Storm Brewing at FWW
brian_...@yahoo.com
tried-and-true brand varnish oil. The latest issue of FWW rated the
same as easily the WORST of all wipe on finishes tested. Suprisingly,
Minwax wipe on poly was judged the best....
George
<brian_...@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:1119125436....@z14g2000cwz.googlegroups.com...
Given the criteria, of course. By different criteria, other results.
David
Minwhacks product that I like, but then again I haven't used EVERY one
of them...just their stains and poly. Their poly doesn't seem to be all
that tough, and the stains take waay too long to dry and stink worse
than other stains. I'm curious to see what Wreckers have to say about
the results of that article.
Is it possible the author got a bad batch of T&T?
Dave
Leon
"David" <Da...@invalid.com> wrote in message
news:CLOdnRORVuV...@comcast.com...
>I just read that piece an hour ago. Personally, I've not used a Minwhacks
>product that I like, but then again I haven't used EVERY one of them...just
>their stains and poly. Their poly doesn't seem to be all that tough, and
>the stains take waay too long to dry and stink worse than other stains.
>I'm curious to see what Wreckers have to say about the results of that
>article.
>
> Is it possible the author got a bad batch of T&T?
Sounds more like they got the results samples reversed.
loutent
Just got my issue today.
I have been using/recommending this Minwax
product to friends & relatives for several years.
I have never heard any regrets/disappointments.
My only gripe with the article is the price they
quote. Around here, it's more like $5.99 (US)/pint,
not per quart. Just bought 2 quarts yesterday at that
price.
I have not tried any of the other products tested since
I was pretty satisfied with what I was getting.
Lou
In article <1119125436....@z14g2000cwz.googlegroups.com>,
CW
"Leon" <removespa...@swbell.net> wrote in message
news:gc2te.2850$ks4....@newssvr12.news.prodigy.com...
More likely, Minwax paid more.
>
>
Larry Jaques
spake:
If it weren't for Waterlox coming in at the #2 spot, I'd have totally
discounted the entire test. <g>
Wipe-on poly is the least obnoxious of the poly finishes since
it takes a lot of coats to get it thick enough to resemble Saran
Wrap. It's an oil-based varnish with less poly. But MinWhacked?
Amazing!
I wish he had provided pictures of the actual unfinished and finished
squares which would have shown that while Waterlox is one of the
darker finishes, it leaves white wood very white because it doesn't go
on thick. The difference in darkening (looking through 2" of finish
vs. 3 or 4 thin, hand-rubbed coats) is WAAAY different.
And anyone who has ever put on 4 (or 6 or a dozen) coats of Watco
Natural knows that it is by NO means a flat finish. I degloss to a
satin finish using 0000 steel wool and lemon oil.
Drying finish on glass is not the same as drying via absorption by the
wood it finishes. Some of the 3-hour results should have been dry in
under half an hour, though not enough to keep adding coats.
Some of those were wipe-on/sit/wipe-off finishes while others were
wipe-on-and-let-dry, but he stated only that he wiped the finishes on
and off.
The waterstain test wasn't exactly scientific. What bothers me about
it is that the poly finishes (which, being half plastic, are all the
most waterproof) came out differently. General's double whammy got a
Fair, Watco got a Poor, Woodcraft came out Good, & both MinWhacked's
wipe-on and brushable got Excellent. WTF,O?
Sorry, Mr. Minick. I don't agree the results you got and I wish your
editors had made you standardize the tests prior to them publishing
your article.
--------------------------------------------
-- I'm in touch with my Inner Curmudgeon. --
http://diversify.com Comprehensive Website Development
============================================================
Duane Bozarth
>
> I just read that piece an hour ago. Personally, I've not used a
> Minwhacks product that I like, but then again I haven't used EVERY one
> of them...just their stains and poly. Their poly doesn't seem to be all
> that tough, and the stains take waay too long to dry and stink worse
> than other stains. I'm curious to see what Wreckers have to say about
> the results of that article.
Don't see/smell much difference in Minwax oil stains vs others...all oil
takes long enough that overnite is usual, so never noticed any
significant time issue, either. Have used the Antique Oil for 30 yrs or
more w/ excellent satisfaction.
Never use poly's of any variety so no data there...
AAvK
I 'd bet they were fat paid to say so. It is something I suspect about
magazines and big time movie critics.
--
Alex - newbie_neander in woodworking
cravdraa_at-yahoo_dot-com
not my site: http://www.e-sword.net/
Patriarch
>
>>A few years ago, Cris Becksvoort did a peice on his favorite finish,
>> tried-and-true brand varnish oil. The latest issue of FWW rated the
>> same as easily the WORST of all wipe on finishes tested. Suprisingly,
>> Minwax wipe on poly was judged the best....
>>
>
> I 'd bet they were fat paid to say so. It is something I suspect about
> magazines and big time movie critics.
>
Chris Minick and Chris Becksvoort are two woodworkers with very different
styles. Without claiming or suspecting anything less than ethical, honest
behavior, I would expect that they would come to differing conclusions on
finishes, joinery, methods and procedures, even marketing and employees.
There's room for both types. And more.
If Minwax makes such unmitigated crap, how does it continue to sell and
prosper in the marketplace?
Patriarch
James "Cubby" Culbertson
I'm missing something but I found
the products to be pretty poor. It washed out the grain and did take
forever to dry. I've still got the small cans of the stuff if
anyone want's 'em. I'm pretty partial to Waterlox now.
Cheers,
cc
<brian_...@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:1119125436....@z14g2000cwz.googlegroups.com...
Leon
"CW" <cma...@earthlink.net> wrote in message
news:0_3te.5930$hK3....@newsread3.news.pas.earthlink.net...
>>
>> Sounds more like they got the results samples reversed.
>
> More likely, Minwax paid more.
Like I said, it sounds like they got the results samples reversed. LOL..
Leon
"Patriarch" <gma...@nospam.comcast.dot.net> wrote in message
news:Xns9679EAD43B506pa...@216.196.97.136...
>
> If Minwax makes such unmitigated crap, how does it continue to sell and
> prosper in the marketplace?
I keep wondering that same thing about a lot of products. Typically the
product that gets the most advertising gets the most sales "regardless" of
quality. Take Wagner products for example.
There are millions more first time buyers than repeat buyers of Minwax
products. Their products are mostly sold at DIY stores like the borgs.
More often you find the better products at stores that cater to wood
workers.
Larry Jaques
<gma...@nospam.comcast.dot.net> spake:
>"AAvK" <ah...@notquite.net> wrote in news:Qq7te.1611$gt5.1104@fed1read02:
>
>>
>>>A few years ago, Cris Becksvoort did a peice on his favorite finish,
>>> tried-and-true brand varnish oil. The latest issue of FWW rated the
>>> same as easily the WORST of all wipe on finishes tested. Suprisingly,
>>> Minwax wipe on poly was judged the best....
>>>
>>
>> I 'd bet they were fat paid to say so. It is something I suspect about
>> magazines and big time movie critics.
>>
>
>Chris Minick and Chris Becksvoort are two woodworkers with very different
>styles. Without claiming or suspecting anything less than ethical, honest
>behavior, I would expect that they would come to differing conclusions on
>finishes, joinery, methods and procedures, even marketing and employees.
>
>There's room for both types. And more.
True.
>If Minwax makes such unmitigated crap, how does it continue to sell and
>prosper in the marketplace?
You're kidding, right? Millions of pet rocks were sold, Chevy still
sells a few cars, Mickey D's is still afloat, and Thompson's Water
Seal continues to sell. Tickle Me Elmo caused mass hysteria/riots and
people still vote for Repugnicans and Damocrits, despite many of them
ending up in prison or court. Shrub won a second term with which to
thoroughly trash this otherwise wonderful country of ours. <sigh>
It's a combination of a massive marketing campaign along with the
massive gullibility of a public who doesn't research their purchases.
<mega sigh>
AAvK
> You're kidding, right? Millions of pet rocks were sold, Chevy still
> sells a few cars, Mickey D's is still afloat, and Thompson's Water
> Seal continues to sell. Tickle Me Elmo caused mass hysteria/riots and
> people still vote for Repugnicans and Damocrits, despite many of them
> ending up in prison or court. Shrub won a second term with which to
> thoroughly trash this otherwise wonderful country of ours. <sigh>
>
> It's a combination of a massive marketing campaign along with the
> massive gullibility of a public who doesn't research their purchases.
> <mega sigh>
>
>
> MARKETING < all of which is massively vital to the massive corporations.
Including massive movie companies and massive magazines. I don't doubt it
for one massive 2nd. One of my massive principles, en-mass, is never support
the massive giants, including massive BORGS, as much as is massively possible
of course... it all means massive wealth from massive amounts of shoddy
products from massive factory production. Who cares if you know you can buy
a massively superior product from a small company that massively cares?
I need to learn more about what is out there in the obscure, word-of-mouth
market.
Minwax spar varnish massively SUCKS! Takes a century to dry on weak,
then it sands right off with no effort.
So does Verithane spray diamond hard finish, peels right off of wood treated
with BLO like it was soft plastic. What do they care as long as they hog up
the market with as much adverts as possible?
Have a massive day, I hope I do. Just bought tickets to see Robert Plant. Massive!
David
the godawful stench and the lengthy time it takes for the stain to dry
enough to apply the topcoats.
Dave
Ba r r y wrote:
> On Sun, 19 Jun 2005 01:05:30 -0500, Patriarch
> <gma...@nospam.comcast.dot.net> wrote:
>
>
>
>>Chris Minick and Chris Becksvoort are two woodworkers with very different
>>styles. Without claiming or suspecting anything less than ethical, honest
>>behavior, I would expect that they would come to differing conclusions on
>>finishes, joinery, methods and procedures, even marketing and employees.
>
>
> And that's just two people.
>
> In the last year or so, there have been other FWW articles on how to
> rub out a varnish finish. One writer referred Pratt & Lambert
> phenolic varnishes, the other used Minwax Polyurethane.
>
> On more occasions than I can count, I have used a product disparaged
> here or by someone I knew, followed a well-known writer's step-by-step
> procedures, and gotten excellent results. Obviously, this dosen't
> make sense if you're not after the finished look the author is
> demonstrating. <G>
>
> I've seen nicely done finishes with MinWax, and I've seen glopped on
> Waterlox, along with plenty of the opposite.
>
> My personal beef with some of the cheaper home center brands of
> finishing products is consistency from can to can.
>
>
Andy Dingley
>A few years ago, Cris Becksvoort did a peice on his favorite finish,
>tried-and-true brand varnish oil.
Preview:
http://www.taunton.com/finewoodworking/pages/fw_178_032.asp
Some past thoughts on varnish by Chris Minick
http://www.taunton.com/finewoodworking/pages/w00063.asp
From what I've seen, Chris Minick likes poly. So if you want your work
to look like his, you know what to use. If you want it to look like
Chris Becksvoort, then likewise.
But I ain't growing no Michael Eavis "Which way up is my head" beard for
no-one!
HMFIC-1369
word PETROCKS! People will buy anything! They just couldn't improve on their
product line......................
"Patriarch" <gma...@nospam.comcast.dot.net> wrote in message
news:Xns9679EAD43B506pa...@216.196.97.136...
nailsh...@aol.com
results of a test, then it is obvious that those who performed the test
are idiots at the least, and most probably paid liars on the payroll of
some shadowy anti woodworking organization funded by big business.
I am sure that all have posted here know the dangers of using a product
so pedestrian that it is readily available across the US. Much better
to use some lesser known (just well known enough to be recognized by
the others "in the know") finish that you have to order or is sold only
at a couple of upscale places.
I have found that the differences in finish, especially failures in
finish are more likely due to applicator inexperience or careless
stupidity than the failure of the finish itself.
Only after having a full time painter/finisher on my payroll for
several years did I understand how many circumstances come into play to
put a good finish down. As with tools, the finish products >when used
properly< will far outperform the applicator.
Robert
Leon
<nailsh...@aol.com> wrote in message
news:1119248136.4...@g43g2000cwa.googlegroups.com...
>
> Only after having a full time painter/finisher on my payroll for
> several years did I understand how many circumstances come into play to
> put a good finish down. As with tools, the finish products >when used
> properly< will far outperform the applicator.
>
> Robert
>
Absolutely correct. However a product that requires lots of steps and
takes longer to apply and cure as opposed to one that is a simple 2 or 3
step process and applies and cures in a short period of time with the same
end results tends to be inferior by comparison. Time is money.
Duane Bozarth
If I recollect also, Chris is a chemist by training and his reviews tend
to concentrate on such issues more than pure aesthetics by which many
others judge more heavily. I got the new issue yesterday and looked at
it quite briefly--that glance reinforces my previous thinking---
Andy Dingley
<dpbo...@swko.dot.net> wrote:
> Chris is a chemist by training and his reviews tend
>to concentrate on such issues more than pure aesthetics
Well that explains a lot. I has a chemist visiting this weekend.
Despite knowing more than is sane about the chemistry of alkanet root
mordants or turpentine pyrolysis, he just paints _everything_ with black
poly.
Patriarch
news:EOzte.156$5w3...@newssvr11.news.prodigy.com:
Amen. And Leon's comment goes to the tendency of a fellow named Murphy to
be your partner, whether you want him to be or not.
Patriarch
bri...@all.costs
>I think the literati here all know the score. If they don't like the
>results of a test, then it is obvious that those who performed the test
>are idiots at the least, and most probably paid liars on the payroll of
>some shadowy anti woodworking organization funded by big business.
there is some of that at play here. there is also some of the other-
the magazine covering it's own economic ass...
>
>I am sure that all have posted here know the dangers of using a product
>so pedestrian that it is readily available across the US. Much better
>to use some lesser known (just well known enough to be recognized by
>the others "in the know") finish that you have to order or is sold only
>at a couple of upscale places.
you realize of course that you have just placed yourself in the "in
the know anti in the know" group....
>
>I have found that the differences in finish, especially failures in
>finish are more likely due to applicator inexperience or careless
>stupidity than the failure of the finish itself.
very true
>
>Only after having a full time painter/finisher on my payroll for
>several years did I understand how many circumstances come into play to
>put a good finish down. As with tools, the finish products >when used
>properly< will far outperform the applicator.
ayup. but minwax poly will still look like cheap poly in the hands of
a pro....
>
>Robert
Tom Watson
If you think that we are having trouble understanding the results, you
should visit the FWW website and check out the discussions that are
going on there.
It is quite enlightening.
Tom Watson - WoodDorker
tjwatson1ATcomcastDOTnet (email)
http://home.comcast.net/~tjwatson1/ (website)
Duane Bozarth
>
> On 18 Jun 2005 13:10:36 -0700, brian_...@yahoo.com wrote:
>
> >A few years ago, Cris Becksvoort did a peice on his favorite finish,
> >tried-and-true brand varnish oil. The latest issue of FWW rated the
> >same as easily the WORST of all wipe on finishes tested. Suprisingly,
> >Minwax wipe on poly was judged the best....
>
> If you think that we are having trouble understanding the results, you
> should visit the FWW website and check out the discussions that are
> going on there.
>
> It is quite enlightening.
I hadn't looked, but I can imagine... :)
It's as sorry an article in general as I can recall in FWW (and I've
subscribed since early in Vol 2)....and somewhat surprising as I've
thought most of Minick's previous writing pretty lucid.
Larry Jaques
spake:
>On 19 Jun 2005 23:15:36 -0700, nailsh...@aol.com wrote:
>
>>I think the literati here all know the score. If they don't like the
>>results of a test, then it is obvious that those who performed the test
>>are idiots at the least, and most probably paid liars on the payroll of
>>some shadowy anti woodworking organization funded by big business.
>
>there is some of that at play here. there is also some of the other-
>the magazine covering it's own economic ass...
I don't think Taunton needs to worry about finances. They're good
guys fighting the good fight and have high enough prices on all their
items to keep themselves clearly in the black forever. They cover 4
very tight niches quite well.
>>I have found that the differences in finish, especially failures in
>>finish are more likely due to applicator inexperience or careless
>>stupidity than the failure of the finish itself.
>
>very true
Agreed.
>>put a good finish down. As with tools, the finish products >when used
>>properly< will far outperform the applicator.
>
>ayup. but minwax poly will still look like cheap poly in the hands of
>a pro....
Not necessarily true. Poly looks quite nice when put on in thin, even
coats. The last time I used poly was some Diamondthane (or whatever it
was called 30 years ago) on my kitchen cabinet doors. It popped the
grain so well in the lauan that it looked like real mahogany. I spent
many an hour prepping it, cleaning it, and laying it down evenly.
After I deglossed it with Scotchbrite, I used lemon oil as a topcoat.
It looked great (even after I sobered up, so you know I wasn't a pro.)
;)
I have a feeling that even MinWhacked wiping poly might look good if
applied properly.
loutent
was a pretty balanced/fair article.
Lou
Lowell Holmes
"loutent" <lou...@dot.net> wrote in message
news:200620052112210631%lou...@dot.net...
> Since so many are bitching, it sounds like it
> was a pretty balanced/fair article.
>
> Lou
I didn't bitch, but I skipped the article. :-)
--
Lowell Holmes
B a r r y
>
>
> I have a feeling that even MinWhacked wiping poly might look good if
> applied properly.
Has your account been hacked? <G>
Barry
sah...@gmail.com
sometimes think that is the reason for some of these comparision
articles. Home made (or commodity) finishes rarely finish first.
I hope it is not so thin of a veil here but could be.
Larry Jaques
<keep_it_in_the_...@thankyou.com> spake:
LOL! No, I've simply seen far too many -extremely- poor applications
of poly; I'd say right about the 95% level.
Patriarch
>>
>>> I have a feeling that even MinWhacked wiping poly might look good if
>>> applied properly.
>>
>>Has your account been hacked? <G>
>
> LOL! No, I've simply seen far too many -extremely- poor applications
> of poly; I'd say right about the 95% level.
>
Patriarch
Larry Jaques
<gma...@nospam.comcast.dot.net> spake:
>>>Larry Jaques wrote:
Thank you for providing immediate and unrefutable proof, Glen. ;)
George
"St...@woodworkersedge.com" <sah...@gmail.com> wrote in message
news:1119390524.9...@g49g2000cwa.googlegroups.com...
It'd be a waste of time evaluating a something which didn't have a
consistent recipe.
Gawd I love conspiracy theories.....
Larry Jaques
<novalidaddress@di\/ersify.com> spake:
>On Tue, 21 Jun 2005 22:41:10 -0500, the opaque Patriarch
><gma...@nospam.comcast.dot.net> spake:
>
>>>>Larry Jaques wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> I have a feeling that even MinWhacked wiping poly might look good if
>>>>> applied properly.
>>>>
>>>>Has your account been hacked? <G>
>>>
>>> LOL! No, I've simply seen far too many -extremely- poor applications
>>> of poly; I'd say right about the 95% level.
>>>
>>That's how my last application of poly came out. About 95% level. :-)
>
>Thank you for providing immediate and unrefutable proof, Glen. ;)
Perhaps I should qualify that: proof of poor poly papplication, pard.
Namaste.
-----
= Dain Bramaged...but having lots of fun! =
http://www.diversify.com Comprehensive Website Development
LRod
A friend of mine on another project in another medium coined a phrase
you'll love: "never underestimate the power of a moron with a
conspiracy theory."
--
LRod
Master Woodbutcher and seasoned termite
Shamelessly whoring my website since 1999
Proud participant of rec.woodworking since February, 1997
Dave Balderstone
<"St...@woodworkersedge.com"> wrote:
In my experience (25 years+ in the publishing industry) it's the
opposite.
Much more likely is that they have a planned editorial calendar and
their ad department uses it to sell advertising. For some mags, that
calendar could be set a year in advance. It gives their sales force a
fairly powerful tool to use when talking to advertisers.
djb
--
~ Stay Calm... Be Brave... Wait for the Signs ~
------------------------------------------------------
One site: <http://www.balderstone.ca>
The other site, with ww links<http://www.woodenwabbits.com>
jo4hn
> On Wed, 22 Jun 2005 07:13:44 -0400, "George" <geo...@least.com> wrote:
>
>
>>"St...@woodworkersedge.com" <sah...@gmail.com> wrote in message
>>news:1119390524.9...@g49g2000cwa.googlegroups.com...
>>
>>>Do you think they are bending to the people buying the ads? I
>>>sometimes think that is the reason for some of these comparision
>>>articles. Home made (or commodity) finishes rarely finish first.
>>>
>>>I hope it is not so thin of a veil here but could be.
>>>
>>
>>It'd be a waste of time evaluating a something which didn't have a
>>consistent recipe.
>>
>>Gawd I love conspiracy theories.....
>
>
> A friend of mine on another project in another medium coined a phrase
> you'll love: "never underestimate the power of a moron with a
> conspiracy theory."
>
"And all God's sentient children say: 'AMEN'!"
j4