I have a screw driver question

[Leon]

For those of you that actually own a Posi Drive screw driver, do you
find that it works better than a Philips screw driver on Posi Drive
screws? Better enough to make the purchase? I install hundreds of Euro
style hinges and of course the adjustment screws are Posi Drive. I am
tired of the sloppy fit.

And FWIW a great brand of screw driver is the Wera brand and they are my
favorite. They hold the screw well. I especially like the small
straight blade driver for the set screws on the Festool Track extension
bars. This screw driver holds the screw so well that you can feel the
shaft twist after the screw gets tight. Conversely you can feel the
shaft twist until the screw breaks loose.

[k...@notreal.com]

On Tue, 7 Sep 2021 18:02:52 -0500, Leon <lcb11211@swbelldotnet> wrote:

>For those of you that actually own a Posi Drive screw driver, do you
>find that it works better than a Philips screw driver on Posi Drive
>screws? Better enough to make the purchase? I install hundreds of Euro
>style hinges and of course the adjustment screws are Posi Drive. I am
>tired of the sloppy fit.

Use the right tool for the job. You're going to screw up both the
driver and the screw.

>
>And FWIW a great brand of screw driver is the Wera brand and they are my
>favorite. They hold the screw well. I especially like the small
>straight blade driver for the set screws on the Festool Track extension
>bars. This screw driver holds the screw so well that you can feel the
>shaft twist after the screw gets tight. Conversely you can feel the
>shaft twist until the screw breaks loose.

Nice blades but I can't stand the handles.

[DerbyDad03]

On Tuesday, September 7, 2021 at 7:03:01 PM UTC-4, Leon wrote:
> For those of you that actually own a Posi Drive screw driver, do you
> find that it works better than a Philips screw driver on Posi Drive
> screws? Better enough to make the purchase? I install hundreds of Euro
> style hinges and of course the adjustment screws are Posi Drive. I am
> tired of the sloppy fit.

It's Pozidriv.

Yes, they work better than a Philips on Pozidriv screws and thus
they work better than a Phillips on Euro style hinges.

I still have the VACO #1 and #2 that I had to buy back in the late 80's when
HP (or was it Sun?) stated using Pozidrive screws on their equipment.
The dark orange handles set them apart from the rest of my screwdrivers.

[DJ Delorie]

I don't know about Posi Drive (other than "yes, use the right tool for
the job"), but I've switched to using Japanese ISO #2 crosspoint
screwdrivers instead of phillips because they seem to fit better and
won't cam out as easily. So if phillips screwdrivers aren't the best
tool for phillips screws, they certainly aren't the best tool for
non-phillips screws.

Phillips screwdrivers seem to be uniquely designed to destroy the screw
they're supposed to be used with.

[pyotr filipivich]

DJ Delorie <d...@delorie.com> on Wed, 08 Sep 2021 00:26:43 -0400 typed
in rec.woodworking the following:

They do cam out easily. Which I understand is considered by some
a good thing in production: the screw stops, does not strip the hole,
'who cares about removing it?'.
--
pyotr filipivich
This Week's Panel: Us & Them - Eliminating Them.
Next Month's Panel: Having eliminated the old Them(tm)
Selecting who insufficiently Woke(tm) as to serve as the new Them(tm)

[Bill]

On 9/8/2021 9:53 AM, pyotr filipivich wrote:
> DJ Delorie <d...@delorie.com> on Wed, 08 Sep 2021 00:26:43 -0400 typed
> in rec.woodworking the following:
>>
>> I don't know about Posi Drive (other than "yes, use the right tool for
>> the job"), but I've switched to using Japanese ISO #2 crosspoint
>> screwdrivers instead of phillips because they seem to fit better and
>> won't cam out as easily. So if phillips screwdrivers aren't the best
>> tool for phillips screws, they certainly aren't the best tool for
>> non-phillips screws.
>>
>> Phillips screwdrivers seem to be uniquely designed to destroy the screw
>> they're supposed to be used with.
>
> They do cam out easily.

I'm glad to hear it's not just my "technique"! On the few occasions
where I have used an impact driver on them, I got far better results
than manually--maybe since the connection to the screw was "more
sure/stable".

[Joe Gwinn]

Camming out to prevent stripping was exactly the intent of the Philips
screwdriver system, as stated in their patents. Think automobile
production line. The various cross-point screw systems that don't cam
out as easily were also intended to outmaneuver the Philips patents -
they needed a different problem to solve.

Impact transmits the shock before camming can occur.

One way to prevent cam-out on mangled screw heads is to smear the
screwdriver tip with fine valve-grinding compound - the grit locks
driver to screw, preventing slipping.

Now we have controlled-torque screwdrivers, and camming out slows
production down. Thus Torx.

Joe Gwinn

[Leon]

On 9/7/2021 7:39 PM, k...@notreal.com wrote:
> On Tue, 7 Sep 2021 18:02:52 -0500, Leon <lcb11211@swbelldotnet> wrote:
>
>> For those of you that actually own a Posi Drive screw driver, do you
>> find that it works better than a Philips screw driver on Posi Drive
>> screws? Better enough to make the purchase? I install hundreds of Euro
>> style hinges and of course the adjustment screws are Posi Drive. I am
>> tired of the sloppy fit.
>
> Use the right tool for the job. You're going to screw up both the
> driver and the screw.

Well I have been adjusting these Euro hinges for 30 + years now. No
worse for wear when simply making adjustments but as you say, right too
for the job.

[Leon]

In most cases the Phillips screw drivers seem to crap out and do a bad
job. BUT those Wera Phillips head screw drivers fit like a glove and do
not slip. The laser etched and coated tips probably help significantly.

[Leon]

Most screw drivers have crap quality and the ends wear and slip early on.
The Wera brand I mentioned above get used more than any other brand in
my box. And each fits the screw like new. Compare the tips of your
screw drivers to a new screw driver and you may see the problem.

[whit3rd]

On Tuesday, September 7, 2021 at 4:03:01 PM UTC-7, Leon wrote:
> For those of you that actually own a Posi Drive screw driver, do you
> find that it works better than a Philips screw driver on Posi Drive
> screws?

Oh, yeah. The Pozidrive marking on screw heads, four rays (radial direction)
is what to look for; feel of the fit of the tip in the screw is better by far.

<https://bike.bikegremlin.com/10583/phillips-vs-jis-vs-pozidriv/>

Pozidrive drive surfaces are parallel to the axis, you don't need to press the
bit into the head as much as with Philips.

The JIS screw heads have a marking of one dot, I wish I had the right
screwdrivers for those, as well.

[DJ Delorie]

whit3rd <whi...@gmail.com> writes:
> The JIS screw heads have a marking of one dot, I wish I had the right
> screwdrivers for those, as well.

https://www.amazon.com/Vessel-Megadora-900-Screwdriver-Original/dp/B000TG8OTY

[pyotr filipivich]

Leon <lcb11211@swbelldotnet> on Wed, 8 Sep 2021 12:39:18 -0500 typed
in rec.woodworking the following:

Cheap screwdrivers are cheap tools regardless of the tip design.

[Leon]

Wow! Great link and the JIS drivers apparently work well in JIS and
Philips screws.

I do know that the Wera Philips drivers do work very well in Philips
screws. I need to buy the Posidrive Wera too.

Thanks!

[Leon]

On 9/7/2021 7:39 PM, k...@notreal.com wrote:

Just curious, what do you find wrong with the handles? I have
relatively large hands and they fill my hand so I do appreciate that.

[k...@notreal.com]

They just feel odd. The large diameter is on the middle and ring
fingers rather than the index, where my power is. I'd prefer the
handles to be straight so I can use all fingers to grasp them. IOW,
like all other screwdrivers. Different <> better.

[k...@notreal.com]

On Wed, 08 Sep 2021 21:17:29 -0700, pyotr filipivich
<ph...@mindspring.com> wrote:

>Leon <lcb11211@swbelldotnet> on Wed, 8 Sep 2021 12:39:18 -0500 typed
>in rec.woodworking the following:
>>On 9/7/2021 11:26 PM, DJ Delorie wrote:
>>>
>>> I don't know about Posi Drive (other than "yes, use the right tool for
>>> the job"), but I've switched to using Japanese ISO #2 crosspoint
>>> screwdrivers instead of phillips because they seem to fit better and
>>> won't cam out as easily. So if phillips screwdrivers aren't the best
>>> tool for phillips screws, they certainly aren't the best tool for
>>> non-phillips screws.
>>>
>>> Phillips screwdrivers seem to be uniquely designed to destroy the screw
>>> they're supposed to be used with.
>>>
>>
>>
>>
>>In most cases the Phillips screw drivers seem to crap out and do a bad
>>job. BUT those Wera Phillips head screw drivers fit like a glove and do
>>not slip. The laser etched and coated tips probably help significantly.
>
> Cheap screwdrivers are cheap tools regardless of the tip design.

It's not easy to find hardened tip on screwdrivers anymore. Some are
better than others but the ones with the hardened tips and more
ductile (not sure that's the right word) shanks are hard to find. I
have some old ones, even Craftsman, that are much better than what I
see today.

[Leon]

Can't fault what feel right to you. Most straight handle drivers don't
seem to fill my fist. It seems to "me" that most of my gripping is done
with my first and last finger on straight handles.

[Leon]

Yeah, it seems that any of the old stand by brands you know are crap
these days.

I "think" some of the "mostly trades" brands are still good but if they
are aimed at the home consumer, Craftsman, Milwaukee, etc, = sub par.

I think the better screw drivers that you might find in the big box
stores will not be in the regular hand tool section. Look in the
electrical area, at Klein.

[k...@notreal.com]

The ones I see now have a painted black tip to mimic the hardened tip
of a good driver. I'd buy them online and pay $$ for goo ones but with
the typical painted tip, who knows what you're getting?

>I think the better screw drivers that you might find in the big box
>stores will not be in the regular hand tool section. Look in the
>electrical area, at Klein.

Klein is good but I'm only seen #2 Phillips and 1/4" (?) flat drivers,
used in electrical work. I'd like to have a more complete set, with
square and torx drivers.

[Leon]

https://www.amazon.com/stores/page/2C6C2438-A724-46CE-8156-09AEED8E0DCA/?_encoding=UTF8&store_ref=SB_A02383783RTX9EAW2LR1F&pd_rd_plhdr=t&aaxitk=9807251f475fa48db066e24ba534656c&hsa_cr_id=7961775520701&lp_asins=B0015SBILG%2CB01EOY7LTA%2CB07W7VCQK3&lp_query=klein&lp_slot=auto-sparkle-hsa-tetris&ref_=sbx_be_s_sparkle_mcd_cta&pd_rd_w=u7EBc&pf_rd_p=488a18be-6d86-4de0-8607-bd4ea4b560f3&pd_rd_wg=irLvD&pf_rd_r=PYEK0W07BJSKGDABE05M&pd_rd_r=e6fb89eb-f1cc-4e3a-a4d7-023132eaa698

[Scott Lurndal]

Leon <lcb11211@swbelldotnet> writes:
>On 9/9/2021 3:50 PM, k...@notreal.com wrote:

>> It's not easy to find hardened tip on screwdrivers anymore. Some are
>> better than others but the ones with the hardened tips and more
>> ductile (not sure that's the right word) shanks are hard to find. I
>> have some old ones, even Craftsman, that are much better than what I
>> see today.
>>
>
>
>Yeah, it seems that any of the old stand by brands you know are crap
>these days.

I'm quite happy with my 30 year old Vermont American; perfect size,
quality tips, feel good in the handles.

Flea markets and antique stores are good sources for quality older
handtools.

[Leon]

I have some Penncrest and Craftsman screw drivers. I bought the
Penncrest in 1972....
Penncrest was the brand of too that JC Penney sold when they sold
everything. I even have their socket sets and cannot fault them.

But still the Wera screwdrivers are what I reach for now. Those are
about 10 years old.


And on another note Kudo's to California for mandating school kids to be
vaccinated!

[Scott Lurndal]

Yeah, smallpox and polio were eliminated using early childhood vaccination;
here's hoping we can do the same with the various SARS variants.

Here's a proposed Itinerary for your California trip :-)

Day 1: Arrive San Diego. Check in to Hotel Del Coronado for
two night stay. Dinner in La Jolla, walk Shell Beach
at dusk.

Day 2: Visit the San Diego Zoo (remember Joan Embry?). Visit
and tour the Midway. Visit Sea World. Golf at Torry
Pines (I like the south course). Take the light rail
down to Tijuana.

Day 3: Head north on Interstate 5 along the coast; stop and
enjoy lunch at Dana Point Harbor. See the swallows
at San Clemente. Check into the Bonaventura in downtown
LA for three nights.

Day 4-5:
Disneyland. Knotts Berry Farm. Universal Studios.
Griffith Park. Redondo Beach. Santa Monica Pier.
The Huntington Museum. The Getty museum. Hollywood.
Griffith Park Observatory. Catch a dodger game at
Chavez ravine. See a show at the Hollywood bowl.
Shop Rodeo Drive in Bevery Hills. Take a see the
stars homes tour. Take Mulholland drive to the coast.

Have Dim Sum for lunch in Monterey Park.

Visit the fashion district in downtown LA.

Dinner at Gladstones for Fish (Pacific Palisades, at
the beach end of Sunset Blvd). [back in the 1980s,
they had this huge lobster in a tank with a pseudo
auction - Mary Tyler Moore had bid to save the lobster,
Rush Limbaugh had bid to eat it].

Take a day trip to Palm Springs and ride the aerial tramway.

Take the Mt. Baldy ski lift (summertime) to the trailhead
for Mt. San Antonio (el: 10,000 ft).

Play golf at Wilson in Griffith Park (don't let the
trumpeting of the elephants or lions at the neighboring
LA Zoo bother your backstroke). Watch out for the
ball-stealing squirrels.

Drive the Angeles Crest Highway from La Canada to the
Mount Wilson Observatory (on a clear day, you can see
Catalina Island). Take a boat from Long Beach or San
Pedro to Catalina.


Day 5: Head north to Santa Barbara on Highway 101. Spend the
night.

Day 6: Head north on Highway 1 (PCH - Pacific Coast Highway) to
Avila Beach. Stay at the Avila La Fonda (or, just a bit
south at the Cliffs resort). Enjoy the beaches. Rent a
four-wheeler and explore Pismo Beach.

Day 7: Head north to San Simeon. Take one (or more) of the four
Hearst Mansion tours. Stay overnight in San Simeon or
Cambria.

Day 8-9: Head north on PCH to Carmel-by-the-Sea. Dinner in
downtown Carmel. Stay in Carmel or Monterey. Tour
the 17-mile drive and stop at the Pebble Beach clubhouse.
Visit the Monterey Bay Aquarium (where Star Trek IV was
filmed). Go on a whale watching cruise. Have abalone
at Abolonettis at the Wharf. Visit Cannery Row.

Day 10-12: Head north on PCH to San Francisco. Stop at the Santa
Cruz beach boardwalk along the way. Visit the redwoods at
Big Basin state park (recovering from a fire).

In the City, Ride a cable car.
Visit the twin peaks lookout. Visit Coit Tower. Go to a
Giants baseball game. Have lunch at Fisherman's Wharf.
Have Dinner at McCormick and Kuleto's at Ghiradelli Square
(don't forget the Chocolate for desert). Walk across the
Golden Gate Bridge. Take the Ferry to Alcatraz or
Angel Island. Have lunch in Sausalito or Tiburon via a Ferry. Shop
Union Square. Explore Chinatown. It's a great town to walk,
even with the hills.

One can eat at a different restaurant every day in SF and
-never- eat at the same restaurant. Try Henry's Hunan by
the Moscone convention center. Try the Marines' Memorial
Association club near Union Square if you're a vet. North
beach has excellent Italian restaurants. See a concert at
the Warfield or the Filmore.

Day 13-14: Travel north to Napa and Sonoma counties and taste wine
(BV in Oakville is one of my favorites - check out the
"other" tasting room (not free) where you can buy a flight
of the Georges de Latour private reserve for a nominal fee).
Plenty of places to stay. Stop at the Marin Headlands
(first exit on the north side of the GG bridge) and check
out the views (and some nice trails) on the way to Napa.

Day 15: Head north on PCH to Fort Bragg for an overnight in a BnB.

Day 16: Continue north through Humboldt and Mendocino counties through
the redwoods (there's actually one tree you can drive _through_
on the way north). Visit ferndale, stay overnight in Eureka.

Day 17: Head east on highway 299 along the Trinity river. Stop and
take the tour at the Shasta Dam. Rent a houseboat for a
couple of nights at Shasta or Trinity reservoirs. Side trip
to Mt Shasta.

Day 18: Head west on highway 299 to Alturas. Stay overnight.
Stop at Lassen Volcanic National Park along the way.

Day 19-20: Head south on US highway 395 through the Great Basin
down to highway 70; Cross the Sierra Nevada on highway
70 along the Feather River (beautiful drive). Take 89
south to Truckee and then Tahoe city. Stay overnight
in South Lake tahoe. Visit the casinos. Drive around
the Lake. Take the Ski Lift at Heavenly. Take a side
trip to Virginia City in Nevada.

Day 21-22: Resume southward journey on US395, stop at Bodie State
historic Park (ghost town). Continue to Mono Lake and
overnight in Lee Vining. Take Highway 120 west across
the Tioga Pass through Yosemite. Stops along the way
at Tioga Lake, Tuolome Meadows, Olmstead point, terminating in Yosemite
Valley (stay at the Ahwanee Hotel in the heart of the valley).

Day 23: Explore Yosemite Valley (the waterfalls are best in the spring,
mostly dry in the fall).

Day 24: Head south on 41 to Fresno; then east to Sequioa and
Kings Canyon national parks. Stay in Bakersfield
(where all 50,000 people who actually voted for Kevin
McCarthy live :-). Head north east to Death Valley.

Day 25: Continue east to Las Vegas. Fly home.

[Leon]

WOW !! THANK YOU Scott. I will take all of that under advisement! We
drive everywhere now days. Flying is faster but we are in no rush and
the airport thing has been a hassle since 911.

I have not read all of that yet but are any of those locations near you?
Or were you steering me away from your neck of the woods? LOL

[Leon]

Whew! I read all of that. Now I'm tired!

But seriousely, THANK YOU.

You have taken the, where do we go in California, out of the wonderment.

I do not know when we will be traveling again but I think it is great
that our leaders are finally taking steps to shut this virus problem
down, and or lead those that don't know any better in the right direction.

BUT in the next couple of years we will likely be heading in that direction.

Thanks again!

[Scott Lurndal]

The locations stretch from the Mexican border to the Oregon Border, and from
the Pacific Ocean to the Nevada border (and into Nevada for a few
miles).

Basically, it is a clockwise route around the entire state; up
the coast and down the Sierra Nevada. High desert, low desert,
coastal plains, coastal mountains, alpine lakes, redwoods, wineries, pretty
much everthing except the San Joachin valley (although both Fresno
and Bakersfield are in the SJV).

When you drive from Monterey to Santa Cruz, you'll be about 15 miles
away from my place (in santa clara county wine country).

[Scott Lurndal]

Leon <lcb11211@swbelldotnet> writes:
>Whew! I read all of that. Now I'm tired!
>
>But seriousely, THANK YOU.
>
>You have taken the, where do we go in California, out of the wonderment.

You are welcome. I see I left out Gold Country completely. Well, that will
fit after Yosemite, just head to highway 49 from 41 after visiting Yosemite and
go north to Nevada City. Will add a couple of days plus some backtracking,
but you can backtrack through Sacramento (Capitol, Riverfront, California Railway
Museum - has a nice Cab-forward Southern Pacific steamer and offers
steam train rides). At Jamestown on highway 49, there is another railway
museum.

The 395 corridor south of highway 120 is scenic and passes Mammoth Mountain
ski resort, but I couldn't fit it in without backtracking.

[Leon]

And yet, you did not mention to stop by your house. :~)

[Bob Davis]

I got pretty disgusted with every brand of phillips screwdriver I owned. Out of sheer desparation, I bought a set of Husky "diamond tip" screwdrivers. The tips are some kind of hardened surface with a gritty finish. These suckers do not slip. They are the best I have used in a long time and I've been using them daily for a year. The big dislike is that the shafts are square. They do not work for spinning a screw out after you've initially broken it loose. The flat blades are good, too.

[Puckdropper]

Leon <lcb11211@swbelldotnet> wrote in
news:AOadnbAcBsQpaKX8...@giganews.com:

>
> Most screw drivers have crap quality and the ends wear and slip early
> on. The Wera brand I mentioned above get used more than any other
> brand in my box. And each fits the screw like new. Compare the tips
> of your screw drivers to a new screw driver and you may see the
> problem.
>

I hope someone brings this thread up again in a few years to resurrect this
post! It is bang on!

Screwdriver tips are disposable, treat them like it!

Know what tips are suspiciously good? The ones they include with portable
drill/drivers. They just seem to stay nice for so long--even as they're
being used!

Puckdropper

[ritzann...@gmail.com]

On Friday, September 10, 2021 at 10:14:25 AM UTC-5, Leon wrote:

> I have some Penncrest and Craftsman screw drivers. I bought the
> Penncrest in 1972....
> Penncrest was the brand of too that JC Penney sold when they sold
> everything. I even have their socket sets and cannot fault them.
>

Did JC Penney sell everything like Sears did? Back when both were still going concerns and the main/prevalent big stores. Back in the 1980s I lived where there was a mall close by. It had a Sears and JC Penney store. And a Radio Shack and arcade that took quarters. I know the JC Penney carried clothes. I remember that. And Sears carried everything. Especially tools. But I don't recall what JC Penney carried. I can't remember walking around the whole store and looking at everything. I know the mens/boys clothes and shoes/sneakers were right in the front doors on the right side. I was just a teenager so the things I wanted and interested in were somewhat limited.

[Bill]

I don't remember seeing any tools at any JC Penny. The Sears catalog
even had sporting goods too, but I don't remember any in their store. Of
course, surely you know how far back the Sears catalog goes--it was an
important "institution". Having mostly clothes (ha) and other textiles,
JC Penny's catalog was not as interesting to me. Montgomery Wards had
some tools. Sears has declared bankruptcy at least twice; I'm not sure
if it still exists in some contexts, but I suspect that it may.

[k...@notreal.com]

Yes, I remember JC Penney selling tools but at a much lower value
point as Sears. Sorta what Crapsman is now. Yes, they once sold
about everything but were a shadow of Sears, even at that time. Both
of the Christmas catalogs were prized possessions. ;-)

[J. Clarke]

On Sat, 11 Sep 2021 19:36:38 -0700 (PDT), "russell...@yahoo.com"
<ritzann...@gmail.com> wrote:

They didn't sell everything in the same sense as Sears, which had
houses and aircraft in their catalog at one time. But their stores
stocked pretty much the same range of stuff. My Dad had something
against Sears that he never explained--he would go to Penneys for
tools. I remember when our American Standard oil furnace died we
replaced it with one from Penneys (note--when I say "we" I mean my Dad
and me--we did all our own work).

[Leon]

JC Penney in Corpus Christi, TX in the late 60's and 70's was very much
like Sears.
The old store prior to the one at the mall was strictly clothing.


Ours had a separate 6~8 bay shop and tire center too. There was a tool
department, appliances sporting goods IIRC, maybe that was Dillards with
the sporting goods and lawn equipment. Yes even Dillards was similar to
a Sears too. and that was the first Dillards in Corpus.

And both of the stores were the flagship stores on opposite ends of the
new mall.

[Leon]

My JC Penny screwdrivers and sockets sets are still working. I saw no
difference even today between the quality of the Craftsman And Penncraft
screwdrivers.

I have both brands of ratchets and sockets. I used to qualify monthly
for sales volume and received credits towards items in a catalog.
I often ordered Craftsman tools and gave them to my employees. I ended
up with a set.

To this day I much prefer the action of the Penncraft ratchets over the
Craftsman.
The Craftsman ratchets have that nice button to release the socket but I
was forever bumping the direction lever and having to switch it back. I
never has an issue with the Penncraft ratchet.

[k...@notreal.com]

On Sun, 12 Sep 2021 10:18:05 -0500, Leon <lcb11211@swbelldotnet>
wrote:

I have one of the Craftsman fine-tooth 3/8" drive with the thumbwheel
and release button. It beats every other drive I've used. I think
I've had it close to fifty years too. It holds the sockets really well
(the button unlocks the ball so it can't come loose without pushing
the button). If anything, the direction is too hard to set