Runners for Cross Cut Sled - Hardwood or Aluminum?

[DerbyDad03]

As far as I can tell, the standard material for Cross Cut Sled runners is hardwood and typically 2 are used. However, I saw a couple of plans that use aluminum as the runners and even one that suggests a single miter gauge bar as the only runner.

http://www.finewoodworking.com/item/39002/build-a-super-precise-tablesaw-crosscut-sled

I think I see advantages and disadvantages of all options, but I'd like to hear your opinions.

"2 hardwood runners is the way that it's always been done" will not automatically be considered an "advantage". ;-)

[dpb]

On 02/02/2015 2:38 PM, DerbyDad03 wrote:
...

I vote against Al because it tends to gall/stick worse than steel.

Other than that I have no real strong opinion although I am partial hard
maple as the material of choice simply 'cuz it's easiest to sneak up on
the prefect fit...even the purchased steel runners are typically a
little sloppy...

--

[Swingman]

Have a few TS sleds with both hardwood (oak) and aluminum runners over
ten years old, can only say there is no practical/noticeable difference
in accuracy over time thus far, the only thing I concern myself with.

The aluminum runners to be appear to be ever so slightly more subject to
the shop's ambient temperature (looses in cold, tighter in heat) but
that can easily be adjusted out.

For me it basically boils down to need and availability.

--
eWoodShop: www.eWoodShop.com
Wood Shop: www.e-WoodShop.net
https://www.google.com/+eWoodShop
https://plus.google.com/+KarlCaillouet/posts
http://www.custommade.com/by/ewoodshop/
KarlCaillouet@ (the obvious)

[Just Wondering]

UHMW (Ultra High Molecular Weight) polymer bar stock works well.
http://www.ttrackusa.com/UHMW.htm

[Keith Nuttle]

Has any one used the miter gauge runner for sled runner. I replace of
on my Miter gauge with a longer one and still have the old one. As I
remember it did not cost that much

[-MIKE-]

I've used hardwood and the aftermarket adjustable aluminum runners
available from different tool suppliers. If you're using two runners
then a perfect fit in the slot isn't that necessary because as long as
each runner is pushing against its slot opposite of the other, the sled
runs true and stable. In other words, if they are both pushing inward
or both pushing outward against the slots, you're good.

When only one runner is used, it has to fit the slot very well and being
adjustable might be preferred, so an aluminum pre-made runner might work
better.


--

-MIKE-

"Playing is not something I do at night, it's my function in life"
--Elvin Jones (1927-2004)
--
http://mikedrums.com
mi...@mikedrumsDOT.com
---remove "DOT" ^^^^ to reply

[dpb]

On 02/02/2015 3:58 PM, Keith Nuttle wrote:
...

> Has any one used the miter gauge runner for sled runner. I replace of on
> my Miter gauge with a longer one and still have the old one. As I
> remember it did not cost that much

Actually, was thinking after the previous I should've mentioned that --
I used one w/ my original Craftsman TS but it had unique slots that
didn't fit the PM when got it so let the sled go w/ the saw...

But, they make good stock albeit the size of sled is limited by their
length so for larger sleds may be short.

--

[k...@attt.bizz]

How about UHMW or PTFE (plastic). I certainly wouldn't use (any)
metal runners on my cast saw table.

[-MIKE-]

On 2/2/15 6:35 PM, k...@attt.bizz wrote:
> I certainly wouldn't use (any)
> metal runners on my cast saw table.
>

Why?

[k...@attt.bizz]

On Mon, 02 Feb 2015 18:42:13 -0600, -MIKE- <mi...@mikedrumsDOT.com>
wrote:

>On 2/2/15 6:35 PM, k...@attt.bizz wrote:
>> I certainly wouldn't use (any)
>> metal runners on my cast saw table.
>>
>
>Why?

scratches => rust

Kinda defeats the purpose of coating the cast iron.

[-MIKE-]

1. Isn't cast iron much harder than aluminum?
2. How is one smoothly polished, soft metal going to scratch anything
let alone a much harder metal?

[whit3rd]

On Monday, February 2, 2015 at 12:38:43 PM UTC-8, DerbyDad03 wrote:
> As far as I can tell, the standard material for Cross Cut Sled runners is hardwood and typically 2 are used. However, I saw a couple of plans that use aluminum

Hardwood, waxed, works fine. My saw lives in a shed, and dissimilar
metals in contact can be troublesome (so the aluminum idea bothers me).
Rather than glue, or predrill and screw, I used POP rivets (so
that's SOME aluminum content). A POP rivet head needs very little
countersink depth, and the sled was 1/4" plywood.

[Leon]

Most the places I get rust are not in scratches, and who cares if it
does. Rust will come off very easily with simple use. If you have a
surface that is rusting you need to use the machine more. ;~)

[Leon]

For a woodworker a double bar is probably over kill. My best luck has
always been with steel bars. Second to that is the steel bar setting in
a dado to keep it straight in the bottom of the sled.

[Bob La Londe]

"DerbyDad03" <teama...@eznet.net> wrote in message
news:3ae1576a-c169-4b3d...@googlegroups.com...

Aluminum might react with the steel of the table top over time if left
unused for a while in a humid environment. Anodizing the aluminum would
virtually eliminate that. Anodizing has the advantage of creating a hard
wear resistant surface on the aluminum parts. So, the correct answer is
adult diapers. (It Depends.)

To those who might argue about anodized aluminum, there are modestly decent
life desktop size CNC mills that have anodized aluminum wear surfaces.
Strictly hobby stuff, but still.

[BenignBodger]

On 2/2/2015 4:41 PM, Just Wondering wrote:

That is what I prefer. I have a large commercial cutting board which I
stopped using in the kitchen because of the accrued nicks and cut but which
works great at providing UHMW stock in the shop. I've been cutting bits and
pieces from it for years and it isn't even half gone yet. My _unique_
Robland saw has a bizarre oddly-sized dovetail slot (along with the sliding
table of course) and no standard fixture fits it. I don't try to match the
dovetail but a well sized runner works fine.

[Leon]

On 2/3/2015 10:05 AM, Bob La Londe wrote:
> "DerbyDad03" <teama...@eznet.net> wrote in message
> news:3ae1576a-c169-4b3d...@googlegroups.com...
>> As far as I can tell, the standard material for Cross Cut Sled runners
>> is hardwood and typically 2 are used. However, I saw a couple of plans
>> that use aluminum as the runners and even one that suggests a single
>> miter gauge bar as the only runner.
>>
>> http://www.finewoodworking.com/item/39002/build-a-super-precise-tablesaw-crosscut-sled
>>
>>
>> I think I see advantages and disadvantages of all options, but I'd
>> like to hear your opinions.
>>
>> "2 hardwood runners is the way that it's always been done" will not
>> automatically be considered an "advantage". ;-)
>
>
> Aluminum might react with the steel of the table top over time if left
> unused for a while in a humid environment. Anodizing the aluminum would
> virtually eliminate that. Anodizing has the advantage of creating a
> hard wear resistant surface on the aluminum parts. So, the correct
> answer is adult diapers. (It Depends.)

You can get electrolysis between aluminum and iron with the presence of
water, a good reason to insure that the coolant in your car engine bis
kept fresh, but Kreg miter gauges are 95% aluminum and I had one sitting
on top of my cast iron TS for years on end with out any problems. The
bar was silver so I am not sure if it was anodized, the blue upper part
of the gauge was certainly anodized. I did how ever encounter problems
with the Kreg miter gauge. Primarily the aluminum guide bar should have
not been made from aluminum, it flexed very easily and on wide panel
cuts the fence was less that steady because of the guide flex. Secondly
the brass indexing pin finally seized in the aluminum one morning and I
was unable to remove it after it had set in the sunlight for a few
hours. I then switched to an Incra miter gauge with steel guide bar and
anodize aluminum fence. FWIW the longer the guide bar the better the
accuracy especially when the fence is 12" shy of touching the front of
the saw table when cutting wide panels.

[k...@attt.bizz]

On Mon, 02 Feb 2015 20:40:28 -0600, -MIKE- <mi...@mikedrumsDOT.com>

wrote:

>On 2/2/15 6:46 PM, k...@attt.bizz wrote:
>> On Mon, 02 Feb 2015 18:42:13 -0600, -MIKE- <mi...@mikedrumsDOT.com>
>> wrote:
>>
>>> On 2/2/15 6:35 PM, k...@attt.bizz wrote:
>>>> I certainly wouldn't use (any)
>>>> metal runners on my cast saw table.
>>>>
>>>
>>> Why?
>>
>> scratches => rust
>>
>> Kinda defeats the purpose of coating the cast iron.
>>
>
>1. Isn't cast iron much harder than aluminum?

Than anodized aluminum? Aluminum is certainly harder than Boeshield.

>2. How is one smoothly polished, soft metal going to scratch anything
>let alone a much harder metal?

It does. My aluminum miter gauge certainly scratches the top.

[k...@attt.bizz]

On Mon, 02 Feb 2015 21:50:15 -0600, Leon <lcb11211@swbelldotnet>
wrote:

>On 2/2/2015 6:46 PM, k...@attt.bizz wrote:
>> On Mon, 02 Feb 2015 18:42:13 -0600, -MIKE- <mi...@mikedrumsDOT.com>
>> wrote:
>>
>>> On 2/2/15 6:35 PM, k...@attt.bizz wrote:
>>>> I certainly wouldn't use (any)
>>>> metal runners on my cast saw table.
>>>>
>>>
>>> Why?
>>
>> scratches => rust
>>
>> Kinda defeats the purpose of coating the cast iron.
>>
>
>Most the places I get rust are not in scratches, and who cares if it
>does. Rust will come off very easily with simple use.

Rust goes a lot deeper than what you're going to take off with a
little wood.

>If you have a
>surface that is rusting you need to use the machine more. ;~)

Well... I haven't used it in at least three months and it'll be
another three months until I can again. :-(

[-MIKE-]

On 2/3/15 6:01 PM, k...@attt.bizz wrote:
> On Mon, 02 Feb 2015 20:40:28 -0600, -MIKE- <mi...@mikedrumsDOT.com>
> wrote:
>
>> On 2/2/15 6:46 PM, k...@attt.bizz wrote:
>>> On Mon, 02 Feb 2015 18:42:13 -0600, -MIKE- <mi...@mikedrumsDOT.com>
>>> wrote:
>>>
>>>> On 2/2/15 6:35 PM, k...@attt.bizz wrote:
>>>>> I certainly wouldn't use (any)
>>>>> metal runners on my cast saw table.
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Why?
>>>
>>> scratches => rust
>>>
>>> Kinda defeats the purpose of coating the cast iron.
>>>
>>
>> 1. Isn't cast iron much harder than aluminum?
>
> Than anodized aluminum? Aluminum is certainly harder than Boeshield.

So is wood. So is plastic. So is my fingernail.

>> 2. How is one smoothly polished, soft metal going to scratch anything
>> let alone a much harder metal?
>
> It does. My aluminum miter gauge certainly scratches the top.
>

I think you need to be a little more gentle. :-p

[k...@attt.bizz]

On Tue, 03 Feb 2015 20:23:45 -0600, -MIKE- <mi...@mikedrumsDOT.com>

wrote:

>On 2/3/15 6:01 PM, k...@attt.bizz wrote:
>> On Mon, 02 Feb 2015 20:40:28 -0600, -MIKE- <mi...@mikedrumsDOT.com>
>> wrote:
>>
>>> On 2/2/15 6:46 PM, k...@attt.bizz wrote:
>>>> On Mon, 02 Feb 2015 18:42:13 -0600, -MIKE- <mi...@mikedrumsDOT.com>
>>>> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> On 2/2/15 6:35 PM, k...@attt.bizz wrote:
>>>>>> I certainly wouldn't use (any)
>>>>>> metal runners on my cast saw table.
>>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> Why?
>>>>
>>>> scratches => rust
>>>>
>>>> Kinda defeats the purpose of coating the cast iron.
>>>>
>>>
>>> 1. Isn't cast iron much harder than aluminum?
>>
>> Than anodized aluminum? Aluminum is certainly harder than Boeshield.
>
>So is wood. So is plastic. So is my fingernail.

I doubt you'll scrape off the Boeshield with your fingernail but I try
not to drag my fingernails across the top, too. Nah, wood and plastic
might push it around some but it's not going to plow through it.

>
>>> 2. How is one smoothly polished, soft metal going to scratch anything
>>> let alone a much harder metal?
>>
>> It does. My aluminum miter gauge certainly scratches the top.
>>
>
>I think you need to be a little more gentle. :-p

I guess I could put UHMW strips on the bottom but really, the miter
gauges do scratch the surface, in multiple places.

[dadiOH]

<k...@attt.bizz> wrote in message
news:q4o2dapu8p1090l9i...@4ax.com

You have some remarkable aluminum (or wierd iron), aluminum is much softer
than iron. Here's a Moh's scale...

http://www.jewelrynotes.com/the-mohs-scale-of-hardness-for-metals-why-it-is-important/

--

dadiOH
____________________________

Winters getting colder? Tired of the rat race?
Taxes out of hand? Maybe just ready for a change?
Check it out... http://www.floridaloghouse.net

[Leon]

If yu are using Boeshield to protect your TS top you don't have near the
rust problem you might think you have.
Boeshield absolutely would did not offer enough protection for me when I
first used it 15 years ago. TopKote and its successor is the only thing
that works for me.

[Leon]

On 2/4/2015 6:07 AM, dadiOH wrote:
> <k...@attt.bizz> wrote in message
> news:q4o2dapu8p1090l9i...@4ax.com
>> On Mon, 02 Feb 2015 20:40:28 -0600, -MIKE- <mi...@mikedrumsDOT.com>
>> wrote:
>>
>> > On 2/2/15 6:46 PM, k...@attt.bizz wrote:
>> > > On Mon, 02 Feb 2015 18:42:13 -0600, -MIKE- <mi...@mikedrumsDOT.com>
>> > > wrote:
>> > >
>> > > > On 2/2/15 6:35 PM, k...@attt.bizz wrote:
>> > > > > I certainly wouldn't use (any)
>> > > > > metal runners on my cast saw table.
>> > > > >
>> > > >
>> > > > Why?
>> > >
>> > > scratches => rust
>> > >
>> > > Kinda defeats the purpose of coating the cast iron.
>> > >
>> >
>> > 1. Isn't cast iron much harder than aluminum?
>>
>> Than anodized aluminum? Aluminum is certainly harder than Boeshield.
>> > 2. How is one smoothly polished, soft metal going to scratch anything
>> > let alone a much harder metal?
>>
>> It does. My aluminum miter gauge certainly scratches the top.
>
> You have some remarkable aluminum (or wierd iron), aluminum is much
> softer than iron. Here's a Moh's scale...
>
> http://www.jewelrynotes.com/the-mohs-scale-of-hardness-for-metals-why-it-is-important/
>
>

I will say that with enough repeated passes most anything will cause a
wear pattern on cast iron. I have those all over the place running
parallel to the blade and perpendicular to the blade. Parallel marks
from the miter gauges/sleds/wood. Perpendicular marks from the fence
support pad that slides across the back of the TS top, that is the low
friction plastic stuff. Anyway the wear marks are only visible you
certainly can't feel them nor are they more susceptible to rust.

[Mike Marlow]

Leon wrote:

>
> I will say that with enough repeated passes most anything will cause a
> wear pattern on cast iron. I have those all over the place running
> parallel to the blade and perpendicular to the blade. Parallel marks
> from the miter gauges/sleds/wood. Perpendicular marks from the fence
> support pad that slides across the back of the TS top, that is the low
> friction plastic stuff. Anyway the wear marks are only visible you
> certainly can't feel them nor are they more susceptible to rust.

What so many of these comments clearly miss is that most of those
"scratches" are not in the base material itself, but in the finish of the
base material. They are scratches in the sheen (shean?), and not noteworthy
scratches in the base material. Sometimes it seems there is way too much
focus on stuff that just does not matter...

--

-Mike-
mmarlo...@windstream.net

[-MIKE-]

On 2/4/15 10:08 AM, Mike Marlow wrote:
> Sometimes it seems there is way too much
> focus on stuff that just does not matter...
>

DING! DING! DING!

[Just Wondering]

The idea that hard materials can't be scratched by softer ones reminds
me of this story:
The congregation of a small stone church in England decided that the
stone which formed the step to the front door had become too worn down
by many years of use, and would have to be replaced. Unfortunately,
there were no funds available for a replacement. Someone came up with
the bright idea that the replacement could be postponed by simply
turning the block of stone over.
When they did it, they discovered that their great-great-grandparents
had beaten them to it.

[-MIKE-]

It is said that the shoes aren't wearing down the stone, but in fact,
the stone is... or tiny pieces of it, along with all the tiny rock
fragments that are on people's shoes, already, from walking around.
When walked upon, the dirt on shoes break off tiny pieces of the rock,
pieces the size of and smaller than grains of sand. Those tiny grains
and the stuff already on shoes are then pushed across the surface of the
rock, "sanding" it away over time.

[whit3rd]

On Wednesday, February 4, 2015 at 4:07:33 AM UTC-8, dadiOH wrote:
> <k...@attt.bizz> wrote in message
> news:q4o2dapu8p1090l9i...@4ax.com

> > ... My aluminum miter gauge certainly scratches the top.

>
> You have some remarkable aluminum (or wierd iron), aluminum is much softer
> than iron. Here's a Moh's scale...
>
> http://www.jewelrynotes.com/the-mohs-scale-of-hardness-for-metals-why-it-is-important/

Anodized aluminum (aluminum oxide in a transparent form on the metal surface)
is also called corundum. Mohs scale, corundum is #9, and is quite a bit harder
than steel (4.5 or so).

[Leon]

Can you expand on that a bit, the finish of the material? I have no
sheen so to speak. Buy yes rust only matters if you let it get out of hand.

On another note, I once had a cast iron Craftsman TS. The top had
obvious mill marks and you could feel them. That surface, with an
application of TopKote, was the absolute best surface I have ever had on
any of my TS's as far as low friction is concerned. It is better if the
top is not flat like glass as this can cause more friction. MiniMax
saws pruposely grind the tops of their better equipment with similar
effects to cut down on the contact area with the wood.

[Leon]

And whether it matters or not, most of the equipment we are talking
about, that might be scratched, is cast iron, not steel. And cast iron
TS top are pretty soft.

[Electric Comet]

On Mon, 2 Feb 2015 12:38:37 -0800 (PST)

DerbyDad03 <teama...@eznet.net> wrote:

> I think I see advantages and disadvantages of all options, but I'd
> like to hear your opinions.

what happens to that sled when you start cutting angles
it's not going to be great

do tablesaws come with sleds now or is it all diy and aftermarket?
are they intended for just 90s?
what problem do they solve?

[Leon]

If you look in the right places table saws come with sliding tables.
SawStop offers one now.

I considered buying this one, but chose the SawStop.

http://www.lagunatools.com/tablesaws/tablesaw-tssws#

[k...@attt.bizz]

On Wed, 04 Feb 2015 09:55:56 -0600, Leon <lcb11211@swbelldotnet>
wrote:

Rust *is* a problem. I used to have the saw in the garage when I
lived in Alabama. I now have a basement but it's still very humid. I
keep one of the magnetic covers on the saw, and a beach towel on top
of that.

I've been thinking of trying TopKote (or whatever it's called these
days) and even bought a can but it doesn't say anything about
preventing rust. Did they change the formula? I really don't like
Boeshield but I like rust a lot less.

[Leon]

Way back when, when Topcote was originally made by Empire, I bought it
to only slick up my TS Top, that is what it was made for. It was great
for that but after about 6 months I noticed that I was no longer having
an issue with rust.
You need to put on a lot the first time, a few coats and the more you
use it the better it protects. It is not guaranteed to prevent rust but
as a bonus it works better for me than any thing else I have tried.

[Leon]

On 2/4/2015 7:04 PM, Leon wrote:

>> of that.
>>
>> I've been thinking of trying TopKote (or whatever it's called these
>> days) and even bought a can but it doesn't say anything about
>> preventing rust. Did they change the formula? I really don't like
>> Boeshield but I like rust a lot less.
>>
>
> Way back when, when Topcote was originally made by Empire, I bought it
> to only slick up my TS Top, that is what it was made for. It was great
> for that but after about 6 months I noticed that I was no longer having
> an issue with rust.
> You need to put on a lot the first time, a few coats and the more you
> use it the better it protects. It is not guaranteed to prevent rust but
> as a bonus it works better for me than any thing else I have tried.
>
>
>
>

This place is the leas expensive that I have found for TopCote/GlideCote.

http://www.cabinethardware.com/SearchResults.asp?Search=topcote

[-MIKE-]

On 2/4/15 5:22 PM, Electric Comet wrote:
> On Mon, 2 Feb 2015 12:38:37 -0800 (PST) DerbyDad03
> <teama...@eznet.net> wrote:
>
>> I think I see advantages and disadvantages of all options, but I'd
>> like to hear your opinions.
>
> what happens to that sled when you start cutting angles it's not
> going to be great
>

Which angles? Miter or bevel? I've cut both using mine and they are
extremely accurate and repeatable.
I put a miter gauge on mine with an adjustable stop for repeated cuts.
http://youtu.be/DPg5xdeyCQk

> do tablesaws come with sleds now or is it all diy and aftermarket?
> are they intended for just 90s? what problem do they solve?
>

I guess if there's a problem it's wanting to cut wider boards or longer
panels with extreme accuracy and safety. Most miter gauges are not very
wide and while you can add a longer fence to them, they are not good for
panels because their runners are so short.

They are quick and cheap to make, too, so it's really a no-brainer
decision. Once you have one and see how accurate and versatile they
are, you wonder why you didn't build it sooner.

I have a sacrificial bottom on mine that repositions to close the gap
created by the saw kerf of different blades. This creates a
zero-clearance insert affect that eliminates tear-out yielding a very
clean cut.

[DerbyDad03]

On Monday, February 2, 2015 at 3:38:43 PM UTC-5, DerbyDad03 wrote:
> As far as I can tell, the standard material for Cross Cut Sled runners is hardwood and typically 2 are used. However, I saw a couple of plans that use aluminum as the runners and even one that suggests a single miter gauge bar as the only runner.
>
> http://www.finewoodworking.com/item/39002/build-a-super-precise-tablesaw-crosscut-sled
>

> I think I see advantages and disadvantages of all options, but I'd like to hear your opinions.
>

> "2 hardwood runners is the way that it's always been done" will not automatically be considered an "advantage". ;-)

I decided to go with maple. I cut the runners tonight, the rest of the sled will have to wait until tomorrow.

[k...@attt.bizz]

On Wed, 04 Feb 2015 19:20:45 -0600, Leon <lcb11211@swbelldotnet>
wrote:

Wow! Free shipping, too. I've seen prices like that but they don't
tell you that they charge $15-$20 shipping and handling.

[Leon]

Fortunately they are a local place for me that I have been doing
business with for 20+ years. I would suspect their web site not
determining a correct shipping price.... Seems if there were free
shipping there would not be an input location for destination.
This store is top notch with very helpful people and they typically beat
the pants off of the competition prices.

Either way the average price, elsewhere, for a can is around $18-19.

[DerbyDad03]

I can second Leon's opinion of cabinethardware.com's customer service.

Based on Leon's recommendation, I purchased some drawer slides from them. The website listed the slides as Full Extension, Soft Close. I ordered four 22" slides and one 12" slide. I found that the 12" slide was not full extension. When I called, the CSR did some research and found that the 12" in that line was indeed *not* Full Extension, nor were 14" of the same model. However, the same manufacturer had another (more expensive) line of slides and the 14" in that line was Full Extension. He offered to send me a 14" Full Extension slide, no charge of course, which I accepted.

I checked the website a few hours later and it had already been updated to show that the particular 12" and 14" slides in the line that I originally bought were 3/4 Extension.

It will take a few adjustments to fit the 14" slide in where I was going to put the 12", but it will fit. Overall, I was extremely satisfied with my dealings with cabinethardware.com's customer service department.

[Leon]

Most all of the people that you deal directly with have been there for
years and it is an old family owned business. I really like dealing
with Barbara.

[Mike Marlow]

Leon wrote:

>
> Can you expand on that a bit, the finish of the material? I have no
> sheen so to speak. Buy yes rust only matters if you let it get out
> of hand.

Sure - most surfaces like a table saw top have some degree of a polished
surface. It may be flat or it may have milling but it's often (or maybe
usually...) polished to some degree. Softer materials can "scratch" that
polished finish - scratch the burnished surface, I guess. Polish to a
mirror finish and watch how something as soft as a rag can put those tiny
scratches in that mirror finish.

--

-Mike-
mmarlo...@windstream.net

[Electric Comet]

On Wed, 04 Feb 2015 20:11:40 -0600
-MIKE- <mi...@mikedrumsDOT.com> wrote:

> Which angles? Miter or bevel? I've cut both using mine and they are
> extremely accurate and repeatable.

Either, don't the cuts fill up with dust and don't they weaken the sled?

[Electric Comet]

On Wed, 04 Feb 2015 20:11:40 -0600
-MIKE- <mi...@mikedrumsDOT.com> wrote:

> I have a sacrificial bottom on mine that repositions to close the gap
> created by the saw kerf of different blades. This creates a
> zero-clearance insert affect that eliminates tear-out yielding a very
> clean cut.

This answers my other post. I might try one when I find time

[Leon]

Until I got to considering and buying a better TS than my old iron top
Craftsman I was not aware that manufacturers provided slick polished top
surfaces. I recall looking a the old PM64~66 table saws and still
recall the almost mirror finish on the tops. I finally bought a Jet
cabinet saw and it had a polished top but not to the degree of the
Powermatics. Boy was I disappointed with the "effects" of having a
ridgless and polished top. While smooth would seem to be a show of
higher quality machining, it does not translate well as far as providing
a surface with less friction. With TopCote on my old Craftsman you
could toss a small piece of oak to the TS top from 2 feet away and the
piece would slide off the back side of the table. With these polished
top saws I have not seen anything come close to the slipperiness as the
old Craftsman top. I think a polished top is more of a sales gimmick.

If you look at the better European machines most do not have a polished top.


Click on the close up of the blade and notice the table surface behind
the blade.

http://www.minimax-usa.com/index.php?page=shop.product_details&flypage=flypage_bs.tpl&product_id=43&category_id=2&option=com_virtuemart&Itemid=35


Click the close up of the jointer bed surface

http://www.minimax-usa.com/index.php?page=shop.product_details&flypage=flypage_bs.tpl&product_id=47&category_id=4&option=com_virtuemart&Itemid=35


Click on the close up of the second and third pictures

http://www.lagunatools.com/combo/combo-nx31#

[Leon]

Square or angle cuts are still using the same path, you simply place the
work in the sled at an angle. Some sleds have fences that work similar
to one found on a miter gauge. These sleds typically do not work on
both sides of the blade.

This is an excellent sled. I have had both the left and right side
sleds for 15 years.

http://in-lineindustries.com/products/the-original-dubby/

[-MIKE-]

I don't know the science behind it but it's like when you go to pick up
one plate from a pile of stacked plates and even though you only grab
one plate, the one beneath it comes up with it. There's some sort of
suction that happens when two very smooth and very flat surfaces are
close together.

When I have a section of smooth plywood sitting on my melamine out-feed
table, it's difficult to lift it straight up and off until that suction
"breaks."

[-MIKE-]

(I saw your reply to the other post.)
Also keep in mind that there is a front and back solid piece of wood
bridging the two sides of the sled. The saw blade doesn't cut through
these solid pieces, no matter the angle or height of the blade.
Something to keep in mind when making yours-- design and build it so
those pieces are quite a bit higher than the blade at it's highest
setting.

That's for a double sides sled. There are single sides designs out
there, which have much shorter fences because they aren't bridging the
saw blade.

[DerbyDad03]

On Thursday, February 5, 2015 at 12:22:40 PM UTC-5, Leon wrote:



...Major Snippage Occurred...

> With TopCote on my old Craftsman you
> could toss a small piece of oak to the TS top from 2 feet away and the
> piece would slide off the back side of the table. With these polished
> top saws I have not seen anything come close to the slipperiness as the
> old Craftsman top.

Alleluia! Now I can finally stop trying to shine up my old Craftsman TS top. It's dull, grey, milled surface is working just fine. I just always thought it was supposed to *look* better. Thanks!

[Mike Marlow]

Leon wrote:

> Until I got to considering and buying a better TS than my old iron top
> Craftsman I was not aware that manufacturers provided slick polished
> top surfaces. I recall looking a the old PM64~66 table saws and still
> recall the almost mirror finish on the tops. I finally bought a Jet
> cabinet saw and it had a polished top but not to the degree of the
> Powermatics. Boy was I disappointed with the "effects" of having a
> ridgless and polished top. While smooth would seem to be a show of
> higher quality machining, it does not translate well as far as
> providing a surface with less friction. With TopCote on my old Craftsman
> you
> could toss a small piece of oak to the TS top from 2 feet away and the
> piece would slide off the back side of the table. With these polished
> top saws I have not seen anything come close to the slipperiness as
> the old Craftsman top. I think a polished top is more of a sales gimmick.
>

You're right - dead flat and polished does not create a more slipery
surface. A milled surface with grooves is much better - as long as it's
milled flat at the high point of those grooves, or ridges.

--

-Mike-
mmarlo...@windstream.net

[Max]

On 2/5/2015 10:45 AM, -MIKE- wrote:

> When I have a section of smooth plywood sitting on my melamine out-feed
> table, it's difficult to lift it straight up and off until that suction
> "breaks."
>

Well, damn! That sucks.

[Leon]

Yeah, there are thousands of tiny high points that help prevent a vacuum
and less contact surface, so less friction.

[Leon]

No kidding, if your Craftsman is an iron top one, those ugly mill marks
are a blessing in disguise. I wish my SawStop and old Jet has those
same grind marks..

[Electric Comet]

On Thu, 05 Feb 2015 11:50:06 -0600
-MIKE- <mi...@mikedrumsDOT.com> wrote:

> (I saw your reply to the other post.)
> Also keep in mind that there is a front and back solid piece of wood
> bridging the two sides of the sled. The saw blade doesn't cut through
> these solid pieces, no matter the angle or height of the blade.
> Something to keep in mind when making yours-- design and build it so
> those pieces are quite a bit higher than the blade at it's highest
> setting.

I did notice that because I made a fence on my miter that was not
but sometimes i like learning the hard way but not always

[Lew Hodgett]

Leon wrote:

> No kidding, if your Craftsman is an iron top one, those ugly mill
> marks are a blessing in disguise. I wish my SawStop and old Jet has
> those same grind marks..

----------------------------------------------------------------
Simple to do IF you have a Blanchard grinder which I'm not sure if
it's even made anymore.

Haven't seen one in at least 20 years.

Lew

[k...@attt.bizz]

On Wed, 04 Feb 2015 22:41:59 -0600, Leon <lcb11211@swbelldotnet>

Perhaps, but the location is also used to calculate tax. I went
through the order up to where I had to pull the trigger, just to see
what their shipping charges were. Of course there could be a mistake
but it showed no shipping charges.

>Either way the average price, elsewhere, for a can is around $18-19.

Sure, but shipping can *easily* eat that up. Amazon has some great
prices, too, but the shipping charges can absolutely kill ya'. ;-)

[Brewster]

On 2/2/15, 2:09 PM, dpb wrote:
> On 02/02/2015 2:38 PM, DerbyDad03 wrote:
> ...
>
> I vote against Al because it tends to gall/stick worse than steel.
>
> Other than that I have no real strong opinion although I am partial hard
> maple as the material of choice simply 'cuz it's easiest to sneak up on
> the prefect fit...even the purchased steel runners are typically a
> little sloppy...
>
> --


'sneak up' is the key here.

I've read (and it's true for my tablesaw) that Delta slots are a tad
over 3/4". This makes using a piece of 3/4" Aluminum bar not so good
unless I use both miter slots and shift the bars together (or apart) to
rub on a single edge. Every aftermarket miter slot dodad I have gives me
grief. The bulldog featherboard works great, but I have to tighten the
snot out of it to get the expanding wedge to grip the miter slot tightly.

Using wood lets you get a perfect fit.

-BR


--- news://freenews.netfront.net/ - complaints: ne...@netfront.net ---

[k...@attt.bizz]

Incra (and others) make adjustable miter bars to solve this problem.
http://www.rockler.com/incrareg-miter-slider-bars

[-MIKE-]

Those work very well for most applications.
But damn if they don't scratch the hell out of everything! :-p

Haha! Seriously though, that's a great product.

[k...@attt.bizz]

On Sat, 07 Feb 2015 12:34:39 -0600, -MIKE- <mi...@mikedrumsDOT.com>
wrote:

>On 2/7/15 11:24 AM, k...@attt.bizz wrote:
>> On Sat, 07 Feb 2015 07:55:27 -0700, Brewster <b...@spambegon.net> wrote:
>>
>>> On 2/2/15, 2:09 PM, dpb wrote:
>>>> On 02/02/2015 2:38 PM, DerbyDad03 wrote:
>>>> ...
>>>>
>>>> I vote against Al because it tends to gall/stick worse than steel.
>>>>
>>>> Other than that I have no real strong opinion although I am partial hard
>>>> maple as the material of choice simply 'cuz it's easiest to sneak up on
>>>> the prefect fit...even the purchased steel runners are typically a
>>>> little sloppy...
>>>>
>>>> --
>>>
>>>
>>> 'sneak up' is the key here.
>>>
>>> I've read (and it's true for my tablesaw) that Delta slots are a tad
>>> over 3/4". This makes using a piece of 3/4" Aluminum bar not so good
>>> unless I use both miter slots and shift the bars together (or apart) to
>>> rub on a single edge. Every aftermarket miter slot dodad I have gives me
>>> grief. The bulldog featherboard works great, but I have to tighten the
>>> snot out of it to get the expanding wedge to grip the miter slot tightly.
>>>
>>> Using wood lets you get a perfect fit.
>>
>> Incra (and others) make adjustable miter bars to solve this problem.
>> http://www.rockler.com/incrareg-miter-slider-bars
>>
>
>Those work very well for most applications.
>But damn if they don't scratch the hell out of everything! :-p

;-)

Well, I don't slide it across the top. They're supposed to be in the
miter slot.

>Haha! Seriously though, that's a great product.

I haven't actually used them, other than on my 1000HD.

[Dr. Deb]

I would use two hardwood runners instead of a single runner of either. Why, because the two runners gives greater accuracy and the hardwood runners are much easier to replace and have a similar life service time as the aluminum ones.

That being said, it all depends on the "hardwood" chosen. For me it would be either jatoba or jarrah, though ipe is certainly a good choice.

Deb

[Brewster]

On 2/7/15, 10:24 AM, k...@attt.bizz wrote:

>
> Incra (and others) make adjustable miter bars to solve this problem.
> http://www.rockler.com/incrareg-miter-slider-bars
>

I have an Incra miter. This miter uses nylon 'washers' that expand
outwards with a screw. In theory it works fine, but on my table saw they
are expanded to the limit and tend to wear quickly. The original Delta
miter bar has a perfect fit, but the bar is too short to transfer it
over to my Incra. I can't really see how the bar sold by Rockler
adjusts, I assume it also expands where the slots are. A better solution
but with only two points of adjustment there would be issues when the
bar has only one of the points in the slot, such as when mitering a wide
board.

I solved the problem by drilling a bunch of threaded holes through the
side of the Incra miter bar and installing set screws with the spring
loaded ball bearing tips (problem solved). Being that the OEM Delta bar
has a great fit, the sizes seem to be standard within a manufacture (my
old Craftsman saw had slots narrower than 3/4"). It would be nice to
just be able to buy a miter with a manufacture-specific bar.

[k...@attt.bizz]

On Sun, 08 Feb 2015 08:45:09 -0700, Brewster <b...@spambegon.net> wrote:

>On 2/7/15, 10:24 AM, k...@attt.bizz wrote:
>
>>
>> Incra (and others) make adjustable miter bars to solve this problem.
>> http://www.rockler.com/incrareg-miter-slider-bars
>>
>
>I have an Incra miter. This miter uses nylon 'washers' that expand
>outwards with a screw. In theory it works fine, but on my table saw they
>are expanded to the limit and tend to wear quickly. The original Delta
>miter bar has a perfect fit, but the bar is too short to transfer it
>over to my Incra. I can't really see how the bar sold by Rockler
>adjusts, I assume it also expands where the slots are. A better solution
>but with only two points of adjustment there would be issues when the
>bar has only one of the points in the slot, such as when mitering a wide
>board.

What saw? My '09 Unisaur has a .750" (as close as I can measure it)
miter bar. The Incra and JessEm bars are exactly the same.

>I solved the problem by drilling a bunch of threaded holes through the
>side of the Incra miter bar and installing set screws with the spring
>loaded ball bearing tips (problem solved). Being that the OEM Delta bar
>has a great fit, the sizes seem to be standard within a manufacture (my
>old Craftsman saw had slots narrower than 3/4"). It would be nice to
>just be able to buy a miter with a manufacture-specific bar.

Nice idea!

[Brewster]

On 2/8/15, 5:01 PM, k...@attt.bizz wrote:
> On Sun, 08 Feb 2015 08:45:09 -0700, Brewster <b...@spambegon.net> wrote:
>
>> On 2/7/15, 10:24 AM, k...@attt.bizz wrote:
>>
>>>
>>> Incra (and others) make adjustable miter bars to solve this problem.
>>> http://www.rockler.com/incrareg-miter-slider-bars
>>>
>>
>> I have an Incra miter. This miter uses nylon 'washers' that expand
>> outwards with a screw. In theory it works fine, but on my table saw they
>> are expanded to the limit and tend to wear quickly. The original Delta
>> miter bar has a perfect fit, but the bar is too short to transfer it
>> over to my Incra. I can't really see how the bar sold by Rockler
>> adjusts, I assume it also expands where the slots are. A better solution
>> but with only two points of adjustment there would be issues when the
>> bar has only one of the points in the slot, such as when mitering a wide
>> board.
>
> What saw? My '09 Unisaur has a .750" (as close as I can measure it)
> miter bar. The Incra and JessEm bars are exactly the same.

Unisaur, 2002 thereabouts (Platinum 75th Ed.), .758"
My Incara bar is .728".

I have some of the blue anodized Rockler miter bar left over from my
router table. It measures .748" and is a bit too wobbly on the table saw.

[k...@attt.bizz]

On Mon, 09 Feb 2015 10:52:02 -0700, Brewster <b...@spambegon.net> wrote:

>On 2/8/15, 5:01 PM, k...@attt.bizz wrote:
>> On Sun, 08 Feb 2015 08:45:09 -0700, Brewster <b...@spambegon.net> wrote:
>>
>>> On 2/7/15, 10:24 AM, k...@attt.bizz wrote:
>>>
>>>>
>>>> Incra (and others) make adjustable miter bars to solve this problem.
>>>> http://www.rockler.com/incrareg-miter-slider-bars
>>>>
>>>
>>> I have an Incra miter. This miter uses nylon 'washers' that expand
>>> outwards with a screw. In theory it works fine, but on my table saw they
>>> are expanded to the limit and tend to wear quickly. The original Delta
>>> miter bar has a perfect fit, but the bar is too short to transfer it
>>> over to my Incra. I can't really see how the bar sold by Rockler
>>> adjusts, I assume it also expands where the slots are. A better solution
>>> but with only two points of adjustment there would be issues when the
>>> bar has only one of the points in the slot, such as when mitering a wide
>>> board.
>>
>> What saw? My '09 Unisaur has a .750" (as close as I can measure it)
>> miter bar. The Incra and JessEm bars are exactly the same.
>
>Unisaur, 2002 thereabouts (Platinum 75th Ed.), .758"
>My Incara bar is .728".

Seems the Unisaur isn't that far oversized, rather the Incra is *way*
too small and probably defective. I'd ask Incra what its dimension
should be. Maybe they'll send a replacement.