QUESTION - aniline dyes (water based)
Jack-of-all-trades
http://groups.google.com/advanced_group_search If I could, perhaps I
would not have to ask.
I am continuing my experementing with coloring/painting. Got
everything I needed on colring paint, then read an article on aniline
dyes and got curious.
I would like responses just from people who have actual experience
using them. And, again, if you would be embarassed by posting your
response here, you can e-mail me.
I have decided on just water soluble dyes, because water is
normally toxic, and I am trhying to use as much non-toxic stuff as I
can.
Now the gist of it. Can you "paint" designs with this, as is
possible with paint? Or would you have to finish a whole section of
wood? I ask, because the wooden banks I make are made by following a
pattern with a router and then the fronts have hand-painted designs. If
I cannot use the aniline dyes to paint these designes, they would
basically be of no use to me. I do not dye, color, or paint most other
projects, so would not use the dyes there either.
I have never used these dyes before, so don't know if they would
run/bleed or not. I am thining they might. If that is the case, that
would probably prevent their use by me.
I will be keeping track here, so prefer responses on the group. If
you respond on the group, then many people get the benefit of the info,
and not just one person.
Thanks.
Later
JOAT
EXPENSE DEPENDS ON WHAT YOU ARE ASSIGNING VALUES TO.
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Mike G.
Anilines would probably not be a medium you'd want to use in the
circumstances you are describing.
As a dye, they contain no pigments and depend on soaking into the wood
cells. While they provide wonderful clarity and really pop the grain I
suspect that the result of "painting" with them would be a pretty blurry
representation of what ever you were painting since the dye would tend to
soak outwards from where they are applied.
Hope it helps
--
Mike G.
Heirloom Woods
Weymouth Ma.
http://heirloom-woods.net
Contact
mi...@heirloom-woods.net
mj...@mediaone.net
"Jack-of-all-trades" <Jakofal...@webtv.net> wrote in message
news:24570-3B...@storefull-281.iap.bryant.webtv.net...
Howard
> Anilines would probably not be a medium you'd want to use in the
> circumstances you are describing.
>
> As a dye, they contain no pigments and depend on soaking into the wood
> cells
JOAT,
Aniline dyes are wonderful and I use them every chance I get. They do have
pigment, it is just disolved pigment instead of solid pigment carried in an
emulsion. For this resaon, they penetrate the surface and soak into the
underlying wood fibres rather than forming a film on the surface. This
means that they bleed and sharp edges are impossible unless you are inlaying
with precolored wood. For this reason, Mike is absolutely right - they are
not what you want. You want something that will form a film so that when
masked, you will get a nice edge.
--
Cheers,
Howard
----------------------------------------------------------
Working wood in New Jersey - use...@ruttan.com
Visit me in the woodshop - www.ruttan.com/woodshop/
Jack-of-all-trades
being able to access the archives, don't know what is causing it.
mike hide
would want a paint to paint at least a stain with lots of pigment. Analines
are usefull however for tinting purposes .
Water stains have excellent clarity in particular analines because they have
no pigment .Of course one drawback of water stains is they raise the grain
.If you insist on using water stains then it will be necessary wet the
surface with water ,let it dry and resand .I would do this procedure at
least twice preferably three times before using the stain.
Analines also come in alcohol and laquer versions ,these really reduce the
grain raising problem .A draw back though is if the final finish used
[laquer or alcohol ] contains any component used in the stain or a thinner
for the stain then they could "clot" ,meaning the stain migrates into clumps
under the finish . mjh
"Jack-of-all-trades" <Jakofal...@webtv.net> wrote in message
news:24570-3B...@storefull-281.iap.bryant.webtv.net...
Gerald Lamb
>Mike G responds...
>> Anilines would probably not be a medium you'd want to use in the
>> circumstances you are describing.
>>
>> As a dye, they contain no pigments and depend on soaking into the wood
>> cells
>
>JOAT,
>
>Aniline dyes are wonderful and I use them every chance I get. They do have
>pigment, it is just disolved pigment instead of solid pigment carried in an
>emulsion. For this resaon, they penetrate the surface and soak into the
>underlying wood fibres rather than forming a film on the surface. This
>means that they bleed and sharp edges are impossible unless you are inlaying
>with precolored wood. For this reason, Mike is absolutely right - they are
>not what you want. You want something that will form a film so that when
>masked, you will get a nice edge.
Also I would not call them nontoxic anilines are coal tar derivatives
and contain heavy metals.Good color but they do tend to lift the
grain. Tinker a source. www.constantines.com
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Mike G.
> and contain heavy metals.Good color but they do tend to lift the
> grain. Tinker a source. www.constantines.com
>
As a side note, while there is no way of telling what is which and while
the original anilines developed in Germany in the late 1800 were from coal
tar, the above is no longer necessarily true. We've come a long way since
then.
Of course that doesn't mean that what ever they are made of today is
completely non toxic I'm willing to bet they are far less toxic then coal
tars. Hell, too much of almost anything could be toxic.
John Dazzio
You used the dyes with stencils adhered, temporarily, to the wood. Using a
concentrated dye solution with a sponge type applicator, lightly dabbed over
the areas to color might work nicely. Using a tight grain wood like maple
might be more effective then something like oak. Could be pretty neat. If
you do try it, let us know.
John
"Jack-of-all-trades" <Jakofal...@webtv.net> wrote in message
news:24570-3B...@storefull-281.iap.bryant.webtv.net...
Bannerstone
commented "anyline dyes are a coal tar derivitive." She explained that hair
dyes used to be made of this base and but they were banned many years ago.
Obviously there was some concern of toxic effect, it would be worth a search.
David
In article <24570-3B...@storefull-281.iap.bryant.webtv.net>,
Jakofal...@webtv.net says...
Gary Thomas
Gary
Bannerstone
>
>Coal tar dyes are considered carcinogenic.
>
>Gary
Thanks Gary,
I wasn't sure so I didn't want to say.
That was petty cool though how that guy made cherry countertop look like black
marble. I always think of that when people say "You don't stain cherry."
David
Ed Foster
Bannerstone <Bannersto...@newsguy.com> wrote:
> I was showing my mom a pic of a cherry project finished with anyline dye and
> she
> commented "anyline dyes are a coal tar derivitive." She explained that hair
> dyes used to be made of this base and but they were banned many years ago.
> Obviously there was some concern of toxic effect, it would be worth a search.
According to Bob Flexner in his book "Understanding Wood Finishing"
"Certain aniline dyes, specifically those containing benzidine, have
beeen linked to bladder cancer. To my knowledge none of the dyes
available to the woodworking trade contain these possible carcinogens.
and
"Almost all modern dyes used in woodworking are derived from a family of
chemicals called aromatic amines, the simplest of which is aniline. It
is conventional in woodworking to call all of these dyes 'aniline dyes.'"
mitch
line - or - scratch-carve an outline before dying.
Mitch
Jack-of-all-trades <Jakofal...@webtv.net> wrote in message
news:24570-3B...@storefull-281.iap.bryant.webtv.net...
NOSPAMBOB
http://www.homesteadfinishing.com/
In article <9q4ss...@drn.newsguy.com>, Bannerstone
<Bannersto...@newsguy.com> writes:
>Obviously there was some concern of toxic effect, it would be worth a search
Name works for E-mail
P. Fishbein
although you can make a stain that contains both dyes and pigments, Minwax
for example. Pigments do not dissolve in their medium whereas dyes do. You
could remove pigments from a pigment stain by filtration, as slow or
impractical as it may be. This can not be done with dye stains as dye
stains are solutions. Pigment stains are suspensions. Think of dyes as
table salt and pigments as sand. The salt dissolves in water but not the
sand. A dye particle is actually a molecule and a pigment particle is a
conglomerate of usually inorganic compounds.
Good Luck.
"Howard" <use...@ruttan.com> wrote in message
news:Jm7x7.118987$5A3.35...@news1.rdc2.pa.home.com...
Mike G.
Take care
--
Mike G.
Heirloom Woods
Weymouth Ma.
http://heirloom-woods.net
Contact
mi...@heirloom-woods.net
mj...@mediaone.net
"P. Fishbein" <pf...@voicenet.com> wrote in message
news:lSKx7.364$Op2....@news2.voicenet.com...
Mikkel Brams
> Perhaps to control bleed, you could score the wood and dye up to the score
> line - or - scratch-carve an outline before dying.
>
> Mitch
>
> Jack-of-all-trades <Jakofal...@webtv.net> wrote in message
> news:24570-3B...@storefull-281.iap.bryant.webtv.net...
> > For some unknown reason I am now not able to access the archives.
> > http://groups.google.com/advanced_group_search If I could, perhaps I
> > would not have to ask.
> > I am continuing my experementing with coloring/painting. Got
> > everything I needed on colring paint, then read an article on aniline
> > dyes and got curious.
JOAT,
Perhaps you can benefit from the experience of silk "painters" who use
(mainly) fiber-reactive aniline dyestuffs to great and varied artistic
effect. I imagine the chemistry is similar at the molecular level, so
the practical issue is the same: how to control (or let go of...) the
physical flow of the liquid dye.
The control freaks use a barrier method and "paint" only inside an
outline drawing (cloisonnee). Each colour panel in the drawing is
usually enclosed with a fine line of a natural rubber called gutta
(gutta percha, applied in semi-liquid form) which penetrates the
fabric and is usually removed in later processing. I'm not sure how
you would achieve a gutta barrier that reaches below the surface layer
of a wooden substrate, but you might combine it with the scratch
outline idea.
If you choose to let go of all that worry altogether, you can allow
diffrent colours to flow together, like in water colouring, which
opens up a whole other world.
Or you can do both, depending on your mood...
Let us know how it goes.