stumped by shellac
Kelly Cox
I'm a Neander woodworker, for starters, so any suggestions of airless
sprayers etc. will be looked at with skepticism...
I'm trying to finish a pine table top. Had it all hand-planed nice and
pretty, and tried to apply a few layers of dewaxed garnet (Paddylac) and got
very frustrated.
My idea was to start with a 'wash coat' of very dilute shellac (1 lb cut or
less) and avoid drips and runs this way. Then I thought applying subsequent
coats would be easy. Wasn't the case. Even the first coat showed thick areas
and 'puddle edges'. I tried rubbing these out when I applied a second coat,
using an old t-shirt. The 2nd coat was probably around a 2 lb cut, maybe a
bit thinner than that.
I was attempting to apply the shellac with a brush, by painting it on. Also,
to calibrate my 'cut'--I understand a 3lb cut to be roughly achievable by
putting shellac flakes in a jar, and filling the jar with alcohol (denatured
in my case) to where the flakes are just covered with alcohol.
I called a fellow Neander woodworker here in Madison, and he suggested
applying the shellac differently. He said it should be quite thick, like
about 20W motor oil, and I should try to coat the entire table top, and
'run' the shellac onto the surface, rather than try to paint it on.
This still confuses me. I can picture this working; allowing the entire
puddle of shellac to self-level would avoid any drips and runs, *except* at
the edges! What happens when I get shellac dripping over the edge and end
grain of my table top? Am I supposed to attempt to level *these* areas too?
Or am I supposed to fix these areas after the fact?
Which makes me wonder how the old-timers achieved a nice smooth shellac
finish on a curved surface...you can't very well let gravity level your
puddle of shellac in this case! And they certainly didn't have any airless
sprayers either.
Advice welcome!
Kelly Cox
Madison, WI
drve...@my-deja.com
"Kelly Cox" <c...@nicolet.dot.com> wrote:
> Hello, all;
>
> I'm a Neander woodworker, for starters, so any suggestions of airless
> sprayers etc. will be looked at with skepticism...
>
> I'm trying to finish a pine table top. Had it all hand-planed nice and
> pretty, and tried to apply a few layers of dewaxed garnet (Paddylac)
and got
> very frustrated.
Shellac is evil and I don't like it one bit. I have tried Paddylac
every way to Sunday and I have not gotten the results I seek. I am in
love with Minwax wipe on Polyurethane. It works for me and it is
durable under more conditions that shellac is. I would think that for a
table top where water could get spilled that shellac would be a no-no.
It would be for me. Anyway, shellac is evil. Try wipe on Polyurethane.
I need to go check up on my insurance, make my funeral arrangements, and
say goodbye to my family because I am sure I will be hunted down and
exterminated for my beliefs concerning shellac.
Brook
Sent via Deja.com http://www.deja.com/
Before you buy.
Joe Gorman
Kelly Cox wrote:
>
> Hello, all;
>
> I'm a Neander woodworker, for starters, so any suggestions of airless
> sprayers etc. will be looked at with skepticism...
>
> I'm trying to finish a pine table top. Had it all hand-planed nice and
> pretty, and tried to apply a few layers of dewaxed garnet (Paddylac) and got
> very frustrated.
>
Dr. Rev. Chuck, M.D., P.A.
>
> Which makes me wonder how the old-timers achieved a nice smooth shellac
> finish on a curved surface...you can't very well let gravity level your
> puddle of shellac in this case! And they certainly didn't have any airless
> sprayers either.
>
> Advice welcome!
Badger brush or French polishing.
sowi...@my-deja.com
to watch the color build. I wouldn't flood the surface. One thing
nice about the cold weather is that the shellac will dry a bit slower
and have a better chance to level out. You can also use cabinet
scrapers and razor blades to remove drips, followed by a rag dipped in
alcohol to feather in any marks (i.e. you removed a drip and now need
to smooth it into the surounding surface). Shellac can be a pain to
brush, I use a 2" badger brush and a 1" artist brush (check out
homestead finishing ). For the final coats I usually end up padding
the surface.
Steve
J Pagona aka Y.B.
> Anyway, shellac is evil. Try wipe on Polyurethane.
>
>I need to go check up on my insurance, make my funeral arrangements, and
>say goodbye to my family because I am sure I will be hunted down and
>exterminated for my beliefs concerning shellac.
>
>Brook
>
>
Nope. Actually, I like wipe on polyurethane. It all depends upon the use.
One of my favorite ways to apply shellac is to thin it way down, and pad it on.
It's easy to apply without any runs, and it dries in 10 minutes or less. I
can apply 8 or more thin coats in about 2 hours and have a beautiful finish.
Another way I get a nice finish is to use a heavier cut of shellac, and rub out
the surface after it has set. I made a mahogany table for my mother, and I
rubbed out the top usnig wet dry paper up to 1200 grit. I used Watco as a
lubricant, and I wiped the Watco off with mineral spirits after sanding with
each grit. the table shines.
One bad thing about wipe on poly: I've had it pull stain off of a piece, which
forced me to remove all of hte finish and start again. A thin washcoat of
shellac between the stain and the poly will prevent that from happening.
Hope some of this is helpful,
David
remove the "key" to email me
David F. Eisan
<snip of, Ahhhh!, shellac, Neander revenge...?>
Shellac is one of the most forgiving finishes of all time. No matter how
bad you screw up, you can go back and fix it.
When I first tried shellac, I thought I was having a big joke played on
Normites by the Neander cabal. The first and even second coat looked
like shit.
I used a shape chisel to remove the runs, sanded lightly with old 220
paper until everything was flat again, and worked on my brushing
technique. By the fifth coat I had a good build. I took my, ACK!, random
orbital sander to the bookcase with old 220 and lightly sanded until it
looked like the entire surface had been hit, making everything flat. I
then took 0000 steel wool to the surface and rubbed it out. It looked
great.
Here is what to do now,
Fix your mistakes, use a sharp chisel to remove any drips and runs.
Any areas of over build or lap marks, lightly hand sand with old 220 or
new 320.
Brush on a few more coats of a 2 pound cut.
LAY the finish on, do not brush it on. To lay it on means, put the brush
down starting at one corner of the table about 6" in from the edge, lay
the loaded brush on the table top and brush to the far edge. Lift the
brush and about 8" in from the edge you started near, brush out to that
edge. Do the same thing on the second strip you lay on, overlapping the
entire stroke about 1/2". NEVER brush FROM an edge, always brush TO an
edge, this way you will not have runs over the side. DON'T brush out
what you have laid down. Really, don't. You are not painting on a
finish, you are laying on the finish.
You must leave a wet edge not to have lap marks.
Again, fix any major mistakes, like drips and runs between coats. Don't
sweat the small mistakes.
Once you have about 5 coats on, lightly block sand the entire surface to
level it all out, fixing the small mistakes.
Let the surface cure for a few days.
Rub out with 0000 steel wool to bring the surface back to a satin
surface.
If you want a glass smooth, see your self finish, leave the table top
alone for a week and then rub out further with 2F and 4F pumice and then
rottenstone, lubing with 50/50 mineral oil/mineral spirits.
If you need more instructions on the above final rubbing out stage, feel
free to ask.
I helped another fellow local wrecker fix a table top he thought he had
ruined by following my exact technique. (Mike you here?)
Thanks,
David.
May you live in Interesting Times - Ancient Chinese Curse.
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ChromeDome
>
> My idea was to start with a 'wash coat' of very dilute shellac (1 lb cut or
> less) and avoid drips and runs this way. Then I thought applying subsequent
> coats would be easy. Wasn't the case. Even the first coat showed thick areas
> and 'puddle edges'. I tried rubbing these out when I applied a second coat,
> using an old t-shirt. The 2nd coat was probably around a 2 lb cut, maybe a
> bit thinner than that.
>
> I was attempting to apply the shellac with a brush, by painting it on. Also,
> to calibrate my 'cut'--I understand a 3lb cut to be roughly achievable by
> putting shellac flakes in a jar, and filling the jar with alcohol (denatured
> in my case) to where the flakes are just covered with alcohol.
>
Kelly, I've had the same problems you have. I didn't try spraying
because I don't have the equipment. But I've experimented with
different cuts, with waxed vs dewaxed, and with brushing vs wiping.
None completely solved the problem.
I got the best results by wiping on very thin coats of a 1 or 2 pound
cut, letting each dry for 24 hours and sanding with either 320 or 400
grit between each coat. Still not perfect, but adequate. I also wiped
down the vertical edges as soon as I'd applied a coat to avoid problems
there.
I have no idea how well this would do on a curved surface, but the thin
coats should help.
Gene
--
The "people" he "trusted" voted for Gore
Now Bush doesn't trust the people anymore :-)
jerem...@my-deja.com
> to calibrate my 'cut'--I understand a 3lb cut to be roughly
> achievable by putting shellac flakes in a jar, and filling the
> jar with alcohol (denatured in my case) to where the flakes are
> just covered with alcohol.
That sure sounds like a thick mixture to me. I use a digital scale to
weigh the flakes and I think I use about 1/2 the flakes you describe.
Even still, I end up dumping more alchohol in. I trust you are using
99%. I experienced the same trouble as you when trying to brush 2#
shellac - I had it diluted down to about .5# by the time I was happy
with it. At that consistency, it can be slopped on with the wildest of
brush strokes and it dries smooth as glass. A little light sanding
every 4-5 coats, a gallon jug of alchohol, a respirator, and a few days
of ritualistic shellacing can produce quite a finish.
Jeremy.
D.L.
Kelly Cox <c...@nicolet.dot.com> wrote in article
<cHVU5.17092$Le.23...@ratbert.tds.net>...
> Hello, all;
>
> I'm a Neander woodworker, for starters, so any suggestions of
airless
> sprayers etc. will be looked at with skepticism...
>
> I'm trying to finish a pine table top. Had it all hand-planed
nice and
> pretty, and tried to apply a few layers of dewaxed garnet
(Paddylac) and got
> very frustrated.
I'm sure someone else has already done this, but I "stumbled"
onto a finish technique that I like to use, and it is pretty
durable. The shellac cabal will also probably hunt me down
too, but so be it ;->
Many lament the yellowing with age of oil based varnishes,
etc...but I personally kinda like it. As the piece gets older,
it gets "warmer"....besides, what does orange and garnet 'lac
do but give this "coloring" right off the
bat...anyway....here's what I've been doing and it seems to
work well...
I managed this technique one day as I was cleaning up the tote
and knob on a stanley #4. The original finish was shot and I
wanted something more than just a tung oil finish (ok, I even
admit to totally scraping off the little remaining japanning as
well, used electrolysis to remove the rust and then, GACK!
spray painted the sucker gloss black! but it looks good after
polishing everthing up to 2000 grit <evil grin>)...but all I
had on hand was some tung oil/varnish mixture ("wipe on tung
oil finish" as it was called) and some spar varnish.
I sanded the tote and knob to 220 grit, brushed on the spar
varnish fairly thick and let it set overnight. Of course,
there were dust nibs and the varnish didn't level
completely...a bit of orange peel to it. No problem, I sanded
the varnish starting with 220 and worked up to 600 grit. Nice
and smooth, but far from "glossy". I was sitting there
thinking to myself, "ok, great, but if I lay on some more
varnish, it'll just get rough again"...so I took some of that
wipe on tung oil finish and well, wiped it on! whaddaya know!!
Smooth and very shiny! I liked it so muh, I went back and
sanded all the way up to 1000 grit, wiped on the oil again and
it's like glass. I let it cure for about 3 days and then waxed
it with car polish. That tote and knob look like wood colored
glass. I've used this technique on a couple of small boxes and
a beat up chest of drawers that I sanded down and refinished.
All are as smooth and shiny as glass, yet they don't look like
they are encased in plastic. The finish is very durable and
resists water, etc very well. Compared to laying up several
layers and rubbing each out, this goes fairly quick. If you
have some very porous wood, like oak, then it might be best to
seal it first, or use some kind of filler to get best results.
Nuno Souto
wrote:
>I was attempting to apply the shellac with a brush, by painting it on. Also,
When you apply it with a brush, you have to follow the old watercolour
brushing technique: keep a wet edge and paint "down" from it.
If you are brushing it like a normal oil finish, it won't work:
shellac will dry and make the "runs and sags" before you have time to
get back to it.
It helps if you tip the piece so you can literally paint from the top
down. Lighter cut helps too, a heavier cut makes it harder as it sags
and dries faster.
>
>This still confuses me. I can picture this working; allowing the entire
>puddle of shellac to self-level would avoid any drips and runs, *except* at
>the edges!
It won't self level. It dries before that happens.
>What happens when I get shellac dripping over the edge and end
>grain of my table top? Am I supposed to attempt to level *these* areas too?
>Or am I supposed to fix these areas after the fact?
>
Keep a rag dipped in alcohol handy, wipe the edges with it. Better
yet, do the edges first, then they'll be sealed and won't suck up as
much colour.
To fix any "sags": drip some alcohol on them, wait, then use brush
"tipping" lightly to even them out. Alcohol will soften even 100 year
old shellac.
I recommend you have a look at Michael Dresdner's Finish book: his
explanation of problems caused by brushing technique is quite good. I
learned a lot about using brushes from that book. Never had any
problems with it since then.
>Which makes me wonder how the old-timers achieved a nice smooth shellac
>finish on a curved surface...you can't very well let gravity level your
>puddle of shellac in this case! And they certainly didn't have any airless
>sprayers either.
>
They didn't use a brush. They used a rubbing pad. Works too, but
it's a different technique.
Cheers
Nuno Souto
nso...@bigpond.net.au.nospam
http://www.users.bigpond.net.au/the_Den/index.html
Kelly Cox
shellac.net faq and/or suggested (rather unhelpfully) "badger brush and
french polishing".
The change in brushing technique makes sense, and I think I might try that
on another project. I like Nuno's suggestion of finishing the edges first to
avoid drip problems.
But what I did last night was strip all the shellac off with a smooth plane,
and try again using the padding technique suggested by Steve. I used an old
sock, and a very light cut of dewaxed garnet (probably 1# or even less). I
put 4 coats on last night, and these coats still are less shellac than the
single coat I was applying earlier, but it looks a lot better too! Only a
few very slight sags and runs on the last coat, which I'm sure I can rub out
when I apply the next coats. I can see that I'll need to put down about 8 or
10 coats to get the look that I want, but that's ok.
As for durability of the shellac, I'm planning on putting some spar varnish
over the top to protect the table.
I'm sure learning a lot in the process, which is what makes me happy! 2
years of teaching myself hand tool techniques has been a lot of fun, now it
is time to learn some more about finishing...
Thanks, all!
Kelly Cox
Madison, WI
John Barry
news:2OZU5.123880$n9.24...@news2.rdc1.on.home.com...
Hi, David.
As a recent convert to the usefulness of cabinet scrapers, I've found that
such a tool is very useful for removing oopses of amber shellac. I always
find a few. Quick and simple to trim off.
Regards,
John
jerem...@my-deja.com
> <snip of, Ahhhh!, shellac, Neander revenge...?>
<snip of, Ohhhh!, shellac, a better way...!>
David,
I enjoyed your detailed brushing advice but I am confused by your
mention of the RO sander between coats. I tried that myself and could
not get it to work. The shellac sanded fine but the paper gummed up
and then blobs of gum transferred and became permanently adhered to the
wood. After 16 hours dry time (in AZ mind you, equivalent to about 400
days elsewhere) I could only get about 1 sq. ft. sanded with a new
Klingspor 320 disk at the lowest speed on my 6" Bosch before the clumps
would begin to transfer. A 220 disk was too aggressive on the RO. I
even had trouble hand sanding and found that I needed to work very
slowly and use coarse (150-220) grits to keep the clump transfer rate
down. Is it my Paddy Super blonde, my alcohol, my sandpaper, or my
head?
sowi...@my-deja.com
http://www.homesteadfinishing.com .It doesn't load up as easily. Also
try the 1/4 sheet PC 330 sander. I find it works great on shellac. If
you really need to cut some shellac off try a cabinet scraper either
with no hook or a very fine hook.
Steve
Fred Walker
never thought this would be true, but the type and quality of the brush makes
ALL the difference. See below from Don Williams, the Smithsonian's top shellac
guy...
>I am looking for some good brushes for shellac -
>I have a 3" badger brush, which is fine for flat horizontal surfaces, but
>would like a smaller brush for legs and turnings. Red sable? fitch? any
>suggestions would be appreciated. I need a source also. Thanks, I am
>enjoying all the info this groop has to offer - Dave
Don Williams writes:
You must be prescient. I was just musing yesterday that I might do a
piece on brushes, and now you've provoked me. So Groop, what
follows is now Dave's fault.
I've been brushing shellac for nearly thirty years (I only look like a
teenager : ) I have settled on using nylon brushes only, as I find the
resultant product superior. Period. One of the problems that
people have in finishing with shellac is using the wrong brush. Most often
they use something that performs no better than a whisk broom, and the
results show it. The brush choice is even more critical if you are doing
watercolor shellac work.
For brushing flat work, I find that a 1", 1 1/2", or 2" brush is all I
need for even the largest piece of furniture. My personal selection of
brushes includes mostly golden nylon flat water color brushes. They run
$15-75 per brush. But, like I said, they provide superior results and
don't go bad if you care for them properly (more about that later).
My collection includes Windsor Newton Series 580; Windsor Newton
Regency Gold series ( my all around "best pick"); Liquitex Series 693; and
Leow & Connell "La Comeille" series. I'm guessing that in the small box
that holds my good finishing and touch up brushes resides the better part
of $1500. But they've earned their keep and then some.
The logic behind the selection is this: to brush shellac properly you need
to thin it down to a 1-2 pound cut, which is essentially water-like in its
viscosity. In addition, since ethanol is one of the more polar solvents,
water being the most polar solvent, it makes perfect sense to use brushes
designed for water.
Finally, the highly cross-linked nylon bristle is virtually impervious to
the physical or chemical effects of the acohol: no matter how many years
you use one, nor how many hours a job takes, the performance of the
bristle doesn't change, again if the brush is properly cared for.
The same cannot be said for natural bristle brushes, which as a bundle of
protein chains do change their mechanical properties with repeated
exposures to alcohol (they become less stiff and bouncy) while their
chemical constitution remains relatively unchanged. This is in part do
to the ability of proteins to absorb and adsorb polar solvents. Think of
what happens to hide glue on exposure to polar solvents. In the case of
water, it becomes gelatinized or liquid, the addition of alcohol unzips
some of the polymeric structure. (Or even think about your own hair in
the swimming pool)
I have recently found another type of nylon brush at the paint store that
seems to work admirably for architectural-scale projects. Rather than
golden it is a pale wheat colored bristle sold under the brand name Corona
Edge with DuPont Chinex bristles. It is a rather unusual brush in that
its tip is not feathered like a lot of high end nylon brushes for latex
coatings: it doesn't look like it has "split ends." However, like other
good quality brushes, it has a price of about $15-20 for a 1" and
progressing upward as size increases.
If you must use a natural bristle brush bristle, make sure that you sculpt
the tip of it for best results. You do that by dipping it in a dilute
solution of shellac and letting it harden into its natural shape. then
you shape the hardened tip of it with either files or sandpaper so that
you get an even, smooth, flawless taper to the point.
So far the only natural bristle brush that provided anything like a
decent result has been an oval sash painter's brush (I bought a half dozen
about twenty years ago) from Johnson Paint in Boston
For curved or carved surfaces, I have recently discovered the remarkable
Loew & Cornell "Filbert Mop" which has a flat ferrule but a rounded tip.
My success with it has been nothing short of astounding. I debuted it at
last year's workshop and people were literally ooohing and ahhhing. It's
that good. Run, do not walk, to the nearest art supply store and get one.
For touch up and inpainting I stick to the same brands of nylon brushes,
making sure to have a good variety of sizes. For the best results in fine
touch up on transparent finished surfaces, I use a type of brush called a
"Rigger" which is inordinately long for its diameter. It is 2 or 3 times
longer than typical round brushes, so I get an excellent load on to and
flow off of the brush. However, because of their length and surface area,
they need to be cleaned frequently during a project. For larger
transparent work or painted surfaces a typical nylon round water color
brush works fine.
The only viable alternative to nylon I've found for touch up is to use a
Kolinsky sable watercolor brush, which does indeed provide a superior
result. But if you want to use them, make sure to go to the bank before
you go shopping. Unlike other sable brushes, Kolinskys are taken whole
from the very tip of the sable's tail (thus a limit of one brush per rodent),
and they naturally form a round, perfectly tapered tip that performs
flawlessly. But be prepared to part with $75 for even a little one, and
most are in the $100+ range for the real thing. If you see one advertised
for markedly less, it may not be what it claims (I'm shocked, SHOCKED!)
Other natural bristle brushes simply wimp out.
As for care and feeding of brushes, when I clean them I do not clean them
100% clean in alcohol, but rather to only about 95% clean. That way,
after they are "cleaned" I gently form them into the proper shape and let
them dry slightly stiff so they retain their shape perfectly. One of the
bad things about nylon brush bristles is that if they get bent or warped
you might as well throw them out or let the kids use them for their nails.
and cheap brushes lose their shape after only a couple of uses. One way
to tell is if the tip forms cleanly or is separated when wet. If the tip
separates more than a millimeter, toss the brush.
I have taught this approach to brushes for shellac to tons of students,
and the feedback I get is unanimously positive. For more on brushing
technique itself, check out my FWW article from the Mesozoic Era.
(Fortunately or unfortunately for you, FWW said "No thanks, our readers
just aren't interested" in the dozen other finishing article proposals I
sent them)
PS -- I teach a shellac workshop every year at Olde Mill Cabinet Shop in
York PA. About 75% of the time is spent on brush work. Date for next
year not set. their catalog even carries (or at least used to) many of
these brushes as "Don's Shellac Brushes" but you can get them at any
decent art store.
>
Paul T. Radovanic
>Hello, all;
Hello, Kelly. Take heart. Your first experience with shellac sounds
suspiciously like my first effort to tune a hand plane. I did every
possible thing wrong, and so did you. ;^>
Last weekend, I tuned and sharpened four planes in less than hour. I
was making consistent wispy shavings that floated around with all four
planes -- A MF #18C fore, a MF #10 (4-1/2 equivalent), a Stanley #3,
and a Knight smoother. Okay, they didn't need lapping, but they did
need honing and various levels of tweaking -- from grinding out a nick
in the #3 iron to frog adjustments to tap-tap-tapping the Knight
woodie. I know you can relate here. What was once a complete mystery
is now in second nature and muscle memory.
So take heart -- learning to properly apply shellac is easier than
learning to tune a plane. Like any skill, you only get better with
practice.
You've had some good replies, like David Eisan's -- I remember when he
was at your stage; didn't know squat. Now he's not only good at
applying shellac, he's good enough to explain it well -- and that's
because he hung in there and learned for himself. Anything we do in
woodworking is learned by *doing*, not by reading or talking.
Hundreds of other people here and on the Porch found something
worthwhile in shellac, too -- rest assured that they had to overcome a
few initial speed bumps, just like you.
Forget about Brook's reply. He's such a chicken. He says he tried it
"every way to Sunday" and still can't make it work. I just don't buy
that. Too many other people enjoy shellac, so the problem can't be
with the shellac. Not that there's anything wrong with his
recommendation to use waterborne poly. In fact, the two have a lot in
common, as far as application method goes. Figure that out, somebody.
>I'm a Neander woodworker, for starters, so any suggestions of airless
>sprayers etc. will be looked at with skepticism...
Heh. Haven't used a sprayer since high school. But I do keep a can
of aerosol shellac on hand, FWIW. I could go buy a sprayer -- but I
*like* hand-applied finishes, for the same reasons I like hand tools.
>I'm trying to finish a pine table top. Had it all hand-planed nice and
>pretty, and tried to apply a few layers of dewaxed garnet (Paddylac) and got
>very frustrated.
At the beginning of the learning curve, most of your shellac coats
should be done with one of the blonde flavors. Garnet and the other
darker coats are used sparingly, for coloring purposes.
>My idea was to start with a 'wash coat' of very dilute shellac (1 lb cut or
>less) and avoid drips and runs this way.
Avoiding runs and drips is more a function of technique than cut. But
most people do find a 1# cut the easiest to work with.
>Then I thought applying subsequent
>coats would be easy. Wasn't the case. Even the first coat showed thick areas
>and 'puddle edges'.
The easiest coat is the first one, applied to raw wood. The thick
areas and puddle edges are related to your method.
First of all, forget everything you know about applying varnish or
paint. This is different.
>I tried rubbing these out when I applied a second coat,
>using an old t-shirt.
If I understand this correctly, it's no wonder you had problems. You
were using a t-shirt, wet with shellac, and repeatedly rubbing an area
of dried shellac? Ahem. You had no chance of success. Zero.
>The 2nd coat was probably around a 2 lb cut, maybe a
>bit thinner than that.
I use a 2# cut for brushing, when I want to build up a film quickly.
But it requires practice and skill to do this. To this day, I always
start by brushing on scrap, just to develop the right "touch", before
I move on to the real project. I don't think it's necessary to learn
to properly brush a 2# cut right now. But if you want to, I'll be
glad to help. Or, get a good finishing book, and have it open on the
bench while you work. That's how I learned. Well, that, plus a
boatload of mistakes.
>I was attempting to apply the shellac with a brush, by painting it on. Also,
>to calibrate my 'cut'--I understand a 3lb cut to be roughly achievable by
>putting shellac flakes in a jar, and filling the jar with alcohol (denatured
>in my case) to where the flakes are just covered with alcohol.
This would be a misunderstanding. You were at least at a 4# cut.
Here's why: Michael Dresdner came up with an easy method to mix a 2#
cut. Mark two lines on a jar -- one twice as high as the other. Say
your first line is at 2". Fill flakes to that line. Add alcohol to
the second line, in this case 4". This will yield something close to
a 2# cut. Shake, rattle and roll.
Starting with this master mix, you can then pour some off into another
jar and cut to taste. Pour some into a jar and cut 50/50 with
alcohol, and you have a 1# cut, which I use for wiped coats. Pour
some of the 1# cut into another jar, cut it 50/50, and you have a 1/2#
cut, which I use for washcoats.
A word about alcohol -- I like to use 99% anhydrous isopropyl alcohol.
It takes just a bit longer to dry, giving you a little more time to
work; a little breathing room. The drawback is that it takes longer
to dissolve flakes. You can speed up the process by putting your
mixing jar in a pan of hot water.
You can use hardware-store denatured alcohol, which dissolves the
flakes faster, but it also dries faster, forcing you to work at a more
rapid pace.
99% Isopropyl alcohol can be special ordered at your pharmacy, usually
for around $15 a gallon. Or you can buy it at printing supply houses
for $10 a gallon or less. Look up "Printing Supplies" in the yellow
pages first and let your fingers walk -- not all of them carry it, and
some only carry 5-gallon containers. Stick with gallon jugs.
>I called a fellow Neander woodworker here in Madison, and he suggested
>applying the shellac differently. He said it should be quite thick, like
>about 20W motor oil,
Many people, working in isolation, find ways to make things work. But
this sounds like trouble to me, especially for a newbie.
>and I should try to coat the entire table top, and
>'run' the shellac onto the surface, rather than try to paint it on.
Any fast-drying finish must be applied with a "wet-edge" -- shellac,
lacquer, waterborne acrylic/poly finishes, even latex paint. This is
different from oil paint and varnish, where you work from a dry area
back to a wet area. The term "wet-edge" means that each new stroke is
laid down right next to the previous stroke, with just a tiny bit of
overlap.
You load up the brush, then, with a steady hand, you flow the finish
in a straight line onto the wood. You want to be moving when you
first touch the wood, and keep moving off the other end, like an
airplane that touches down and takes off again.
Using isopropyl alcohol, I start the stroke from the left. My hand is
in motion, moving rightward. When the brush first touches wood, it
actually hits about 3" in from the left edge, and leaves a small
puddle there. Maintaining even, steady pressure, my hand flows off
the right edge. Then I immediately, and I do mean immediately,
retrace the stroke from right to left, this time flowing over the 3"
space that I skipped at first, thus smoothing out the puddle. Like I
said, this is easier to do with isopropyl alcohol, especially if
you're working on a long piece of wood.
The next stroke is laid down exactly the same way, next to the
previous stroke, except that this stroke starts 3" in on the *right*
side and moves left, and retraces back to the right.
On a short piece, you might be able to do the stroke and retrace with
one load of the brush. On a longer piece, you might want to keep a
jar of the shellac on each side, and re-dip between stroke and
retrace. With practice, you'll get a feel for how to keep the brush
loaded properly, and also how much pressure to apply to the brush to
get the right layer applied for the length of the stroke. IOW, you're
balancing the pressure of the stroke with the amount of shellac that
the brush will hold so that you don't run dry before the end of a
stroke.
If your stroke wanders, and you leave a gap between two strokes, LEAVE
IT ALONE. Do *not* try to "touch it up". You'll only make it worse.
Just catch it on the next coat, which is only 2 or 3 hours away.
>This still confuses me. I can picture this working; allowing the entire
>puddle of shellac to self-level would avoid any drips and runs, *except* at
>the edges! What happens when I get shellac dripping over the edge and end
>grain of my table top? Am I supposed to attempt to level *these* areas too?
>Or am I supposed to fix these areas after the fact?
A couple thoughts on edges. In my example above, during that first
stroke, I would have had drips on the long edge closest to me. I
would have quickly feathered it smooth after I made the first two
strokes on top; same thing when I reach the other edge. But what to
do about the end grain edges? Shellac will be slopping over the whole
time, dripping away, right?
Remember I said you need to be moving at a brisk pace.
What works for me is to keep a small, 1" brush in a can of straight
alcohol. As I'm working the tabletop, I frequently drop my main brush
for a nanosecond, grab the little brush of alcohol, and feather out
the end grain edges. Move quickly, drop it back in the alcohol, and
get right back to the main surface.
I should mention here that I don't get too anal about the appearance
of the underside of the tabletop, whether I'm brushing shellac or
varnish or anything else. Some drips will work their way past the
edge, and form "stalactites" on the underside. I just scrape them
smooth later, and rub them out to make them look as good as possible,
but not perfect. I do keep a rag in a can of alcohol handy and make
frequent wipes along this edge as I work.
So I have three operations going on here -- the main brushing, the 1"
brush, and the wet rag. You don't have to hurry; but you do have to
be brisk with no wasted motion. After you do it a few times, you get
a feel for it.
Just keep this in mind: No matter what happens, it's really
stress-free. Shellac is the easiest finish to repair or remove, even
if you screw up big-time.
>Which makes me wonder how the old-timers achieved a nice smooth shellac
>finish on a curved surface...you can't very well let gravity level your
>puddle of shellac in this case! And they certainly didn't have any airless
>sprayers either.
You've touched on something important here -- the old-timers created
absolutely stunning finishes with shellac in a totally low-tech
environment. Some of those finishes survive intact to this day, after
centuries. There must be a reason, hmm?
To answer your question about curved surfaces, it's both a function of
knowing what to do at the time of application, and how to adjust the
finish after it dries.
By using faster-drying alcohol, and wiping on thinner coats of thinner
cuts of shellac, you can build up ten thin coats in no time. No runs,
no drips, no errors. This would be the preferred method of
application.
A brush is strictly a time-saver, employed to lay a thick layer of
shellac on the surface in a short period of time.
>Advice welcome!
Use mostly blonde until your skill improves. Get a good finishing
book from the library. Learn to use a rag first, then a brush. If
you want to add color with garnet (which looks especially nice on
pine, IMHO), apply the color coat with a rag. Follow the instructions
above for laying down each stroke right next to the previous, but use
a good quality rag instead of a brush. Then, always apply at least
one, preferably more coats of blonde on top of it.
Afterwards, you'll want to rub it out, but that's another story.
Hope that helps,
Paul Rad
Jeffrey Thunder
Paul T. Radovanic <pau...@concentric.net> writes:
[snip]
> Afterwards, you'll want to rub it out, but that's another story.
Another story, but definitely a sequel. Bob Flexner wrote that
it is impossible to apply the perfect finish (whether by hand,
mouth, or machine). You will always have flaws. The only way
to get it "just right" is to rub the finish out afterwards.
One shouldn't be stressing over glitches (minor ones, anyway)
in the applied finish. Take it in stride and rub out your
mistakes, so to speak.
That and a drastic lowering of standards
makes finishing easy. :)
--
Jeff Thunder, who's occassionally lowered his standards <bseg>
Dept. of Mathematical Sciences
Northern Illinois Univ.
jthu...@math.niu.edu
Patrick H. Corrigan
Patrick Olguin
"Kelly Cox" <c...@nicolet.dot.com> wrote:
> Hello, all;
What with Paully Rad and Davey E. raining down a hailstorm of solid
advice, lemme hit on one area that other folks brought up, without
posting direct followups, thus testing the threading capabilities of the
webtv newsreader software....
Corning-up - if you're sand paper causes the finish to corn on you,
there are several possible causes/solutions.
1. The shellac ain't ready for it.
Just because the shellac is dry, doesn't mean it's hard enough to take
an aggressive sanding, especially with fine grits like 400 and higher.
It not only has to be dry, it must be hard. Even in the semi-arid
climate of Southern California, I wait at least a few days if not a week
before attacking a shellac finish with fine sandpaper, and when I do,
it's always lubed with either mineral oil cut with odorless mineral
spirits (odorless kerosene - parrafin, Jeff - is also good), or
turpentine.
2. Using too high a grit.
Someone already mentioned this, but let me reiterate. It's a common
mistake for veteran and newby alike to go to too fine a grit when using
any kind of abrasive. This goes for sanding wood, grinding metal,
linishing plane frogs and lapping soles. A more aggressive abrasive will
cut faster, cleaner and with more manageable results than seemingly
endless polishing with fine grits (whether it's paper, pumice, etc). If
you have serious flaws in the finish, shave 'em off with a razor. It
really works. If you're handy with a paring chisel, they work great on
cutting off Shellactites (TM me), those little gobs of shellac that
Paully described, that stick to the undersides of things.
3. Using the wrong leveling too for the job.
Scrapers, scrapers, scrapers. Tommy L-N's flexible scrapers are THE tool
for leveling a goofed-up shellacked surface (hey, drop the shavings back
in the jar.. they're recyclable). A very light touch and little to no
hook works best. Those scrapers are ready to go, right out of the box.
Scrpers can get into corners, though they're a little bit limited on
curved surfaces.
Lastly, get your brush from Jeff Jewitt's web site -
www.homesteadfinishing.com. The daklon brushes will practically force
you to use the light touch required to lay down a finish, vs. brushing
it in.
O'Deen
--
World's Finest Shellac... delivered right to your door
http://www.shellac.net
David F. Eisan
<snip of sander loads up with shellac>
I used the ROS to fix a lot of mistakes on my first shellac attempt.
Don't use it between each coat, you will cut through. With proper
brushing technique you should only have to level sand on the last coat.
If you have the patience, hand sand. The speed of the ROS and the heat
build up is what is gumming your paper in your high humidity
environment. I am up here in Canada, and with the temp below 0 here, I
have no heat or humidity problem when I sand in the shop.
With the few blobs I did get on the paper, I picked them off with a
finish nail or a brass wire brush.
David Randolph
>
> On Tue, 28 Nov 2000, "Kelly Cox" wrote:
> >I'm a Neander woodworker, for starters, so any suggestions of airless
> >sprayers etc. will be looked at with skepticism...
>
> Heh. Haven't used a sprayer since high school. But I do keep a can
> of aerosol shellac on hand, FWIW. I could go buy a sprayer -- but I
> *like* hand-applied finishes, for the same reasons I like hand tools.
I recently tried shellac for the first time on a bowl/vessel. This bowl
had a large area of missing wood and spalting. So, my technique of using
a cotton rag to apply the shellac just wasn't going to work on the
missing wood areas.
What I did was to *really* dilute the shellac - maybe a 1/4# cut. The
stuff looked like water with a hint of color. Then, I went to the nearby
drug store and bought a hand pump sprayer for $1. (They were in the hair
products area.) I sprayed on a coat, waited a few moments for the first
coat to dry and sprayed on some more. The final results were quite nice.
The sprayer got cleaned out by running some alcohol through it.
So, neander woodworkers can still spray shellac!
NOSPAMBOB
In article <3A2679...@gte.net>, David Randolph <res0...@gte.net> writes:
>The sprayer got cleaned out by running some alcohol through it.
Name works for E-mail