How do I age copper quickly?
tom hansen
that has the nice light green patina.) How can I quickly age this
pipe, short of putting it outside for a number of months? I appreciate
all suggestions.
Thanks,
Tom Hansen
Mitch Bergner
that is used in glass work. You might find what you are looking for
there.
Mitch
R.Marty Schlosser
Marty S.
John Darlington
tom hansen (tha...@unlinfo.unl.edu) writes:
> I have a design which calls for aged copper pipe (you know, the stuff
> that has the nice light green patina.) How can I quickly age this
> pipe, short of putting it outside for a number of months? I appreciate
> all suggestions.
>
> Thanks,
> Tom Hansen
Hi Tom,
I work with a guy who was asked the same question about brass. His
answer was CAT URINE. Said he knew it work because he has/had a brass kick-
plate on his front door and his neighbors' cat did the job for him.
Regards,
JD
reda
subject, sorry dont remember the issue, but it wasnt that long ago
J. T. Patten
>I have a design which calls for aged copper pipe (you know, the stuff
>that has the nice light green patina.) How can I quickly age this
>pipe, short of putting it outside for a number of months? I appreciate
>all suggestions.
>
>Thanks,
>Tom Hansen
>
Tom,
Wood Magazine December 95 issue suggested using a Film processing
chemical(rapid fixer) mixed 50/50 with water for approximately 10
minutes. They also went through what you should do to clean the copper.
This will only give you an aged patina not a light green patina.
I've seen suggested here to use vinager and salt to help give a green
patina.
Good Luck!
Jon
Jimmie Motto
>
>
>tom hansen (tha...@unlinfo.unl.edu) writes:
>> I have a design which calls for aged copper pipe (you know, the stuff
>> that has the nice light green patina.) How can I quickly age this
>> pipe, short of putting it outside for a number of months? I
appreciate
>> all suggestions.
>>
>> Thanks,
>> Tom Hansen
>
>Hi Tom,
> I work with a guy who was asked the same question about brass. His
>answer was CAT URINE. Said he knew it work because he has/had a brass
kick-
>plate on his front door and his neighbors' cat did the job for him.
>
>Regards,
>JD
>
ok...Let's see here..Tom Didn't mention how much copper pipe was involved,
and JD didn'tsay how much urination actually occured. So...let's assume
it was three feet with complete converage. We get a long skinny pan
that the pipe will lay flat in. uumm..ok.. that minimizes the amount of
urine that is needed.... still, it's looking like 2 or 3 cups for
complete immersion to occur. (We've deciced ahead of time that we don't
want to have to roll the pipe back and forth to achieve a consistent
finish as this might encourage splashing. a bad idea no matter what
finishing product you're using.) allright...let's see..i'll get that
piece of tupperware from the kitchen and,..where's that cat???
-
JIM MOTTO YXF...@prodigy.com
Brian M. Godfrey
> I work with a guy who was asked the same question about brass. His
>answer was CAT URINE. Said he knew it work because he has/had a brass kick-
>plate on his front door and his neighbors' cat did the job for him.
My brother, who makes fine cedar/copper items went through all this. At
one point, someone told him to pee on it. He tried it and it worked quite
well, but he could never bring himself to charge someone big bucks for an item
where part of his process was peeing on it. Personally, I think he is nuts.
If I could find such a convenient and inexpensive way to solve some of my
problems I would be ecstatic.
--Brian
Bill
>
> I have a design which calls for aged copper pipe (you know, the stuff
> that has the nice light green patina.) How can I quickly age this
> pipe
> Tom Hansen
Wood magazine April 96 issue has an article that shows how to simulate a
"verdigris" finish on wood. The chemicals might work on metal also since
it appears that the first step is to appply a metalic finish to the wood.
Next another chemical is aplied to turn it green(or blue). The stuff they
used is called: Gilded Gold Metalic Surfacer, and Patina Green Antiquing
solution from Modern Options Inc. San Francisco, ca. They purchased it
from Dick Blick Art Materials PO Box 1267 Galesburg, Il 61402 cust
service :1-800-723-2787, credit card orders 1-800-447-8192. Dick Blick
is an art supply store chain, might be one local to you. Hope that helps
you out.
later, Bill
-----who sells tools that don't walk away when you turn your back on
them?-----
Richard Irvine
sulphate, find the formula for copper sulphate and apply the chemical
that is not copper. I think you will find it is an acid of some kind.
Be careful though, some acids and copper can produce pretty noxious
fumes.
In article <4jem3a$l...@crcnis3.unl.edu>, tha...@unlinfo.unl.edu says...
>
>I have a design which calls for aged copper pipe (you know, the stuff
>that has the nice light green patina.) How can I quickly age this
JCrab...@aol.com
writes:
>...let's see..i'll get that
>piece of tupperware from the kitchen and,..where's that cat???
>-
Hmm, how do you get a cat to pee on command....
Actually, a very weak solution of sulfuric acid will give you a nice green
patina....too concentrated and you'll eat holes in the copper....Let it set
in the acid or brush the acid over the pipe .....a quart of water and a
couple of tablespoons of sulfuric acid will do for a start.....ALWAYS POUR
WATER INTO THE ACID, NEVER THE OTHER WAY AROUND.
JOEL...sorry for yelling...Joel
"I've cut this board off twice and its still too short"
Peter Sibbald
>WATER INTO THE ACID, NEVER THE OTHER WAY AROUND.
>
If my elementary chemistry serves, this is backwards! You always add
the acid to the water. "May his rest be long and placid, added water
to the acid" is the mnemonic we used. Can a chemist comment please?
peter sibbald
Jeff Mayhew
Yes, the way I remember it is "acid into water as you ought-ter" or
something like that. Now what was that mnemonic for stalagtites and
stalagmites again?.....hmmm.
Incidentally, there's an excellent book dedicated to "The Colouring,
Bronzing and Patination of Metals" (the title). It's by Richard Hughes
and Michael Rowe, and its published by Watson-Guptill. Not only is
it filled with recipes, but it's got a large number of color plates
to show the exact effects of the various concoctions and treatments.
Jeff Mayhew
jma...@cris.com
Bruce Bowler
>
> >ALWAYS POUR
> >WATER INTO THE ACID, NEVER THE OTHER WAY AROUND.
>
> If my elementary chemistry serves, this is backwards! You always add
> the acid to the water. "May his rest be long and placid, added water
> to the acid" is the mnemonic we used. Can a chemist comment please?
That's my recollection too. Different mnemonic though.
AW (acid to water, soothing sound) WA (water to acid, like a baby crying)
--
+---------------------+---------------------------------------+-------------+
| Bruce Bowler | We'd all like to vote for the best | Usual |
| 1.207.633.9600 | man, but he's never a candidate. | Disclaimers |
| BBo...@Bigelow.org | Kim Hubbard | Apply |
+---------------------+---------------------------------------+-------------+
Phil Rose
Sibbald) wrote:
> >ALWAYS POUR
> >WATER INTO THE ACID, NEVER THE OTHER WAY AROUND.
> >
>
> If my elementary chemistry serves, this is backwards! You always add
> the acid to the water. "May his rest be long and placid, added water
> to the acid" is the mnemonic we used. Can a chemist comment please?
>
> peter sibbald
You're correct, Peter.
Always pour acid (slowly) into water.*
I like the mnemonic you quoted. Trouble is, some people would recall only
the last part and think they were remembering the suggested procedure :^).
*For those who care, the reason for this: the dilution of concentrated
acid (by water) is a very exothermic (produces heat) process. The heat
generated--if a small amount of water hits conc. acid--is enough to
violently boil the water and make it (and some acid) splatter into one's
face. But by adding conc. acid to a large amount of water, the heat is
more quickly (efficiently) dissipated and boiling (and splattering) can be
avoided.
--
Phil Rose
Jake Hellbach
If you are supposed to add acid to water, why do you pour water into
your car battery? Not the same type of acid?
Thanks, Jake
pjr...@servtech.com (Phil Rose) wrote:
>I like the mnemonic you quoted. Trouble is, some people would recall only
>the last part and think they were remembering the suggested procedure :^).
>*For those who care, the reason for this: the dilution of concentrated
>acid (by water) is a very exothermic (produces heat) process. The heat
>generated--if a small amount of water hits conc. acid--is enough to
>violently boil the water and make it (and some acid) splatter into one's
>face. But by adding conc. acid to a large amount of water, the heat is
>more quickly (efficiently) dissipated and boiling (and splattering) can be
>avoided.
>--
>Phil Rose
____________________________________________
email via: kk...@accesscom.net
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Check out the Westside A.R.C. Web page at:
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____________________________________________
james_griffin
>
>In a message dated 96-03-30 02:00:25 EST, YXF...@PRODIGY.COM (Jimmie Motto)
>writes:
>
>>...let's see..i'll get that
>>piece of tupperware from the kitchen and,..where's that cat???
>>-
>
>Hmm, how do you get a cat to pee on command....
>
>Actually, a very weak solution of sulfuric acid will give you a nice green
>patina....too concentrated and you'll eat holes in the copper....Let it set
>in the acid or brush the acid over the pipe .....a quart of water and a
>WATER INTO THE ACID, NEVER THE OTHER WAY AROUND.
>
>
>"I've cut this board off twice and its still too short"
I'm not sure if Joel has actually tried this technique...sulfuric acid
is used to ETCH copper. Also NEVER, NEVER, NEVER add water to acid (unless
you like being sprayed with a boiling water/acid mixture)!!! Seriously, the
heat released in the H2O + H2SO4 to H3O+ + HSO4- is tremendous!! The way to
remember the is "be like an otter, add acid to water."
If you place a an old piece of copper (with a nice patina) into a solution
of H2SO4, you will be right back to the start; you'll have a bright shiney
piece of copper.
I've been doing some experiments in my lab (unauthorized of course) on
on getting a nice even patina on some copper door pulls that I made.
I tried electroplating, harsh acid, strong base, heating to red hot several
times, etc., etc. Every coating I achieved flaked off when I rubbed it.
There are several techniques for getting a patina on copper. It really
depends on what color(s) you desire. You can use a wiping solution (on
hot or cold copper), using chemicals that I am not too certain are
available to the general public. You might check at a local chemical/lab
supply company (Aldrich, Fisher, Sigma, etc.), or perhaps a toy/hobby shop
that sells replacements for chemistry sets. There is an excellent book that
gives recipes for various patina results called (ironically ;-)) "The
Colouring, Bronzing and Patination of Metals" by Richard Hughes and
Michael Rowe, published by Craftscouncil, 1982.
The easiest method I saw for a blue green patina on a red ground is;
copper nitrate 200 grams
sodium chloride 200 grams
water 1 liter
apply liquid twice a day for five days. Dab with soft cloth moistened in
the solution and let dry in air. Allow to dry for five days. Wax the finish
when you are certain that the surface is dry (might take longer in "wet"
climates).
If anyone needs further info, feel free to email me.
-James Griffin
Gri...@chemistry.chem.utah.edu
Phil Rose
Hellbach) wrote:
> Just a question,
> If you are supposed to add acid to water, why do you pour water into
> your car battery? Not the same type of acid?
> Thanks, Jake
>
>
It's a matter of the acid concentration, more than type. You can top off
batteries with water because the acid in the battery starts out already
somewhat diluted by water; hence the heat generated when water is added is
not going to be very great. Also, the water being added to a battery is
usually entering through a small opening, so any splashes would be
contained.
And... there's no other practical way to do it ;^)
--
Phil Rose
Mike McAlhany
concentrated acids things can get very nasty. What ever you do, do it
slowly.
Mike McAlhany
d013...@dcfreenet.seflin.lib.fl.us
Timothy McCrain
Tim
Bruce W. Given
NY completed construction of their new library--which had a spectacular
copper roof that almost outshone the sun; not at all appropriate for a
centennial event. The Chemistry Dept was asked how best to quickly "age"
the roof to a respectable patina-- the cheapest and best method they came
up with was to have the entire construction crew urinate in buckets and
apply the resulting collection to the roof. It was beautiful.
Wayne Weber
|> In article <96040106442...@emout08.mail.aol.com>, JCrab...@AOL.COM says:
|> >
|> >writes:
|> >
|> >>...let's see..i'll get that
|> >>piece of tupperware from the kitchen and,..where's that cat???
|> >>-
|> >
|> >Hmm, how do you get a cat to pee on command....
|> >
|> >Actually, a very weak solution of sulfuric acid will give you a nice green
|> >patina....too concentrated and you'll eat holes in the copper....Let it set
|> >in the acid or brush the acid over the pipe .....a quart of water and a
|> >couple of tablespoons of sulfuric acid will do for a start.....ALWAYS POUR
|> >WATER INTO THE ACID, NEVER THE OTHER WAY AROUND.
|> >
|> >JOEL...sorry for yelling...Joel
|> >
|> >"I've cut this board off twice and its still too short"
|>
When I was in high school we did the patina thing with a vile concoction called
"liver of sulfur". I think it might have been a solution of sodium
polysulfide--made by disolving sulfur in sodium sulfide solution. Is anyone
familiar with this stuff?
--
================================================================================
Wayne Weber, Senior Dyemeister
For the Finest in Designer Dyes
Johnson & Johnson Clinical Diagnostics (we...@rl.cldx.com)
Phone 716-453-5717
FAX 716-453-5689
================================================================================
The opinions stated here are those of the author and are not those
of Johnson and Johnson Clinical Diagnostics.
Douglas S. Caprette
In a previous article, BBo...@bigelow.org (Bruce Bowler) says:
>>
>>
>> You always add
>> the acid to the water. "May his rest be long and placid, added water
>> to the acid" is the mnemonic we used. Can a chemist comment please?
>
>That's my recollection too. Different mnemonic though.
>
>AW (acid to water, soothing sound) WA (water to acid, like a baby crying)
Also, do it slowly.
Some acids, especiallly sulphuric acid are strongly exothermic, that is
they get real hot real fast when they are disolved/diluted in water. By
adding the acid _slowly_ to the water the heat is slowly generated and
there is a large heat sink in the form of the bulk of the water.
If you do it the other way around, it may boil and spit back at you--
especially if in a narrow contianer like a test tube.
Sodium hydroxide, (lye) is also strongly exothermic. If you use it,
disolve/dilute it slowly too.
--
--
DS Caprette
"There's a little truth in all jive, and a little jive in all truth."
-- Leonard Q. Barnes
Peter Hernes
> |> >patina....too concentrated and you'll eat holes in the copper....Let it set
> |> >in the acid or brush the acid over the pipe .....a quart of water and a
> |> >couple of tablespoons of sulfuric acid will do for a start.....ALWAYS POUR
> |> >WATER INTO THE ACID, NEVER THE OTHER WAY AROUND.
> |> >
> |> >JOEL...sorry for yelling...Joel
> |> >
> |> >"I've cut this board off twice and its still too short"
> |>
> |> I'm not sure if Joel has actually tried this technique...sulfuric acid
> |> is used to ETCH copper. Also NEVER, NEVER, NEVER add water to acid (unless
> |> you like being sprayed with a boiling water/acid mixture)!!! Seriously, the
> |> heat released in the H2O + H2SO4 to H3O+ + HSO4- is tremendous!! The way to
> |> remember the is "be like an otter, add acid to water."
It isn't just a heat issue -- if you add water to acid, you run the risk
of splashing conc. acid on yourself, workbench, clothes, etc. If you add
acid to water, then you are splashing water or at worst, dilute acid.
Peter Hernes
Larry Gutkowski
|> In article <4jfskv$7...@freenet-news.carleton.ca> af...@FreeNet.Carleton.CA (John Darlington) writes:
|> > I work with a guy who was asked the same question about brass. His
|> >answer was CAT URINE. Said he knew it work because he has/had a brass kick-
|> >plate on his front door and his neighbors' cat did the job for him.
|>
|> My brother, who makes fine cedar/copper items went through all this. At
|> one point, someone told him to pee on it. He tried it and it worked quite
|> well, but he could never bring himself to charge someone big bucks for an item
|>
|>
I was vacationing in Vancouver, B.C. a few years back, and a tour guide pointed
out the green hue of a copper-roofed tower. I don't remember the building or
when the roof was completed, but I do remember her stating that it was pee'd on
in order to accelerate the aging process.
Larry
Don Wilkins
wrote:
>Just a question,
>If you are supposed to add acid to water, why do you pour water into
>your car battery? Not the same type of acid?
>Thanks, Jake
Yes it is the same kind of acid but it has already been diluted so the
inherent problem has been eliminated. Aside from that it is about the
only way to replace the water.
>pjr...@servtech.com (Phil Rose) wrote:
>
>
>>I like the mnemonic you quoted. Trouble is, some people would recall only
>>the last part and think they were remembering the suggested procedure :^).
>
>>*For those who care, the reason for this: the dilution of concentrated
>>acid (by water) is a very exothermic (produces heat) process. The heat
>>generated--if a small amount of water hits conc. acid--is enough to
>>violently boil the water and make it (and some acid) splatter into one's
>>face. But by adding conc. acid to a large amount of water, the heat is
>>more quickly (efficiently) dissipated and boiling (and splattering) can be
>>avoided.
>
The poster is correct in the procedure but the reasoning is not clear.
The rule of thumb is pour the acid into the water. It doesn't make
much difference with many acids but with concentrated sulfuric acid
you better do it right or you may be sorry. The reason is twofold, 1)
concentrated sulfuric acid (density 1.84) is much more dense than
water so if you pour water into the acid it will flow across the
surface and the mixing will be minimal, and 2) there is a tremendous
amount of heat produced in the dilution of concentrated sulfuric acid.
So if water is added to the acid there is not much mixing and the heat
is concentrated at the surface. This results in boiling and
splattering. If the more dense acid is poured into the water the
higher density fluid goes into the water and results in substantial
mixing which dissipates the heat throughout the mixture. The amount of
heat evolved is the same in either case but the place where the heat
is concentrated is different.
If you want to do it the safe way use ice cubes instead of water and
pour the acid into the ice cubes.
_ _ _ Für d' Flöh gibts a Pulver
(_| | |_/o | | | | o für d' Schuach gibts a Wix,
| | | | | | | _ _ , für'n Durst gibts a Wasser
| | | | |/ |/_) | / |/ | / \_ bloss fuer d' Dummheit gibts nix.
\_/ \_/ |_/|__/| \_/|_/ | |_/ \/
Don Wilkins
wrote:
>>ALWAYS POUR
>>WATER INTO THE ACID, NEVER THE OTHER WAY AROUND.
>>
>
>If my elementary chemistry serves, this is backwards! You always add
>the acid to the water. "May his rest be long and placid, added water
>to the acid" is the mnemonic we used. Can a chemist comment please?
OK from a non-woodworker but a retired chemist.
See a later post but the guy was dead wrong. You should pour the acid
into the water. Or better yet pour the acid onto the ice cubes. It is
a lot safer and the end results are the same.
Hank Lough
would do the job, considering that urine contains a large amount of ammonia.>
Eric Borduas
>sib...@qucis.queensu.ca (Peter Sibbald) wrote:
>>>ALWAYS POUR
>>>WATER INTO THE ACID, NEVER THE OTHER WAY AROUND.
>>>
>>
>>If my elementary chemistry serves, this is backwards! You always add
>>the acid to the water. "May his rest be long and placid, added water
>>to the acid" is the mnemonic we used. Can a chemist comment please?
Alway add the acid to the water. Use a glass container not a metal
one, since the acid can react with the metal. Always add the acid
slowly. If you are using very concentrated acid, use a glass rod,
place the glass rod into the container of water and pour the acid onto
the glass rod. This will eliminate any splashing and will force you to
pour the acid slowly.
ALWAYS WEAR ACID PROOF GLOVES AND PROPER EYE PROTECTION. MAKE SURE
THAT THE AREA YOU ARE WORKING IN IS WELL VENTELATED.
Acids can give off stong fumes that can be harmfull.
Wash you hands after handling the acid. If you splash acid onto
yourself or your clothing, rinse them with lots of cold water (under a
water tap) don't try to scrubb it off. If you splash acid alot of acid
onto yourself, run and jump into the shower and turn the cold water
tap on full (when in the shower and cold water is flowing, proceed to
remove all clothing)
Acids are as dangerous as a spinning saw blade.
Eric Borduas
/\ /\ Eric Borduas - ebor...@microstar.com
\/ \/ Computer
/\ /\ Aided Microstar Software Ltd. Phone: +1 613 596-CADE (2233)
\/ \/ Document 3775 Richmond Road Fax: +1 613 596-5934.
/\ /\ Engineering Nepean Ontario Can/US: 1 800 267-9975
\/ \/ CANADA K2H 5B7
For information by e-mail: ca...@microstar.com
Check out our Web site at: http://www.microstar.com/
"pragmatics must take precedence over elegence, for nature cannot be impressed"
Coggins Law of Software Engineering.
Phil Rose
dwil...@northernnet.com (Don Wilkins) wrote:
> >pjr...@servtech.com (Phil Rose) wrote:
> >>*For those who care, the reason for this: the dilution of concentrated
> >>acid (by water) is a very exothermic (produces heat) process. The heat
> >>generated--if a small amount of water hits conc. acid--is enough to
> >>violently boil the water and make it (and some acid) splatter into one's
> >>face. But by adding conc. acid to a large amount of water, the heat is
> >>more quickly (efficiently) dissipated and boiling (and splattering) can be
> >>avoided.
>
> The poster is correct in the procedure but the reasoning is not clear.
Well, thanks for attempting to make my reasoning clear. But there is a
distinction between clarity and detail.
> The rule of thumb is pour the acid into the water. It doesn't make
> much difference with many acids but with concentrated sulfuric acid
[lots of interesting stuff snipped]
> If the more dense acid is poured into the water the
> higher density fluid goes into the water and results in substantial
> mixing which dissipates the heat throughout the mixture. The amount of
> heat evolved is the same in either case but the place where the heat
> is concentrated is different.
So, like I said: by adding conc. acid to a large amount of water, the heat is
more quickly (efficiently) dissipated and boiling (and splattering) can be
avoided. Don't forget that folks!
Let's take this to sci.chem.something-or-other...
--
Phil Rose
Darryl Hayashida
Most of discussion deleted....
>
> When I was in high school we did the patina thing with a vile concoction called
> "liver of sulfur". I think it might have been a solution of sodium
> polysulfide--made by disolving sulfur in sodium sulfide solution. Is anyone
> familiar with this stuff?
> --
> ================================================================================
>
> Wayne Weber, Senior Dyemeister
> For the Finest in Designer Dyes
> Johnson & Johnson Clinical Diagnostics (we...@rl.cldx.com)
> Phone 716-453-5717
> FAX 716-453-5689
>
> ================================================================================
> The opinions stated here are those of the author and are not those
> of Johnson and Johnson Clinical Diagnostics.
Liver of sulphur is used all the time in jewelry making. It does give a
patina to most nonferrous metals, including copper (also sliver and gold,
although for gold it requires heating). The patina obtained is black, not
green on copper. That's why I had stayed out of this discussion, because
as an amateur jewelry maker I knew about liver of sulphur, but I saw the
original post, and he mentioned a green patina for copper. If a black
patina is what you want, just go to any jewelry making supply store.
Sometime they are listed under lapidary in the yellow pages.
Darryl Hayashida
dummy
>they get real hot real fast when they are disolved/diluted in water. By
>adding the acid _slowly_ to the water the heat is slowly generated and
>there is a large heat sink in the form of the bulk of the water.
>
>If you do it the other way around, it may boil and spit back at you--
>especially if in a narrow contianer like a test tube.
>
>Sodium hydroxide, (lye) is also strongly exothermic. If you use it,
>disolve/dilute it slowly too.
I don't want to appear too anal here, but chemicals aren't exothermic or
endothermic. Chemical reactions are exothermic or endothermic. The
dissociation of sulfuric acid in water is exothermic (you don't have to
put any energy into the system to get the reaction to occur-unless there
is a barrier to the reaction; like H2 + O2 to form H2O). This is
dependent on the temperature of the system though. The reaction of NaOH with
water is also exothermic but if you start with cold water, it is not nearly
as dangerous. One other comment about the water to acid mixing; this
mixture gets hot enough that it will crack almost any glass container-
even pyrex!! So if any budding chemists out there decide to try the
water to acid trick, don't use your good crystal. -James
Duran Perkins
It just sounds like a great urban legend to me. Definitely one
of the best I've seen recently...
--Duran Perkins
Joe Woerdeman
>>Just prior to their centennial celebration, Union College in Schenectady,
>>NY completed construction of their new library--which had a spectacular
>>copper roof that almost outshone the sun; not at all appropriate for a
>>centennial event. The Chemistry Dept was asked how best to quickly "age"
>>the roof to a respectable patina-- the cheapest and best method they came
>>up with was to have the entire construction crew urinate in buckets and
>>apply the resulting collection to the roof. It was beautiful.
>>
> It would seem that in the light of this revelation that ammonia
>would do the job, considering that urine contains a large amount of ammonia.>
Geez it;s been years, but isn't this actually an ionic form (NH4 - sorry, no
subscripts) which is a component of the urea molecule? Isn't urea an acid (uh,
already diluted)?
So, this story could be tested out on a penny. Any takers?
Phil Rose
wrote:
> Liver of sulphur is used all the time in jewelry making. It does give a
> patina to most nonferrous metals, including copper (also sliver and gold,
> although for gold it requires heating). The patina obtained is black, not
> green on copper. That's why I had stayed out of this discussion, because
> as an amateur jewelry maker I knew about liver of sulphur, but I saw the
> original post, and he mentioned a green patina for copper. If a black
> patina is what you want, just go to any jewelry making supply store.
> Sometime they are listed under lapidary in the yellow pages.
I also had that same thought (of people probably wanting green) upon
seeing Wayne's comment about using liver of sulfur. But now that I think
of it, some well-known copper items used in furniture are indeed
blackened: namely, the entire line of Stickley hammered-copper hardware
used in their Mission Oak line. I don't know what process they now use (or
for that matter, what Gustav or L&JG used.)
--
Phil Rose
Mark Gwaltney
g" it lightly for a few days with diluted bleach. I have not tried that yet.
I will probably take some experimentation, but it might work.
Another note - after my first trial failed (with the pipe in the bowl) I decided to hang them outside and let them age on their own. After 1.5 years of Rochester, NY weather, they have just turned brown not green. I would not count on just putting them outside to get them to turn green.
Good Luck.
-Mark Gwaltney
DR
>WATER INTO THE ACID, NEVER THE OTHER WAY AROUND.
I always had trouble remembering which way it went until we were
taught a silly little verse in Chem 101 years ago:
Add the acid to the water
Like you always ought'er
-Bob
CQstudios
sure to wash well with clear water. I also hear "yellow Snow" does a good
job on pieces left outside. Copper sulphate is available at any Stain
Glass outfit, it is a by product of making circiut boards there is a lot
around here in silicon valley... sean
Scoundrl
Copper Sulphate is also available at most large lumberyard/home supply
stores like Home Depot and Lowe's. It is in the plumbing or septic tank
sections, where it is sold to prevent roots from growing into drain
lines. It is quite cheap, when purchased in this fashion, but is still
the same thing.
Tom
--
Thomas A. Gauldin Here's to the land of the longleaf pine,
Raleigh, NC The summerland where the sun doth shine,
scou...@nando.net Where the weak grow strong and the strong grow great,
FAX (919) 676-1404 Here's to Downhome, the Old North State.
Douglas S. Caprette
In a previous article, bgi...@exis.net (Bruce W. Given) says:
>Just prior to their centennial celebration, Union College in Schenectady,
>NY completed construction of their new library--which had a spectacular
>copper roof that almost outshone the sun; not at all appropriate for a
>centennial event. The Chemistry Dept was asked how best to quickly "age"
>the roof to a respectable patina-- the cheapest and best method they came
>up with was to have the entire construction crew urinate in buckets and
>apply the resulting collection to the roof. It was beautiful.
>
>
Why'd they bother with the buckets?
Douglas S. Caprette
In a previous article, j...@Eng.Sun.COM (Joe Woerdeman) says:
>In article PAA1...@aone.com, Hank Lough <kn...@AONE.COM> writes:
>>>Just prior to their centennial celebration, Union College in Schenectady,
>>>NY completed construction of their new library--which had a spectacular
>>>copper roof that almost outshone the sun; not at all appropriate for a
>>>centennial event. The Chemistry Dept was asked how best to quickly "age"
>>>the roof to a respectable patina-- the cheapest and best method they came
>>>up with was to have the entire construction crew urinate in buckets and
>>>apply the resulting collection to the roof. It was beautiful.
>>>
>> It would seem that in the light of this revelation that ammonia
>>would do the job, considering that urine contains a large amount of ammonia.>
>
>Geez it;s been years, but isn't this actually an ionic form (NH4 - sorry, no
>subscripts) which is a component of the urea molecule? Isn't urea an acid (uh,
>already diluted)?
>
>So, this story could be tested out on a penny. Any takers?
>
>
>
>
>
Older pennies are made of bronze, not copper. By wieht they are mostly
tin. New pennies are made of zinc and copper coated. I doubt that
either would be a good test for how pure copper flashing etc would
react.
Douglas S. Caprette
In a previous article, kk...@accesscom.net (Jake Hellbach) says:
>Just a question,
>If you are supposed to add acid to water, why do you pour water into
>your car battery? Not the same type of acid?
>Thanks, Jake
>
Yes its the same kind of acid (sulphuric) but its already diluted. Just
the same, add the water slowly expecially if it needs more than a tiny
bit.
Jerry LaVeck
>
>I'm not sure if Joel has actually tried this technique...sulfuric acid
>is used to ETCH copper. Also NEVER, NEVER, NEVER add water to acid (unless
>you like being sprayed with a boiling water/acid mixture)!!! Seriously, the
>heat released in the H2O + H2SO4 to H3O+ + HSO4- is tremendous!! The way to
>remember the is "be like an otter, add acid to water."
I always preferred "acid to water - like ya ough-ter"
Ed Rinehart
>
> Wayne Weber wrote:
>
> Most of discussion deleted....
>
> >
> > When I was in high school we did the patina thing with a vile concoction called
> > "liver of sulfur". I think it might have been a solution of sodium
> > polysulfide--made by disolving sulfur in sodium sulfide solution. Is anyone
> > familiar with this stuff?
> > --
> > ================================================================================
> >
> > Wayne Weber, Senior Dyemeister
> > For the Finest in Designer Dyes
> > Johnson & Johnson Clinical Diagnostics (we...@rl.cldx.com)
> > Phone 716-453-5717
> > FAX 716-453-5689
> >
> > ================================================================================
> > The opinions stated here are those of the author and are not those
> > of Johnson and Johnson Clinical Diagnostics.
>
> patina to most nonferrous metals, including copper (also sliver and gold,
> although for gold it requires heating). The patina obtained is black, not
> green on copper. That's why I had stayed out of this discussion, because
> as an amateur jewelry maker I knew about liver of sulphur, but I saw the
> original post, and he mentioned a green patina for copper. If a black
> patina is what you want, just go to any jewelry making supply store.
> Sometime they are listed under lapidary in the yellow pages.
>
From "The Complete Metalsmith" by Tim McCreight--ISBN0-87192-240-1
Green:
1 Tbsp ammonium chloride
1 Tbsp salt
1 oz ammonia (I assume 28% solution)
1 qt water
mix in plastic container that will never be used for food.
Spray onto chemically clean copper surface and allow to dry
naturally (no torch). Repeat three or four more times
Blue: Fume with ammonia as in fuming oak.
Brown: 1 Tbsp ferric nitrate to a quart of water. Apply as in
"Green" (above)
Ed Rinehart
Bruce Bowler
>
> In a previous article, j...@Eng.Sun.COM (Joe Woerdeman) says:
>
> >In article PAA1...@aone.com, Hank Lough <kn...@AONE.COM> writes:
> >>>Just prior to their centennial celebration, Union College in Schenectady,
> >>>NY completed construction of their new library--which had a spectacular
> >>>copper roof that almost outshone the sun; not at all appropriate for a
> >>>centennial event. The Chemistry Dept was asked how best to quickly "age"
> >>>the roof to a respectable patina-- the cheapest and best method they came
> >>>up with was to have the entire construction crew urinate in buckets and
> >>>apply the resulting collection to the roof. It was beautiful.
Having been a student at the afore mention Union College, I can say that I never
heard that story and that seems like the kind of thing that would be talked about
on campus.
> >So, this story could be tested out on a penny. Any takers?
>
> Older pennies are made of bronze, not copper. By wieht they are mostly
> tin. New pennies are made of zinc and copper coated. I doubt that
> either would be a good test for how pure copper flashing etc would
> react.
Site a source please. All pennies made since it least 1909 and up until 10 (+/-)
years ago, are made of mostly copper (90+%), not mostly tin. Exceptions - one or 2
years durring the war, they were made of steel and recently, as stated they are
copper plate. Even so, copper plate would react chemically, the same way pure
copper would since the plating isn't that thin.
So "pee away"...
--
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allisi...@gmail.com
Sonny
> For the love of god. ..Dont use cat piss.
Sonny
DerbyDad03
> For the love of god. ..Dont use cat piss. Its sposed to be human piss...but dont even use that. Ammonia w/vinegar &salt will do
the copper has done it's own aging by now.