If you have any idea what I do to minimize the belt slip, that would be great. Thank you.

-Jim

[SonomaProducts.com]

On Wednesday, August 29, 2012 2:37:50 PM UTC-7, jtpr wrote:
> This was my Dad's. It is a Craftsman King-Seeley probably around the 1950's anyway. Floor standing. It is good machine that I have used for a long time. However, it has never had the power that I think it should and I believe it is due to the belts. This has come to be a problem as I want to drill a 3 1/8th inch hole for a clock in a hunk of maple 1 1/2" thick. It just is taking forever. I don't really know how to work the belt system. There is no Sears part number on it that I can find, but it does have a 1/2hp motor. Here are some pics: http://jtpryan.smugmug.com/Other/Drill-Press/25079295_D2w2wb If you have any idea what I do to minimize the belt slip, that would be great. Thank you. -Jim

If the problem is belt slippage the motor should be mounted on a system that can slide in and out and there should be a lever that locks it in place. Sometimes there is a bolt that locks it in place and a lever actually lets you add tension before you tighten it back up. Somehow the motor needs to move away from the pully.

Alternatively you can add an idiler by adding another small pully or wheel mid belt to add tension. Could probably hack something up with some plywood a few srews and or clamps I would imagine.

[jtpr]

Well, it's hard to see in the pictures but what this has is 4 sets of pulleys. First there are 3 on top of the motor, which is affixed to the back of the drill head. Then that connects to a stack of 3 inside the head. That in turn connect to what appears to be a kind of idler stack of pulleys that in turn connect to the stack that drives the drill. Now, what happens is the belt that is around the motor pulley is the one that slips under power. Also, these belts only appear to have the length to fit on one pulley on the motor, I don't know what the other ones in the stack are for.

Do you think just getting a new belt would solve this? Maybe one of those link belts?

This also a rod in the front that moves right to left to increase and decrease speed. Is faster better when dealing with large bits like this? Or is slower better?

-Jim

[dpb]

On 8/29/2012 6:18 PM, SonomaProducts.com wrote:
> On Wednesday, August 29, 2012 2:37:50 PM UTC-7, jtpr wrote:
>> This was my Dad's. It is a Craftsman King-Seeley probably around

...

... Here are some pics:

http://jtpryan.smugmug.com/Other/Drill-Press/25079295_D2w2wb If you have
any idea what I do to minimize the belt slip, that would be great. Thank
you. -Jim

Well, the pictures don't show the full mechanism (front cut off
entirely, rear indistinct in to the background) so can't tell for sure
but clearly the two towards the front are on a pivoting arrangement but
the specific adjustment/locking isn't shown.

Certainly as shown the front belt looks to be essentially slack so I'd
guess it wouldn't pull w/ any significant torque at all as is.

Again it's too blurred to tell for sure but it looks like _maybe_ that
center is a variable speed arrangement? It certainly looks wide for a
single groove.

I'd like to see a set of much better pictures -- both in focus and that
cover the full mechanism.

Did you do a search an OWWM.ORG to see if there's a similar one there by
any chance? I've not seen that specific mechanism before...

--

[jtpr]

I know. I'm going to get some better ones in a min. But I did find a bolt on each side of the head that holds two rods that allow you to pull the motor straight back. I was looking for a hinge, but this is how you do it. This definitely helped things. However, I'm going to put more pictures in that gallery just to see if people have more info for me. Thanks.

[Kenefick]

Have you looked at owwm.com / .org? They can often be helpful with
older equipment.

[jtpr]

On Wednesday, August 29, 2012 9:46:13 PM UTC-4, dpb wrote:

OK, I updated the gallery. Man, those really were bad pics, shouldn't be operating equipment when I drink like that;+}

[jtpr]

Yes, I also posted a question there as well. Thank you.

[dpb]

On 8/29/2012 9:24 PM, jtpr wrote:
...

>> I'd like to see a set of much better pictures -- both in focus and that
>> cover the full mechanism.
>>
>> Did you do a search an OWWM.ORG to see if there's a similar one there by
>> any chance? I've not seen that specific mechanism before...

...

> OK, I updated the gallery. Man, those really were bad pics,
> shouldn't be operating equipment when I drink like that;+}

Much better...

The two rods will definitely tighten the drive belt from motor but not
the others afaict from the pictures.

I'd like to see the front handle mechanism a little more clearly; looks
to me like it rotates around the front casting to tension the adjustable
speed pulleys by straightening the linkage between the three shafts.
But, the top is shown but not the front so can't see what goes on at the
handle for locking it in position, etc.

I'd also like to see a better shot of the actual pulleys -- the depth
the belts are running makes me wonder if the belts aren't too small for
them but can't tell for sure.

Anyway, the combination of the motor position on the support rods as
you've noted and the position of that front handle on the speed-changing
mechanism are the tension adjustments.

Nice looking press--I've not done a search for it--did you try to search
owwm for the King-Seely name? I'm not familiar w/ it, either.

--

[dadiOH]

dpb wrote:

> Anyway, the combination of the motor position on the support rods as
> you've noted and the position of that front handle on the
> speed-changing mechanism are the tension adjustments.

Sure looks like it. What I'm trying to figure is how moving the linked arms
is going to work. I mean, how is it going to move the shaft upon which the
sheaves rotate (which is what it looks like it would do)? I guess the
sheaves could have an oversize hole and tensioning the rods could tilt the
shaft but that seems terminally wierd.

I do see the rod upon which the motor could slide - presumably, one on each
side - and I wonder if the quadrant/push rod things could hook up to that?
Must be...

--

dadiOH
____________________________

Winters getting colder? Tired of the rat race?
Maybe just ready for a change? Check it out...
http://www.floridaloghouse.net

[DD_BobK]

Jim-

Most of the answers have focused on the pulley arrangement /
mechanism.

I'll try a different approach... how old are the belts?
Very old belts tend to be a bit stiff. Your drill press' pulley
arrangement has relatively short center distances and the "lack of
wrap" can be adding to the slack.

At a minumim, I'd try a new belt in the location where you get the
most (all?) of the slippage.

Which belt is slipping?

You mention 1/2 hp... motor amperage?

cheers
Bob

[dpb]

On 8/30/2012 10:02 AM, dadiOH wrote:
> dpb wrote:
>
>> Anyway, the combination of the motor position on the support rods as
>> you've noted and the position of that front handle on the
>> speed-changing mechanism are the tension adjustments.
>
> Sure looks like it. What I'm trying to figure is how moving the linked arms
> is going to work. I mean, how is it going to move the shaft upon which the
> sheaves rotate (which is what it looks like it would do)? I guess the
> sheaves could have an oversize hole and tensioning the rods could tilt the
> shaft but that seems terminally wierd.
>
> I do see the rod upon which the motor could slide - presumably, one on each
> side - and I wonder if the quadrant/push rod things could hook up to that?
> Must be...

Not enough detail in the right angles/positions to be able to tell
precisely how the intermediate spindles are supported but I'm certain
they move laterally to allow to change belt positions for speed
changing. Somewhere I suspect there are some other locking levers/set
screws/whatevers...

As noted I've not seen this precise mechanism before--it's interesting
certainly and I'd think a diligent search would probably come up w/ it
on owwm or even maybe an old patent drawing. But, I don't have the time
at the moment to try to do so now.

--

[dpb]

On 8/29/2012 9:24 PM, jtpr wrote:
...

>> Did you do a search an OWWM.ORG to see if there's a similar one there by
>> any chance? I've not seen that specific mechanism before...

...

Well, I did do a quickie--as I thought _might_ be possible, the large
diameter on the intermediate shafts and the adjusting mechanism is a
variable-speed drive system...

<http://vintagemachinery.org/photoindex/detail.aspx?id=9538>

So, the drive belt is tightened by the mechanism as you described but
the others are basically based on length of the belt itself and the
front lever arm moves them in/out on the pulleys to provide a variable
speed feature.

As the owner in the link says, that leaves it w/ a limited amount of
torque based on the spring load on the intermediate pulleys. Those two
can't be tightened per a conventional belt.

Another one w/ the speed plate on the variable speed...

<http://vintagemachinery.org/photoindex/detail.aspx?id=12727>
--

[jtpr]

Yeah, I think I need to get new belts, just have to figure out where to get them. They each have an "S" on them followed by a 3 digit number.

Also, I posted much better pics in that same gallary.

-Jim

[Larry Jaques]

On Thu, 30 Aug 2012 17:00:05 -0700 (PDT), jtpr <jtp...@gmail.com>
wrote:

Consider linkbelts.

>Also, I posted much better pics in that same gallary.

That's good. Those first shots were horrible (phone shots, huh?)

--
I have the consolation of having added nothing to my private fortune during
my public service, and of retiring with hands clean as they are empty.
-- Thomas Jefferson, letter to Count Diodati, 1807

Too bad -none- of the current CONgresscritters are willing to do that. -LJ

[jtpr]

On Wednesday, August 29, 2012 5:37:50 PM UTC-4, jtpr wrote:

Yes, it was impulsive at the time. Usually the phone does better, oh well. Anyway, there are 3 belts, each has a label on it: SR 170, SR 200, and SR 210. now I just need to find out where to find them.

-Jim

[jtpr]

On Wednesday, August 29, 2012 5:37:50 PM UTC-4, jtpr wrote:

This is the exact system with the belts I need:

http://vintagemachinery.org/pubs/222/3034.pdf

-Jim

[dpb]

On 8/31/2012 7:33 AM, jtpr wrote:
...

> This is the exact system with the belts I need:
>
> http://vintagemachinery.org/pubs/222/3034.pdf

Good find...I presume you saw the picture links I posted earlier...

Are you sure you really need new belts? They don't look worn in the
pictures; while old unless are glazed surfaces or obviously worn I'm
guessing they're not going to make much difference.

Since the press is pretty old and it mentions these are packed bearings,
have you checked all them for being well-packed w/ non-dried-out grease
and that the speed adjusting pulleys operate, etc., etc., etc., ... ?
What about the drill spindle bearings too?

On the belts themselves, I'm guessing the numbers are lengths in tenths
of inches -- Measure the width and depth; there are standard A, B, C,
... cross sections for v-belts. A is 1/2", B = 21/32", etc. Automotive
belts use a NL nomenclature where N is 3,4,5,... and is in eighths of
inches. So a 4L is equivalent cross section to a standard industrial A.

If you think you really do need to replace them go to the best-stocked
NAPA or other automotive parts place you have and match them. They'll
have a belt-measuring device to make it simpler.

--

[CW]

"dpb" wrote in message news:k1qe3a$rig$1...@speranza.aioe.org...

If you think you really do need to replace them go to the best-stocked
NAPA or other automotive parts place you have and match them. They'll
have a belt-measuring device to make it simpler.

=========================================================================
Better yet, a farm supply.

--

[dpb]

Not so likely the short lengths OP needs ime...on hand, anyway.
Undoubtedly they can get/match anything made but the auto supply tends
to do better for smaller stuff owing to all the configurations. Altho
w/ the advent of the serpentine perhaps not as much as in days of yore.
(am a farmer)

--

[dpb]

On 8/31/2012 4:20 PM, dpb wrote:
...

> Not so likely the short lengths OP needs ime...on hand, anyway.
> Undoubtedly they can get/match anything made but the auto supply tends
> to do better for smaller stuff owing to all the configurations. Altho w/
> the advent of the serpentine perhaps not as much as in days of yore. (am
> a farmer)

That's not to say don't try, of course--what is common in one location
ain't necessarily the same somewhere else. Probably greatly depends
also on the type of farming in an area--this is large grain production
country where stuff is on very large scale and not much if any small
producers or hobby farms that tend to have utility-sized stuff...

--

[Pete S]

I think the drill press is going 'way too fast for a 3 1/8" drill. Are you
using a hole saw or a forstner bit or what?

That drill press, if it's like mine, has a slowest speed of about 550 rpm.
You should be down to about 150 rpms or so, I'd say.
I'll bet that your drill bit has dulled/overheated from the high speed.

I slowed mine down by adding a separate motor beside the main one. My main
motor has a double ended shaft, so I put a 6" pulley on the lower end and
used a 1 1/2" pulley on the separate motor. I simply add the lower belt when
I need a selection of lower speeds for work such as yours.

If the problem IS slippage, on my drill press, you simply adjust the motor
farther away from the back of the drill press. Mine is a 1960 Sears floor
model.

Pete Stanaitis
---------------

[CW]

"dpb" wrote in message news:k1r9q8$7ij$1...@speranza.aioe.org...

==============================================================================
I'm sure it depends on the place but the one that I used to go to even came
up with a belt for a 1948 Singer sewing machine.
--

[CW]

"dpb" wrote in message news:k1rb5a$ac1$1...@speranza.aioe.org...

====================================================================
Yes, you're right, it would be quite location specific. The place that I was
talking about was in a place that had many small orchards hence small
machinery.

--

[dpb]

On 8/31/2012 8:39 PM, CW wrote:
> "dpb" wrote in message news:k1r9q8$7ij$1...@speranza.aioe.org...
> On 8/31/2012 11:41 AM, CW wrote:
>> "dpb" wrote in message news:k1qe3a$rig$1...@speranza.aioe.org...

>> ...go to the best-stocked NAPA ... and match them. ...

>> Better yet, a farm supply.
>
> Not so likely the short lengths OP needs ime...on hand, anyway.

...

> I'm sure it depends on the place but the one that I used to go to even
> came up with a belt for a 1948 Singer sewing machine.

There's a place like that here, too, but it ain't one of the farm supply
places...

--

[Jack]

On 8/29/2012 7:18 PM, SonomaProducts.com wrote:

> On Wednesday, August 29, 2012 2:37:50 PM UTC-7, jtpr wrote:
>> This was my Dad's. It is a Craftsman King-Seeley probably around the 1950's anyway.
Floor standing. It is good machine that I have used for a long time.
However, it has never
had the power that I think it should and I believe it is due to the belts.

I have King Seeley from the same era. Model Number 103.23140.

Here is a pic of mine:
http://jbstein.com/Flick/DrillPress.jpg

Yours is slightly different at the top, looks to be a bit newer model,
Mine only has two pulleys, not four and you change speeds by moving the
belt manually. Yours looks exactly the same if you removed the two
middle pulleys and just had a belt from the spindle pulley to the motor
pulley.

This has come to be a problem as I want to drill a 3 1/8th inch hole for
a clock in a hunk
of maple 1 1/2" thick. It just is taking forever.

What are you cutting the hole with? Is the tool sharp?

I don't really know how to work the belt system. There is no Sears part
number on it that I can find, but it does have a 1/2hp motor.

Mine also has a 1/2 hp motor, and I never had a problem with power, and
never had the belt slip. My belt is loose enough that I can change
pulley positions w/o loosening anything. The belt is tightened by
loosening the two bolts on the side that hold the motor mount. I rarely
to never change speeds. A fly cutter is about the only time and it's
rather easy, takes about 10 seconds or less.

I have cut 6" holes with a fly cutter, not a problem. Yours seems to
have a much more complex pulley system, and could be that is where your
problems are coming from, assuming a sharp tool and no motor problems.

I do have the operating instructions and parts list for my model, but it
doesn't show the complex pulley system yours has added on to it. I would
think there are ways to adjust tension for no slip, and 1/2 hp is plenty
for this DP.

Here are some pics:
http://jtpryan.smugmug.com/Other/Drill-Press/25079295_D2w2wb If you have
any idea what I do to
minimize the belt slip, that would be great. Thank you. -Jim

>
> If the problem is belt slippage the motor should be mounted on a system that can slide in and out and there should be a lever that locks it in place. Sometimes there is a bolt that locks it in place and a lever actually lets you add tension before you tighten it back up. Somehow the motor needs to move away from the pully.
>
> Alternatively you can add an idiler by adding another small pully or wheel mid belt to add tension. Could probably hack something up with some plywood a few srews and or clamps I would imagine.
>

--
Jack
Add Life to your Days not Days to your Life.
http://jbstein.com

[DanG]

Sure you could, but you would do away with the variable speed pulleys
that make this a great drill press.

--


___________________________________

Keep the whole world singing . . .
Dan G
remove the seven

[jtpr]

OK, the belts are labled, SR 170, SR 200, and SR 210. After measuring I figured it out:

SR = Sears and Robuck
170 = 17"
200 = 20"
210 = 21"

Duh.

Anyway I found all the belts at http://www.vbeltsupply.com/

For $12 including shipping I ordered them, we'll see what happens when they arrive.

I am using a brand new Forstner bit to answer a previous question. I had asked about speed in terms of which is better for a bit this large, faster or slower, it sounds like slower from the comments.

-Jim

[Joe >]

Jim--
My Craftsman DP looks kinda-sorta like yours.
I have an unlocking lever that comes out about the
same place as what looks like the end of a bolt in
your pictue #4 (underneath the pulley closest to
the motor). Is there a lever on the Left side?
I'm guessing that's the speed selector knob on the
front (??) attached to the linkage and I'm guessing
that you've fiddled with it to make sure it's fully
engaged and not between positions?
And last - there's not a diagram on the inside of
the lid is there?