Craftsman tablesaw (old)

[DJayhawk]

I have old Craftsman 1 hp tablesaw that is just dogging out on me when I'm ripping 3/4" plywood.

What can I do to get this old dog performing better? Does the blade have that much of a factor or could there be other issues?

The model is 113.29992 it might be from the late 60's. the blade on there now is a new Black and Decker Pirranah.

Thanks for any advice

[Lew Hodgett]

-------------------------------------------------------------------------
A 1 HP motor is a little light for cutting ply.

If you are operating at 120V, re-wire for 240V operation.

It will make a major difference.

While not inexpensive, a 1-1/2 HP motor will also make a big
difference.

Not familiar with the blade, but I never found Black and Decker blades
to be anything but low initial cost.

I would look at Freud for a blade.

Have fun.

Lew

[Leon]

I basically had the same saw. I put a good quality "REGULAR kerf blade
on it and it made all the difference in the world. Keep in mind that
you need to have your saw tuned properly. Read that as every thing as
close to perfect alignment as possible.

You can put at thin kerf blade on it to cut faster but over all not better.

[DJayhawk]

I know I need to get a better quality blade and plan on doing that soon. I thought about re-wiring it for 220 but wasn't confident it would make a big enough difference.

Where should I look for a 1.5 hp motor? Sears?

[Puckdropper at dot]

DJayhawk <djay...@gmail.com> wrote in
news:b2c0b7c8-3bf6-4847...@googlegroups.com:

A good blade will make a big difference. Check to make sure the fence is
parallel to the blade (it helps if it's parallel to the miter slot, but if
you're not using the gauge it doesn't make too much difference.)

Puckdropper
--
Make it to fit, don't make it fit.

[Keith Nuttle]

I have a saw from the same period. It is a Sears 10" Table Saw 113
2990301 with a 1hp motor. I inherited the saw and replaced the blade my
father in law had with a 10" 60 tooth Carbide blade (As I remember it
was $50 or $60 about 14 years ago from Sears .)

The better blade made a world of difference. I routinely rip 1 X 4's
with it and have no problem.

There is one thing you can do to improve performance. Over the years
sawdust and wood chips accumulate in the motor itself. Mine finally
stopped when a wood chip got into the contacts. Before spending any
significant money (a 1.5 hp motor would be a couple of hindered) I would
disassemble the motor and clean out all of the creases.

First a word for the bureaucrats:
USE GOOD PRACTICES WHEN WORKING WITH THINGS ELECTRICAL, BE CAREFUL NOT
TO BREAK WIRES OR TEAR ANY INSTALLATION CAREFULLY REASSEMBLE ANY PART
THAT COMES OUT HAS TO GO BACK IN, AND NOT ADDITIONAL PARTS AND MATERIAL
SHOULD BE ADDED
Now back to our show.

If it as mine, there are three? screws that connect the right end of the
case to the left end. Remove the screws and the motor comes into three
parts. clean each and clean and reoil the bushings. pull the rotor out
of the center part an clean the surface and check of wear. Once it is
back together, use a vacuum to periodically clean the openings in the
motor and add oil to the oil ports at each end of the motor to keep the
bushing oiled.

I do agree with what was previously posted that for ripping 3/4 plywood
I would look at a bigger motor. However if this is a one shot thing
just feed it slowly.

My saw has been from Arizona to North Carolina, then to Indiana and
back. So if it was originally aligned correctly it should still be OK
but I would check everything just in case.

[DJayhawk]

Thanks Keith! I'll look into cleaning up the motor before upgrading it. How much of a factor does the belt have in performance? The belt doesn't look bad at all but the saw has been in grandpas basement shop for over 10 years unused.

[Lew Hodgett]

"DJayhawk" wrote:

>I know I need to get a better quality blade and plan on doing that
>soon. I thought about re-wiring it for 220 but wasn't confident it
>would make a big enough difference.

------------------------------------------------------
It will make a big difference, especially with a better blade.
------------------------------------------------------

> Where should I look for a 1.5 hp motor? Sears?

--------------------------------------------------
WW Grainger, McMaster-Carr?

Check Amazon also. Not sure if the sell motors.

Lew

[-MIKE-]

I think 1hp motor is plenty for plywood, assuming it's still in good
shape. Plywood is stable and doesn't bind the blade, has no knots, is
usually made mostly of soft woods. No problem with a sharp blade.

Ever try to use a dull utility knife vs. a new one. Night and day,
right? Even when putting much more "horse power" behind the blade, it
cuts poorly and wears you out.

I did some really nice work with a lousy table saw and a $100 blade.
Like others have said, it has to be set-up properly. No blade will cut
cleanly and not bog down if the fence is pinching the stock behind the
blade.

Freud has some great blades for well under $75. And yes, full kerf will
yield better results, but may slow down your feed rate on a 1hp motor.
It's worth it, imo.


--

-MIKE-

"Playing is not something I do at night, it's my function in life"
--Elvin Jones (1927-2004)
--
http://mikedrums.com
mi...@mikedrumsDOT.com
---remove "DOT" ^^^^ to reply

[knuttle]

Harbor Freight has them also.

[Keith Nuttle]

With your cast iron top where the blade bushing assembly is bolted to
that top, from my experience it is easier to use the miter slot as a
reference for both the blade and the fence. Fence can move but it is
difficult to move the miter slot, especially in your saw where it is a
grove in the cast iron table. So if the blade is set parallel to the
slot it is going to take a lot to change alignment.

Using the slot for reference makes check the fence easy. Using your
adjustable square, On one end, set the square against the slot and
adjust the ruler so it is against the fence. Lay the square in the same
position at the other end, and adjust the fence until both ends are both
the same distance from the slot.

[Doug Winterburn]

On 11/15/2012 09:14 PM, DJayhawk wrote:
> I know I need to get a better quality blade and plan on doing that soon. I thought about re-wiring it for 220 but wasn't confident it would make a big enough difference.
>
> Where should I look for a 1.5 hp motor? Sears?
>

http://www.grizzly.com/catalog/2012/Main/260


--
"Socialism is a philosophy of failure,the creed of ignorance, and the
gospel of envy, its inherent virtue is the equal sharing of misery"
-Winston Churchill

[Lew Hodgett]

"Lew Hodgett" wrote:
==================================================

===============================================
Forgot to mention how important having a large enough power
cable is for a saw.

Your existing 1HP motor will draw from 12-15 amps @ 120 volts.

To minimize line losses, I'd use a 10-2/ground cable.

If you operate @ 240V, motor will operate @ 6-8 amps which means
you could use 12-2/ground, but I would still use 10-2/ground cable.


You can buy a molded cordset (15-25 Ft) from a supply house,
cut off the receptacle and wire it into saw.

It's the lowest cost way to get a heavy duty power cable.
Have fun

Lew

[Leon]

On 11/15/2012 10:50 PM, DJayhawk wrote:
> Thanks Keith! I'll look into cleaning up the motor before upgrading it. How much of a factor does the belt have in performance? The belt doesn't look bad at all but the saw has been in grandpas basement shop for over 10 years unused.
>

A better belt will help the saw run smoother but not necessarily
increase cutting capacity/speed. FWIW I never changed mine.

[Zz Yzx]

On Thu, 15 Nov 2012 20:50:36 -0800 (PST), DJayhawk
<djay...@gmail.com> wrote:

>Thanks Keith! I'll look into cleaning up the motor before upgrading it. How much of a factor does the belt have in performance? The belt doesn't look bad at all but the saw has been in grandpas basement shop for over 10 years unused.

I have the same or similar saw, c. 1983. With factory belts and
pulleys, it wouldn't pass the nickle test with the nickle laying flat.

I installed new pulleys and link-blets, and ever since it'll pass the
test easily.

After-market belts and pulleys make a big difference for accuracy and
cut quality, but won't have much effect on power.

[dpb]

On 11/15/2012 10:14 PM, DJayhawk wrote:
> I know I need to get a better quality blade and plan on doing that
> soon. I thought about re-wiring it for 220 but wasn't confident it
> wouldmake a big enough difference.

If as you say the blade is new even tho the B&D aren't the best you can
buy, it's not likely the major problem as far as that goes. What's more
important is # teeth, grind, hook angle and whether it's even close to
being in line. The _style_ of the blade for the purpose is important;
the brand, not so much.

Rewiring won't make any real difference unless your wiring is _severely_
undersized but if 240V is available might as well as it's a nearly
trivial operation. If you do upgrade the motor to larger size then
you'll likely need to, anyway for an existing circuit or you'll start
tripping it.

> Where should I look for a 1.5 hp motor? Sears?

Local ads, criags list kind of places, the local radio station call-in
trade show if got one, call the electric motor repair shops for used...

On motors I'd avoid the HF and the ilk super-cheapies unless there's a
walkin store in town and there's a swap-out guarantee for more than just
the 30 days or they do happen to have some heavier-duty
motors...generally my experience has been that their motors let the
smoke out pretty quickly.

--

[Larry Blanchard]

On Thu, 15 Nov 2012 19:26:11 -0800, Lew Hodgett wrote:

> While not inexpensive, a 1-1/2 HP motor will also make a big difference.

I'm not sure that's true. I've got a 1948 Delta with what I think is the
original motor. It says 1 HP but is so large and heavy I can't lift it.
I suspect the rating is true HP, not "peak".

An acquaintance who rebuilds motor for a living warned me to never get
rid of that motor. He said regardless of HP it had twice as much torque
as a modern motor.

It does bog down a bit on 8/4 hard maple, but most contractor style saws
would.

If the OP's saw has a similar motor, he might find an upgrade was a
downgrade. It doesn't sound like that's the case, but I just wanted to
point out that HP ratings don't tell the whole story.

If his motor is more of the modern style, comparing amperage might be
more informative.

--
When fascism comes to America, it will be wrapped in the flag and
carrying a cross.

[Lew Hodgett]

"Lew Hodgett" wrote:

>> While not inexpensive, a 1-1/2 HP motor will also make a big
>> difference.

------------------------------------------------------------------

"Larry Blanchard" wrote:


> I'm not sure that's true. I've got a 1948 Delta with what I think
> is the
> original motor. It says 1 HP but is so large and heavy I can't lift
> it.
> I suspect the rating is true HP, not "peak".
>
> An acquaintance who rebuilds motor for a living warned me to never
> get
> rid of that motor. He said regardless of HP it had twice as much
> torque
> as a modern motor.
>
> It does bog down a bit on 8/4 hard maple, but most contractor style
> saws
> would.
>
> If the OP's saw has a similar motor, he might find an upgrade was a
> downgrade. It doesn't sound like that's the case, but I just wanted
> to
> point out that HP ratings don't tell the whole story.
>
> If his motor is more of the modern style, comparing amperage might
> be
> more informative.

---------------------------------------------------------------
The reason older motors have so much iron in them has to do with the
insulating varnish on the copper windings.

Old time varnishes just could not handle the temperatures that today's
varnishes
are designed to handle.

As a result, larger wire sizes were required for the windings in order
to be able
handle the current required to develop rated the HP of the design.

The number of turns remain constant between yesterday's and today's
motors
for the rated HP of the design.

Larger wire size dictates bigger slots in the stator to hanle the
wire bundle,
which dictates a larger diameter stator, which dictates larger
housings thus a larger,
heavier motor.

Lew

[whit3rd]

On Thursday, November 15, 2012 6:31:00 PM UTC-8, DJayhawk wrote:
> I have old Craftsman 1 hp tablesaw that is just dogging out on me when I'm ripping 3/4" plywood.

Either the alignment of the saw is bad (and the plywood is somehow binding
in the cut - look for scorchmarks) or the blade is very dirty/dull, or
your electrical wiring is too lightweight.

One horsepower should be enough. More than enough.

Ripping a long strip of plywood, it matters a LOT that you and
your helpers feed the work straight, and keep it flat, like
with a very large outfeed and/or infeed table. Usually
the long rip on 8-foot sheets is done with a guide and
Skilsaw, it's just easier that way.

[Mike M]

On Thu, 15 Nov 2012 20:50:36 -0800 (PST), DJayhawk
<djay...@gmail.com> wrote:

>Thanks Keith! I'll look into cleaning up the motor before upgrading it. How much of a factor does the belt have in performance? The belt doesn't look bad at all but the saw has been in grandpas basement shop for over 10 years unused.

When your doing your tune up make sure everything is turning freely
and desn't have too much run out.

Mike M

[DJayhawk]

The blade is true and 90, but the rear part of the fence appears to run in toward the blade. That has to be where the binding is coming from.

I spent some time aligning my fence and made a couple cuts feeding really slow. It's still not cutting how I hoped it would. It maybe be that I do need to upgrade the blade.

Thanks for all the suggestions. What blade should I get?

[Mike M]

When I had my craftsman I had a systematic on it. I know some people
here like the Frued. I had too measure front and back with the
craftsman fence to be sure it set square.

Mike M

[Leon]

While this might be hard to swallow, I recommend something like a
Forrest WWII regular kerf, 40 teeth.

Yes it is expensive, $100 plus a little but it will stay sharp for a
very very long time and can be resharpened dozens of times. AND if you
upgrade your saw it will most likely be transferable. ;~)

[Larry Blanchard]

On Fri, 16 Nov 2012 11:15:54 -0800, Lew Hodgett wrote:

> The reason
> older motors have so much iron in them has to do with the insulating
> varnish on the copper windings.
>
> Old time varnishes just could not handle the temperatures that today's
> varnishes
> are designed to handle.
>

> As a result, larger wire sizes were required for the windings ...

Thanks Lew, that's useful information. I wonder when the use of "peak"
horsepower became common?

[Lew Hodgett]

"Larry Blanchard" wrote:

> Thanks Lew, that's useful information. I wonder when the use of
> "peak"
> horsepower became common?

----------------------------------------------------
"Peak" HP is a marketing gimmick that ONLY applies to some specific
applications such as vacuum cleaners.

NEMA motors are truly specified according to design (Design B, Design
C, Design D),
which defines the torque vs: RPM of the motor and true output HP for
the real world.


Lew

[-MIKE-]

There's a place near me that has a boatload of Freud - LM72R010X that
they are unloading for $25 each. You could pay shipping and still have
it for 1/2 of what other places are selling it. It's a heavy duty full
kerf blade.

http://www.generalindustrial.com/
(800) 371-2220

[Keith Nuttle]

My Sears motor has a part number of 113.12170. It is 115 volts 60
cycles and runs at 3450 rpms. It is a capacitor start type motor and
requires a 20 amp circuit.

If you are luck it will run on 15 amps, but will run slow.

I have one 20 amp circuit in the garage of my 4 year old home and that
is in the ceiling. I want to put several more 20 amp circuits into the
garage but then we got obamainated. On my last house I had to add 20
amp circuits to the garage and that house was 40 years old.

OP make sure you are using the saw on the proper circuit.

[knuttle]

When you say true, does that mean the to the slot/(table top or what
ever you are using as a reference) and blade are absolutely parallel? or
is the blade parallel to the fence?

One thing I just thought of if the saw has been use a lot, how are the
bearings on the blade spindle. If they are worn that could cause
binding and slow the saw down.

You asked about the belt, if it is going bad and causing problems I
would think that those problems were that it is about to break not slow
the saw down.

If the belt is to tight that could cause the bearing to bind on both the
blade an in the motor causing the saw to run slow.

We have been talking about alignment, is the motor aligned with the
pulley on the saw blade.

The fact that the blade is 90 degrees to the table should have nothing
to do with binding.

[Mike Marlow]

Keith Nuttle wrote:
>
> My Sears motor has a part number of 113.12170. It is 115 volts 60
> cycles and runs at 3450 rpms. It is a capacitor start type motor and
> requires a 20 amp circuit.
>
> If you are luck it will run on 15 amps, but will run slow.
>

Well - not really Keith. There may be other factors that could cause this,
but all things being equal, the rating of the circuit has nothing to do with
the speed the motor runs at - unless you exceed the rating of the breaker
and it trips... at which point the speed of the motor quickly becomes zero.
As long as the inrush current does not exceed the rating of the branch
circuit at startup, it is most likely that the motor will run under the
rating under no load. It would then run at the same speed on a 15A circuit
as it does on a 20A circuit.

You are correct that there are valid reasons for wiring for a higher branch
circuit rating, but it's not about run speed.

--

-Mike-
mmarlo...@windstream.net

[Zz Yzx]

>While this might be hard to swallow, I recommend something like a
>Forrest WWII regular kerf, 40 teeth.

I'll vouch for that blade

[DJayhawk]

What do you guys think about blade stabilizers? There were on the saw when I started using it. Since I put the B&D blade on I reinstalled the stanilizers too. Do I need them? Do they have any effect on performance?

[Zz Yzx]

On Sat, 17 Nov 2012 08:41:07 -0800 (PST), DJayhawk
<djay...@gmail.com> wrote:

>What do you guys think about blade stabilizers? There were on the saw when I started using it. Since I put the B&D blade on I reinstalled the stanilizers too. Do I need them? Do they have any effect on performance?

The threads on my arbor do not extend far enough out to allow me to
use a stabilizer on the arbor side of the blade. I use one on the
other side.

Definitely use them if you can, especially with a thin-kerf blade.

[Larry Blanchard]

On Fri, 16 Nov 2012 19:37:30 -0800, Lew Hodgett wrote:

>> Thanks Lew, that's useful information. I wonder when the use of "peak"
>> horsepower became common?
> ---------------------------------------------------- "Peak" HP is a
> marketing gimmick that ONLY applies to some specific applications such
> as vacuum cleaners.

That may be all it *applies* to, but it's used on just about everything.
Looked at router horsepower claims lately? Or any power tool from Sears?

I notice that Lowes is advertising a couple of Steel City "1.5HP" table
saws on their website. When you check the specs, the amps are shown as
"0.0". Guess that's one way of obfuscating the facts :-).

On a more hopeful note, I see a lot of products are now just stating amps
- no horsepower rating.

[Larry Blanchard]

They're a definite help on thin kerf blades. Opinions differ on their
utility of a full kerf blade, but they can't hurt. One thing I do is
mark mine so I always install them in the same position relative to each
other. That might be overkill, but then again it can't hurt.

[-MIKE-]

I've used them on thin kerf blade and they do help.
However, it's all irrelevant when your saw isn't properly set-up.
The thin kerf blade with stabilizers will still flex some when the stock
is binding, putting pressure against the side of the blade.

[dpb]

On 11/16/2012 1:15 PM, Lew Hodgett wrote:
> "Lew Hodgett" wrote:
...

> The reason older motors have so much iron in them has to do with the
> insulating varnish on the copper windings.
>
> Old time varnishes just could not handle the temperatures that today's
> varnishes are designed to handle.
>
> As a result, larger wire sizes were required for the windings in order
> to be able handle the current required to develop rated the HP of the design.
>
> The number of turns remain constant between yesterday's and today's
> motors for the rated HP of the design.
>
> Larger wire size dictates bigger slots in the stator to hanle the
> wire bundle, which dictates a larger diameter stator, which dictates larger
> housings thus a larger, heavier motor.

...

That's a part of the story; there's much more going on besides-- :)

The difference between the magnetic steels used/available, air gap,
etc., etc., all effect the overall efficiency and hence the power output
per unit input is variable w/ generally older motors not being as efficient.

I-sqR losses may go down w/ the larger diameter if used, but that's
counteracted by longer length so isn't as large a win as just the area
factor alone as well as changing the field saturation...

All in all, it's tough to make generalizations other than often the
advantage in the older motors is that cost constraints weren't nearly as
big a deal then so they had motors which rated better than those on more
recent equipment where price point became so much a competitive issue.

The torque effect noted above is a valid one on the older larger
physical rotor designs -- I have a WWII era hybrid Walker-Turner
Rockwell 3/4" spindle shaper w/ the original motor that is physically as
large as more recent 5 hp motors. It's mass is helpful for tough jobs
and noticeable in comparison w/ the PM Model 27 of roughly mid-80s
vintage and same (3) hp rating. I'd have to go to the shop to look up
comparative LRA and FLA but I'm sure the old Rockwell is fair much
higher draw than the newer PM.

--

[Mike M]

On Sat, 17 Nov 2012 08:41:07 -0800 (PST), DJayhawk
<djay...@gmail.com> wrote:

>What do you guys think about blade stabilizers? There were on the saw when I started using it. Since I put the B&D blade on I reinstalled the stanilizers too. Do I need them? Do they have any effect on performance?

When I had my Craftsman saw I had some Craftsman stabilizers on it and
they made it worse, but they likely were'nt true and created
distortion in the thin kerf blade.

Mike M

[Leon]

On 11/17/2012 10:41 AM, DJayhawk wrote:
> What do you guys think about blade stabilizers? There were on the saw when I started using it. Since I put the B&D blade on I reinstalled the stanilizers too. Do I need them? Do they have any effect on performance?
>

Blade stabilizers are a remedy for a blade with inherent deficiencies,
namely thin kerf blades. Put stabilizer money towards a good regular
kerf blade.

[Keith Nuttle]

On 11/15/2012 9:31 PM, DJayhawk wrote:
> I have old Craftsman 1 hp tablesaw that is just dogging out on me when I'm ripping 3/4" plywood.
>

> What can I do to get this old dog performing better? Does the blade have that much of a factor or could there be other issues?
>
> The model is 113.29992 it might be from the late 60's. the blade on there now is a new Black and Decker Pirranah.
>
> Thanks for any advice
>
Yesterday I was ripping a piece of 1X2, and realize there is something
I do that does effect performance,

Most of the time I want very finished cuts for the type of work I am
doing. To decrease the angle the teeth that the are hitting the face of
the board, I adjust the height of the blade so it is about a half to
three quarter inch above the board. This lower angle adds cutting teeth
to the cutting length. ie as you lower the blade from full height, the
angle of the blade in the wood goes from nearly vertical
to nearly horizontal.

However with hard woods the greater cut length also adds to the load on
the saw. If you are using a low blade height you can reduce the load by
raising the blade to reduce the cut length in the wood.