What's so good about pre-war Stanley and Record planes?
Fred Johnson
My son is about to commence a four year fine woodworking course and has
just received a list of tools which he has to buy. This list includes a
No6 and a No4 pre-war Stanley or Record plane.
Can any of you fine woodworkers tell me what's so good about pre-war
planes?
I presume it would be a metal plane that's required and can only think
that the casting is heavier than more modern planes or is there something
else I'm missing?
Could any of you enlighten me further?
Fred Johnson
fr...@phadfa.ph.adfa.oz.au
god...@spiers.enet.dec.com
Fred,
In article <1994Feb10....@sserve.cc.adfa.oz.au>, Fred Johnson <fr...@phadfa.ph.adfa.oz.au> writes:
>>
>>My son is about to commence a four year fine woodworking course and has
>>just received a list of tools which he has to buy. This list includes a
>>No6 and a No4 pre-war Stanley or Record plane.
>>Can any of you fine woodworkers tell me what's so good about pre-war
>>planes?
would stress relieve the castings before finishing them. I believe the
castings were also stouter as were the adjusting mechanisms.
JimG
Michael Armbruster
apprenticeship or some sort of degree program?
Patrick Leach
|>
Pre-war, and even post-war (up to about the mid-1950's) are better since
they were made better. The castings were allowed to season longer before
they were machined. This prevents warpage. The older planes have heavier
castings, and the ones made during the war are noticeably heavier than any
others. The general finish/machining is better on the older ones, especially
about the frog. The older one are aesthetically better looking, with their
rosewood tote and knob and brass cutter adjusting wheel (the war years used
stained hardwood and hard rubber as substitutes). This is a preference thing,
but I don't like the "feel" of the newer ones - the tote is uncomfortable,
and the plane just seems chintzy. And the best thing of all, the older planes
are cheaper ($-wise) than the new ones.
--
--------------------------------------------------------------------------
Patrick Leach
Just say Older is definitely better than new, in this case.
etc.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------
Ken Colasuonno
: they were made better. The castings were allowed to season longer before
: they were machined. This prevents warpage. The older planes have heavier
: castings, and the ones made during the war are noticeably heavier than any
Can you explain this bit about "seasoning". Not knowing a thing about
metalurgy this seems odd. Season wood is important, but metal? Heck
once it cools, why do you have to wait?
Ken
bui tho xuan
Ditto. Knowing some things about metallurgy (that's my field of
spertease), I still have no idea what it means. How long do they
season these things?
tho
ps: or do you mean season like in pepper and paprika?
Christopher Marshall
>Can you explain this bit about "seasoning". Not knowing a thing about
>metalurgy this seems odd. Season wood is important, but metal? Heck
>once it cools, why do you have to wait?
>
process of cooling castings slowly. When first cast most casting are cooled
rather quickly and because of this may have internal stresses which will
eventually cause the casting to crack. The cure for this is to put the casting
in a furnace and lower the temperature very slowly so that the whole casting
cools at an equal rate. The length of time this takes depends on the size of
the casting.
--
Chris MARSHALL
Digital Equipment Corporation
(opinions are my own)
mars...@migley.mko.dec.com or mars...@eps.mko.dec.com
603-884-1482
Hugh Brown
Re: seasoning cast metal.
In a former lifetime I was a machinist and worked with cast iron and steel. I cannot claim
to be a metallurgist by any means, but my experience indicates there must be residual stresses
in the metal (possibly induced by the cooling process) which are reduced over time. Cast blanks
which are new are much more prone to warpage after machining than are ones which have sat on
a shelf for a few years. Also, cast iron (I'm not sure about cast steel) gets harder as it
ages. I once worked in an optics shop cutting spherical surfaces in cast iron for grinding
lenses. For forty years, every time they needed a new radius, they had a new tool made. Then
we developed a method for acurately cutting those surfaces in the shop, so re-cutting old tools
that were almost right became practical. The new iron cut like butter, the old was very much
harder. The tools that were forty years old were impractical to cut because the iron was so hard
the carbide tools dulled too quickly!
Hugh Brown
hu...@medicus.com
John Whitmore
Ken Colasuonno <co...@lvld.hp.com> wrote:
>: Pre-war, and even post-war (up to about the mid-1950's) are better since
>: they were made better. The castings were allowed to season longer before
>: they were machined. This prevents warpage.
>Can you explain this bit about "seasoning". Not knowing a thing about
>metalurgy this seems odd.
Cast iron is not entirely homogeneous: there are small
inclusions that result from impurities coming out of solution,
for instance. As a result, cooling the cast iron always introduces
some strains in the solid material. Such strains will slowly
relax in most alloys (this effect is minimized in, for instance,
piano wire), and the casting might change shape over a period
of days to weeks.
An old piece of iron will hold its shape a lot better
than a 'fresh' piece. It is said, for example, that a reground
camshaft is a better engine component than a new part.
John Whitmore
Patrick Leach
Not being a metalhead (was one in high school, though), I can't give you
the exact details. The way I understand it, there are internal stresses
that build up in a casting, which are dependent upon the uneven thicknesses
of the casting, the contact of the mold with its surroundings, the rate at
which the casting is allowed to cool, and junk like that.
Thicker portions of a casting shrink proportionately more than the thinner
portions. Since a plane's bottom casting is not anywhere near uniform and
barely symmetrical, its form or proportion is subjected to change as it cools.
Also, thinner portions of a casting cool faster than thicker portions - the
first to cool get their final proportions, while the last to cool put strain
on the earlier to cool. This causes internal strain to build.
By allowing the casting to season, that is, allowing it to sit in the rough
before machining it true, the internal strain is gradually reduced over time.
What this all means is if a casting is machined true, as soon as it reaches
room temperature, it is liable to warp, which renders any machining futile.
If the casting is allowed to season, for whatever time found necessary, the
likelihood of warpage is reduced and the machining of it is worthwhile.
Since time is money these days, plane castings aren't allowed to sit any-
where near as long as the older casting were allowed. I know a guy who has
a detailed description of Stanley's old casting process. I'm gonna try to
get him to send me a photocopy, and I'll enter it. I'll also be seeing a
retired patternmaker pal of mine this weekend. I'll pick his brain to see
what I've missed.
--
--------------------------------------------------------------------------
Patrick Leach
Just say Cool metal? Like Aerosmith n' Guns and Roses with amps that go to
11?
etc.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------
My Name Here
> Patrick Leach
> Just say Cool metal? Like Aerosmith n' Guns and Roses with amps that go to
> 11?
> etc.
> --------------------------------------------------------------------------
>
with Noses" in the same breath!
Also, did my gif of the bermuda dovetails get to the list okay?? I
got two requests to post it, and I did yesterday (but am unsure if it
worked...).
Just say Almost all our snow is gone, and you guys are still armpit
deep. All this for just 5 degrees further south (But AUGUST is too-o
#$% Hot!). You would not believe full moons down here, so bright!
<><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><>
D. Brewer Eddy College of William and Mary
dbe...@mail.wm.edu (generic, good!) Computer Center, Jones Hall
Williamsburg, VA 23187-8795
Williamsburg, from the indian for "most storms miss us..."
Well, except for that last one... Ice, with a tree on the deck...
<><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><>
Gregg Germain
: Also, did my gif of the bermuda dovetails get to the list okay?? I
: got two requests to post it, and I did yesterday (but am unsure if it
: worked...).
no. I got the message "short file" and when i displayed it
it was all messed up.
Gregg
Mark Williams
and made better. The castings are more refined and better machined, the
wood and brass fittings are nicer, and the paint is often thicker (japanning).
I base these comments on observations of hundreds of Stanley tools made from
1867 to 1984. I have had to do more tuning (flattening of the bottoms
especially) on recent planes than older ones. Sometime in the 1950s, Stanley
started finishing their castings on sanding belts, instead of machining them.
They also didn't rest the castings after they were made, to let stresses
equalize, but machined them right away. This resulted in some of them
having deformed bottoms, usually cupped, with slight protrusions where there
was a metal boss or flange above them. Some are fine however, so
this pre-war comment is just a rule of thumb. You really have to check
each individual plane for flatness.
Interestingly, planes made during WW2 had much heavier body castings and
substituted rubber covered steel nuts for the brass adjusting nut. I can
understand the shortage of brass (for shell casings), but why they used
more iron is a mystery. Perhaps it was of poorer quality due to changes
in composition, missing ingredients. At any rate, they are still quite usable,
and I would extend the period of "acceptable planes" well into the 50s. I
theorize that the old duffers who know how to use these tools were dying off,
and the market demand dwindled, so Stanley started cost cutting.
Today, all Stanley production is by the English Stanley subsidiary, and is
of lesser quality still. Handles and knobs are plastic, and the blades
are not laminated as they were from the 1910-1940 era. That is a good reason
to buy Record if you need a new plane (or the Garret Wade Paragon line).
I would also invest in a Hock blade for a new plane. The steel is much harder.
but if you can find an older Stanley complete and undamaged, it can generally
be tuned to do excellent work on straight grained wood. I sell a few of
these older planes from time to time, send Email if interested.
ke...@daffy.cac.washington.edu
One clarification: There are two different effects being talked about here.
The first is internal stresses in a casting, or induced by rolling or
forging or whatever. These are certainly present. To avoid distortion from
these, or rather to compensate for it, you first remove the bulk of the
material with deep ('roughing') cuts. At this point the workpiece warps.
Then you make very shallow ('finish') cuts. You're left with a flat/round
whatever workpiece.
The second effect, which the sources below differ about, is whether the
material will continue to slowly warp over time.
(for the sake of completeness, a third effect is dimensional effects
resulting from ongoing crystalline changes in heat treated steels. I have
only seen these discussed as relevant making gage blocks - a level of
accuracy several orders of magnitude greater than required for machine
tools or hand planes)
From "Foundry Practices", S.E. Rusinoff, American Technical Society, 1955:
"Cast iron castings also are heat treated to prevent warping when machined
or in use. This remedy may often be offered by seasoning or storing the
castings, usually outdoors, for several months. The heat of the sun expands
the castings slightly and the occasional cooling contracts them. These
expansions and contractions, during a period of several months, season the
castings. All casting strains due to unequal cooling of the metal after
pouring in the mold will be relieved in the casting in a period of time if
it is allowed to season before any other subsequent processing commences,
such as machining and finishing. Of course, modern heat treatment methods
and furnaces have been developed which can impart the above properties
to the casting in shorter periods of time."
From: "Foundations of Mechanical Accuracy", Wayne R. Moore, The Moore
Special Tool Company, 1970:
"The theory that a cast iron part must be exposed to the weather to rust and
'age' in order to stabilize it is a carry-over from the past. In the absence
of closer measuring facilities or adequate temperature control, the stability
of the iron was blamed. Supposed cases of instability might have been traced
to machining practices, deflection, or, most often, to temperature variations."
I'll paraphrase some other comments he makes over a couple of pages:
-The rate of cooling of the casting following solidification affects
stability.
-single-point tools, i.e. shapers/planers (the metalworking ones)
result in a more stable piece than if the part is milled. Anyone
have any guesses why? (he doesn't offer any)
Moore cites a reference: L.W. Nichols "Investigations into the Stability of
Castings", NPL Technical Bulletin S.S. 193, May 1940. I've no idea what the
NPL is or where to get a copy.
Lastly, of course, none of this is evidence that modern planes are or
aren't worse than older ones. It's certainly possible to make bad parts even
from a stable casting. One thought, though - could the older ones be
flatter on the average because the original owners flattened them?
Mark Williams
of Stanley tools. While I disagree with many of his comments about
British infill planes, the author reinforces what we have been saying
about the quality of Stanley tools now.
This issue had some planing jigs detailed too, so it's worth looking for
if you don't subscribe.
From WOODWORKER magazine, January 1994, page 2 (verbatim, except for my
typos and a few editorial comments in square brackets []:
=========================================================================
GOOD MORNING, STANLEY -- THIS IS YOUR WAKE UP CALL, by Ernie Conover
The name Stanley has always evoked in me a mental salute. The company's long
history and tradition of fine tool making reminds me of some of my earliest
workshop memories. I used to marvel at the wonderful Stanley rules, levels
and, most of all, planes. I consider the Stanley Bailey plane to be the
seminal tool of its kind. It brought high quality planes to the masses.
While many plane aficionadoes wax lyrical about English "stuffed" planes
such as Spires [sic] and Noris [sic], neither can hold a candle to a classic
Bailey [sic]. Stuffed planes are so called because their "u"-shaped metal
bodies are stuffed with fine wood, usually rosewood. While there is no doubt
that these represent the high water mark of workmanship and work beautifully,
they were expensive in their day and they remain very expensive today.
In fact, many of those lucky enough to own one are hesitant to use it
because of its value.
The classic Stanley Baileys, howver, can still be had for $35 to $75 at
flea markets everywhere. They exhibit the same fine workmanship as the
English planes [no way!], including finely machined metal parts and rosewood
handles (except in 1927, 1929 and 1934, when shortages of rosewood forced the
substitution of cocobolo). While the English planes required exacting
hand assembly [some Norris planes have unique matching numbers on their hand
fitted parts], Stanley made use of mass manufacturing techniques to achieve
a high-grade plane at an affordable price. It remained an affordable and
high-quality tool from 1870 [1867], when it was introduced, until the 1960s
when production ceased [1984 for some types in US]. It should be noted,
however, that the last several years of production (in the 1960s) saw a
decline in the quality of Stanley Bailey planes. Many I know would go
further in claiming that the company ceased making good planes after
World War II.
It was in the 1960s that Stanley made the decision to concentrate on the then
emerging "do it yourself" (DIY) market (what I call 4' by 8' panel trade,
for these are people who spend their weekends improving their homes by
nailing up plywood and paneling). These folks are frequently more drawn
to our craft for its economies than from any sense of enjoyement from
working with wood. While I cannot fault Stanley's decision to cater to
the DIY trade, I lament its abandonment of the mainstream woodworker.
Gone from the Stanley line are those affordable friends that served
generations of my forefathers so well. I am now forced to pick through
flea markets for my Stanley tools but, fortunately for me, even a previously
owned Stanley is better than anything the company makes today.
It is as if Rolls Royce decided to build Yugos, and abandon the fine car
market. For sure I could understand bringing out a cheaper car, but not
dropping the line of cars that defines it as the highest-quality carmaker
in the world. Sadly, this seems to be just the case with Stanley. It has
abondoned its truly professional lines that catered to the serious woodworker
in favor of the "do it yourself/contractor" line of tools.
What about Stanley of England, you say? Well, Stanley of England is a
wholly owned division of Stanley USA, one, however that still makes many
fine cast iron tools -- tools like bench and block planes, short swing (6")
bit braces and shoulder rabbet and router planes that were the mainstay of
the classic Stanley line. However, this fine line of tools has been left to
languish in a marketing corner. It is not sold through Stanley's normal
distribution network but through an entirely separate one. In fact, the
two distribution chains, Stanley USA and Stanley England, are in competitiion
with one another. The result is that a hardware store carrying the Stanley
USA line cannot say to its salesman, "and by the way I would like to add
a Stanley of England #93 rabbet [shoulder] plane to my next order."
The store would have to contact a separate sales entity and meet separate
stocking order minimums to carry the tools of our British friends.
Wake up, Stanley! There are lots of us who would pay good money for more of
your classic tools. The flea market supply is dwindling and will one day
be exhausted. Bridge City Tools and Lie-Neilson [sic] have read the
tool-buying wind and created going companies by offering modern classic
tools of unparalleled quality. Though pricey, they are within the reach
of anyone who cherishes quality. What's more they do what they are
designed to do -- work smoothly and precisely -- looking elegant all the
while. They are tools that work right out of the box. Now there' s a
novel idea.
I forgot to mention that neither Stanley of England nor Record planes (its
English competitor) work out of the box. Sharpening the iron will not cure
the problem for the cap iron that does not fit correctly either. In short,
they are kit planes that need tuning and reassembly. Flea market Stanley
Baileys often work with a simple sharpening of the iron. They certainly
worked perfectly directly from the box in their day.
Wake up, Stanley! It's time to bring back some of those classics.
You could begin with very little effort by integrating the Stanley of
England line back into your general line. That way we might once again
find good tools at our local hardware stores. Who knows, you might even
find that there are more people than you thought who recognize the lasting
value of a quality tool -- and I bet the DIY sales would remain unaffected.
While you're at it, get rid of those awful tacky plastic handles.
A plastic handle doesn 't belong on a wood plane. Why not take a lesson
from another great American tool company, Bridge City, and try using
resin-impregnated wood for your tool handles. With a solid, inert, wooden
handle, one that looks like rosewood, it would go a long way toward making
the tool look and feel like one made for working wood.
We can't salute you on this your 150th birthday without recalling what
made the name Stanley great. It's time to wake up and recalim your heritage.
===========================================================================
[end of article]
For a current pricelist on the old Stanley planes I have available, send
EMAIL.
John Wishneusky
>> --------------------------------------------------------------------------
>> Patrick Leach
>> Just say Cool metal? Like Aerosmith n' Guns and Roses with amps that go to
>> 11?
>> etc.
>> --------------------------------------------------------------------------
>>
> Hey, Patrick, how DARE you mention the Dirty Dot Bad Boys and "Fun
>with Noses" in the same breath!
> Also, did my gif of the bermuda dovetails get to the list okay?? I
>got two requests to post it, and I did yesterday (but am unsure if it
>worked...).
I received it here and printed a copy. (Patrick, I'll bring it to the
Cabin Fever auction tomorrow.) It looks like quite a challenge to cut
the ornamentation.
>
>Just say Almost all our snow is gone, and you guys are still armpit
>deep. All this for just 5 degrees further south (But AUGUST is too-o
>#$% Hot!). You would not believe full moons down here, so bright!
><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><>
>D. Brewer Eddy College of William and Mary
>dbe...@mail.wm.edu (generic, good!) Computer Center, Jones Hall
> Williamsburg, VA 23187-8795
>Williamsburg, from the indian for "most storms miss us..."
>Well, except for that last one... Ice, with a tree on the deck...
><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><>
John
Bennett Leeds
> An interesting article offers an oldtimer's perspective on the quality
>
> GOOD MORNING, STANLEY -- THIS IS YOUR WAKE UP CALL, by Ernie Conover
> What about Stanley of England, you say? Well, Stanley of England is a
> wholly owned division of Stanley USA, one, however that still makes many
> fine cast iron tools -- tools like bench and block planes, short swing (6")
> bit braces and shoulder rabbet and router planes that were the mainstay of
> the classic Stanley line. However, this fine line of tools has been left to
> languish in a marketing corner. It is not sold through Stanley's normal
>...
> Wake up, Stanley! It's time to bring back some of those classics.
> You could begin with very little effort by integrating the Stanley of
> England line back into your general line.
Garrett-Wade is now selling the English line of Stanley planes. They claim
the quality is a bit better than the Record planes they also carry.
> Why not take a lesson
> from another great American tool company, Bridge City, and try using
> resin-impregnated wood for your tool handles. With a solid, inert, wooden
> handle, one that looks like rosewood, it would go a long way toward making
> the tool look and feel like one made for working wood.
FWIW, BCTW claims that it's resin-impregnated wood costs more than the
cocobolo they used to use. That's not going to be cost efficient for an
outfit like Stanley, unless they feel like making a Lexus line from their
Toyotas.
- Bennett Leeds
ben...@mv.us.adobe.com
Patrick Leach
|> Since time is money these days, plane castings aren't allowed to sit any-
|> where near as long as the older casting were allowed. I know a guy who has
|> a detailed description of Stanley's old casting process. I'm gonna try to
|> get him to send me a photocopy, and I'll enter it. I'll also be seeing a
|> retired patternmaker pal of mine this weekend. I'll pick his brain to see
|> what I've missed.
Saw my patternmaker pal on Saturday. He told me that they would toss the
castings outside and let them sit for weeks before machining them true. He
also told me something I already knew - that Record stuff is junk when com-
pared to the older stuff.
--
--------------------------------------------------------------------------
Patrick Leach
Just say Ya gets what ya pays for these days...
etc.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------
Patrick Leach
|>
|> GOOD MORNING, STANLEY -- THIS IS YOUR WAKE UP CALL, by Ernie Conover
|>
|> The name Stanley has always evoked in me a mental salute. The company's long
|> history and tradition of fine tool making reminds me of some of my earliest
|> workshop memories. I used to marvel at the wonderful Stanley rules, levels
|> and, most of all, planes. I consider the Stanley Bailey plane to be the
|> seminal tool of its kind. It brought high quality planes to the masses.
|> While many plane aficionadoes wax lyrical about English "stuffed" planes
|> such as Spires [sic] and Noris [sic], neither can hold a candle to a classic
|> Bailey [sic].
OUCH, that hurts! Did this dude really claim that a Spiers or Norris cannot
hold a candle to the Bailey design, or am I halucinating?
|> Stuffed planes are so called because their "u"-shaped metal
|> bodies are stuffed with fine wood, usually rosewood. While there is no doubt
|> that these represent the high water mark of workmanship and work beautifully,
|> they were expensive in their day and they remain very expensive today.
|> In fact, many of those lucky enough to own one are hesitant to use it
|> because of its value.
Au contraire, Mr. Conover. The high prices that many dudes pay for these
English planes is because they are in great demand for use by the same. I
don't for one minute hesitate using mine.
This money thing for Norris planes kinda cracks me up. Guys don't seem
to blink when it comes time to pony up the dinero for a bitchin' cool power
jointer, but they think you're nuts for spending half that for a handplane.
It's gotta be the weight per dollar thing I suppose.
--
--------------------------------------------------------------------------
Patrick Leach
Just say No luck involved to own one, all it takes is money.
etc.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------
Patrick Leach
|> Garrett-Wade is now selling the English line of Stanley planes. They claim
|> the quality is a bit better than the Record planes they also carry.
Does Garrett-Wade also claim the fact that the older Stanley planes
cost less to purchase than the new ones? If not, I will. The vintage
Stanley planes cost less than the new ones do. If you don't believe
me, send email for prices, and do some comparison shopping.
--
--------------------------------------------------------------------------
Patrick Leach
Just say Old tools seek loving families.
etc.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------
Paul Houtz
> Saw my patternmaker pal on Saturday. He told me that they would toss the
>castings outside and let them sit for weeks before machining them true. He
>also told me something I already knew - that Record stuff is junk when com-
>pared to the older stuff.
----------
Interesting. My dad was a machinist most of the time I was growing up.
He machined parts for rock crushers and chippers, etc. BIG castings.
He worked on one of those circa 1930's Cincinnati milling machines.
I have fond memories of going to see him at work, and seeing the
very large lot nearby full of rough castings sitting in the Oregon rain,
month after month.
One spring a family of falcons nested in the gravel in the center of one of
these castings (they were shaped like big cones with both ends cut off,
and usually rested on the ground, big end down). I remember asking my
dad if they would have to hurt the birds when they needed the casting,
and he laughed and said the birds would be long gone before the casting
was ready for milling.
I know. It has nothing to do with hand planes. Sorry for wasting the
bandwidth.