Catalyzed Varnish
Stephen Kwan
Has anyone ever heard of catalyzed varnish? I've been told it is a nice
finish for kitchen cabinets. However, I've never seen it in a store
before. Any comments, good or bad, or real life experience is appreciated
:-).
Most importantly, I'd like to know:
1) is it a primarily sprayed, brushed or rubbed on finish?
2) is it toxic (fumes?)
3) what's its rate of drying? How long do I need to wait between coats?
4) what brand is available on the market
5) what kind of protection does it offer compared to laquer, varnish or poly?
Thanks very much,
--
Stephen Kwan
sx...@psu.edu
jim mcnamara
>Any comments, good or bad, or real life experience is appreciated
It is very good for kitchen cabinets.
>:-).
>
>Most importantly, I'd like to know:
>
>1) is it a primarily sprayed, brushed or rubbed on finish?
Spray only.
>2) is it toxic (fumes?)
And how - the fumes require good ventilation and a respirator.
>3) what's its rate of drying? How long do I need to wait between coats?
It dries completely in less than four hours. The recoat time window for
most conversion varnishes is about 2 hours. Wait longer than that and you
will have big problems with adhesion.
>4) what brand is available on the market
Try a Sherwin-Williams or Diamond Vogel or other store that sells to
professional cabinetmakers.
It isn't available from places like Home Depot.
>5) what kind of protection does it offer compared to laquer, varnish or
poly?
It provides about the best surface protection of any finish. It is also the
kind of finish that absolutely requires spray equipment, and some experience
or practice spraying before 'going live'. The place you get it from will
usually provide you with either a tech sheet or a toll-free number to call
for information.
The overall film thickness is on the order of 2-3 mils, so it doesn't
provide a lot of build like varnish. The finish looks 'very close' to the
wood.
jim mcnamara
Stephen Kwan
<csi_jimm@coopserv*.com (remove *)> wrote:
[stuff removed]
>>3) what's its rate of drying? How long do I need to wait between coats?
>
>It dries completely in less than four hours. The recoat time window for
>most conversion varnishes is about 2 hours. Wait longer than that and you
>will have big problems with adhesion.
Thanks Jim for the info. Another quick question, what do you mean by big
problems with adhesion? Do you mean if I let 1 coat dries overnight, and
then recoat, it won't stick very well to the first coat?
>
>>4) what brand is available on the market
>
>Try a Sherwin-Williams or Diamond Vogel or other store that sells to
>professional cabinetmakers.
>
>It isn't available from places like Home Depot.
What about your traditional woodworkers supply house? For example:
Woodworkers Supply, Lee Valley,...etc.
--
Stephen Kwan
sx...@psu.edu
Shafner
> on wet coat, ie: one coat over another without scuff sanding in
> between. You can most certainly apply a second coat 12 to 24 hours
> later ( actually better in some instances since it allows the first
> coat to shrink somewhat) however you must scuff sand the first coat.
> Usually 220 to 280 grit, never finer. You should apply your second
> coat soon after sanding, as the scratch will loose its "tooth" as the
> finish cures and thus the subsequent coat will not adhere as well as
> could be.
>
> Conversion varnish is one of those finishes that behaves contrary to
> what you would expect. You CAN sand your wood too smoothly and greatly
> reduce the adheasion of the product. It also sprays better with a
> large diameter tip in a HVLP gun. Too fine of a tip atomizes the
> product too much and it starts to set up before the dropplets can flow
> together to form a smooth film. Even though it has 50% more solids
> than lacquer, vertical surfaces take some getting used to, until you
> get the technique down beware of runs.
>
> Finally this product is sensitive to temperature. Get information on
> fast and slow reducers. By changing the speed of your reducer you can
> accomidate the seasonal temperature changes. Never spray this product
> below 60 degrees F.
>
> Takes some getting used to but well worth the effort.
>
> Ron Bryze
>
> --
> RB is me
What are your experiences (or anyone who cares to give some good answers) when
it comes to using conversion varnish with glazes?
Are there specialty glazes, or can I use my Mohawk Nu-Glaze products?
Do you let the glaze flash and then shoot it the way that you do when you
topcoat glazes with nitrocellulose lacquer?
Do you wait 20 minutes to 2 hours, or 2 hours to 6 hours for the flash and
shoot method?
ML Campbell calls Duravar a conversion varnish. Does this product (which is
thinned with lacquer thinner) really perform as well or better than a
conventional conversion varnish which is reduced with xylene?
--
Daniel Shafner
shafner at "ntr" dot net
/ `-' ) ,,,
| IU U||||||||[:::]
\_.-.( '''
RB is me
Ted Evans
to answer a couple of questions about the spray equipment? I'm looking to
purchase a professional grade of HVLP that uses compressed air. The gravity
feed models are not appealing to me but are they better or worse than a
siphon feed? Which manufacture and which model is recommended?
TIA for your help.
Ted
>
>Has anyone ever heard of catalyzed varnish? I've been told it is a nice
>finish for kitchen cabinets. However, I've never seen it in a store
>before. Any comments, good or bad, or real life experience is appreciated
>:-).
u
Rtswood
also check out their 1 qt cup nice but costly. their touch up gun is nice.
Good luck
jim mcnamara
RB is me --
What brands of conv varnish you use?
The tech data from Guardsman specifically states not to
apply new coat over dry. They cite poor adhesion. I called the
tech support people and they said (your description of fine sanding
dry and spraying) resulted in "iffy" adhesion. I've never had problems when
I followed the tech advice, but there are times when spraying
the second coat a lot later would be great.
jim mcnamara
RB is me
>What are your experiences (or anyone who cares to give some good answers) when
>it comes to using conversion varnish with glazes?
>Are there specialty glazes, or can I use my Mohawk Nu-Glaze products?
>Do you let the glaze flash and then shoot it the way that you do when you
>topcoat glazes with nitrocellulose lacquer?
>Do you wait 20 minutes to 2 hours, or 2 hours to 6 hours for the flash and
>shoot method?
>ML Campbell calls Duravar a conversion varnish. Does this product (which is
>thinned with lacquer thinner) really perform as well or better than a
>conventional conversion varnish which is reduced with xylene?
>--
>Daniel Shafner
>shafner at "ntr" dot net
> / `-' ) ,,,
> | IU U||||||||[:::]
> \_.-.( '''
Daniel,
First rule of catalyzed finishes: buy your stains, glazes, sealers,
ect, from the manufacturer of your finish. While another manufacturers
product may work, the first time you have a problem and the rep asks
you to explain EXACTLY what you did.... no manufacturer will guarantee
that their product will work with some one elses. Each manufacturer
has system that should be able to cover any situation you run into.
You can experiment, but be advised, these products are very, very
difficult to remove once they have cured. Allow enough time for your
experiments to age. I have seen sheens drop after 3 weeks, and
finishes turn bright yellow after 6 weeks. Do your homework and stick
to a system.
To your origional question, the glazes you mention use long oil
solvents. Most conversion varnishes do not like to be applied over
this type of solvent. The other factor is that the glaze forms a haze
(film); varnishes bond to underlying layers by mechanical ahdesion
(that is why you MUST sand between coats once the initial wet on wet
window is passed). This means yuo would have to scratch the glaze for
the 2 layers of varnis to bond...wouldn't look so good. Again check
your varnish manufacturer, they probably have a glaze specifically
formulated for varnish finishes.
As far as your Duravar, I have never used this product, however Star
Finishing products used to make a product called StarVar, that could
also be thinned with lacquer thinner. I was told that it was not a
"true" conversion varnish. I did try it and fould it to be better than
lacquer, but not as good as other "true" xylol reduced varnishes.
Hope this helps.
RB is me
>RB is me --
>jim mcnamara
Jim,
I used Guardsman products for about 9 years and then products by
Valspar. For the last 4 years I have been using catalyzed acrylic
polyurethanes from various Italian manufacturers ( ICA, Ilva, Sayerlac
Hickson).
I can't imagine why you could not apply more than 1 coat of varnish. I
have done it inumerable times.
There ARE a few rules.
Most manufacturers state that you should not excede a total of 4-5
mils of film thickness.
Subsequent coats are either put on "wet on wet" ( the 1 to 4 hour
window) or after 24 hours, scuff sanded inbetween coats.
Recoat soon after sanding.
Case in point:
Must catalyzed finishes do not allow for the use of paste wood fillers
to attain a closed pore finish on woods such as walnut and
mahogany...the finish does not adhere well to the long oil solvent in
the filler. The only way to achieve this is through multiple thin
coats. Use slower reducers to let the material flow (bridge the
pore). Sanding between coats not only insures adhesion, but also
reduces the mounding around the pore caused by surface tension in the
liquid.
When working with the poly's some mfr's actually tell you to boost the
catalyst in your initial coats to increase their hardness. Always
check with the mfr of your particular product for their
recommendations, and ALWAYS do a test piece.
As far as your tech's advise, it has been a while since I have used
their product, so maybe they reformulated (?) I guess I would ask how
they would achieve a closed pore finish, and follow their guidelines.
RB is me
>Thanks to all for the info on catalyzed varnish. Now would you be so kind as
>to answer a couple of questions about the spray equipment? I'm looking to
>purchase a professional grade of HVLP that uses compressed air. The gravity
>feed models are not appealing to me but are they better or worse than a
>siphon feed? Which manufacture and which model is recommended?
>TIA for your help.
>Ted
Ted,
Try looking into systems that use pressure feed. Most mfr's have guns
that have pressurized 1 quart cups attached. You can get into pots and
tanks, but clean up of material hoses, ect. is not worth it if you
are not doing large quantities of spraying / day. Once you use a
pressure feed set-up I don't think you will ever go back to any other
type.
I have tried several different mfr's, each seems to have its own
personality. I personally use DeVilbis equipment. It is fairly
expensive, but it has served me well. Be sure your purchase has
stainless steel passages and fittings, catalyst is corrosive. Use a
large diameter needle valve/tip for varnish.
Good luck.
BJ Feng
It will be most effective if you search deja news and
check a few of the forums dedicated to spray finishing.
Over the past year, there must have been 100 articles
in rec.wwking alone on HVLP spraying. I doubt 10% of those
posts will reappear in response to your request because
most of us tire of posting the same 4 page info letter
again and again and again.
http://www.horizonweb.com/wwwboard/spray_101/wwwboard.html
http://www.woodforum.com/
http://www.woodmagazine.com/talk/
http://www.chartcomm.com/wwwboard/wwwboard.html
(please don't post novice/hobby questions at this site)
Also,
I just scanned the posts on "catalyzed varnish" that have
appeared in the last few days. There is a lot more to be
said about this product and other alternative finishes.
You can find more info at these wwking forums as well.
John Feng
BJ Feng
--
John Feng
BJ Feng
Jim didn't mean just 1 coat. He meant 1 coat (cured) at a time.
RB is me wrote:
> "jim mcnamara" <csi_...@coopserv.com> wrote:
>
> >(snipt) there are times when spraying
> >the second coat a lot later would be great.
> >jim mcnamara
> Jim,
> (snip)
>
> I can't imagine why you could not apply more than 1 coat of varnish. I
> have done it inumerable times.
>
>
John Feng
Ted Evans
my questions. However, I did do a search before posting the questions and
did find a lot of information. I was hoping to get some current opinions
from people using the equipment. And I did get a couple of responses that
were very helpful, an order has been placed and I feel more confident
because of those responses. To those people, I'm very grateful.
Ted
BJ Feng wrote in message <35FFDE1B...@ibm.net>...
Shafner
>
> RB is me --
>
> What brands of conv varnish you use?
>
> The tech data from Guardsman specifically states not to
> apply new coat over dry. They cite poor adhesion. I called the
> tech support people and they said (your description of fine sanding
> dry and spraying) resulted in "iffy" adhesion. I've never had problems when
> the second coat a lot later would be great.
>
> jim mcnamara
I recently used the conversion varnish from CCI (Chemical Coatings
Incorporated), an RPM company from Hudson, NC. The recoat window was 2 to 4
hours, depending on climate conditions. I ran into recoat window problems a
few times. My work was on site, in a kitchen.
I always scuff sanded between coats which had cured. The big thing with any of
the systems is your dry mil thickness.
My choice is to use Duravar from ML Campbell, but I am not really sure if the
performance of this catalyzed finish is as good as Guardsman/Lilly or CCI.
This stuff is just plain easier to use than products from other suppliers.
Duravar has nitrocellulose in it, so its performance might fall between a
catalyzed lacquer and a "true" conversion varnish which reduces with xylene
(Duravar reduces with lacquer thinner).
I have heard that Sherwin-Williams Sherwood Conversion Varnish enjoys a good reputation.
--
Daniel Shafner
Read the headers to find my e-mail address.
I've been switching ISP's.