Making a living in woodworking
Tea Vee
home, and if so...what are ya doin?
Doug Stowe
(Tea Vee) wrote:
> Is anybody out there making a living doing woodworking out of their
> home, and if so...what are ya doin?
I have been a self-employed woodworker, working at home since 1976. I
have a six second commute in the morning to get to the office. Nine
seconds to get to the shop. The draw back is that I never really get very
far from work. On weekends my wife wants me to make more furniture for
the house.
I live in a very small town where the quality of life is good, but the
market for fine work is small. So, I have survived by being flexible. I
do display cabinets for the tourist shops downtown, furniture for the few
people around here who have the tastes and resources to pay for quality
work, and boxes which I started doing to keep busy between commissions.
I sell my boxes through about thirty galleries, through my website, and
two or three shows each year.
When I started out, it seemed to me that I faced a choice between making a
good living or having a good life. I chose the good life. I don't have a
lot of money left at the end of the month to waste at Walmart, but I like
what I do. It is meaningful to me. Self-employment has its
uncertainties, and sometimes it seems I'm running on either faith or the
very last fumes in the tank. But somehow, things work out to keep me
going. I am very grateful.
--
"Creating Beautiful Boxes With Inlay Techniques"
Fine furnishings from American Hardwoods since 1976
visit http://www.DougStowe.com
Minorite
:-> it is hard working for your self, though. everything you said is true.
one question, how do you avoid "pricing scared" when it get slow. the work
always shows up when its needed, but there are times when i was tempted to bid
low just to have the work. any good thoughts on how to get passed this point?
anyone?
bob
Doug Stowe
mino...@aol.com (Minorite) wrote:
I know this is rec.woodworking and not the best place for so called "pros"
to be all bent over showing their underware. Talking about business is a
bit like standing on stage showing the "full monte".
"Pricing scared" is a new term to me, but not a new concept. I've done
it. Cutting corners and doing cheap work may be an even greater danger.
You don't know what piece out in the world will sell your next one. The
hard thing is continuing to do your best work even when your only customer
doesn't understand it or appreciate it and is unwilling to pay for it.
But unless you do it anyway, how will you attract the attention of those
able to appreciate it and willing to pay for it and how will you develop
the skills needed to keep growing and expanding the horizons of your
work? Some of my work has been "priced scared". I'm not complaining.
This has a lot to do with my CHOICE of living in a limited marketing area
where scenic beauty and a rich community of friends more than compensates
for lower income.
Having a product line in addition to doing custom work is a help to me.
Knowing that the product can provide x dollars per hour helps establish a
baseline of value, giving a bit more sense of security about walking away
from the dubious deal.
It is a real challenge for a craftsman in pricing his/her work to not
short change his/herself and family. I don't have any magic formula. It
is still an every day challenge for me. With manufactured goods falling in
price, and with the general American public lacking an understanding of
why "hand crafted" work has meaning and value, the craftsman may not only
have to produce the work, but also be an educator, informing potential
clients of the techniques involved and the underlying values involved in
the work.
I appreciated Spokeshave pointing out to the furniture salesman that, "No,
despite the deception, those dovetails are not hand-cut!" As woodworkers,
we all have a part to play in shaping values. And if the values are not
understood, the fair and reasonable price won't be paid for our work.
Sorry, no clear answers, but, Best wishes, Doug
MKepke
dst...@cswnet.com (Doug Stowe) wrote:
<snip>
>It is a real challenge for a craftsman in pricing his/her work to not
>short change his/herself and family. I don't have any magic formula. It
>is still an every day challenge for me. With manufactured goods falling in
>price, and with the general American public lacking an understanding of
>why "hand crafted" work has meaning and value, the craftsman may not only
>have to produce the work, but also be an educator, informing potential
>clients of the techniques involved and the underlying values involved in
>the work.
At the risk of getting heavily flamed, why does truely hand-crafted work
"have meaning and value" ? Meaning to who ? Value to who ?
The craftsperson certainly, but why _should_ the public at large care ?
Are you suggesting that somehow hand-made goods are more legitimate than
mass-produced goods ?
-MK
--
-M.Kepke
My opinions, etc.
To send email, replace nojunk with mkepke and nortel respectively.
Doug Stowe
noj...@nojunk.com (MKepke) wrote:
> At the risk of getting heavily flamed, why does truely hand-crafted work
> "have meaning and value" ? Meaning to who ? Value to who ?
>
> The craftsperson certainly, but why _should_ the public at large care ?
>
> Are you suggesting that somehow hand-made goods are more legitimate than
> mass-produced goods ?
>
> -MK
>
> --
> -M.Kepke
> My opinions, etc.
You've asked a very good question. I for one, won't flame you for it. Of
course the meaning and value with regards the personal craftsman can be
easily understood by any member of the news group. So, why should anyone
else give a sh.t? Maybe because we live in a throwaway age in which most
manufactured goods convey little sense of lasting satisfaction. For me,
meaning and value have to do with relationship connecting us as human
beings with each other and with the natural world. The things I own which
give deeper meaning in my life are the those that remind me of the caring
and concern of others. Machines don't invest caring and concern into
their product. People do. Is that enough reason for people to buy the
work of individual craftsmen? It is for some.
Robin J. Maxwell
>
> At the risk of getting heavily flamed, why does truely hand-crafted work
> "have meaning and value" ?
For the same reason that the advent of photography did not spell the end
of painting and synthesizers did not kill musical instrument production.
> Meaning to who ? Value to who ?
To some but not others.
>
> The craftsperson certainly, but why _should_ the public at large care ?
Good question.
> Are you suggesting that somehow hand-made goods are more legitimate than
> mass-produced goods ?
We have been programmed by marketing to believe that mass-produced,
machined perfection is the ultimate. Much to the chagrin of large corps
however, a desire for a more individualistic/human qualities as well as
variety persists. In a word, "custom". An example of this can be
found in beer production where products from microbreweries became very
popular. The response from large corps was to produce products which
mimiced the variety and styles offered by the smaller companies.
Automobiles are another where (practically) everyone wants a custom
car. Auto makers trade on this with tags like "special", "limited
edition", etc. Some of this may be more of an American trait, but since
I live in an area with a large immigrant population, I would have to
conclude that it is something in the water to account for it.
Some products are acceptable when mass produced. It is convenient to
have paper of a common size, and nuts, bolts and screws that are
interchangeable. By the same token, a suit made to measure fits you
perfectly, there is no compromise.
Handcrafted products can always offer the chance to get something which
fits rather than compromises.
--
Robin
Opinions are my own. Who else would claim them?
Mike & Donna McCombs
>In article
>dst...@cswnet.com (Doug Stowe) wrote:
><snip>
>>It is a real challenge for a craftsman in pricing his/her
work to not
>>short change his/herself and family. I don't have any
magic formula. It
>>is still an every day challenge for me. With manufactured
goods falling in
>>price, and with the general American public lacking an
understanding of
>>why "hand crafted" work has meaning and value, the
craftsman may not only
>>have to produce the work, but also be an educator,
informing potential
>>clients of the techniques involved and the underlying
values involved in
>>the work.
>MKepke responded...
>At the risk of getting heavily flamed, why does truely
hand-crafted work
>"have meaning and value" ? Meaning to who ? Value to who
?
>
>The craftsperson certainly, but why _should_ the public at
large care ?
>
>Are you suggesting that somehow hand-made goods are more
legitimate than
>mass-produced goods ?
>
>-MK
If you have an opportunity to visit a good woodworking
gallery, you can see who cares about meaning and value of
quality hand crafted work. Believe it or not, there are
still people in this world that appreciate what a dedicated
crafts person can produce. From my limited experience in a
local gallery I have been pleasantly surprised at the things
people buy. Unfortunately, the Europeans seem to have a
better appreciation for it than Americans do. I may be wrong
about this because I have based this on short term
observation of people in this one particular gallery, but
Europeans seem to be more willing to spend money on the high
quality more expensive items.
Another observation I made was that the better crafted items
sold better than the less expensive lower quality pieces
with a few exceptions. Some have a knack for creating eye
catching things that seem irresistible to some people.
All of this has no bearing on the legitimacy of mass
production goods. Mass production has contributed to the
standard of living that we have. Without it, many people
could not have the things they have and our whole standard
of living would be reduced considerably. Both mass
production and hand made goods there is some quality and
some crap.
Mike McCombs
To reply, remove NOSPAM from address
NOSP...@sunline.net
Rev Chuck
every sweep of the plane, every single tool mark, is a moment from
the life of the craftsperson. Do the fingerprints Michaelangelo
left on his clay pieces detract, or add? Every variance from ultimately
unattainable perfection is the maker's signature. Whereas a machine
can spit out unlimited numbers of identically cloned articles, there
lacks the blood, sweat, love, and frustrations of a thinking human.
Caroline Usher wrote:
>
> In article <35C0FF27...@netscape.com>, rmax...@netscape.com wrote:
> >
> > We have been programmed by marketing to believe that mass-produced,
> > machined perfection is the ultimate.
>
> And even those of us who do value things made by individual craftsmen (or
> -women) can still get sucked into it. For example, I was showing a tone
> block I made to a friend who is a lute builder. I had carved the sides
> with profile views of a dragon-type monster, based on the designs seen on
> ancient Chinese bronze vessels (Chou dynasty). Anyway I was pointing out
> to my friend various places where I had "goofed up" and failed to make the
> second side just like the first. He said, "But if it's hand-made, why
> should both sides be identical?" Good question, I had to admit. He went
> on, "We just think like that because we're used to things turned out by
> factories, but I'm sure that people [before the Industrial Revolution]
> didn't expect things to be perfectly square or match exactly."
>
> --
> Caroline Usher
> Lute Society of America
> "I brake for theorboes."
--
Rev Chuck,
Alt.Atheism Mark of the IPU #203,
Ordained Reverend, ULC, 17 March, 1997.
Remove -REMOVE_THIS- from address to respond.
Rev Chuck
And there's something very satisfying about preserving and passing on
the knowledge of another human -- there's a thousand ways to do the
same job, easily as good as the way I learned, but there's something
sacred about keeping the master's way alive. Passing on the technique
to others is an incredibly satisfying experience.
My problem with machine precision is that the line between precise
and monotonous is fuzzy. There's so little room for variation unless
you want to build a machine jig for every joint. With the same pencil,
gauge, saw, and chisels, I have no restrictions. I can join two boards
at 127 degrees as quickly as I can at 90. If I want 2 degree tails for
one job, and one job only, I don't have to blow $200 for a bit and
comb plates -- assuming I can actually locate them.
Are machine techniques a threat? Quite the opposite. They're a
challenge to beat, and a liberation for me to do things I would
never have dreamed of otherwise. Think of photography. That anyone
could produce a realistic portrait did not spell the end of painting.
It freed the painters to go on to impressionism, cubism, pointillism,
etc.
Rick Fox wrote:
>
> As for the argument that machine-cut dovetails look too precise, I
> just can't comprehend the logic. If a craftsman spends 40 years
> perfecting hand-cut dovetails and finally gets to where they are
> "air-tight", should he then back off the accuracy so that they will
> have more value? I can't understand why people would want
> imperfection if near-perfection is available with a hand tool (a
> noisy one).
>
> Rick.
mre...@my-dejanews.com
cash flow, so I suppose I ran 'price scared' at that time. What was not
negotiable was the income I needed per month/year. This had to be achieved by
just doing long long hours. Gradually I got to work smarter, although there
are few economies of scale or in production techniques with marquetry.
I found that
1. I had to look for that small market niche, and probably really created one.
2. In order to find out why someone would want to buy hand made objects,
useful or decorative or both, I asked myself why I would want to. One reason
came up very quickly. That is I wouldn't unless I was in the sort of income
bracket where I could afford such. So it seems that we have to look at the
small area of market where the clients have a very high 'luxury' type
disposable income.
3. It more or less followed from 2. above, that we have to sell "outside" the
craft arena. Whilst having other crafts persons ( and art persons) say nice
things and perhaps buy our stuff give us the warm inner glow, its a zero sum
game if we all end up selling to each other. Hence, whilst craft fairs, stalls
etc, do make sales, it is in a competative mode that can only drive prices
down.
4. I also argue that once a piece is decorative only (ie not utilitarian) the
normal rules of price comparison are out the window. The piece appeals to a
would be client for different reasons, and I think that the price is almost
never the primary consideration.
5. The other reason why some handmade craft/art items will sell at a good
price is that there is no alternative. In effect, if you are making unique
work.
Mike Retter
>
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Michael John Hide
I seem to get new customers all the time and I never advertise ,as a
matter of fact the Yellow page people get mad at me because I have no
ads in the book ,I am forever getting offered free web advertising
which I allways turn down because i dont want anymore business. I cant
even cope with the word of mouth customers .
So I am very fortunate , as I have ended up with a group of customers
who are loyal ,very patient and will pay what I ask .
These folks are generally well fixed and come to me for several
reasons
I make a lot of copies , often someone will buy a set of say 8 period
chairs and then deceide they want ten ,so i will make two matching
chairs.,and they end up close enough to the originals you cant pick
them out. Cabinets side tables al kinds of stuff i do matching copies
.Some of my customers I make items they cant get anywhere at any price
,the thing is just not made or available .
One instance ,a customer has a collection of furniture by an 18
century New england cabinetmaker ,she went to auction to buy some
additional pieces a couple of years ago in Washington and spent over
300K but came away with a small bed . She wanted a King size bed ,of
course there was no such thing in the 18th century so I made her one
using the same signature features as the originals featured .
One thing I have never done and that is to gear my prices to my
customers pocketbook .I think most know this and stick with me . It
seems regardless how much money folks have none of them like getting
ripped off .
One thing I do that is difficult to get these days and that is a lot
of hand carving .... mjh
Duke of URL's
>At the risk of getting heavily flamed, why does truely hand-crafted work
>"have meaning and value" ? Meaning to who ? Value to who ?
Flame!!! Finally a good discussion and you bring up a great
counterpoint. No flames here.
>The craftsperson certainly, but why _should_ the public at large care ?
>Are you suggesting that somehow hand-made goods are more legitimate than
>mass-produced goods ?
I have a lot of mass produced products that I place a great deal of
value in. My brand new Bosch jig saw and my HP wide format printer
come immediately to mind. On the other hand when I see someone who's
building furniture or other woodworking pieces I place value on them
because they are not widely available. A one of a kind commission is
just that, the only one. Even when a woodworker makes a massive
number of pieces that are identical what are we talking about, a few
hundred or a few thousand? Hell Beanie Babies are made in the
hundreds of thousands and look at the importance hoisted on them.
If you stop and think about it, woodworking is one of the last
industries that still allows for finely made pieces to the masses at
an affordable price.
Screw collecting tools. I just wish I was rich enough to collect
woodworking pieces from guys like Doug Stowe.
Keith Bohn
George Nazarko
worry that the amount they spend will cut into the children's chow. I
would, however, like to suggest that there are opportunities all the way
along the customer income spectrum if you:
1.Make some things which are affordable to everyone until you work into the
high end clientele. It may be a bit embarrassing among the artsy crowd, or a
bit pretentious in the crafts crowd, but it cultivates folks who are
increasing their earning power to come to you.
1a.Don't price by some rigid hourly schedule. Case in point - takes about
an hour and a half for me to cut a bowl. Doesn't make a bit of difference
whether it's aspen, cherry or Birdseye. Should the price be the same?
(To me the price of aspen is highest at $10 a 100" stick, pick up. The rest
is $55 a full cord, delivered. Cost of materials may affect your final
price.)
1b. Discrimination is OK in commission work. Work your market. I used to
charge three different rates for the same cradle when I was in the service
(lots of cradles sold in that group), one for enlisted, one for officers,
and a third for civilians. Quality of wood/work was the justification. In
reality, I cut five at a time to save setup, which refers back to (1a).
mre...@my-dejanews.com wrote in message
<6pr8tk$sjn$1...@nnrp1.dejanews.com>...
<Cut to the Chase>
Spokeshave
> Are you suggesting that somehow hand-made goods are more legitimate than
> mass-produced goods ?
abso-friggin-lutely
--
~
John
http://www.geocities.com/Heartland/Pointe/1824/
Please post follow-ups to the group.
UnknownProgrammer
but the quality of the overall product with respect to its intended purpose
ie, longevity of use. I agree that most hand made items do outlast mass
produced, however in items used on a daily basis, more often the mass
produced have better quality since the tolerances are often less. To
simply demand a higher price because its hand made is similiar to the
arguement Ferrari has with GM, which is the better? It boils down to if
you cant make it better (making it by hand is NOT necessarily better) for a
better price than change to a different product.
Thats my 2 cents anyways
--
...SPAM PROTECTION IN EFFECT....
Respond to: shap...@yahoo.com
Spokeshave <g*nte...@ctron.com> wrote in article
<35C1B6EE...@ctron.com>...
Rick Fox
1. The amount of work involved - not the type of tools used. A
piece of detailed furniture may have been run through some type of
pantograph machine that produces hundreds of copies a day, while a
simple piece may have taken somebody a week to build.
2. The quality of the work.
These two do not always occur together in the same piece. I have
seen factory-made furniture that I respect. But I can't stand
flea-market "craft" items that somebody throws together (**BY
HAND**), and puts on sale by the dozen without even giving it a
decent sanding.
That's why I can't agree with those who say hand-cut dovetails
always have more value than router-cut dovetails. When I begin
making dovetails, it will be with a router. I know that with a jig,
I can learn to make extremely accurate and tight-fitting joints -
but it will take me a lot of work in practice, set-up, etc.
Somebody who is experienced in hand-cutting dovetails will probably
be able to finish them faster than me and my router. So when I look
at my machine-cut dovetails, I will derive satisfaction from the
amount of work I put into it.
My first project to leave the shop (last week) was a set of 10
stanchions to cordon off a section of a gym. They won't end up in a
museum, but I put about 60 hours of work into them. I think I will
always have a soft spot for them that will not be diminished by the
fact that I used a router on some of the edges.
As for the argument that machine-cut dovetails look too precise, I
just can't comprehend the logic. If a craftsman spends 40 years
perfecting hand-cut dovetails and finally gets to where they are
"air-tight", should he then back off the accuracy so that they will
have more value? I can't understand why people would want
imperfection if near-perfection is available with a hand tool (a
noisy one).
Rick.
MKepke wrote...
> At the risk of getting heavily flamed, why does truely
hand-crafted work
> "have meaning and value" ? Meaning to who ? Value to who ?
>
> The craftsperson certainly, but why _should_ the public at large
care ?
>
> Are you suggesting that somehow hand-made goods are more
legitimate than
> mass-produced goods ?
>
> -MK
Caroline Usher
CharlieDIY
>> machined perfection is the ultimate.
>
I like to believe a hand-made piece is better, when it is, because of the care
and skill that has gone into its making.
Hand-made isn't always better: if you ever get to try prototype tools that are
75% or more hand-made (speaking here of power tools, but it probably applies in
certain types of hand tools as well) you'll come to believe that most of the
time production run tools are far better.
But for furniture, cabinets, art items, hand-made is better, assuming the
craftsman had enough skill to make it so, even if it isn't perfect.
Charlie Self
Doug Stowe
<ric...@nortel.kludge.com> wrote:
> To me, the value of a piece is directly related to two things:
>
> 1. The amount of work involved - not the type of tools used. A
> piece of detailed furniture may have been run through some type of
> pantograph machine that produces hundreds of copies a day, while a
> simple piece may have taken somebody a week to build.
>
> 2. The quality of the work.
>
Rick, I see value and price being two different things. Value always has
to do with utility. Utility to me means performing a function. A simple
nightstand can function directly by making the alarm clock and lamp more
convenient to the person lying in the bed, or indirectly by making the
bedroom more beautiful and fulfilling inner needs for order and MEANING.
A night stand cranked out by a factory can be as well made and as
beautiful as one made by a craftsman. The factory made night may actually
perform better in the area of direct utility. (The one-off piece isn't
necessarily as well refined though as many years of practice making the
same thing over and over.)
For me, the difference between so called hand-crafted work and factory
produced work has to do with the different level of expression of
MEANING. Meaning for me, is what results when something becomes such a
part of our personal lives and stories as to become a part of us. It
frequently develops when we become aware that something in our lives
reflects a deep level of caring by others.
A factory worker can care about the screw he's putting in. A salesman can
care a great deal about the product he's selling. A customer service rep.
can care a great deal about making the customer happy. So, I'm not trying
to say that manufactured goods are careless in any way. The consumer
products that find a lasting place in our homes and become meaningful are
the ones that assure us in their design, usefulness, lasting quality and
customer support, that we, and our concerns are considered and cared
about. But there is a deeper level of caring that expresses something of
our shared humanity. Not just as consumers of products and potential
customers, but as mortals on a shared journey through life.
While the manufactured goods may express perfection in their creation, can
they express human qualities like compassion, or passion or forgiveness?
As we walk the grounds made sacred by the great battles of the Civil War,
are we left unmoved by the stories of those that died there? Or of those
that lived?
Any piece of furniture made by a person, man or woman, tells a story that
is in a sense sacred. About personal growth, and a level of caring, that
is personal rather than corporate. I see the "value" of hand crafted work
in the way it connects us with the essential nature of our humanity on the
one hand, and spirit on the other.
You guys are truly beautiful. Keep up the good work. Yours, Doug
yad...@hotmail.com
>"We just think like that because we're used to things turned out by
>factories, but I'm sure that people [before the Industrial Revolution]
>didn't expect things to be perfectly square or match exactly."
Now, that poses interesting questions. Could it be a rebellion against
mechanization/industrializion that we're talking about? Could a
handmade object satisfy a yearning for simpler times before the
I. Revolution? Do our genes carry the memories of those
simpler (and QUIETER) times? Just askin'.
Thanks, Caroline, for the mind-munchies. Now I've something
to contemplate while my non-duplicating lathe purrs. (I've NEVER
turned two things that are exact mates.)
Herm
change yadlah to halday
Gorbag
> Are you suggesting that somehow hand-made goods are more legitimate than
> mass-produced goods ?
Not more legit, no... but hand-made goods, regardless of their quality,
represent the time of the craftsman. And personal time is the ultimate
limited commodity.
The better the craftsman, the more valuable their time; not necessarily for
their own sake (in this we are all equal), but in their contribution to
art. Who doesn't wish Da Vinci had been around another decade. Or Mozart?
To possess a hand-crafted item is to possess a fragment of someone else's life.
When I make things, I try to make them worth the making. That they will serve
as medallions of where I have been, however indirect the relation.
Michael John Hide
Many moons ago an advertisement sales man walkedinto my shop asking me
if I would consider advertising in his magazine [Southern accents] ,I
gave him a definate NO . He asked why I felt as strongly about it and
I proceeded to explain the only write ups in the magazine were local
artists , and that weavers , potters glass makers ,wrought iron makers
etc including cabinetmakers were never featured .
He left, and returned several days later ,he had recounted my diatribe
to the boss ,and his boss had virtually agreed . He then said that he
had considered running an article on cabinetmakers featuring yours
truely but the poblem was that his major advertisers would feel
slighted as I as a competitor would essentially be getting free
advertising .I could see his point ,but I opened the last issue of the
magazine and there was a two page layout of a rather nice breakfront
being offered by one of the major Highpoint manufacturers .I suggested
to the editor that he enquire of the manufacturer what would be the
cost of building one of those units but 1'' taller and 3'' shorter .I
think at that point he realized what the real word CUSTOM ment .
He ran the article in the following issue for which I will be
eternally grateful...mjh
Phil Rose
<cdub@-REMOVE_THIS-erols.com> wrote:
> It took me less than a month to perfect cutting "air tight" dovetails.
> And there's something very satisfying about preserving and passing on
> the knowledge of another human -- there's a thousand ways to do the
> same job, easily as good as the way I learned, but there's something
> sacred about keeping the master's way alive. Passing on the technique
> to others is an incredibly satisfying experience.
>
> My problem with machine precision is that the line between precise
> and monotonous is fuzzy. There's so little room for variation unless
> you want to build a machine jig for every joint. With the same pencil,
> gauge, saw, and chisels, I have no restrictions. I can join two boards
> at 127 degrees as quickly as I can at 90. If I want 2 degree tails for
> one job, and one job only, I don't have to blow $200 for a bit and
> comb plates -- assuming I can actually locate them.
>
> Are machine techniques a threat? Quite the opposite. They're a
> challenge to beat, and a liberation for me to do things I would
> never have dreamed of otherwise. Think of photography. That anyone
> could produce a realistic portrait did not spell the end of painting.
> It freed the painters to go on to impressionism, cubism, pointillism,
> etc.
>
Nicely put, Chuck.
In regard to your example of photography--the advent of the daguerreotype
150 yrs ago did indeed spell the end--at least of the of miniature portrait
painter. Though it's possible that many of those (miniaturists) went on to
impressionism, etc., many simply became daguerrean photographers (gotta
eat, ya know). Daguerre's technological breakthrough of 1839--silver
plates, iodine vapor, boiling mercury...was then trashed by many as
mechanical and soul-less, but ironically, it's now worshipped as a nearly
lost handicraft yielding unsurpassable quality and beauty. (I'm guilty--a
member of the Daguerreian Society.)
I don't intend this as any slur against hand-woodcrafting. Quite the
opposite. But because skilled handworkers like you (as well as consumers
who can appreciate them) seem to be shrinking in numbers, it is with
similar irony that I forsee our great-great-great-grandkids (in 2150) being
shown the marvelous machine-cut dovetail joint: a paragon of "old-craft
quality" from back in those days when furniture was being made of real
wood. Old video clips of Norm (his router, templates and laser beams) will
be used to illustrate how the old masters accomplished their meticulous,
hand-built, quality woodwork.
Well, maybe your (and my) great-great-great-grandchildren will have _other_
examples to draw upon. :)
Shave on!
P.S. Save the flames ye Normites, please. I admit (in past years) to having
learned from, and been motivated by,...Norm.
Phil Rose
Charlie & Lorraine
my sources of oak and ash comes from old couches and chairs that are being thrown out. The wood is
aged and pre-stressed. After a few days of ripping and removing staples you have many beautiful pieces
of wood. But you do need a surface planer to even the thickness. I have made almost half of my
livingroom furniture from this wood. Anyway, while riding my bicycle I passed the local marina
dumpster. I just happen to look inside and what did I find? The largest pill of mahogany and clear pine
you ever did see. I drove back, filled up the trunk my care and giggling like a little kid while driving
home really fast. I whipped out the old planer, before saying hello to the wife, and uncovered perfect old
mahogany. Now I have to go build some bedroom furniture, see ya next year.
Charlie
Larry Jaques
>Any piece of furniture made by a person, man or woman, tells a story that
>is in a sense sacred. About personal growth, and a level of caring, that
>is personal rather than corporate. I see the "value" of hand crafted work
>in the way it connects us with the essential nature of our humanity on the
>one hand, and spirit on the other.
VERY well put, Doug. It's the sensual/sensory/spiritual side of woodworking
that really draws me. Sawdust and shavings are powerful aroma therapy. The
feel of freshly sanded or scraped wood is tittilating tactile therapy. It's
HAND crafting (vs machining) that allows one to be in touch with the spirit
of the wood, to work with it rather than against it.
And there you have it...as long as the words "arts" and "crafts" aren't
used together--as in pukeyducks.
>You guys are truly beautiful. Keep up the good work. Yours, Doug
Egad, it's getting awfully mushy in here. <sniffle, snort> :>
---------------------------------------------------------
- Clinton never - * Graphic Design for Print and Web
- EXhaled.- * http://diversify.com/ljaques
---------------------------------------------------------
Duke of URL's
>>Any piece of furniture made by a person, man or woman, tells a story that
>>is in a sense sacred.
And speaking of senses, (I know, I know) I have noticed that I can
look at a piece when it's done and remember specific things I was
thinking, seeing, hearing and feeling at the time I was doing this
piece. I betcha don't get that on the factory floor. On the other
hand this may come about because of pride. Wanting to remember a
moment in history and all the essence that made up that moment. Maybe
the argument about perceived value has more to do with pride of making
and less about the physical confines and methods used to create. As
has been said on this forum before, if the Shakers were alive today
they'd be using CNC and driving Unimogs and their furniture would
still be as wonderful as it was in years past.
Keith Bohn
Wilson Lamb
Come on. It's just a matter of what you want to do and what people can
afford. Of course handwork is wonderful, but how much of it can society
afford? We all need and want furniture, after all, so our lives can
proceed. Let's keep all the skills we can, and encourage those who can
produce reasoable furniture we can use at a price we can pay. There's no
conflict here, just economic reality. Furthermore, a lot of people (me)
who don't have the time/patience/skill to do real handwork can at least
produce something they are not ashamed of with the help of more advanced
tools. They deserve to enjoy that work and derive what pleasure they can
without being heckled.
I have to build a whole housefull of cabinetry and you can bet I'm
getting ANYTHING that gets it done more quickly because I have several
other hobbies to which I want to resume enjoying!
Wilson
CharlieDIY
>afford. Of course handwork is wonderful, but how much of it can society
>afford? We all need and want furniture, after all, so our lives can
>proceed. Let's keep all the skills we can, and encourage those who can
>produce reasoable furniture we can use at a price we can pay. There's no
>conflict here, just economic reality.
Well, of course. But for me, handwork includes doing the major stuff on
machines and finishing it myself, etc. In any case, I'm like you, in that I
have more jobs to do than I have time to finish, though I don't have other
hobbies to jump to any more. Gave up the off road motorcycles first, then
horses, when I started taking too long to heal, so now it's woodworking and
lots of attention to safety so I don't bleed too much.
Charlie Self
Quintin
has been 'handcrafted' it implies that it is will built and will last at least
one lifetime probably more. Mass-produced goods imply quick, slap together
work ethics with the goal being to earn a buck. I will not go into the
validity of these perceptions as I don't wish to start another endless
discussion.
Q
Doug Stowe wrote:
> In article <nojunk-3007...@nrtpi763.us.nortel.com>,
> noj...@nojunk.com (MKepke) wrote:
>
>
> > The craftsperson certainly, but why _should_ the public at large care ?
> >
> > Are you suggesting that somehow hand-made goods are more legitimate than
> > mass-produced goods ?
> >
> > -MK
>
> Maybe because we live in a throwaway age in which most
> manufactured goods convey little sense of lasting satisfaction.
>
Rick Fox
your word better - meaning) in a piece that is hand-crafted than
one that came off a production line. After all, we all wouldn't be
involved in this craft if we didn't believe that. I think the main
difference between some of us is where we draw the line.
Some say that true craftsmanship requires hand tools that don't use
electrical/air power. Some say power tools that are used by hand
instead of a production line machine is where the difference lies.
I remember reading about the Rolls Royce as a teenager. One of the
details that stayed with me was that every RR grill that left the
factory had the name of the craftsman who made it engraved on the
inside. To me, that detail added a great deal of meaning to the
car. If I had read that the craftsman had used an electric grinder
to polish the welds, It would not have diminished the appeal one
bit. His name, his reputation, his pride resides in each piece.
When I look at a Doug Stowe precision inlaid box, I see it as a
work of art, hand made, even though his book shows me the
techniques of using a router to build it.
Perhaps, since I am at the beginning stage of this craft, I am
easier to impress than most of the pros here. Gee, I'm still
excited about the drill press table/fence I just finished. When I
saw the effect of Watco Natural on the birch ply, I just had to
call SWMBO out to the shop to see it. :-)
Rick.
Doug Stowe <dst...@cswnet.com> wrote in article
<dstowe-3107...@csesp1-30.cswnet.com>...
> In article <01bdbc8b$e5387380$6426...@NNTPDA6B.bnr.ca>, "Rick
Fox"
> <ric...@nortel.kludge.com> wrote:
>
> > To me, the value of a piece is directly related to two things:
> >
> > 1. The amount of work involved - not the type of tools used. A
> > piece of detailed furniture may have been run through some type
of
> > pantograph machine that produces hundreds of copies a day,
while a
> > simple piece may have taken somebody a week to build.
> >
> > 2. The quality of the work.
> >
>
snip...
> A night stand cranked out by a factory can be as well made and as
> beautiful as one made by a craftsman. The factory made night may
actually
> perform better in the area of direct utility. (The one-off piece
isn't
> necessarily as well refined though as many years of practice
making the
> same thing over and over.)
>
> For me, the difference between so called hand-crafted work and
factory
> produced work has to do with the different level of expression of
> MEANING. Meaning for me, is what results when something becomes
such a
> part of our personal lives and stories as to become a part of us.
It
> frequently develops when we become aware that something in our
lives
> reflects a deep level of caring by others.
C. Brunner
>Caroline Usher quoted a friend:
>>"We just think like that because we're used to things turned out by
>>factories, but I'm sure that people [before the Industrial Revolution]
>>didn't expect things to be perfectly square or match exactly."
>Now, that poses interesting questions. Could it be a rebellion against
>mechanization/industrializion that we're talking about? Could a
>handmade object satisfy a yearning for simpler times before the
>I. Revolution? Do our genes carry the memories of those
>simpler (and QUIETER) times? Just askin'.
>Herm
Can we say, "Craftsman-era"?
ben...@my-dejanews.com
> Think about it this way. Every nail, every plunge of the chisel,
> every sweep of the plane, every single tool mark, is a moment from
> the life of the craftsperson. Do the fingerprints Michaelangelo
> left on his clay pieces detract, or add? Every variance from ultimately
> unattainable perfection is the maker's signature. Whereas a machine
> can spit out unlimited numbers of identically cloned articles, there
> lacks the blood, sweat, love, and frustrations of a thinking human.
Here's another way to think about it. The real art is in things like the
piece's design, the choice of wood in general and which boards in specific,
the joinery, etc. If your intent is to have the piece contain dovetails of a
certain design, why does it matter how those dovetails were cut?
Here's a concrete example. Thos Moser owns a company that makes furniture.
Most would call it high quality furniture. He started out making it himself,
then hired better people at it than him to make the stuff, and he is now
investing in all sorts of machines, including computer controlled NCC
routers. The designs are still his, based mostly on Shaker designs. All the
work is still sanded and oil finished by hand.
So, my question is: which is better piece? The design is the same. Each joint
is the same. Assuming the subsequent creative parts like board selection and
finishing are still done by hand, is it better to have a seat that's sculpted
by hand or a seat that's sculpted by machine? Does it matter if, not knowing,
you can't tell one from the other? Or, say you can tell, why should the seat
that doesn't follow the original design as closely - the asymmetrical hand
sculpted one - be the "better" one? Is not the original intent - the design -
the important thing, and the actual construction of the piece a mere
necessarily evil?
Here's another way to look at it. Why should I spend my time doing something
that a machine can do as well or better? Is not my time better spent on those
things that machines still can't do, or can't do well? That's better for the
final product, better for my sanity, and if I were selling things, better for
the customers, in terms of final product quality and price.
Of course, this is somewhat a Neanderthal vs. Normite discussion. Given two
bookmatched boards, is that one that was hand ripped, hand planed, and hand
scraped any better than the one that was bandsawn, thickness planed by
machine, and hand scraped? Done right in both cases you wouldn't be able to
know which was which.
- Bennett Leeds
Opinions are mine alone.
Duke of URL's
>Perhaps, since I am at the beginning stage of this craft, I am
>easier to impress than most of the pros here. Gee, I'm still
>excited about the drill press table/fence I just finished. When I
>saw the effect of Watco Natural on the birch ply, I just had to
>call SWMBO out to the shop to see it. :-)
Don't sell yourself short Rick. Even the best of the "pros" still
find themselves uttering "hey lookee what I just did". Now I got a
question. Do you ever find yourself at the end of the day pausing to
just stand and look at what you've done? Fun ain't it?
Keith Bohn
Raymond Hearn
You're exactly right...been in this business for close to 30 years now
and surprised myself yesterday. Customer wanted a 18 lite, three door
lookalike picture frame. Didn't think I could pull it off...but did
and it came out great.
OleRay
Rick Fox
I'm the guy over there with the silly grin on his face, holding a
P-C sander in one hand, rubbing his other hand over a piece he just
finished sanding down to 220, mumbling something about an infant's
posterior...
Or standing over a small sample of walnut with a fresh initial coat
of Watco, wondering where they put the batteries that is making
this "glow" I'm seeing.
Rick.
Duke of URL's wrote...
Phil Procter
says...
No, each joint is no longer "the same" in your meaning. Actually, now
each joint is identical and THAT detracts from the value to me. I like
hand cut details because they make each and every piece unique. I also
don't pretend that I could afford a piece of Moser furniture if he was
personally required to make each one. The use of labor, as in employees
and machines, makes the furniture affordable to the masses, and
simultaneously and naturally detracts from it's intrinsic value. Even
though the ultimate precision may be higher, the craftsmanship is lower.
Ultimately, I work with wood for my own enjoyment. I'll never get rich,
nor do I intend to. Heck, I'll never make a living at it, that's why I
have a day job. I hate to give up possesion of a piece. I know where
every mistake is. I know where every hidden joint that took 6 hours to
craft is. I know where I used that "special" piece of wood. I get immense
satisfaction from sitting and contemplating my creation, in all its
frailty.
>
> Here's another way to look at it. Why should I spend my time doing something
> that a machine can do as well or better? Is not my time better spent on those
> things that machines still can't do, or can't do well? That's better for the
> final product, better for my sanity, and if I were selling things, better for
> the customers, in terms of final product quality and price.
In terms of customer product quality (using the current definition of
statistical uniformity to a defined standard) and price: yes, you're
right. It's where we each draw the line between doing it for the income
or for the fun.
A close friend of mine just transitioned from "income hobby" to "Income".
He now hand makes 10 copies of each piece whenever he gets an order for
one. Each piece is "perfect", you can mic the legs and check the fit with
a microscope without seeing error. His biggest problem is how to pay
himself a decent hourly wage. Why. Because he's not famous enough to
charge $3000 for an end table, he has to charge $300 or everyone would
shop at Ikea. At $300 with $100 worth of wood and 15 hours labor, he
can't feed his family. By making 10 pieces he cuts the labor per piece in
half. Accounting has now muddied the art.
>
> Of course, this is somewhat a Neanderthal vs. Normite discussion. Given two
> bookmatched boards, is that one that was hand ripped, hand planed, and hand
> scraped any better than the one that was bandsawn, thickness planed by
> machine, and hand scraped? Done right in both cases you wouldn't be able to
> know which was which.
>
I will know, even if not another person on this planet does. Don't get me
wrong, I use all the power tools I have at my disposal, but mostly that's
because I want to speed up tasks I consider drudgery to spend my time on
the fun stuff. I have no desire to spend five hours cutting rabbets for
my daughters' bookcase. A router can do it in minutes. But, I would never
allow anyone else to put the first coat of oil on a piece. Never. The
thrill of seeing the grain pattern, the look of the joints, pure
goosebumps!
Cheers,
PP
Robin J. Maxwell
>
>
> The real art is in things like the
> piece's design, the choice of wood in general and which boards in specific,
> the joinery, etc. If your intent is to have the piece contain dovetails of a
> certain design, why does it matter how those dovetails were cut?
In a way, no, although machines still can't reproduce dovetails with the
same flexibility as hand cut. They can produce intricate cuts that are
beautiful.
> So, my question is: which is better piece? The design is the same. Each joint
> is the same. Assuming the subsequent creative parts like board selection and
> finishing are still done by hand, is it better to have a seat that's sculpted
> by hand or a seat that's sculpted by machine? Does it matter if, not knowing,
> you can't tell one from the other? Or, say you can tell, why should the seat
> that doesn't follow the original design as closely - the asymmetrical hand
> sculpted one - be the "better" one? Is not the original intent - the design -
> the important thing, and the actual construction of the piece a mere
> necessarily evil?
Still, one is an original and the others copies. The question cannot
simply be which is better? Better for what? Better from what
standpoint?
>
> Why should I spend my time doing something
> that a machine can do as well or better? Is not my time better spent on those
> things that machines still can't do, or can't do well?
No argument. Machines still can't do design and they still can't see if
that bit of figure looks better on the left or the right.
> Given two bookmatched boards, is that one that was hand ripped, hand planed, and hand
> scraped any better than the one that was bandsawn, thickness planed by
> machine, and hand scraped?
Here you have a very good point. Are the boards qualitatively
different? Or as O'Deen might put it "Is there tearout after planing
zebrawood if no one is there to see you sand it?"
For myself (and most of the spiritual posters) it is the total work, not
just the individual boards that makes it handmade. The piece made
totally by hand might garner more respect from those who understand what
that entails. However, if we used that criteria, I don't think too many
would be able to claim handmade at all (perhaps none).
One could imagine that a machine could be created which could copy mark
for mark, stroke for stroke, any handmade thing be it a painting,
sculpture, or woodworking. The copies could match so closely that only
a microscope could tell the difference. Are the copies just as pretty
as the original? Are they just as functional? Of course the physical
characteristics are the same and yet one of them is "original" and all
the others mere copies.
Even copies can be nice to have, especially since most of us cannot have
the originals of the many beautiful things that have been made.
--
Robin
Opinions are my own. Who else would claim them?
Bill & Maggie Bright
done if they had had the opertiunity to buy machines that would produce
10 times the furniture that could be made by hand. They were afterall
in the business to make a living. Would we now be arguing the merits of
hand versus power.
I don't think that there is a "best" way to make this stuff. It's what
ever suits the maker. I do get annoyed at both sides of the fence when
they badmouth the others way of work.
Bill
ben...@my-dejanews.com wrote:
>
> Rev Chuck <cdub@-REMOVE_THIS-erols.com> wrote:
> > Think about it this way. Every nail, every plunge of the chisel,
> > every sweep of the plane, every single tool mark, is a moment from
> > the life of the craftsperson. Do the fingerprints Michaelangelo
> > left on his clay pieces detract, or add? Every variance from ultimately
> > unattainable perfection is the maker's signature. Whereas a machine
> > can spit out unlimited numbers of identically cloned articles, there
> > lacks the blood, sweat, love, and frustrations of a thinking human.
>
> Here's another way to think about it. The real art is in things like the
> piece's design, the choice of wood in general and which boards in specific,
> the joinery, etc. If your intent is to have the piece contain dovetails of a
> certain design, why does it matter how those dovetails were cut?
>
> Here's a concrete example. Thos Moser owns a company that makes furniture.
> Most would call it high quality furniture. He started out making it himself,
> then hired better people at it than him to make the stuff, and he is now
> investing in all sorts of machines, including computer controlled NCC
> routers. The designs are still his, based mostly on Shaker designs. All the
> work is still sanded and oil finished by hand.
>
> So, my question is: which is better piece? The design is the same. Each joint
> is the same. Assuming the subsequent creative parts like board selection and
> finishing are still done by hand, is it better to have a seat that's sculpted
> by hand or a seat that's sculpted by machine? Does it matter if, not knowing,
> you can't tell one from the other? Or, say you can tell, why should the seat
> that doesn't follow the original design as closely - the asymmetrical hand
> sculpted one - be the "better" one? Is not the original intent - the design -
> the important thing, and the actual construction of the piece a mere
> necessarily evil?
>
> Here's another way to look at it. Why should I spend my time doing something
> that a machine can do as well or better? Is not my time better spent on those
> things that machines still can't do, or can't do well? That's better for the
> final product, better for my sanity, and if I were selling things, better for
> the customers, in terms of final product quality and price.
>
> Of course, this is somewhat a Neanderthal vs. Normite discussion. Given two
> bookmatched boards, is that one that was hand ripped, hand planed, and hand
> scraped any better than the one that was bandsawn, thickness planed by
> machine, and hand scraped? Done right in both cases you wouldn't be able to
> know which was which.
>
Paul Kemner
>A close friend of mine just transitioned from "income hobby" to "Income".
>He now hand makes 10 copies of each piece whenever he gets an order for
>shop at Ikea. At $300 with $100 worth of wood and 15 hours labor, he
>can't feed his family. By making 10 pieces he cuts the labor per piece in
>half. Accounting has now muddied the art.
can sell all 10 pieces in the same calendar year he buys the
materials in, he's looking for the big whammy if he ever gets
audited ( VERY high probability with a small woodworking
business).
If he buys $1,000 of wood to make those 10 tables this year, and
sells two of them this year, he can only expense $200 of that
wood cost this year. Same with any other materials he has to buy.
Even though the money is spent and gone! The rest of the material
cost has to wait until the pieces are actually sold. If he can't
manage to quickly blow those "extra" pieces out the door, each
one will act like a brick tied to his neck as he tries to swim
the sea of financial solvency!
At the end of the first year:
$1,000 spent in materials
$600 gross income from the pieces that were sold.
-$200 allowable deduction for materials.
=$400 "profit" from the IRS point of view.
Notice that you're paying taxes on a $400 profit ($600 -$200),
but you actually have $400 less than when you started ($1,000
-$600)! (Actually, it's worse than that, since you've at least
paid 15% self employment tax on that $400, plus Federal Income
tax if you're lucky enough to earn above the poverty level. And
it always seems to be difficult to sell those "extra" pieces at
the same price, since they're never the right size, wood, or
finish for the next buyer. What happens to your income
calculation if you have to sell them at $200, or at $80 to get
rid of them?
anti-spam- remove the x from my address.
Paul Kemner
value of a piece that an individual craftsbeing made (even though
they use machines), because of the interaction of design,
judgement, skill, commitment, etc, etc, etc. that goes into the
piece.
But have you noticed that the various art and craft organizations
seem to do *nothing* in the way building public appreciation for
these qualities? I'm talking about the ACC, and various other
local and national organizations (like the high-falutin'
Furniture Society). They all seem to be full of high-fine-art
wannabees, and nary a penny of all the dues $, or grant $ ever
seems to be used for public education on these matters. It all
seems to be used for self-congratulation on how clever and
contemporary we are by copying Mr Castle, Maloof, Nakashima, or
the guy down the street.
Wouldn't it be swell if someone was teaching John and Mary Q.
Publik that the pieces in the furniture store aren't *really*
hand-crafted, even though they show a picture of a guy holding a
hand plane against that finished table? What about if Mr.
$150,000 income actually appreciated all the work and skill that
goes into a piece of furniture? Most people who spend $ on
decorating their home spend more on window coverings and
wallpaper than they do on furniture!
George Nazarko
talking about!
Doug Stowe wrote in message ...
>Top ten reasons for doing it the hard way.
>
>10. The machine is noisy.
>9. You prefer a challenge.
>8. You want to be part of a tradition.
>7. You take particular pride of accomplishment in your work.
>6. You want to express "patience".
>5. You like the "feel" of it.
>4. You want to make something that is unique.
>3. You want to "commune" and unite with the wood.
>2. You wish to leave a legacy of careful craftsmanship.
>
>And the number one reason:
>Because YOU CAN!
>
Larry Jaques
>Here's another way to look at it. Why should I spend my time doing something
>that a machine can do as well or better?
It's quite obvious that you are entirely lacking in the understanding of
anything pertaining to woodworking. Perhaps a definition will help.
WOOD = boards n' stuff made from trees. (debarked, as all dogs should be)
WORK = put forth effort, toil, strive, (contextually: have FUN!, nurture,
rub, stroke, coax, emote, create, shape, shave, conform, etc.)
ING = if you don't know at least this one, you's in deep trouble, boy.
Many (if not all) of your psychological problems may be alleviated by
learning this wonderful sideline...if you're NEANDER enough.
Good luck!
--------------------------------------------------------------------
The more we gripe, * http://diversify.com/ljaques/stees.html
the longer God makes us live. * Graphic Design - Humorous T-shirts
MKepke
>I'v often wondered what the furniture makers 200 years ago would have
>done if they had had the opertiunity to buy machines that would produce
>10 times the furniture that could be made by hand. They were afterall
>in the business to make a living. Would we now be arguing the merits of
>hand versus power.
I expect it wouldn't make very much difference, except in a few extreme
cases. Artists like Tiffany had large factories filled with the best
tools of the day (craftsmen) and their stuff is highly prized today.
Although some firms allowed the individual craftsperson to sign the work,
much of the highly prized goods from yester-year are basically anonymous -
at least that's my take on it after watching quite a few episodes of
"Antiques RoadShow" (tm).
Personally, I buy into the notion of meaning, but normally only for
decorative (artistic) pieces. Beauty is in the function.
-MK
--
-M.Kepke
My opinions, etc.
To send email, replace nojunk with mkepke and nortel respectively.
Doug Stowe
>Here's another way to look at it. Why should I spend my time doing something
>that a machine can do as well or better?
Top ten reasons for doing it the hard way.
10. The machine is noisy.
9. You prefer a challenge.
8. You want to be part of a tradition.
7. You take particular pride of accomplishment in your work.
6. You want to express "patience".
5. You like the "feel" of it.
4. You want to make something that is unique.
3. You want to "commune" and unite with the wood.
2. You wish to leave a legacy of careful craftsmanship.
And the number one reason:
Because YOU CAN!
A piece of hand-crafted furniture may not be better to sit upon, but it(
and it's machine made one-of-a-kind cousin) is (in my opinion) an
expression of the triumph of its maker.
jim mcnamara
for a really long time.
The wood is really pretty just to look at.... the ray flecks, and so on....
until I let a corner of one down on my toe, that is.
It's great fun to make something that looks good, -- to me anyway.
It's also fun when people Ooooo over something you've made.
jim mcnamara
ben...@my-dejanews.com
> ben...@my-dejanews.com wrote:
> >Here's another way to look at it. Why should I spend my time doing something
> >that a machine can do as well or better?
>
Oh, my poor nephew Larry. You had a golden opportunity to do some *real*
neander proselytizing here, but blew it for the sake of some childish digs at
me. Talk about carrying grudges. Is being on Bennett-flame-fodder patrol that
much of a high for you?
That's too bad, really, because the other contributors to this thread are
actually bothering to read the other posts, and are not pulling things out of
context to get some childish insult in. For instance, the rest of my paragraph
after the sentence you quoted was:
"Is not my time better spent on those things that machines still can't do, or
can't do well? That's better for the final product, better for my sanity, and
if I were selling things, better for the customers, in terms of final product
quality and price."
It's unfortunate that you decided to flame instead commenting on my "Neo-
Normite" approach to woodworking.
> Many (if not all) of your psychological problems may be alleviated by
> learning this wonderful sideline...if you're NEANDER enough.
Well, it obviously hasn't alleviated any of your psychological problems.
OK, so following your example, I gave it a shot, but I gotta tell you, Larry,
that taking pot shots at others doesn't do much for me. Is it better for you
when they're unprovoked? Maybe I should follow your example more closely.
Had you actually wanted to talk about "NEANDER" things, you might have
addressed my closing remarks:
"Of course, this is somewhat a Neanderthal vs. Normite discussion. Given two
bookmatched boards, is the one that was hand ripped, hand planed, and hand
scraped any better than the one that was bandsawn, thickness planed by
machine, and hand scraped? Done right in both cases you wouldn't be able to
know which was which."
But, no, that would break your record of over two years of non-flame-free
responses to, and referrals of, me.
- Bennett Leeds
ben...@my-dejanews.com
ben...@my-dejanews.com
> Actually, now each joint is identical and THAT detracts from the value to me.
I've looked at many photos of Krenov's work. The dovetails on his drawers
look, in extreme close-up, as perfect as any machine could make. Are you
saying his pieces would be more valuable if they were less well executed?
If the original intent - the original design - was to have identical joints,
why should a person's inability to faithfully implement that original intent
be a Good Thing? If one likes the look of varying joints, would it not be
best to design varying joints in a pleasing way and implement those exactly?
Isn't that what Krenov's variably-spaced dovetails are all about? He designs
the variations in, he doesn't rely on lack to skill to achieve variations in
a pleasing manner.
> I like hand cut details because they make each and every piece unique.
Why is unintended uniqueness in minor details so important?
The only way I could agree that small variations from the original design help
a piece would be if the original design wasn't very good.
> I also don't pretend that I could afford a piece of Moser furniture if he was
> personally required to make each one.
Actually, Mr. Moses claims that his employees do a better job than he ever
did.
> The use of labor, as in employees and machines, makes the furniture
> affordable to the masses, and simultaneously and naturally detracts from it's
> intrinsic value.
I don't see where you're talking about intrinsic value. The "essential
nature" of the chair is the chair, not how the chair was made. The intrinsic
value of a stamp, for instance, is the postage. Stamps that are extremely
rare are very expensive, but that's not an intrinsic valuation - should
someone find a cache of a million of the previously rarest stamp known the
price of that once-lone stamp would suddenly be much much less, but its
intrinsic value would remain.
> Even though the ultimate precision may be higher, the craftsmanship is lower.
How can doing a worse job be indicative of better craftsmanship?
> Ultimately, I work with wood for my own enjoyment.
Here we agree. There is much enjoyment to be gained from the acts of
designing and building. But, after the piece is done, the added value from
these acts is sentimental value, not intrinsic value. Your grand-dad's pocket
watch is priceless to you because of the memories it invokes, but it may be
just another old broken watch to the rest of the world.
- Bennett Leeds
Richy
> Rev Chuck <cdub@-REMOVE_THIS-erols.com> wrote:
> > Think about it this way. Every nail, every plunge of the chisel,
> > every sweep of the plane, every single tool mark, is a moment from
> > the life of the craftsperson. Do the fingerprints Michaelangelo
> > left on his clay pieces detract, or add? Every variance from
Michelangelo? Not exactly a real world example. The question should be
"do fingerprints (or stray chisel marks) left by Rev Chuck (or me) detract,
or add?" To you, perhaps the answer is add, but to me and virtually
everyone who should care to admire (or scorn) our work, the answer is
certainly detract. Michelangelo we ain't! If I pay big bucks for a custom
bike frame, I not only expect it to fit me perfectly, but I also expect the
joinery to be flawless. So it is with custom furniture. Sloppy joinery
(and fingerprints) aren't acceptable, hand-cut or not.
But a philosophical question and answer session is not very useful to
someone trying to price their work in order to make a living. Is a
hand-planed tabletop more valuable to Joe Consumer than a machine planed
one? No. Is being able to order furniture exactly to size, function, and
species of wood valuable? Hopefully, yes. But just how much $$ that
consumer places on this freedom is extremely variable.
Rich
Michael John Hide
>Opinions are mine alone.
>
>-----== Posted via Deja News, The Leader in Internet Discussion ==-----
>http://www.dejanews.com/rg_mkgrp.xp Create Your Own Free Member Forum
There does not seem to be any common ground between the pure handtool
and the pure powertool groups .
Bennett has some good points,if you happen to be in the business being
a neander spells nothing but suicide ,do you think Chippendale would
have ignored a 30" planer ? not on your life . Do you think it would
have compromised the quality of the work again I dont think so,it
might even have made his product better inasmuch like myself it allows
the craftsman more time to execute the things that a machine cant do,
and those are many .[That sentence really sorts the smokers and
nonsmokers out]
It is of interest to know how to hand plane a board to a useable
condition ,but after half a dozen or so it doesnt take long to realize
it is just another of those boring woodworking chores and you begin
to long for some machine to do it for you ...mjh
Rick Fox
snip...
> It's great fun to make something that looks good, -- to me
anyway.
> It's also fun when people Ooooo over something you've made.
How about this one:
"YOU made that?"
"I didn't know YOU could do that!"
I'm wondering how to take that... then my son walks up...
"YOU made that, Dad?"
Bob Zajicek
>
> > Rev Chuck <cdub@-REMOVE_THIS-erols.com> wrote:
> > > Think about it this way. Every nail, every plunge of the chisel,
> > > every sweep of the plane, every single tool mark, is a moment from
> > > the life of the craftsperson. Do the fingerprints Michaelangelo
Richy sez...
> certainly detract. Michelangelo we ain't! If I pay big bucks for a custom
> bike frame, I not only expect it to fit me perfectly, but I also expect the
> joinery to be flawless. So it is with custom furniture. Sloppy joinery
> (and fingerprints) aren't acceptable, hand-cut or not.
(Good analogy, bike frame.) You betch yer booties they ain't
acceptable. After followin' these sorta discussions before,
I'm wonderin' how many out there have actually paid *big
bucks* for a custom made or custom *anything* and returned it
for rework because of those very *imperfect* joints, seams,
hem lines, fit, finish, whatever? IOW, those that prefer to
overlook 'flawed' *craftsmanship* may think it's OK for the
projects produced by them inna informal hobbiests'
environment. Howz about when the shoe is on the other foot,
and you're at the receiving end of a flawed piece crafted, by
a company / individual for which you have parted with a fair
amount of wampum? Still OK?
> But a philosophical question and answer session is not very useful to
> someone trying to price their work in order to make a living. Is a
> hand-planed tabletop more valuable to Joe Consumer than a machine planed
> one? No. Is being able to order furniture exactly to size, function, and
> species of wood valuable? Hopefully, yes. But just how much $$ that
> consumer places on this freedom is extremely variable.
I agree with your last, and would like to add that it can
certainly be dependent on the level of craftsmanship of the
producer, relative to the complexity of the piece / job.
Cheers, Bob
Tad
>Furthermore, a lot of people (me) who don't have the time/patience/skill
>to do real handwork can at least
You are obviously the best person to judge, but I hope you aren't
selling yourself short.
> I have to build a whole housefull of cabinetry and you can bet I'm
>getting ANYTHING that gets it done more quickly because I have several
>other hobbies to which I want to resume enjoying!
And there is certainly nothing wrong with that.
BT
Tad
>> Rev Chuck <cdub@-REMOVE_THIS-erols.com> wrote:
>> > Think about it this way. Every nail, every plunge of the chisel,
>> > every sweep of the plane, every single tool mark, is a moment from
>> > the life of the craftsperson. Do the fingerprints Michaelangelo
>Michelangelo? Not exactly a real world example. The question should
be
>"do fingerprints (or stray chisel marks) left by Rev Chuck (or me)
detract,
Michelangelo's fingerprints _are_ tool marks. Or is that what you are
trying to get across? IMHO, they do add greatly to my appreciation of his
work.
>or add?" To you, perhaps the answer is add, but to me and virtually
>everyone who should care to admire (or scorn) our work, the answer is
>certainly detract. Michelangelo we ain't! If I pay big bucks for a
custom
It depends on whether they add to or subtract from the overall design.
A huge planing mark with accompanying tear-out on a table top is not
equivalent to plane marks on a drawer bottom roughed out of solid wood.
In my experience, people in general are absolutely enthralled to find
evidence that something is handmade.
>bike frame, I not only expect it to fit me perfectly, but I also expect
the
>joinery to be flawless. So it is with custom furniture. Sloppy joinery
>(and fingerprints) aren't acceptable, hand-cut or not.
Huh? Who said anything about sloppy joinery?
>But a philosophical question and answer session is not very useful to
>someone trying to price their work in order to make a living. Is a
I think this discussion has wandered far beyond that narrow scope.
>hand-planed tabletop more valuable to Joe Consumer than a machine planed
Who cares? It is to me and I don't sell my stuff.
>one? No. Is being able to order furniture exactly to size, function,
and
>species of wood valuable? Hopefully, yes. But just how much $$ that
>consumer places on this freedom is extremely variable.
That's why I build it myself and "pay" for it with my free time.
BT
Tad
Bennett Leeds wrote:
>I've looked at many photos of Krenov's work. The dovetails on his drawers
>look, in extreme close-up, as perfect as any machine could make. Are you
*chuckle* So why do you suppose he doesn't just use a machine? I
think he could afford a pretty infinite variety of jigs, bits, etc.
Say, isn't this the feller that, IIRC, drove a 16d nail into the front
of one of his finished pieces and bent it over because it was "too
perfect?"
>saying his pieces would be more valuable if they were less well executed?
They'd sure be less valuable without his name attached to them. And
that's not meant as a slight to Mr. Krenov or his work.
>If the original intent - the original design - was to have identical
joints,
>why should a person's inability to faithfully implement that original
intent
>be a Good Thing? If one likes the look of varying joints, would it not be
>best to design varying joints in a pleasing way and implement those
exactly?
Sure. But that sort of "deviation" in a piece really lends itself
better to hand tools than to power tools IMHO. At the very least, it
tends to negate any advantage that power tools lend.
>Isn't that what Krenov's variably-spaced dovetails are all about? He
designs
>the variations in, he doesn't rely on lack to skill to achieve variations
in
>a pleasing manner.
Hmmm. I suppose he _could_ fart around with a DT jig, repositioning it
constantly and changing bits around etc. But _why_ would he want to?
Looks to me like he doesn't need to and it wouldn't be any faster/better
of a result.
So why? Why would he want to putz around trying to make a power tool do
something that his hand tools do just as well or better?
>> I like hand cut details because they make each and every piece unique.
>
>Why is unintended uniqueness in minor details so important?
Why are factory furniture manufacturers scribing fake baselines on thier
machine cut dovetails?
>The only way I could agree that small variations from the original design
help
>a piece would be if the original design wasn't very good.
>Actually, Mr. Moses claims that his employees do a better job than he
ever
^^^^^^^^^^
Mistype, or very high esteem? ;)
>I don't see where you're talking about intrinsic value. The "essential
>nature" of the chair is the chair, not how the chair was made. The
intrinsic
>value of a stamp, for instance, is the postage. Stamps that are extremely
Cost of the paper. Postage is moot for a collected specimen (which has
most likely been through the mail already anyway).
A "collectable" stamp is worth much less to a non-collector (especially
if they have no idea what it is) in the same way a Powermatic, Unisaw or
IT dovetail saw is worth much less to a non-woodworker. No surprise
there, right?
>Here we agree. There is much enjoyment to be gained from the acts of
>designing and building. But, after the piece is done, the added value
from
>these acts is sentimental value, not intrinsic value. Your grand-dad's
pocket
Good point, but unless you are planning on selling it, who cares?
This whole discussion really boils down to the difference between making
something for yourself, to _your_ standards and making something for
somebody else and trying to convince them to pay for _your_ standards.
(whether they be higher or lower than those of the customer)
Makes me glad that I'm not a pro and don't have to worry about it.
BT
Dave Randolph
>
> > Rev Chuck <cdub@-REMOVE_THIS-erols.com> wrote:
> > > Think about it this way. Every nail, every plunge of the chisel,
> > > every sweep of the plane, every single tool mark, is a moment from
> > > the life of the craftsperson. Do the fingerprints Michaelangelo
> > > left on his clay pieces detract, or add? Every variance from
>
> Michelangelo? Not exactly a real world example. The question should be
> "do fingerprints (or stray chisel marks) left by Rev Chuck (or me) detract,
Sorry , Rev. Chuck. I don't remember Michelangelo leaving any major clay
works. The stuff he is famous for is marble and painting some chapel.
Yes, he also left some wood sculptures. Wood and marble do not leave
fingerprints. Now, it is true that he did some increditable surface
finishings such as on the Pieta. At the same time, towards the end of
his life, his pieces became looser. The unfinished last work really
doesn't look all that good.
Dave
Taking heart to know that sculpture takes a long while and so not
getting bent out of shape that my work takes more than a year to finish
one piece.
www.prairietrail.com/wood.html
Michael Pierce
>ppro...@pipeline.com (Phil Procter) wrote:
>> Actually, now each joint is identical and THAT detracts from the value to me.
>
>I've looked at many photos of Krenov's work. The dovetails on his drawers
>look, in extreme close-up, as perfect as any machine could make. Are you
>saying his pieces would be more valuable if they were less well executed?
>
>If the original intent - the original design - was to have identical joints,
>why should a person's inability to faithfully implement that original intent
>be a Good Thing? If one likes the look of varying joints, would it not be
>best to design varying joints in a pleasing way and implement those exactly?
>Isn't that what Krenov's variably-spaced dovetails are all about? He designs
>the variations in, he doesn't rely on lack to skill to achieve variations in
>a pleasing manner.
>
>
>> I like hand cut details because they make each and every piece unique.
>
>Why is unintended uniqueness in minor details so important?
>
>The only way I could agree that small variations from the original design help
>a piece would be if the original design wasn't very good.
>
>
>> I also don't pretend that I could afford a piece of Moser furniture if he was
>> personally required to make each one.
>
>Actually, Mr. Moses claims that his employees do a better job than he ever
>did.
>
>
>> The use of labor, as in employees and machines, makes the furniture
>> affordable to the masses, and simultaneously and naturally detracts from it's
>> intrinsic value.
>
>I don't see where you're talking about intrinsic value. The "essential
>nature" of the chair is the chair, not how the chair was made. The intrinsic
>value of a stamp, for instance, is the postage. Stamps that are extremely
>rare are very expensive, but that's not an intrinsic valuation - should
>someone find a cache of a million of the previously rarest stamp known the
>price of that once-lone stamp would suddenly be much much less, but its
>intrinsic value would remain.
>
>
>> Even though the ultimate precision may be higher, the craftsmanship is lower.
>
>How can doing a worse job be indicative of better craftsmanship?
>
>
>> Ultimately, I work with wood for my own enjoyment.
>
>Here we agree. There is much enjoyment to be gained from the acts of
>designing and building. But, after the piece is done, the added value from
>these acts is sentimental value, not intrinsic value. Your grand-dad's pocket
>watch is priceless to you because of the memories it invokes, but it may be
>just another old broken watch to the rest of the world.
>
>- Bennett Leeds
>
>Opinions are mine alone.
>
>-----== Posted via Deja News, The Leader in Internet Discussion ==-----
>http://www.dejanews.com/rg_mkgrp.xp Create Your Own Free Member Forum
Must you overthink and overanalyze everything?
Michael Pierce
Michael Pierce
<rmax...@netscape.com> wrote:
>
>For myself (and most of the spiritual posters) it is the total work, not
>just the individual boards that makes it handmade. The piece made
>totally by hand might garner more respect from those who understand what
>that entails. However, if we used that criteria, I don't think too many
>would be able to claim handmade at all (perhaps none).
>
To me, its not what others think of your work, but what you get out of
the process of making it. The pleasure of woodworking is more in the
process, (whatever that process may be for you), than the finished
product.
If the pleasure of woodworking isn't derived from the process, then I
have a hard time explaining why I was grinning the other day as I
stood in the basement with a handplane bearing my grandfather's
initials in my hands and a large pile of shavings at my feet to show
for my efforts...
Michael Pierce
ben...@my-dejanews.com
> Bennett Leeds wrote:
> >I've looked at many photos of Krenov's work. ...
>
> Say, isn't this the feller that, IIRC, drove a 16d nail into the front
> of one of his finished pieces and bent it over because it was "too
> perfect?"
Nope - that was Gary Knox Bennett (no relation ;^)).
> >Isn't that what Krenov's variably-spaced dovetails are all about? He
> >designs the variations in, he doesn't rely on lack to skill to achieve
> >variations in a pleasing manner.
>
> Hmmm. I suppose he _could_ fart around with a DT jig, repositioning it
> constantly and changing bits around etc.
Well, assumming that the design fits within the restrictions of router bits
(narrow part of the shank limits the narrow part of the tail sockets), then he
could do variably sized and spaced dovetails without continual farting. If he
were doing multiples, he'd save a lot of time. Or, if he were a mere mortal
like many of us, he'd end up with a better result on singles.
Of course, if lots of people really appreciated dovetails narrower than router
bits can create, someone would invent a machine to make them so that mass
manufacturers could incorporate them in their products.
> So why? Why would he want to putz around trying to make a power tool do
> something that his hand tools do just as well or better?
No reason, if that were indeed case (and it is for some things), just as
there's no reason to make a hand tool do something that his power tools do
better or faster. I know Krenov's class at College of the Redwoods makes heavy
use of power jointers and planers as well as hand smoothing planes, for
instance.
> >> I like hand cut details because they make each and every piece unique.
> >
> >Why is unintended uniqueness in minor details so important?
>
> Why are factory furniture manufacturers scribing fake baselines on thier
> machine cut dovetails?
I don't follow: Scribing fake baselines is an intentional thing.
> >Actually, Mr. Moses claims that his employees do a better job than he
> ever
> ^^^^^^^^^^
> Mistype, or very high esteem? ;)
I seem to be having trouble with names this week. If it makes Richy feel any
better, my name's been spelled wrong more than most. Sorry, dude.
> This whole discussion really boils down to the difference between making
> something for yourself, to _your_ standards and making something for
> somebody else and trying to convince them to pay for _your_ standards.
> (whether they be higher or lower than those of the customer)
A good summary. A key to success is to make things to the customer's
standards at a price that the customer thinks is acceptable. Actually, I
suspect the really sucessful (dollar-wise) businesspeople make things at the
customer's price point to a standard that the customer thinks is acceptable.
Some here have talked about educating customers: that's really just a way of
changing the customer's standards to match the maker's.
> Makes me glad that I'm not a pro and don't have to worry about it.
Yeah, I harbor no dreams of doing woodworking for a living. I do harbor dreams
of not having to work to afford the woodworking I do, though.
- Bennett Leeds
ben...@my-dejanews.com
Larry Jaques
>> >Here's another way to look at it. Why should I spend my time doing something
>> >that a machine can do as well or better?
>>
>> It's quite obvious that you are entirely lacking in the understanding of
>> anything pertaining to woodworking. ...
>
>Oh, my poor nephew Larry. You had a golden opportunity to do some *real*
>neander proselytizing here, but blew it for the sake of some childish digs at
I repeat my statement quoted above. Go whittle something. It'll do you a
world of good.
>me. Talk about carrying grudges. Is being on Bennett-flame-fodder patrol that
>much of a high for you?
Here I try to save you from yourself and what do you do?
You come after me. Amazing! <tsk, tsk, tsk>
<The moral here? I see Bennett saying "You knew I was a snake...">
P.S: I swat at flies, too.
--more sniveldom deleted--
>But, no, that would break your record of over two years of non-flame-free
>responses to, and referrals of, me.
Can you read between the lines? I don't recall where it started but your
posts usually raise my hackles for some reason. My normal railings on you
are usually prompted by one of your own acid posts raining down on someone
else from your Mt. Olympus home, so you really shouldn't be so surprised.
'Nuff said.
Close "B". Close "Mode". Close "Bennett". Delete files.
Larry Jaques
>ben...@my-dejanews.com wrote:
> >Here's another way to look at it. Why should I spend my time doing something
> >that a machine can do as well or better?
>Top ten reasons for doing it the hard way.
Eleven Atta Boys comin' atcha, Doug.
Good shew, old chap.
P.S: Bennie, don't take the mood of this post to heart. I was posting
kudos to the logic and concepts he was stating. This has nothing to
do with you...unless you can someday grasp any of them.
Duke of URL's
>If it makes Richy feel any better, my name's been spelled wrong more than most.
And on occasion you've even been call Ed.
Keith (Playing Nice) Bohn
Richy
Tad <t...@worf.netins.net> wrote in article
<6qal4g$cjj$1...@ins8.netins.net>...
> Michelangelo's fingerprints _are_ tool marks. Or is that what you are
> trying to get across?
Congratulations.
> A huge planing mark with accompanying tear-out on a table top is not
> equivalent to plane marks on a drawer bottom roughed out of solid wood.
Good point.
> In my experience, people in general are absolutely enthralled to find
> evidence that something is handmade.
I would call that an overstatement, but on all but the least visible
surfaces they shouldn't be able to tell, anyway.
> Huh? Who said anything about sloppy joinery?
I believe I did. If you mean who started it, I believe Chuck did.
> >But a philosophical question and answer session is not very useful to
> >someone trying to price their work in order to make a living. Is a
> I think this discussion has wandered far beyond that narrow scope.
I've already pointed that out.
> >hand-planed tabletop more valuable to Joe Consumer than a machine planed
>
> Who cares? It is to me and I don't sell my stuff.
Quite obviously anyone selling stuff cares. And your answer is a complete
copout. Of course your work is more valuable to you than to anyone else.
But if you did sell your stuff you'd find out just what that hand job is
worth to everyone else, wouldn't you?
Rich
Tad
>> Hmmm. I suppose he _could_ fart around with a DT jig, repositioning
it
>> constantly and changing bits around etc.
>Well, assumming that the design fits within the restrictions of router
bits
>(narrow part of the shank limits the narrow part of the tail sockets),
then he
>could do variably sized and spaced dovetails without continual farting.
If he
Really? I suppose it depends on how many times he uses the same
"varied" spacing eh? How many times can you use the same spacing before
it stops being "varied?"
>were doing multiples, he'd save a lot of time. Or, if he were a mere
mortal
>like many of us, he'd end up with a better result on singles.
Watching somebody who knows what they are doing (not me) cutting
dovetails with a sharp saw and sharp chisel it's easy to see why they
don't just break out the DT jig. They don't need it and it'd just slow
them down.
Myself, I've tried using the jigs, even the nice ones. Frustrating as
hell. They do have one great big advantage IMHO: repeatability. Once
they are set up for a certain spacing and size, they'll do it forever and
pretty well.
Of course, with the sort of work that I do, repeatability is _much_ less
important than flexability. It's awful hard (for me) to get up the
gumption to futz around with the jig for each different sized drawer.
Everything starts looking good with one size and spacing. Sort of the old
"If'n ya only got a hammer..." thing.
So, I bit the bullet and tried doing it by hand on a small project. It
was shockingly easy to do IMO and now, it's easier for me to visualise
things like variable spacing, differing sizes on the same joint, etc. I
feel more free to experiment because I'm pretty sure that everything will
end up looking fine at the end of the project and that I can "finesse"
away the mistakes that do happen.
>Of course, if lots of people really appreciated dovetails narrower than
router
>bits can create, someone would invent a machine to make them so that mass
>manufacturers could incorporate them in their products.
What sort of machine would you use to do the coved drawer on the front
cover of "The Toolbox Book?" ;)
>> So why? Why would he want to putz around trying to make a power tool
do
>> something that his hand tools do just as well or better?
>No reason, if that were indeed case (and it is for some things), just as
C'mon, you really believe that somebody who knows how to cut dovetails
by hand would choose a DT jig for a one-off (or even two-off) variably
spaced dovetail joint?
I'm not trying to say that hand cut dovetails are more "pure" or
anything like that, but do seem to be vastly overrated as far as
difficulty. Maybe because of the sorry excuse for "dovetail" saws that
the average Joe has access to.
Maybe Paddy should expand the crowbar FAQ to include a section on how to
crowbar out some time to learn technique.
For my part, I'm going to crowbar out a chunk of time to expand my
finishing skills. (this might take a while)
>there's no reason to make a hand tool do something that his power tools
do
>better or faster. I know Krenov's class at College of the Redwoods makes
heavy
>use of power jointers and planers as well as hand smoothing planes, for
>instance.
Use the right tool for the job. What's so hard about that?
Looking at virtually every woodworking magazine in the world and threads
in this newsgroup, it seems to me that "Joe average woodworker" is so
enthralled with power tools that he'll spend hours (and $$) on building a
jig so that he won't have to spend a few minutes with a hand tool (that
probably would cost less than a good router bit, maybe even less than a
homebuilt jig)
I don't believe for a second that hand-tool technique is so hard to
learn that it's above the talents of the average woodworker. Hell, even
Nahm uses a handsaw or block plane occasionally.
>> >Why is unintended uniqueness in minor details so important?
>>
>> Why are factory furniture manufacturers scribing fake baselines on
thier
>> machine cut dovetails?
>I don't follow: Scribing fake baselines is an intentional thing.
Sure it is, but why do they do it?
IMHO it's because people in general _do_ value seeing evidence that
something was made by a human. Maybe they don't value it enough to pay a
fair wage, but they do value it enough that they feel better about buying
overpriced machine-made furniture if it has even the smallest symbolic
reflection of a hand-made item.
BT
Tad
>Tad <t...@worf.netins.net> wrote in article
><6qal4g$cjj$1...@ins8.netins.net>...
>> Michelangelo's fingerprints _are_ tool marks. Or is that what you
are
>> trying to get across?
>Congratulations.
So why do you suppose he didn't just wipe them off with a wet rag?
Would it make the finished product better?
>> In my experience, people in general are absolutely enthralled to find
>> evidence that something is handmade.
>I would call that an overstatement, but on all but the least visible
>surfaces they shouldn't be able to tell, anyway.
But what a great surprise to find those telltale marks. IMO. Not
sloppy joinery, not cobbled together crap. Just small pieces of evidence
that some person spent some of their valuable time building it.
>> Huh? Who said anything about sloppy joinery?
>I believe I did. If you mean who started it, I believe Chuck did.
Uh huh. I didn't realise he was talking about sloppy joinery. Is there
a reason you brought it up? Thought no-one would notice?
>> >hand-planed tabletop more valuable to Joe Consumer than a machine
planed
>>
>> Who cares? It is to me and I don't sell my stuff.
^^^^^^^^^
Conversational, not literal. If you care.
>Quite obviously anyone selling stuff cares. And your answer is a
complete
>copout. Of course your work is more valuable to you than to anyone else.
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
Nice dig Richy.
How about this: It's important to me. I would gladly pay extra money
for it, but luckily, I don't have to. I do spend a lot of free time on
it, so yeah, I guess it is important enough to me to "pay" for it.
I'm with Keith on this one, I'd fill my house with collectable furniture
if I could. As it is, I make furniture that is as close as a hack like me
can get.
If you don't care, fine. You'll have a lot easier time finding
furniture as well.
>But if you did sell your stuff you'd find out just what that hand job is
>worth to everyone else, wouldn't you?
Wow! Another. How special.
So, tell us, when you make stuff for yourself... Do you honestly
consider retail value?
BT
"Hand Job -- BWAHAHAHAHAHA"
ben...@my-dejanews.com
> I repeat my statement quoted above.
Aw, all out of *new* insults, so you just gotta repeat your old ones? Might I
suggest you go see Patrick - he's got an apparently unending supply. He can
also give you some sincere apologies to use afterwards, but you'll skip those.
At any rate, I appreciate you confirming that flaming me is more important to
you than actually contributing to an otherwise worthwhile thread.
> My normal railings on you....
So, you don't deny that your behavior towards me here is totally inexcuseable.
And supposedly I'm the one carrying a grudge.
- Bennett Leeds
ben...@my-dejanews.com
Opinions are mine alone.
-----== Posted via Deja News, The Leader in Internet Discussion ==-----
ben...@my-dejanews.com
> On Wed, 05 Aug 1998 18:56:21 GMT, ben...@my-dejanews.com wrote:
>
> Must you overthink and overanalyze everything?
Is that it? *That* is your contribution to this thread? You quote my on-
woodworking-topic post in its entirety just so you can include a one-line
flame of me?
And to think that just two days ago there you were, claiming to the world that
I was carrying a grudge. Obviously, the truth is exactly the opposite.
- Bennett Leeds
ben...@my-dejanews.com
Just say I'm posting to give Michael a fresh and honest perspective.
Patrick Olguin
> how to crowbar out some time to learn technique.
Good idea.
Instead of purchasing the next release of Jerry Springer's "Too Hot
for Television," video series, the aspiring woodworker could pry
his/her well-worn copy of Wrestlemania IV out of the VCR, and insert
one of those fangled handsaw sharpening videos from Anatol Polillo,
learn to sharpen a saw, then find out what it's really like to produce
a joint that can't be done by machine.
For those doing high-end restoration work, this kind of investment
could pay off (attempt to bring content close to the topic).
O'Deen
--
Old tools and old fools: a dangerous combination
http://www.concentric.net/~odeen/oldtools
Patrick Olguin
> lja...@diversify.com wrote:
> > I repeat my statement quoted above.
>
> Aw, all out of *new* insults, so you just gotta repeat your old ones? Might I
> suggest you go see Patrick - he's got an apparently unending supply. He can
> also give you some sincere apologies to use afterwards, but you'll skip those.
Ooooh looky! I get to play one of Bennett's favorite self-righteous
rant cards: You dragged my good name into a thread I'm not even
involved in!!! Waaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaah!
Let me spell it out for you: G-r-u-d-g-e.
Bennett, you're picking up my bad habits, brah. What's up with that?
Patrick Olguin
[clip]
> - if anything, the power tools let me spend more time doing what
> hand tools do best.
Probably the single best reason for anyone who prefers hand tools to
have/use such useful machines as table saws, planers and band saws.
Woodworking time is finite. If one finds a task truly tedious, and one
has the resources and space for power equipment to relieve the tedium,
then do it. No reason to suffer through your hobby.
The neat thing about this hobby is that one can keep moving the line
(you know, that one that marks the ledge on the slope) where ever you
wants, based on the project or mood. I personally only need one reason
to do something the hard way: because I feel like it.
ben...@my-dejanews.com
> P.S: Bennie, ...This has nothing to
> do with you...unless you can someday grasp any of them.
Boy, it's not like I hit a nerve with you, huh?
- Bennett Leeds
ben...@my-dejanews.com
Just say And to think Patrick was the one complaining about being picked on.
ben...@my-dejanews.com
> ben...@my-dejanews.com wrote:
> >Here's another way to look at it. Why should I spend my time doing something
> >that a machine can do as well or better?
>
> Top ten reasons for doing it the hard way.
>
Granted. I also dislike the airborne dust many of them create.
> 9. You prefer a challenge.
If you really wanted a challenge, you'd use rocks for tools like our cavemen
ancestors. Before I get flamed for this (not that this will stop that), what I
mean is what Robin pointed out earlier: it's a slippery slope. Is it OK to use
wood that was felled by chainsaw? How about wood dryed with a powered kiln? Is
it OK to use a powered wheel to sharpen your hand tools? It is OK to use a
motor powered lathe? Is it OK to use hand tools themselves built with the use
of modern, powered machines? If you do any of these, have you been any less
challenged?
I note that the most vocal neanderthals here have and use power tools. Is the
table Patrick built for his kid any less special because he resawed the wood
using an electrical bandsaw? I don't think so.
To some the challenge is not in doing something a machine can do faster or
better, but in doing those things that are still the province of human
creativity and skill.
> 8. You want to be part of a tradition.
Again, there's no hard line here. If you wanted to be part of the 17th
century tradition, for instance, you wouldn't be using a coffin-bodied
smoothing plane. OTOH, as other posters have pointed out, chances are that
those who we now consider progenitors of that tradition would be among the
first to have used the modern machines had they been available back then.
But, I can see where doing it the old way can connect you with your
woodworkering forefathers. And, this is worthwhile, if that's one of your
goals. We don't - and shouldn't - all have all the same goals.
> 7. You take particular pride of accomplishment in your work.
This is most certainly possible when one uses power tools to help with the
drugerous aspects.
> 6. You want to express "patience".
OK. Although you gotta admit that tuning a Sears tablesaw is itself an
exercise in patience. ;^)
> 5. You like the "feel" of it.
Very much OK.
> 4. You want to make something that is unique.
Power tools can certainly be utilized in the creation of something that is
unique.
> 3. You want to "commune" and unite with the wood.
Exactly why I use power tools: so I have more time to devote to the "touchy-
feely" aspects like board selection, project design, and surface preparation
for final finishing.
> 2. You wish to leave a legacy of careful craftsmanship.
Again, power tools play a big part in this for me, by letting me improve my
skills in those areas where it matters.
> And the number one reason:
> Because YOU CAN!
Like mountain climbing, eh? Well, there are lots of things I can do that I
choose not to do, because they're not pleasurable to me.
While I appreciate where Doug's coming from, of the reasons he's given, my own
personal opinion is that 4 of them are valid. The others, in my view, do not
preclude the use of power tools - you can do things an easier way and still
reach those goals.
> A piece of hand-crafted furniture may not be better to sit upon, but it(
> and it's machine made one-of-a-kind cousin) is (in my opinion) an
> expression of the triumph of its maker.
OK, given that the two pieces are otherwise indistinguishable, isn't the
triumph a bit hollow? Like the guy in the TV commercial that hand carves the
word "Aspirin" onto little white tablets, aren't there better uses for our
skill and effort?
Given the pragmatic choices most of us face, in life and woodworking, is it
not better to suffer through an hour of loud thickness planing by machine so
that one has three extra days to spend on something that will make an
apparent real difference in the final product? That difference could range
from being able to take the time to choose the right board, to being able to
use a stronger but more time consuming to make joint, to getting a few extra
coats of hand rubbed finish on, to simply being able to finish that project
before SWMBO gets mad.
Essentially, for me, power tools free up more time to spend on the things I
think are important. That doesn't mean that hand tools aren't important to me
- if anything, the power tools let me spend more time doing what hand tools
do best.
I guess I'm just lazy, huh? ;^)
- Bennett Leeds
ben...@my-dejanews.com
Opinions are mine alone.
-----== Posted via Deja News, The Leader in Internet Discussion ==-----
nick.g
> so I have more time to devote to the "touchy-
>feely" aspects like board selection, project design, and surface preparation
>for final finishing.
huh he he heh huh He said, "hand tool" huh heh hhee
Richy
> >> Michelangelo's fingerprints _are_ tool marks.
> So why do you suppose he didn't just wipe them off with a wet rag?
> Would it make the finished product better?
Are you kidding - how would I know? Do you? Are you implying he knew that
someday someone would say "wow, that's Michelangelo's fingerprint!!".
This Michelangelo example (initiated by Rev Chuck, BTW) reminds me of the
Shroud of Turin (sp). A certain cloth is a million times more valuable
because it's dirty; therefore, by your apparent logic, all cloths are more
valuable dirty, because the dirt proves somebody used them.
> But what a great surprise to find those telltale marks. IMO. Not
> sloppy joinery, not cobbled together crap. Just small pieces of evidence
> that some person spent some of their valuable time building it.
Again, it depends what that evidence is. I don't find crudeness acceptable
in high-end items, which reminds me of Roy Underhill's stuff. But I do see
your point.
> Uh huh. I didn't realise he was talking about sloppy joinery. Is
there
> a reason you brought it up? Thought no-one would notice?
Huh?? Sloppy joinery was the crux of the argument, Tad. It is you who
changed the focus to fit your own arguments.
> >Quite obviously anyone selling stuff cares. And your answer is a
> complete
> >copout. Of course your work is more valuable to you than to anyone else.
> ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
> Nice dig Richy.
Yes, I suppose it was, but it wasn't intended that way. I meant that
virtually EVERYONE'S work is more valuable to them than to anyone else. It
changes one's priorities when they have no one to please but themselves.
> I'm with Keith on this one, I'd fill my house with collectable
furniture
> if I could. As it is, I make furniture that is as close as a hack like
me
> can get.
I think I'd rather have my own stuff that most antiques, but that's fine.
> If you don't care, fine. You'll have a lot easier time finding
> furniture as well.
I guess you mean you think I don't care about quality. If so, you're as
wacky as Geoff Fieger.
> So, tell us, when you make stuff for yourself... Do you honestly
> consider retail value?
Do I consider it? Sure. Does it have much influence on me? Of course
not.
> "Hand Job -- BWAHAHAHAHAHA"
Thanks, dude!
Rich
ben...@my-dejanews.com
> Bennett, you're picking up my bad habits, brah. What's up with that?
Hey, Paddy - that's not in the script. Didn't you get revision 7B? You're
*supposed* to have said:
"Congratulations, son, your conversion to the Dark Side will soon be
complete."
And then I'm supposed to babble something about how your bad habits are now
the norm here, so don't pick on me for picking on you:
"Just look how often Larry derogatorily drags my name into things I'm not
involved in. Besides, are you admitting now that when you dragged my name in
it was because you were carrying a G-R-U-D-G-E?"
And then you're supposed to say:
"Good. Use your anger. The Emperor was right about you."
Let me know if you still can't find 7B and I'll send you my copy. But, Jeez,
let's stop this unrehearsed nonsense on Usenet, OK?
- Bennett
Tad
>someday someone would say "wow, that's Michelangelo's fingerprint!!".
Not at all.
>This Michelangelo example (initiated by Rev Chuck, BTW) reminds me of the
>Shroud of Turin (sp). A certain cloth is a million times more valuable
>because it's dirty; therefore, by your apparent logic, all cloths are
more
>valuable dirty, because the dirt proves somebody used them.
C'mon, that's a bit of a stretch.
>> Uh huh. I didn't realise he was talking about sloppy joinery. Is
there
>> a reason you brought it up? Thought no-one would notice?
>Huh?? Sloppy joinery was the crux of the argument, Tad. It is you who
It was _not_ AFAICT the crux of Chuck's argument... No, I'm not trying
to speak for him.
>changed the focus to fit your own arguments.
Changed from the original thread? Fair enough.
>>Quite obviously anyone selling stuff cares. And your answer is a
>> complete
>> >copout. Of course your work is more valuable to you than to anyone
else.
>> ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
>> Nice dig Richy.
>Yes, I suppose it was, but it wasn't intended that way. I meant that
>virtually EVERYONE'S work is more valuable to them than to anyone else.
It
>changes one's priorities when they have no one to please but themselves.
Ok, No problem, sounds like we agree.
>> I'm with Keith on this one, I'd fill my house with collectable
furniture
>> if I could. As it is, I make furniture that is as close as a hack like
me
>> can get.
>I think I'd rather have my own stuff that most antiques, but that's fine.
Antiques are pretty variable ranging from great to poor. I wouldn't
mind having more in the great category. I also wouldn't mind having more
well-made contemporary furniture... Hope that was clear.
>> If you don't care, fine. You'll have a lot easier time finding
>> furniture as well.
>I guess you mean you think I don't care about quality. If so, you're as
>wacky as Geoff Fieger.
Sorry. Not at all. "It" == "evidence of the hand of man" or something
more along that line but not as cheesy sounding.
>> "Hand Job -- BWAHAHAHAHAHA"
>Thanks, dude!
That's d00d to you, bucko! One of the best one-liners on the group in
a while though. Thanks for the laugh.
Tad
Larry Jaques
>> My normal railings on you....
>
>So, you don't deny that your behavior towards me here is totally inexcuseable.
ROTFL! Inexcusable, hell! It's downright REQUIRED that some folks keep you
in your place, son.
I tell you what, though. As I've got much better things to do, you can
rant as much as you want from now on. "Scotty, engage that twit's filter!"
Paddy, Richy, et al: Keep up the good work. That mosquito's outta my hair.
----------------------------------------------------------------
--== EAT RIGHT...KEEP FIT...DIE ANYWAY ==--
http://diversify.com/ljaques/stees.html - Schnazzy Tees online
----------------------------------------------------------------
Larry Jaques
>lja...@diversify.com wrote:
>> P.S: Bennie, ...This has nothing to
>> do with you...unless you can someday grasp any of them.
>
>Boy, it's not like I hit a nerve with you, huh?
Poor Bennett. You're the one who's so anal retentive that
you clearly can't have any fun woodworking. (Didn't some
toad insincerely speak the phrase "I feel your pain."?)
It's sad to see a guy so tied up in overanalysis that they
can't see or feel the beauty of the product they're working
on. Get well soon.
In all fairness, I'll allow one retort prior to my twit-
filtering your messages. I can no longer bear your angst
or put up with the inanity of your twelve page online
therapy sessions.
(Paddy: You ARE charging him for those sessions, aren't you?)
Go into your shops, sinners, and stain no more!
Richy
Tad <t...@worf.netins.net> wrote in article
<6qf9qf$rom$1...@ins8.netins.net>...
of my Shroud of Turin example:
> C'mon, that's a bit of a stretch.
Well, yeah, aren't argumentative examples supposed to be a stretch? I
think it says that in the FAQ
> Antiques are pretty variable ranging from great to poor.
Boy, that's for sure!! Sure seems to be a lot in the mediocre category.
I wouldn't
> mind having more in the great category. I also wouldn't mind having more
> well-made contemporary furniture... Hope that was clear.
By 'contemporary' I'm thinking you mean 'recently made', as in including
your own stuff.
> >> "Hand Job -- BWAHAHAHAHAHA"
> >Thanks, dude!
>
> That's d00d to you, bucko! One of the best one-liners on the group in
> a while though. Thanks for the laugh.
My pleasure. Sounds like we don't have anything left to argue about -
damn! : )
Rich
Michael Pierce
.
>>
>> Must you overthink and overanalyze everything?
>
>Is that it? *That* is your contribution to this thread? You quote my on-
>woodworking-topic post in its entirety just so you can include a one-line
>flame of me?
>
>And to think that just two days ago there you were, claiming to the world that
>I was carrying a grudge. Obviously, the truth is exactly the opposite.
>
>- Bennett Leeds
>ben...@my-dejanews.com
Sorry, very rarely do I not snip a post before I reply. Secondly,
I posted this response before I saw your response to my first
post. Thirdly, let me rephrase the above in a less sarcastic
manner- you give good, helpful advice, except when you get caught
up in an argument- then you become defensive and try to repeatedly
rationalize out your point of view. You seem to lose perspective
the deeper you get into the argument. Anyway, at this point I am
going to officially unbuttinsky from this matter. You can take my
advice in any manner you wish.
Michael Pierce