Freud vs Forrest

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Jack Zucker

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Jul 15, 1997, 3:00:00 AM7/15/97
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I recently posted an article about my success with Freud's F80, 80 tooth
ATB blade for cutting plywood.

Freud also makes a blade called the F40 which is a 40 tooth version and
looks virtually identical to the Forrest Woodworker II. The salesperson
told me that they use very simlar hook angles as Forrest does.
Additionally, at a little over $50, the Freud is 1/2 the price of the
Forrest and does not have to be sent back to the factory for
resharpening.

Has anyone tried the Freud F40 ? If so, does it compare favorably to the
Forrest as the sales droids claim ? I'm currently using a Freud LU84
combination blade for the majority of my cutting (except plywood, which
the LU84 does poorly) but I'm wondering, based on the glowing accolades
of the Forrest whether I'd be better off with an 40 tooth ATB type blade
such as the Freud. (I don't want to spend the extra dough on the
Forrest)

Thanks for any info,

-Jaz

chita

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Jul 15, 1997, 3:00:00 AM7/15/97
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There's more to a Forrest blade than the overt specs (such as hook angle).
They come from Forrest _sharpened_ and finished to an astonishing degree.
It's the difference between an assembly line engine and one that's been
blueprinted. They're both made to the same spec sheet, but the execution of
the build is of a different order of quality.

As for being "forced" to send it back to Forrest for sharpening - you
should be so lucky as to have a Forrest-quality sharpener nearby! Forrest
could set up a whole new business just sharpening blades.

If you want to save money on a daily blade, try the Freud LU85.

--
Real email address: ch...@worldnet.att.net. Sorry for the hassle, but I got
tired of the spambots.

Jack Zucker <j...@gwis.com> wrote in article <33CB56...@gwis.com>...

RBowles96

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Jul 15, 1997, 3:00:00 AM7/15/97
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I was fortunate in getting the Forrest WWII at XMAS along with the
discount slips for sharpening. Great blade but better yet the Freud that
came with the BT3000, sharpened several times before, came back from
Forrest sharper than when new! I'm convinced!!


In article <01bc9144$c713d2a0$ef9893cf@chita>, "chita"

hau...@mbi.org

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Jul 16, 1997, 3:00:00 AM7/16/97
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In article <33CCAC...@homer.louisville.edu> Steward Family <jhst...@homer.louisville.edu> writes:
>From: Steward Family <jhst...@homer.louisville.edu>
>Subject: Re: Freud vs Forrest
>Date: Wed, 16 Jul 1997 11:09:53 +0000

>
>> I was fortunate in getting the Forrest WWII at XMAS along with the
>> discount slips for sharpening. Great blade but better yet the Freud that
>> came with the BT3000, sharpened several times before, came back from
>> Forrest sharper than when new! I'm convinced!!


Convinced of what, exactly? Sounds like you're commending their sharpening
service more than their blades.


>> >
>> > As for being "forced" to send it back to Forrest for sharpening -
>> you
>> >should be so lucky as to have a Forrest-quality sharpener nearby! Forrest
>> >could set up a whole new business just sharpening blades.
>> >

Yes, but what does it cost to have forrest sharpen a blade??

>I have both a forrest and a freud blade. My freud blade has become my
>junk blade, there is no comparison. The forrest blade stays sharp
>many times longer than the freud,


Jason, it is courteous to delete preceding junk that is irrelevant to your
post.

What Freud blade do you have? If you're comparing a $28 TK series to a
$120 Forrest, then you're right - there's no comparison. But I'm most
intrigued by "stays sharp many time longer". Many times? Can you quantify
this?

>usable lifetime. I don't regret buying the freud, I need a good blade
>to cut chip board and mdf for rough work,

Now it's really sounding like a low line freud. I wouldn't use an LU85 to cut
particleboard!

Rich

Dave Lers

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Jul 16, 1997, 3:00:00 AM7/16/97
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rbow...@aol.com (RBowles96) wrote:

>I was fortunate in getting the Forrest WWII at XMAS along with the
>discount slips for sharpening. Great blade but better yet the Freud that
>came with the BT3000, sharpened several times before, came back from
>Forrest sharper than when new! I'm convinced!!
>
I makes me wonder. Properly sharpened blades work better and it may
have something to do with why folks like Forrest blades. I have to
send down to Seattle to get a good sharpening. One shop in town does
ok and another doesn't even know what grit he's sharpening with.

Dave Lers
bay...@memes.com
http://www.memes.com/~baywood/

Steward Family

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Jul 16, 1997, 3:00:00 AM7/16/97
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RBowles96 wrote:
>
> I was fortunate in getting the Forrest WWII at XMAS along with the
> discount slips for sharpening. Great blade but better yet the Freud that
> came with the BT3000, sharpened several times before, came back from
> Forrest sharper than when new! I'm convinced!!
>
> In article <01bc9144$c713d2a0$ef9893cf@chita>, "chita"
> <ch...@worldnet.att.net-nospam> writes:
>
> > There's more to a Forrest blade than the overt specs (such as hook
> angle).
> >They come from Forrest _sharpened_ and finished to an astonishing degree.
> >It's the difference between an assembly line engine and one that's been
> >blueprinted. They're both made to the same spec sheet, but the execution
> of
> >the build is of a different order of quality.
> >
> > As for being "forced" to send it back to Forrest for sharpening -
> you
> >should be so lucky as to have a Forrest-quality sharpener nearby! Forrest
> >could set up a whole new business just sharpening blades.
> >
> > If you want to save money on a daily blade, try the Freud LU85.
> >
> >--
> >Real email address: ch...@worldnet.att.net. Sorry for the hassle, but I
> got
> >tired of the spambots.
> >
> >Jack Zucker <j...@gwis.com> wrote in article <33CB56...@gwis.com>...
> >> I recently posted an article about my success with Freud's F80, 80
> tooth
> >> ATB blade for cutting plywood.
> >>
> >> Freud also makes a blade called the F40 which is a 40 tooth version and
> >> looks virtually identical to the Forrest Woodworker II. The salesperson
> >> told me that they use very simlar hook angles as Forrest does.
> >> Additionally, at a little over $50, the Freud is 1/2 the price of the
> >> Forrest and does not have to be sent back to the factory for
> >> resharpening.

I have both a forrest and a freud blade. My freud blade has become my

junk blade, there is no comparison. The forrest blade stays sharp

many times longer than the freud, and has a cleaner cut over its

usable lifetime. I don't regret buying the freud, I need a good blade

to cut chip board and mdf for rough work, but when it comes to
furniture work I put on the forrest.

Jason

Peter Lemmond

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Jul 17, 1997, 3:00:00 AM7/17/97
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[[ snip lots of interesting info, sharpening, etc. ]]


It is pretty silly to try to compare "Freud vs Forrest." In their
current catalog, Freud shows over 30 different woodworking blades,
ranging from under $20 to over $150. Forrest, on the other hand, makes
only two or three, all top of the line, and top dollar.

I can personnally recommend the Freud LU84M for a table saw, and the
LU85M for a chop/mitre saw. I cannot imagine how the cut edges produced
with either of these blades could be any better. Silky smooth, crisp
corners, and minimal burning. I've been sorely tempted on many
occaisions to go right from the table saw to final assembly. And I
bought both of these blades for less than the cost of a single
Forrest.

Of course, if I had sprung for Forrest blades in the first place, I am
sure I would be singing their praises as well.

-Peter


FT SHOOTER

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Jul 17, 1997, 3:00:00 AM7/17/97
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Due to the ongoing thread about the superiority of Forrest,over Freud saw
blades,I purchased one of each,which I then installed on two of my table
saws.The object being to attempt to determine if one was vastly superior
to the other.The Forrest came out very slightly ahead in this admittedly
not too very scientific comparison.Neither was as good as the Ghutto
blades which I normally buy.After cryogenic treatment of these blades,I
found the Freud to be vastly better than the Forrest,but still not as good
as the Ghutto,which was also cold treated.My final opinion on the subject
turned out to be that the Forrest is terribly overpriced,and I do not
intend to buy either of them again,not that I consider either of them to
be a waste of money,but that for a lesser price,I can have better.

Martin Schuessler

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Jul 17, 1997, 3:00:00 AM7/17/97
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Here's the Forrest vs Freud thread again.

The question I have is: How smooth of a cut do you NEED ? I've been
running Freud TK series blades. I'm pretty happy with them. Is the
WWII a better blade ? Of course it is - I'll take the word of lots
of satisfied users. But I have a jointer, so I'm not concerned about
gluing up right after ripping, and my projects rarely display end
grain (if I can help it). Fact is, I won't need a "perfect" edge
if it means I can save some money. Of course I am tempted to
get a Forrest anyway, just because they're supposed to stay sharp
so long.

Regards,

MArtin

Mitch Sako

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Jul 18, 1997, 3:00:00 AM7/18/97
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FT SHOOTER (ftsh...@aol.com) wrote:
: Ghutto blades are of German mfr.,and I purchase them from Bill's
: sharpening Service,in Grand Rapids Mi.

How much?
--
----------------------------------------------------------
Mitch Sako ms...@netcom.com


FT SHOOTER

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Jul 18, 1997, 3:00:00 AM7/18/97
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FT SHOOTER

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Jul 18, 1997, 3:00:00 AM7/18/97
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The price varies with the specs.of the blade,as with any other mfr.,I also
probably get a bit of a discount,as I do a good bit of business
withBill's,@5780 Alpine N.W.Comstock Park Mi. 616-784-1755

Jack Zucker

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Jul 19, 1997, 3:00:00 AM7/19/97
to FT SHOOTER

Huh?

My original question was the Forrest Woodworker II vs the Freud F40. The
cheapest price I've seen on the Forrest is $99, the Freud - $52.

-Jaz

Joseph Vogt

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Jul 19, 1997, 3:00:00 AM7/19/97
to j...@gwis.com

I just purchased a Jet 10" contractor saw with X-acta fence (WOW....
what a saw!). I was looking at Forrest and Freud blades, but settled
on a third possibility....Matsushita. I heard nothing but raves about
them, and they are about 30% cheaper than Forrest (though more than
Freud). So far, they seem superb. I got them from a mail-order
tool distributor, Contractors Connection, in Hartford, CT. They
have an 800 number, and were very nice to deal with. I ordered my
blades and had them in less than 48 hours. The Matsushita 60 tooth
combination blade crosscuts or rips a 2 X 4 leaving a surface like
glass. Also, Contractors Connection will give an additional 10%
discount with the first order, and shipping is free.

Jack Zucker

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Jul 19, 1997, 3:00:00 AM7/19/97
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Let's get back to the original question:

Has anyone compared the Freud F40 vs. the Forrest Woodworker II ? The
Freud is 1/2 the price and according to the sales droids is nearly
identical.

-Jaz

Peter Lemmond

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Jul 20, 1997, 3:00:00 AM7/20/97
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Are you sure about the "F40" model number? This isn't listed in my copy
of the Freud catalog. Everything is listed with two letters (TK, LU,
etc) followed by two or three digits, and then zero or one letters.
There is no "40" anything.

FWIW, I have LU84M in my table saw, and LU85M in my mitre saw. Couldn't
be happier, and combined cost less that Forrest WWII.

-Peter


John Derricott

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Jul 20, 1997, 3:00:00 AM7/20/97
to j...@gwis.com

Jack Zucker wrote:

> Let's get back to the original question:
>
> Has anyone compared the Freud F40 vs. the Forrest Woodworker II ? The
> Freud is 1/2 the price and according to the sales droids is nearly
> identical.
>
> -Jaz

Jaz,

I have both blades but I haven't done a scientific study to compare
them. I use the WW II on my table saw and the Freud on my RAS. I would
say that the blades are equally good for the first month or so of use. I
have had the WW II for 2 years and probably have ripped 2000-3000 feet
of hardwood, plywood, MDF, etc. with it.I haven't had it sharpened yet.
I meant to use the sharpening coupon but it expired before I even
thought of sharpening. The freud is less than a year old and probably
has done less than 1000 feet of cutting but needs sharpening now. I
don't know if its the grade of carbide or the way they are sharpened or
what, but the WW II is definitely holding up better. When I sawed
through a steel screw with the WW II a couple of months ago I expected
to have some chipped teeth and need sharpening but when I got up the
nerve to check it out with a magnifier I couldn't find any dammage. I
still haven't had it sharpened.

I don't know if the WW II is worth twice the price or not. You'd have to
save several sharpenings to justify the extra cost. If I had it to do
over I think I would still buy one of each for the way I use them.

I have seen a compareitive article on blades. I think it was in Wood
Mag. about a year ago. As I recall the WWII came out on top but, again
is it worth twice the money?

I hope some of this helps.

John


Michael John Hide

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Jul 21, 1997, 3:00:00 AM7/21/97
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Jack Zucker <j...@gwis.com> wrote:

>I recently posted an article about my success with Freud's F80, 80 tooth
>ATB blade for cutting plywood.
>
>Freud also makes a blade called the F40 which is a 40 tooth version and
>looks virtually identical to the Forrest Woodworker II. The salesperson
>told me that they use very simlar hook angles as Forrest does.
>Additionally, at a little over $50, the Freud is 1/2 the price of the
>Forrest and does not have to be sent back to the factory for
>resharpening.
>

>Has anyone tried the Freud F40 ? If so, does it compare favorably to the
>Forrest as the sales droids claim ? I'm currently using a Freud LU84
>combination blade for the majority of my cutting (except plywood, which
>the LU84 does poorly) but I'm wondering, based on the glowing accolades
>of the Forrest whether I'd be better off with an 40 tooth ATB type blade
>such as the Freud. (I don't want to spend the extra dough on the
>Forrest)
>
>Thanks for any info,
>
>-Jaz

To answer such a question is allmost impossible, that is unless they
are tested under care fully controlled conditions where all things are
equal . I noticed that one fellow mentioned he was using one on his
RAS and the other on his tablesaw even if the usage was identical then
there could easily be geometry , material differences type of wood
being cut ,cutting speeds ,width of cut,ripping or xcutting and so on
that make one blade preferable for a particular use .
So in short unless it is a fair test then I do not think the question
can have a satisfactory answer.
Heck I have even heard that a plain high speed steel blade is better
than a carbide tipped one because it stays sharper longer ,the truth
of which I am not at all sure of mjh

Jack Zucker

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Jul 21, 1997, 3:00:00 AM7/21/97
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John Derricott wrote:
>
> I have both blades but I haven't done a scientific study to compare
> them. I use the WW II on my table saw and the Freud on my RAS. I would
> say that the blades are equally good for the first month or so of use. I
> have had the WW II for 2 years and probably have ripped 2000-3000 feet
> of hardwood, plywood, MDF, etc. with it.I haven't had it sharpened yet.
> I meant to use the sharpening coupon but it expired before I even
> thought of sharpening. The freud is less than a year old and probably
> has done less than 1000 feet of cutting but needs sharpening now.

Thanks for the reply. That would corraborate Forrest's claims but the
thing that puzzles me is that they both use C4 Carbide. I wonder why
Forrest's blades would retain sharpness so much longer? Can anyone else
with more expertise comment on that ?

-Jaz

<< __ Bob __ >>

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Jul 21, 1997, 3:00:00 AM7/21/97
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FORREST simply does a better job of sharpening their blades. Carbide
has a strange characteristic of dulling very quickly when it gets very
hot. If the blade starts out sharper, it's less likely to run as hot,
thereby remaining sharper/longer. As a blade dulls, it runs hotter,
dulls more quickly, causing it to run hotter, causing it to dull . . . .
. .

This is part of the premise that FORREST presents as the logic behind
their recommendation to run the blade at full height . . . . . less
teeth "scrubbing" in the kerf, therefore less heat & a longer-lasting
blade. If you don't feel safe with the high blade setting, by all
means use whatever heighht you're comfortable with, but realize it will
be at some cost to blade longevity. FORREST says that their blade
running at full height will run approximately 450 deg. COOLER than one
set at 1/8" above the stock. I took their advice, and I too have never
gotten to use a sharpening coupon prior to it's expiration !!!
--
<<< BOB >>>

May God be above you to bless you, within you to sanctify you, around
you to protect you, and before you to guide you.

DarylRos

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Jul 21, 1997, 3:00:00 AM7/21/97
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>: Of course, if I had sprung for Forrest blades in the first place, I am

>: sure I would be singing their praises as well.

I've got both the Forrest WWII AND the Freud LU-84. The Forrest is
machined better; it's honestly the difference between the Rolls and the
Mercedes. I've also had great success with Amana 60 tooth TCG blades (the
20T ripper is not very good however). I've noticed that as my woodworking
skills improve I do want the better quality blade.

The biggest difference in Freud vs. Forrest is not in the standard blade,
but in the dado blades, where I happily got rid of my Freud blade, with
the poorly bored arbor holes and less than perfect balancing, and
graduated to the Forrest 4 tooth chippers. It is FAR superior. What you
pay for with the Freud is a nifty plastic case and a nice thickness chart;
Forrest gives you cardboard, no chart, and a wonderful cut. Was clearly
worth the tradeoff.

Michael John Hide

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Jul 21, 1997, 3:00:00 AM7/21/97
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gwa...@cv.hp.com (Gary Watts) wrote:

>> (<__Bob__B....@worldnet.att.net) wrote:
>: be at some cost to blade longevity. FORREST says that their blade


>: running at full height will run approximately 450 deg. COOLER than one

>: set at 1/8" above the stock. ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
>
>I hope this is a typo. The blade certainly won't get to 450 deg F let
>alone be 450 degrees F cooler......perhaps you meant 45 degrees.
>
>Gary
I read it too and agree.mjh

Gary Watts

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Jul 21, 1997, 3:00:00 AM7/21/97
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<< __ Bob __ >>

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Jul 21, 1997, 3:00:00 AM7/21/97
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Nope, the man definitely said 450 deg COOLER !!!

hau...@mbi.org

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Jul 21, 1997, 3:00:00 AM7/21/97
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In article <33d3b9e...@news.mindspring.com> mike...@mindspring.com (Michael John Hide) writes:
>From: mike...@mindspring.com (Michael John Hide)

>Subject: Re: Freud vs Forrest
>Date: Mon, 21 Jul 1997 19:35:32 GMT

>gwa...@cv.hp.com (Gary Watts) wrote:

>>> (<__Bob__B....@worldnet.att.net) wrote:
>>: be at some cost to blade longevity. FORREST says that their blade
>>: running at full height will run approximately 450 deg. COOLER than one
>>: set at 1/8" above the stock. ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
>>
>>I hope this is a typo. The blade certainly won't get to 450 deg F let
>>alone be 450 degrees F cooler......perhaps you meant 45 degrees.
>>
>>Gary

>I read it too and agree.mjh


Like, fer sure, dude. This is a PERFECT example of misplaced advertising.
People like BOB read something, and just repeat it, not even realizing they're
off by an order of magnitude, or that what they're saying makes no sense
whatsoever.

Rich
Just say apparently BOB has an eerie reverance for FORREST

<< __ Bob __ >>

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Jul 21, 1997, 3:00:00 AM7/21/97
to


Believe whatever you like guys . . . BUT think about something . . . one
of the biggest gripes around here is "Why is my saw smoking ???" It's
because your dull, out-of-alignment blade is running red-hot and trying
to set your stock on fire. I'm simply re-stating what the FORREST
sales rep. told me at a show . . . raise the blade . . . run 450 degrees
cooler. Just like Ripley's . . . Believe-it or not.

Instead of trying to rip me for answering a query, why don't one of
you "silent 'till there's someone to pounce on" types try calling
FORREST to find out what their position is. I personally don't give a
rat's ass what you guys think about the practice, but I purchased an
expensive blade, and am adibing by their instructions as to proper use
and care of it, with, I might add, spectacular results. If you wish to
rebut, please do so in an intelligent manner (FACTS) instead of
finger-pointing bullshit.

You expose your intelligence when you insist that your $35.95 X-Brand
blade is just as good as a $139.00 FORREST . . . . it just ain't so and
never will be.
--
<<< BOB >>>

Mitch Sako

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Jul 21, 1997, 3:00:00 AM7/21/97
to

> (<__Bob__B....@worldnet.att.net) wrote:
: Believe whatever you like guys . . . BUT think about something . . . one

: of the biggest gripes around here is "Why is my saw smoking ???" It's
: because your dull, out-of-alignment blade is running red-hot and trying
: to set your stock on fire. I'm simply re-stating what the FORREST
: sales rep. told me at a show . . . raise the blade . . . run 450 degrees
: cooler. Just like Ripley's . . . Believe-it or not.

I read the stuff about the blade height and didn't realize how
significant it was, now I've been enlightened. I haven't spun
my WWII yet, however I have seen a few WWIIs after a couple of years
of heavy service and they certainly do perform quite well.

: Instead of trying to rip me for answering a query, why don't one of


: you "silent 'till there's someone to pounce on" types try calling
: FORREST to find out what their position is. I personally don't give a
: rat's ass what you guys think about the practice, but I purchased an
: expensive blade, and am adibing by their instructions as to proper use
: and care of it, with, I might add, spectacular results. If you wish to
: rebut, please do so in an intelligent manner (FACTS) instead of
: finger-pointing bullshit.

I wouldn't worry about the "My Emerson radio is just as good as your
Sony" crowd. It's a choice to purchase the Forrest, I made that choice
and it was based upon the experiences of people I trust. I have
absolutely no doubts in my mind that it was a cost effective purchase.

: You expose your intelligence when you insist that your $35.95 X-Brand


: blade is just as good as a $139.00 FORREST . . . . it just ain't so and
: never will be.

I have never seen anyone rip the Forrest blade. I have seen plenty
of people claim that others were just as good, perhaps with the exception
of that guy who likes Ghutto blades.

FT SHOOTER

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Jul 21, 1997, 3:00:00 AM7/21/97
to

How about the Guhdo blades that I buy,which outperform Forrest,at 2/3 of
the price?

Milt Scholl

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Jul 21, 1997, 3:00:00 AM7/21/97
to

LOTS of words deleted....

> Heck I have even heard that a plain high speed steel blade is better
> than a carbide tipped one because it stays sharper longer ,the truth
> of which I am not at all sure of mjh

Actually a good hardened steel cutting edge (properly sharpened) is
always
sharper than a carbide tip to start with. As it dulls it will at some
point
reach the "degree of sharpness/dullness" of a sharpened carbide cutting
edge.
The difference between the two is the RATE at which they dull from the
same
degree of sharpness. If you want a VERY sharp edge - go with a non-tool
steel
non-carbide cutting edge. You want pure tempered martensite at the
cutting
edge, no carbides. You can really only sharpen a blade to about the
size of
the carbides in the microstructure. I know it is theoretically possible
to
sharpen both the same amount - but realistically? No way.

Milt Scholl

p.s. not an opinion, this is based on research I have done with both saw
chain
and working with sawmills.

Michael John Hide

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Jul 22, 1997, 3:00:00 AM7/22/97
to

hau...@mbi.org wrote:

>In article <33d3b9e...@news.mindspring.com> mike...@mindspring.com (Michael John Hide) writes:
>>From: mike...@mindspring.com (Michael John Hide)
>>Subject: Re: Freud vs Forrest
>>Date: Mon, 21 Jul 1997 19:35:32 GMT
>
>>gwa...@cv.hp.com (Gary Watts) wrote:
>
>>>> (<__Bob__B....@worldnet.att.net) wrote:
>>>: be at some cost to blade longevity. FORREST says that their blade
>>>: running at full height will run approximately 450 deg. COOLER than one
>>>: set at 1/8" above the stock. ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
>>>
>>>I hope this is a typo. The blade certainly won't get to 450 deg F let
>>>alone be 450 degrees F cooler......perhaps you meant 45 degrees.
>>>
>>>Gary
>>I read it too and agree.mjh
>
>
>Like, fer sure, dude. This is a PERFECT example of misplaced advertising.
>People like BOB read something, and just repeat it, not even realizing they're
>off by an order of magnitude, or that what they're saying makes no sense
>whatsoever.
>
>Rich
>Just say apparently BOB has an eerie reverance for FORREST

Heck if I had known that I could toss the old microwave ,run the table
saw ,remove the blade a,nd cook steaks for lunch on it .
Of course with even that as a minimum running temperature one wonders
how long the carbide tip brazing would hold .
Getting back to the saw blade comparison bit , and in particular the
carbide teeth ,is there that much variation in carbide materials that
would account for the longevity of Forrest blades ? I personally do
not think so it has to be to do with the basic blade design the number
of teeth and the tooth geometry etc and not least the usage .mjh

Mitch Sako

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Jul 22, 1997, 3:00:00 AM7/22/97
to

Milt Scholl (mi...@mse.ogi.edu) wrote:
: LOTS of words deleted....

: > Heck I have even heard that a plain high speed steel blade is better
: > than a carbide tipped one because it stays sharper longer ,the truth
: > of which I am not at all sure of mjh
: Actually a good hardened steel cutting edge (properly sharpened) is
: always
: sharper than a carbide tip to start with. As it dulls it will at some
: point
: reach the "degree of sharpness/dullness" of a sharpened carbide cutting
: edge.
: The difference between the two is the RATE at which they dull from the
: same
: degree of sharpness. If you want a VERY sharp edge - go with a non-tool
: steel
: non-carbide cutting edge. You want pure tempered martensite at the
: cutting
: edge, no carbides. You can really only sharpen a blade to about the
: size of
: the carbides in the microstructure. I know it is theoretically possible
: to
: sharpen both the same amount - but realistically? No way.


The sharpest edge is going to be had from a high-carbon steel blade.
I've got some hocho knives from Japan made of pure carbon steel that
rust up in minutes if not wiped dry. Of course, you would never want to
use this sort of steel for making sawblades, it's just too soft.
Of course, if you had unlimited supplies of blades and unlimited
time, I suppose you could use high-carbon steel for your saw blades
and they would cut an edge that looks positively polished. I
wouldn't recommend this, though. Incidently, the best hocho knives
costs in the 10's of thousands of dollars or more and can literally
split hairs.

Sam Shank

unread,
Jul 22, 1997, 3:00:00 AM7/22/97
to

> : not too very scientific comparison.Neither was as good as the Ghutto

> : blades which I normally buy.After cryogenic treatment of these blades,I
> : found the Freud to be vastly better than the Forrest,but still not as good
> : as the Ghutto,which was also cold treated.My final opinion on the subject
>
> I'm not familiar with the Ghutto brand you mention. Any pointer on where
> to find out more info?

And what of this cryo treatment? Have I missed a beat?

--
Sam Shank Dept. of Biochemistry CWRU
sh...@biocserver.cwru.edu

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FT SHOOTER

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Jul 23, 1997, 3:00:00 AM7/23/97
to

I buy my Ghutto blades from Bills Sharpening service in Comstock
Park,Mi..As to the cryo.treatment,it realinesthe metalurgical structure of
the metal,and increases it's wear resistance,Thus,it will extend the
useful time between sharpenings,and make the metals much tougher.

Jacques and Sharen Vandenbroek

unread,
Jul 23, 1997, 3:00:00 AM7/23/97
to FT SHOOTER

In the firearms world, I believe they cryogenically (i.e., cool to some
ridiculously low temperature like -250 deg.F) treat fancy gun barrels to
improve accuracy. The treatment relieves the internal (fabricating)
stresses of the metal and results in a more stable material.

Jacques
js...@ix.netcom.com

Michael John Hide

unread,
Jul 24, 1997, 3:00:00 AM7/24/97
to

So is it the same as annealing ,relieving all internal stresses ?
Is it done for the benefit of the blade teeth or to relieve stresses
due to sharpening in the blade body ? I realise the stresses need to
be relieved to stabilize the blade but how does this effect the blade
strength ? supposing that there is no change in chemical of mechanical
properties so it must involve the realignment of the molecular
structure ,I still dont know how it improves strength .
I do know that in the high artic that "blue" ice ,that which is
several seasons old is much harder than new ice and has a tendancy to
break icebreakers .I dont understand that reasoning either .
Perhaps its all black majic mjh

hau...@mbi.org

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Jul 24, 1997, 3:00:00 AM7/24/97
to

In article <19970723021...@ladder01.news.aol.com> ftsh...@aol.com (FT SHOOTER) writes:
>From: ftsh...@aol.com (FT SHOOTER)

>Subject: Re: Freud vs Forrest
>Date: 23 Jul 1997 02:14:55 GMT

>I buy my Ghutto blades from Bills Sharpening service in Comstock
>Park,Mi..As to the cryo.treatment,it realines


"Realines"?

the metalurgical structure of
>the metal,and increases it's wear resistance,Thus,it will extend the
>useful time between sharpenings,and make the metals much tougher.

Apparently these guys know something that nobody else does! Wow, I better get
some Ghuttos!

Rich
Just say amazing what people will believe

Larry Jaques

unread,
Jul 24, 1997, 3:00:00 AM7/24/97
to

ftsh...@aol.com (FT SHOOTER) wrote:

>I buy my Ghutto blades from Bills Sharpening service in Comstock

>Park,Mi..As to the cryo.treatment,it realinesthe metalurgical structure of


>the metal,and increases it's wear resistance,Thus,it will extend the
>useful time between sharpenings,and make the metals much tougher.

Michigan, huh? So, does he oil 'em before he tosses 'em in the
snowbank...er, Cryo Treatment Center? <g>

----------------------------------------------------------------
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* meaning * http://diversify.com/ljaques
* "death by music" *
----------------------------------------------------------------

Michael John Hide

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Jul 24, 1997, 3:00:00 AM7/24/97
to

gwa...@cv.hp.com (Gary Watts) wrote:

>Michael John Hide (mike...@mindspring.com) wrote:
>: >In the firearms world, I believe they cryogenically (i.e., cool to some


>: >ridiculously low temperature like -250 deg.F) treat fancy gun barrels to
>: >improve accuracy. The treatment relieves the internal (fabricating)
>: >stresses of the metal and results in a more stable material.
>: >
>: >Jacques
>: >js...@ix.netcom.com
>: >
>: So is it the same as annealing ,relieving all internal stresses ?
>

>No.
>
>: Is it done for the benefit of the blade teeth or to relieve stresses


>: due to sharpening in the blade body ?
>

>To improve the durability of the teeth.


>
> I realise the stresses need to
>: be relieved to stabilize the blade but how does this effect the blade
>: strength ? supposing that there is no change in chemical of mechanical
>: properties so it must involve the realignment of the molecular
>: structure ,I still dont know how it improves strength .
>

>The molecules are closer together making a denser grain structure. Cryo
>treatments are commonly used on shear blades, dies, punches etc. It's
>also been used for drive train parts, cylinder wall inserts and valves in
>race cars. There are independent companies that do nothing but treat parts.
>
>They even make guitar strings that are cryo treated.
>
>Gary
Gary thanks for the heads up ,I would really like to read up on the
subject ,any text recommendations would be appreciated mjh

FT SHOOTER

unread,
Jul 24, 1997, 3:00:00 AM7/24/97
to

I am not a metalurgical engineer,thus I am forced to take on faith that
which works,and as one of you said, call it magic.I do know that the
technician who does the cryo.for me also travels with a portable
cryo.chamber to Richard Petty's shop to cryo.many different parts for
him,which reduces gear tooth wear and fracture,and is used for many other
high sress parts of the race cars that he builds.Increased service life
for these parts is dramatic.I also have proven that the accuracy potential
for my rifle barrels was much improved.(I need all of the help I can get
in rifle competition,as I am getting older,and not as rock steady as I
once was.)I areadily admit my ignorance of what actually occurs when a
piece of metal is cryo.treated,but am more than pleased with outcome.

Martin Schuessler

unread,
Jul 24, 1997, 3:00:00 AM7/24/97
to

Everyone here is wrong.

MY 120 MegaWatt carbon dioxide laser cuts much longer and leaves
better edges than any of those saw blades. Who cares how expensive it
was. The only drawback is the large crygenic unit required to
cool it. But then again, I can use the liquid helium to treat the saw
blades for my "lesser" saws.

Seriously, folks. This thread is getting ridiculous. We all know
that furniture makers have produced beautiful furniture for
thousands of years (well, maybe the neaderthals' interpretation
of Queen Anne furniture wasn't so impressive). And they used hand
saws which weren't cryogenically treated, used C4 carbide or
anything. Forrest, Ghutto, whatever are very good blades, and if you
can afford them and they make you a better/happier woodworker, fine.
Maybe a Freud blade is good enough. also fine.

Regards,

Martin

P.S.: Sorry for the heavy sarcasm - no personal insult intended.

Gary Watts

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Jul 24, 1997, 3:00:00 AM7/24/97
to

Keith G. Bohn

unread,
Jul 24, 1997, 3:00:00 AM7/24/97
to

Well Colin my good man you just haven't looked hard enough. Wanting
laser? 50 watt, 100 watt, cut through to China? Go to
http://www.waukesha.tec.wi.us/laser.html.

Yes right here in Waukesha, WI, birthplace of Les Paul (bow your head)
we have the latest poop on this soon to be released in a home shop
version. And the best part it'll cortirize (obvious mis-sp?) any wound
before you can sat "slap iron".

Keith Bohn
Bohn & Bonn Design

Colin Montoya-Lewis wrote:
>
> Martin Schuessler wrote:
> >
> > MY 120 MegaWatt carbon dioxide laser cuts much longer and leaves...
>
> Could you recommend a good mail order source for one of these? I
> couldn't find one in my Trendlines catalog. Also, do they make a single
> phase model?
>
> -Colin

Colin Montoya-Lewis

unread,
Jul 24, 1997, 3:00:00 AM7/24/97
to

Jack Zucker

unread,
Jul 25, 1997, 3:00:00 AM7/25/97
to martin.s...@amd.com

Martin Schuessler wrote:
>
> Seriously, folks. This thread is getting ridiculous. We all know
> that furniture makers have produced beautiful furniture for
> thousands of years (well, maybe the neaderthals' interpretation
> of Queen Anne furniture wasn't so impressive). And they used hand
> saws which weren't cryogenically treated, used C4 carbide or
> anything. Forrest, Ghutto, whatever are very good blades, and if you
> can afford them and they make you a better/happier woodworker, fine.
> Maybe a Freud blade is good enough. also fine.
>
> Regards,
>
> Martin

Great point. My original question was regarding whether it was
worthwhile to buy the Forrest over the (seemingly) equivalent Freud. I
detect symptoms of "folklore devotion" occasionally.

At any rate, when I looked at the Forrest blade, it certainly didn't
have the "look" of quality one would associate with a $120 blade. This
is in contrast to another folk legend, the Lie-Nielsen planes which are
incredible in their appearance of quality. (They work damn well too)

-Jaz

Brad Evans

unread,
Jul 25, 1997, 3:00:00 AM7/25/97
to

> Martin Schuessler wrote:
> >
> > MY 120 MegaWatt carbon dioxide laser cuts much longer and leaves...
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^

>
> Could you recommend a good mail order source for one of these? I
> couldn't find one in my Trendlines catalog. Also, do they make a single
> phase model?
>
> -Colin

And which fence is _best_ for this?

Brad

Ed Clarke

unread,
Jul 25, 1997, 3:00:00 AM7/25/97
to

On Fri, 25 Jul 1997 05:10:10 -0700, Brad Evans <bea...@best.com> wrote:
>> Martin Schuessler wrote:
>> > MY 120 MegaWatt carbon dioxide laser cuts much longer and leaves...
> ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
>> Could you recommend a good mail order source for one of these? I
>> couldn't find one in my Trendlines catalog. Also, do they make a single

Search the Web; I found a surplus 35kw output CO2 laser but it uses
three phase 440 volts for power. I was thinking of using it as a
burglar alarm. Burglar come in, vanishes in a puff of smoke which
sets off my smoke detector which wakes me up ...

Dale Johnson

unread,
Jul 25, 1997, 3:00:00 AM7/25/97
to

How could you even think of buying anything but a Amada Ni purge 2 kw
745.

Their CAM control system seamlessly interfaces with Pro - E, which
everyone knows is the only home shop CAD system worth consideration.

The Amada will cut full sheets and has an auto nesting feature that will
save you all kinds of scrap. It runs so quitely you neighbors will
hardly know it's there

Just trying to be funny - but I wonder if the wife would let me spring
for this $450,000 wonder. Plus another 30 - 40k for Pro-E and a work
station to run it on.


> > > MY 120 MegaWatt carbon dioxide laser cuts much longer and leaves...
> ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
> >
> > Could you recommend a good mail order source for one of these? I

> > couldn't find one in my Trendlines catalog. Also, do they make a > >single phase model?

FT SHOOTER

unread,
Jul 25, 1997, 3:00:00 AM7/25/97
to

A high powered air rifle works fine for me.

Thomas A. Gauldin

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Jul 25, 1997, 3:00:00 AM7/25/97
to

On Fri, 25 Jul 1997 09:29:25 -0700, Dale Johnson <da...@sequent.com>
wrote:

>Just trying to be funny - but I wonder if the wife would let me spring
>for this $450,000 wonder. Plus another 30 - 40k for Pro-E and a work
>station to run it on.
>

<