Stacked Dado outlawed in Europe?
Larry W
cuts best?
Thanks
Larry
"David F. Eisan" <dfe...@home.com> wrote in message
news:zK9M4.230357$Hq3.5...@news2.rdc1.on.home.com...
> Dear Europeans,
>
> After reading a number of posts from Europe regarding the ban on stacked
> dado cutters, I have a few questions if anyone would care to take the time
> to answer.
>
> When and why did they become illegal?
> Are wobble dados still legal?
> What about existing saws with long arbors and existing stacked dado sets?
>
> Any further info as to why this happened would be greatly appreciated.
>
> Thanks,
>
> David.
>
> Newbies, please read this newsgroups FAQ.
>
> rec.ww FAQ http://www.robson.org/woodfaq/
> Archives http://x29.deja.com/home_ps.shtml
> crowbar FAQ http://www.concentric.net/~Odeen/oldtools/crowbar.shtml
>
>
David F. Eisan
Chris Rayner
wrote:
As I understand it this is a consequence of EU directives, or some
such. The safety nazis in Brussels have decided that the big gaps in
the table, or the longer arbors which are necessary for dado sets are
dangerous; either that or the dado sets themselves are unsafe.
Personally I think that a routed dado is just as good, and it saves me
from tinkering about with the saw. So far as wobble blades are
concerned, I have seen such kit advertised for sale, so I assume that
it is still legal.
CW
years ago?
--
CW
KC7NOD
Chris Rayner <c.ra...@nospamthanks.ukonline.co.uk> wrote in message
news:3901e4bd...@news.ukonline.co.uk...
Jimbo
socialist or part of Europe (other than geographically, of course) is very
debatable.
--
Jimbo
"CW" <cma...@sprynet.com> wrote in message
news:8dsqvd$q0p$1...@slb1.atl.mindspring.net...
mike hide
wrote:
>Are we jumping to conclusions here, CW? Also, to describe England as either
>socialist or part of Europe (other than geographically, of course) is very
>debatable.
>--
>Jimbo
>
No i dont think so thats the reason I left many years ago ,and its far
more socialist now than it ever was...mjh
Kim Whitmyre
>
Politics has nothing to do with it, my friend. Idiocy, yes.
Kim
John P
> > Socialism at it's finest.
> >
>
> Politics has nothing to do with it, my friend. Idiocy, yes.
>
And the difference is exactly what????
Mark & Juanita
Kim Whitmyre wrote:
> > Socialism at it's finest.
> >
>
> Politics has nothing to do with it, my friend. Idiocy, yes.
>
> Kim
Politics has *everything* to do with it. This is the politics of
the nanny state at its finest. This is the politics that is supported
by people who want an absolutely safe, riskless world. This is
the politics of the state taking care of one and making sure that
you can't hurt yourself or others, the only price is surrendering
a few of your freedoms, but if the payoff is safety, who cares, right?
"Those who are willing to trade a little freedom for safety
deserve neither" Ben Franklin
Kim Whitmyre
> >
> > Kim
>
> Politics has *everything* to do with it. This is the politics of
> the nanny state at its finest. This is the politics that is supported
> by people who want an absolutely safe, riskless world. This is
> the politics of the state taking care of one and making sure that
> you can't hurt yourself or others, the only price is surrendering
> a few of your freedoms, but if the payoff is safety, who cares, right?
>
>
It's interesting that in Europe if you want to go skiing down a 70
degree slope, you can. If you break your leg, well, you wanted to ski
down that slope! Here in the US, due to insurance companies and lawyers,
you can't ski down a 70 degree slope unless it's your own property. And
even then, some one who broke their leg would probably sue the ski maker
for not making them a better skier. . .Corporations drive the state:
guess where they drive it? All the way to the bank.
It's not JUST the state, it's those who use the state for financial
gain. Of which we have plenty in the US of A.
CW
and as far as being part of Europe, they are part of the European union
aren't they? Considering that that was voluntary, I think that question has
been answered.
--
CW
KC7NOD
Jimbo <mai...@NO-SPAMidirect.com> wrote in message
news:xAnM4.1660$Jb6....@quark.idirect.com...
> Are we jumping to conclusions here, CW? Also, to describe England as
either
> socialist or part of Europe (other than geographically, of course) is very
> debatable.
> --
> Jimbo
>
mike hide
>Not jumping to conclusions at all. They (most) will admit to being socialist
>and as far as being part of Europe, they are part of the European union
>aren't they? Considering that that was voluntary, I think that question has
>been answered.
>
It has ? When was the national referendum? must have missed it ,all I
remember is Ted Heath going down on bended knees and kissing every
french ass he could to get in the common market...mjh
Joe Lane
to their food supply go to http://www.kc3.co.uk/~dt/food.html
The definitions are almost alien.
---Joe---
"Chris Rayner" <c.ra...@nospamthanks.ukonline.co.uk> wrote in message
news:3901e4bd...@news.ukonline.co.uk...
> On Sat, 22 Apr 2000 04:18:39 GMT, "David F. Eisan" <dfe...@home.com>
> wrote:
>
Larry Jaques
sniped:
>
>> > Socialism at it's finest.
>> >
>>
>> Politics has nothing to do with it, my friend. Idiocy, yes.
>>
>
>And the difference is exactly what????
Simple idiocy is performed solo. Political idiocy is mandated,
usually by a committee or group. [See: $900 ashtray, affirmative
action, National Endowment for the Arts ($4,000 mudflap), etc.]
To wit: http://www.arts.endow.gov/explore/Gallery/Belichick1.html
I can't believe it's still there after 4 years.
obww: No trees were harmed in the creation/posting of this message.
-------------------------------
Iguana: The other green meat!
-------------------------------
http://diversify.com Comprehensive Website Development
Bookman
John P <x...@y.com> wrote in message news:iMsM4.14654$uy1....@news2.atl...
>
> > > Socialism at it's finest.
> > >
> >
> > Politics has nothing to do with it, my friend. Idiocy, yes.
> >
>
> And the difference is exactly what????
Wonderful!
With their positions on private ownership of firearms, their
socialized healthcare delivery, their "government knows best" attitude,
it really makes no difference WHY they are largely socialist.
The "idiocy", IMO, is in why their people allowed it to happen.
But, when one's on security becomes more important than one's freedom,
bad things happen. Look around this part of the world!
The devil made me jump in here before the police arrest us all for being
off-topic.
Keith A. Lahteine
universal agreement that your post eludes to I wonder, exactly, which countries
you are referring to .
In other words, are we to believe that the entire, "European Continent",
reached a similar consensus . Does this ruling, then, include all of the
counties which occupy the confines of the, "European Continent" . This
indicates a level of agreement that we would wish for in our own government .
Sincerely : Keith A. Lahteine
Chris Rayner wrote:
--
џиџр
Pat Daniels
<klah...@audiobox.com> wrote:
>In that Europe consists of a number of counties all of them in much less
>universal agreement that your post eludes to I wonder, exactly, which countries
>you are referring to .
>In other words, are we to believe that the entire, "European Continent",
>reached a similar consensus . Does this ruling, then, include all of the
>counties which occupy the confines of the, "European Continent" . This
>indicates a level of agreement that we would wish for in our own government .
>
>
>Sincerely : Keith A. Lahteine
I believe the post referred to the countries in the European Union,
not the European Continent. You might wish for this level of
agreement in our government; I most certainly do not.
Pat
Jimbo
unusual for rec.woodworking :)
Each country in the EU is still governed by a democratically elected
government in that country - this has not changed. That national government
is still responsible for governing it's own territory and citizens. Various
institutions of the EU have responsibility for common issues. Also each
country elects members to the European Parliament. In very loose terms, it
is somewhat similar to the United States of America with state and federal
government having different levels of responsibility. In Europe, it is rare
to find a country forced into doing something their national government
doesn't want.
On the subject at hand, I have communicated with some of my fellow
woodworkers in the UK and Ireland and they do not appear to know anything
about this "dado" issue. Can anyone tell me the origin of the report?
--
Jimbo
"Pat Daniels" <plda...@erols.com> wrote in message
news:39036add...@news.erols.com...
BennyHill
mike hide <mike...@atl.mediaone.net> wrote in message
news:3902921c...@news.atl.mediaone.net...
> On Sun, 23 Apr 2000 04:43:35 -0700, "CW" <cma...@sprynet.com>
wrote:
>
> >Not jumping to conclusions at all. They (most) will admit to being
socialist
> >and as far as being part of Europe, they are part of the European
union
> >aren't they? Considering that that was voluntary, I think that
question has
> >been answered.
> >
> It has ? When was the national referendum? must have missed it ,all
I
> remember is Ted Heath going down on bended knees and kissing every
> french ass he could to get in the common market...mjh
> >CW
> >KC7NOD
The referendum was in 1975 (after the UK had joined but still a
voluntary choice to stay in). You must have been 'living it large' to
miss it :)
Even without the referendum the choice could still clearly be argued
to be voluntary as it was taken by a democratically elected govt -->
elected to take such decisions on behalf of the people (referendums
never being a part of the UK political scene until 1975).
Some detail on this reside at www.martinhill.free-online.co.uk
under the eu documents section
Pat Daniels
merely stated that I would prefer not to have a my national government
(or worse still, some supranational body) dictate how I cut my dados.
It is my understanding that the EU has the ability to promulgate
regulations which have the force of law on the citizens of it's member
countries. I do not see how this is at odds with your statement that
" Various institutions of the EU have responsibility for common
issues." If, as you say, the EU and it's member nations are analogous
to the federal/state governments of the United States, then the
members have indeed surrendered their sovereignty.
As to the origin of dado issue, a poster from the UK said that the EU
had decreed the arbors on table saws (Or was it radial arm saws?
Sorry, my ignorance is showing again) be made so short as to preclude
mounting a stacked dado set. I made the assumption that he knew what
he was talking about.
Pat
On Sun, 23 Apr 2000 22:48:33 GMT, "Jimbo" <mai...@NO-SPAMidirect.com>
wrote:
mike hide
<Martin_S_H...@hotmail.com> wrote:
>
>mike hide <mike...@atl.mediaone.net> wrote in message
>news:3902921c...@news.atl.mediaone.net...
>> On Sun, 23 Apr 2000 04:43:35 -0700, "CW" <cma...@sprynet.com>
>wrote:
>>
>> >Not jumping to conclusions at all. They (most) will admit to being
>socialist
>> >and as far as being part of Europe, they are part of the European
>union
>> >aren't they? Considering that that was voluntary, I think that
>question has
>> >been answered.
>> >
>> It has ? When was the national referendum? must have missed it ,all
>I
>> remember is Ted Heath going down on bended knees and kissing every
>> french ass he could to get in the common market...mjh
>> >CW
>> >KC7NOD
>
>The referendum was in 1975 (after the UK had joined but still a
>voluntary choice to stay in). You must have been 'living it large' to
>miss it :)
sorry I had had it with socialism in 72 and left the country,I saw my
freedoms going down the tubes then and of course having another
[obviously quite corrupt] government in Brussles left little doubt
that even less freedoms would be left.
David F. Eisan
My point was not to start a debate on the merits of the unification of Europe or the virtues of socialism, I simply could not
remember the country from across the pond that someone posted from mentioning that all the new saw arbors are too short for stacked
dados, so I generalised 'Europe' hoping that anyone from the correct country in that part of the world might read it and reply.
I can now recall that the person was from the U.K. and am still hoping that I will get a reply even remotely related to factual
information as to whether stacked dados are indeed in effect outlawed with new regulations requiring short arbors on new table saws
and the reasons for this change in law.
I can hope at least,
Thanks,
David.
When I grow up, I want to be older.
mike hide
wrote:
>Dear All,
>So who cares anyway...mjh
Daniel Willard
1) Stacked Dados are Illegal in Europe?
2) European Arbors are too short to handle Stacked Dados? :-(
3) Greatest Troll in the past six months?
Which is it!
--
Daniel Willard
Spirits Apprentice
mike hide <mike...@atl.mediaone.net> wrote in message
news:3903e375...@news.atl.mediaone.net...
Chris Rayner
<dwi...@swcp.com> wrote:
>Could we focus here!
>
>1) Stacked Dados are Illegal in Europe?
>2) European Arbors are too short to handle Stacked Dados? :-(
>3) Greatest Troll in the past six months?
--------------------8<----------------------
All three. 2) because of 1). 3) self-evidently.
Pete Miles
"Daniel Willard" <dwi...@swcp.com> wrote in message
news:8e38ih$aeg$1...@sloth.swcp.com...
> Could we focus here!
>
> 1) Stacked Dados are Illegal in Europe?
Yes
> 2) European Arbors are too short to handle Stacked Dados? :-(
Yes
> 3) Greatest Troll in the past six months?
Maybe :-)
I've had a couple of chats with Ron Styles who heads up Axminster Power
tools, one of the largest, if not the largest, tool store in the UK. He says
that Euroland legislation prevents selling dado cutters with saws as they
are deemed to be too dangerous. Typical of the overbearing nanny system that
pervades Euroland and the UK these days.
So dados? well we have to do it the hard way using a table saw with several
passes or use a router bit.
Pete
West Dorset
england
Charles Self
>> 1) Stacked Dados are Illegal in Europe?
>
>Yes
>
>> 2) European Arbors are too short to handle Stacked Dados? :-(
>
>Yes
>
And this isnot just for commercial use, as could happen in the U.S. if OSHA
decides stacked dados are not as safe as wobblers?
How do they enforce this idiotic nonsense when any machine shop can turn out a
longer arbor?
Charlie Self
Word Worker
Pete Miles
"Charles Self" <charl...@aol.com> wrote in message
news:20000425083323...@ng-cd1.aol.com...
> Peter Miles asks:
>
> >> 1) Stacked Dados are Illegal in Europe?
> >
> >Yes
> >
> >> 2) European Arbors are too short to handle Stacked Dados? :-(
> >
>Yes
> Snip
> How do they enforce this idiotic nonsense
I'm not sure they could Charlie except of course at a commercial level and
what company is going to risk the wrath of the Euroland Bureaucraps as well
as the 'crats of their own Government?
when any machine shop can turn out a longer arbor?>
Well yes, this can be done,but it isn't so easy to find a small metal work
shop who will do this.
>
> Charlie Self
> Word Worker
Pete
West Dorset
England
DHall1157
>government in that country - this has not changed. That national government
>is still responsible for governing it's own territory and citizens. Various
>institutions of the EU have responsibility for common issues. Also each
>country elects members to the European Parliament. In very loose terms, it
>is somewhat similar to the United States of America with state and federal
>government having different levels of responsibility. In Europe, it is rare
>to find a country forced into doing something their national government
>doesn't want.
>
Just had to jump in here. This describes to a reasonable degree what the US WAS
prior to the Civil War. The States were reasonably free and the federal gov't
was reasonably limited. No longer :(
It is now a joke to consider the States as anything more than local
administrative units. The federal gov't can control all governing functions
either directly or by taxing us and then "giving" us back our money IF we
follow their directives.
Has anybody (i.e Supreme Court) read the 9th and 10th Amendments to the
Constitution lately??
Dave Hall
lha...@unm.edu
>> >
>> >Yes
>> >
>> >> 2) European Arbors are too short to handle Stacked Dados? :-(
>> >
> >Yes
>
>
>I'm not sure they could Charlie except of course at a commercial level and
>what company is going to risk the wrath of the Euroland Bureaucraps as well
>as the 'crats of their own Government?
>
>when any machine shop can turn out a longer arbor?>
>
>Well yes, this can be done,but it isn't so easy to find a small metal work
>shop who will do this.
>
Well they could ( and probably will ) make it illegal to own
one, just as they have with guns. Then anyone who makes one
is guilty of a crime sufficient for a long time in prison.
Another incremental deprivation of freedom. :-(
First thing you know they (the EC folks ) and can we be far behind,
will have to have special permission to wipe our noses. [ or you
fill in the blank ]
now how many blank lines do I need to have "new stuff equal to
quoted" to make the mailer deamon happy? :-(
...lew...
CW
--
CW
KC7NOD
Pete Miles <pet...@netcomuk.co.uk> wrote in message
news:8e47kl$359$1...@taliesin2.netcom.net.uk...
>
> Well yes, this can be done,but it isn't so easy to find a small metal work
> shop who will do this.
>
> >
> > >
>
> Pete
>
> West Dorset
> England
>
>
CW
here. You usually don't have a clue what you are making. It's just a thing,
buyers responsibility.
--
CW
KC7NOD
<lha...@unm.edu> wrote in message news:8e4cbi$1q...@mirac.unm.edu...
Pat Daniels
>
>Has anybody (i.e Supreme Court) read the 9th and 10th Amendments to the
>Constitution lately??
>
>
>Dave Hall
Nah, since the Warren court, they pretty much just make it up as they
go along.
Pat
Al Taylor
Another reason to think twice before you decide if you want to pass a
LAW to "make a difference".
Do you want your hobby or livelyhood mandated simply because some
moron stuck his damn hand (actually I hope it was his head) into a
spinning dado blade?
Think about this the next time you decide it's your duty to write to
your legislator to pass a new law.
Al
Kim Whitmyre
> go along.
>
And the sad part is very few notice. . .
Kim
Daniel Willard
Sucks in fact!
--
Daniel Willard
Spirits Apprentice
Pete Miles <pet...@netcomuk.co.uk> wrote in message
news:8e3loe$ki$1...@taliesin2.netcom.net.uk...
>
> "Daniel Willard" <dwi...@swcp.com> wrote in message
> news:8e38ih$aeg$1...@sloth.swcp.com...
> > Could we focus here!
> >
> > 1) Stacked Dados are Illegal in Europe?
>
> Yes
>
> > 2) European Arbors are too short to handle Stacked Dados? :-(
>
> Yes
>
Mark & Juanita
Kim Whitmyre wrote:
Ah, but it's for the sake of the children ....
:-( The encroaching government's excuse of the 90's and beyond.
[Note to Kim, I apologize for the personal e-mail sent to you -- I hit the
wrong reply button (stupid finger, stupid, stupid finger)]
Mark & Juanita
Al Taylor wrote:
Usually when I am writing a congresscritter, it is because I feel the
duty to object to them attempting to pass *another* @#$% law and
ask them to *not* pass the stupid law.
Pat Daniels
tool ever could.
Pat
>On Tue, 25 Apr 2000 20:44:41 -0600, "Daniel Willard" <dwi...@swcp.com> wrote:
>Thanks Pete. That is a pretty scary situation to have to live with for sure!
>Sucks in fact!
>
>Daniel Willard
>Spirits Apprentice
Al Taylor
Al Taylor wrote:
>
>> Another reason to think twice before you decide if you want to pass a
>> LAW to "make a difference".
>>
>> Do you want your hobby or livelyhood mandated simply because some
>> moron stuck his damn hand (actually I hope it was his head) into a
>> spinning dado blade?
>>
>> Think about this the next time you decide it's your duty to write to
>> your legislator to pass a new law.
>>
>> Al
On 26 Apr 2000 00:23:35 EDT, Mark & Juanita <nos...@hadenough.com>
wrote:
>Usually when I am writing a congresscritter, it is because I feel the
>duty to object to them attempting to pass *another* @#$% law and
>ask them to *not* pass the stupid law.
>
Good point, me too!
Al
Kirby Gehman
than a stacked? The slot in the table has to be the same width, the
cut is the same width and depth...
I think I'm missing something here...
--Kirby
Sent via Deja.com http://www.deja.com/
Before you buy.
R. Thomas Cavaness
with a simple question about dado heads! And you didn't really get an
answer to the question!
vive la Usenet!
Tom
David F. Eisan <dfe...@home.com> wrote in message
news:zK9M4.230357$Hq3.5...@news2.rdc1.on.home.com...
> Dear Europeans,
>
> After reading a number of posts from Europe regarding the ban on stacked
> dado cutters, I have a few questions if anyone would care to take the time
> to answer.
>
> When and why did they become illegal?
> Are wobble dados still legal?
> What about existing saws with long arbors and existing stacked dado sets?
>
> Any further info as to why this happened would be greatly appreciated.
>
> Thanks,
>
> David.
CW
--
CW
KC7NOD
Kirby Gehman <geh...@my-deja.com> wrote in message
news:8e7ae9$hfe$1...@nnrp1.deja.com...
richard wardrop
better than its people.
On the same note I just read that the US Justice Department is pushing a
document that shows that in the six or so years since the UK essentially
banned any kind of firearm that an Englishman is now more likely than an
American to be shot (with a gun). Its only a matter of time before the UK
equivalent to OSHA determines that woodworkers trying to line up pass after
pass on their table saw is getting them cut-up even more and do the logical
next step: ban table saws.
S S Law NH
start up again. Remember - "They came for the gypsies and I didn't speak up;
then they came for the Jews and I didn't speak up. Then they came for me, and
nobody spoke up."
Jay
John Milton
S S Law NH (ssl...@aol.com) wrote:
: We, here in the "free" US should keep this thread in mind when the anti-gunners
simo...@my-deja.com
"R. Thomas Cavaness" <r.thomas...@free.fr> wrote:
> I think it's amazing that you could start such an uncivil political
squabble
> with a simple question about dado heads! And you didn't really get an
> answer to the question!
Agreed!
Apart from Internet libertarianism, is there really any safety
difference between stacked and wobble dado blades?
I'm pondering buying one before I have to vote again, so please leave
the politics out of it.
mike hide
Dont buy the wobble ,it does not produce an accurate dado ,the stacked
dado does...mjh
S S Law NH
try the Forrest.
Jay (w/o the politics)
Dave Mundt
WHile, in general, I tend to agree that a stack dado blade is
better than a wobble style, I DO feel that I have to point out that if
one gets a DOUBLE BLADE wobble dado, that can, and will produce pretty
decent cuts. THe only drawback I find with mine is that I have to set
the blade a hair wider than I want, as the blade will narrow up a tad
when it spins up.
Also, I would strongly recommend that you send the blade out to be
sharpened to a 600 grit finish...MINE cut like gangbusters after I
took care of this little problem...
Regards
Dave Mundt
mike...@atl.mediaone.net (mike hide) wrote:
Remove the "REMOVE_THIS_" from my email address to get to me...
I hate Cullers who gather from newsgroups
Visit my home page at http://www.esper.com/xvart/index.html
John Harpur
increased the volume and quantity of safety legislation. It is common
here to find people with hand injuries in joineries (same in UK from
where we import several types of timber IMHO). All new machinery in a
joinery must carry the CE stamp (safe to use under X, Y and Z
EU protocols) and this has been the case for about seven years.
All machinery produced outside the EU must apply for a CE stamp if
it is to be used by anyone else except the owner. If an accident arises
as a result of a machine not having a CE stamp and that machine
being installed within the last few years, any insurance cover is
invalidated. When I was much younger a witnessed a young chap
having his hand cut off by a logging saw, in other instances I have
seen two peole lose fingers and finger tips to the deadly shaper, and
at least two or three plane off their palms. The EU is correct in outlawing
any devices that might cause harm.
Dave Mundt wrote in message <390b8288...@news.esper.com>...
Charles Self
>When I was much younger a witnessed a young chap
>having his hand cut off by a logging saw, in other instances I have
>seen two peole lose fingers and finger tips to the deadly shaper, and
>at least two or three plane off their palms. The EU is correct in outlawing
>any devices that might cause harm.
Were those accidents because the machinery was unsafe, or the operators were
not up to speed? I can't quite see planing off one's palm as the fault of
machinery. The others might or might not have been.
The last concept means I'll be ready to turn in my pocket knife.
I'm sorry, but I don't believe governments and their minions automatically, or
manually, have a better handle on safety than do professionals in a field. In
fact, every timeI think of something like this, I remember the U.S. Senate &
House in the '70s trying to get seat belt legislation for motorcycles.
I think that almost any edged tool MAY be unsafe if used incorrectly. I know
most edged power tools, and many non-edged, are unsafe IF used without caution.
I think that most people recognize that fact, and are damned unlikely to slip a
hand into, or jump onto, a stacked dado.
Too, no one has yet given any kind of specifics about why a stacked dado is
less safe than a wobble dado. THe government says so?
Pshaw, to be polite.
Charlie Self
Word Worker
Al Taylor
wrote:
>We run a joinery here (Ireland) and membership of the EU has
>increased the volume and quantity of safety legislation. It is common
>here to find people with hand injuries in joineries (same in UK from
>where we import several types of timber IMHO). All new machinery in a
>joinery must carry the CE stamp (safe to use under X, Y and Z
>EU protocols) and this has been the case for about seven years.
>All machinery produced outside the EU must apply for a CE stamp if
>it is to be used by anyone else except the owner. If an accident arises
>as a result of a machine not having a CE stamp and that machine
>being installed within the last few years, any insurance cover is
>invalidated. When I was much younger a witnessed a young chap
>having his hand cut off by a logging saw, in other instances I have
>seen two peole lose fingers and finger tips to the deadly shaper, and
>at least two or three plane off their palms. The EU is correct in outlawing
>any devices that might cause harm.
(this must be a troll, but what the hell)
Gosh, if you stick a wire into an electrical outlet you could get
hurt. Lets outlaw electrical outlets.
Hey, if you jab yourself in the eye with a fork, it could put your eye
out. Let's outlaw forks.
Whoa, if you hit your thumb with a hammer, THAT HURTS! Let's outlaw
hammers.
Maybe you're just hanging around a bunch of careless morons. I'd get
out of that town if I were you.
Come on John, we're all big boys here. Do you really need a daddy or a
big brother looking over your shoulder all the time?
Al
Joe Lane
This is absolute rubbish. Of coarse you are going to get injured
if you put your hand in the saw or the planer or the fan belt
of your automobile. You cannot legislate common sense and
to penalize those who use common sense because some do not
is ridiculous.
---Joe---
John Harpur <jha...@indigo.ie> wrote in message
news:vhcP4.9247$sB3....@news.indigo.ie...
> We run a joinery here (Ireland) and membership of the EU has
> increased the volume and quantity of safety legislation. It is common
> here to find people with hand injuries in joineries (same in UK from
> where we import several types of timber IMHO). All new machinery in a
> joinery must carry the CE stamp (safe to use under X, Y and Z
> EU protocols) and this has been the case for about seven years.
> All machinery produced outside the EU must apply for a CE stamp if
> it is to be used by anyone else except the owner. If an accident arises
> as a result of a machine not having a CE stamp and that machine
> being installed within the last few years, any insurance cover is
> invalidated. When I was much younger a witnessed a young chap
> having his hand cut off by a logging saw, in other instances I have
> seen two peole lose fingers and finger tips to the deadly shaper, and
> at least two or three plane off their palms. The EU is correct in
outlawing
> any devices that might cause harm.
>
>
Kirby Gehman
banned.
The whole "big brother" thing aside, why did they pick on stacked
dadoes?
Are they less dangerous than wobbles? Why?
It's like looking at the huge number of auto accidents, deciding to do
something about it and banning Oldsmobiles only. The action doesn't
fit the problem.
Can ANYONE answer why they think that stacked are worthy of banning and
wobbles aren't? (no "because they are stupid" answers, please!) :-)
--Kirby
Arthur J. Faske
fixed, but one may be tempted to add too many chippers to a stacked set and
not leave enough threads on the spindle (arbor?) to safely tighten the nut.
AJ
"Kirby Gehman" <geh...@my-deja.com> wrote in message
news:8ekaku$coo$1...@nnrp1.deja.com...
Joe Lane
spindle.
---Joe---
Arthur J. Faske <73052...@compuserve.com> wrote in message
news:8ekd3k$724$1...@ssauraab-i-1.production.compuserve.com...
Dave Mundt
I agree, to a certain extent, that it is important to have
regulations that increase the safety of a VERY dangerous occupation.
HOWEVER...I should point out that your blanket statement that "The EU
is correct in outlawing any devices that might cause harm." would
mean that automobiles should IMMEDIATELY be banned...or have their
insurance coverage cancelled. Also, it would mean that any
non-automated machine would have to be removed from service. The only
way to eliminate harm from life is to not allow folks to do
ANYTHING... This also seems to preclude woodcarvers and stone-masons
from plying their trade.
From an American viewpoint, I think that the legislation should
have stopped at the point of requiring shields on moving parts. To go
on and say that a very useful tool (the dado blade) is too dangerous
for ANYONE to use verges on the edge of paternalistic madness. I, for
one, have been using dado blades for decades, and, have never suffered
an injury from it. For that matter, I have been using chainsaws,
table saws, routers, jointers and OTHER sharp, scary bits for decades,
and, not only have all my fingers, have very few scars to show for it.
MOST of the injuries that I see documented, and, ALL of the three or
four times that I have gotten bit, came because I, or someone, was
being stupid, and, either trying to push the machine too hard or too
fast, or, was not using even the most elemental safety precautions.
As an example, when sawing, either with the bandsaw, or the tablesaw,
I ALWAYS use a push stick towards the end of the cut. The only time I
was bitten by the bandwas came when I did NOT use a push stick.
The fact of the matter is that life is dangerous. We can make it
LESS dangerous, but, we cannot make it SAFE. I tend to draw the line
at the point that this striving for safety starts making it harder for
me to get work done. Guards on belts and pullys are GREAT. Guards
on jointer and tablesaw blades are great...although can get in the way
at times. Making it impossible to USE a dado blade is NOT great, as
it removes a useful tool from my grasp.
Regards
Dave Mundt
"John Harpur" <jha...@indigo.ie> wrote:
>We run a joinery here (Ireland) and membership of the EU has
>increased the volume and quantity of safety legislation. It is common
>here to find people with hand injuries in joineries (same in UK from
>where we import several types of timber IMHO). All new machinery in a
>joinery must carry the CE stamp (safe to use under X, Y and Z
>EU protocols) and this has been the case for about seven years.
>All machinery produced outside the EU must apply for a CE stamp if
>it is to be used by anyone else except the owner. If an accident arises
>as a result of a machine not having a CE stamp and that machine
>being installed within the last few years, any insurance cover is
>invalidated. When I was much younger a witnessed a young chap
>having his hand cut off by a logging saw, in other instances I have
>seen two peole lose fingers and finger tips to the deadly shaper, and
>at least two or three plane off their palms. The EU is correct in outlawing
>any devices that might cause harm.
>
>
*snip*
mike hide
wrote:
>None of this really explains why stacked dadoes in particular are
>banned.
>
>The whole "big brother" thing aside, why did they pick on stacked
>dadoes?
>
>Are they less dangerous than wobbles? Why?
>
>It's like looking at the huge number of auto accidents, deciding to do
>something about it and banning Oldsmobiles only. The action doesn't
>fit the problem.
>
>Can ANYONE answer why they think that stacked are worthy of banning and
>wobbles aren't? (no "because they are stupid" answers, please!) :-)
>
>--Kirby
>
>
>Sent via Deja.com http://www.deja.com/
>Before you buy.
Al hit the nail on the head, or was it the nail on his thumb? As far
as you , Kirby are concerned, you need to be more careful what you say
Our illustrious mayor [of Atlanta] wants to sue gun manufacturers
because "guns" kill people ,next thing the idiot will realize cars do
too ,and we will all be taking "shanks pony"...mjh
Pat Daniels
>The EU is correct in outlawing any devices that might cause harm.
This is the single most empty-headed, moronic statement I have ever
encountered in visual form. I would not have thought it possible that
an individual could be his totally devoid of cerebral activity and not
be on life-support.
Pat
David Shepherd
>
>(this must be a troll, but what the hell)
Why? I agree.
What this thread clearly shows is that many of you don't understand
the culture differences between the U.S. and the U.K. (and Europe)
Differences which mean that you wouldn't want to live here and we
wouldn't want to live in the U.S.
The fundamental right to do more or less anything you like without any
government interference is an intrinsic part of American culture and
is indeed one of the main reasons why your forefathers left Europe and
fought for independence in the first place. I'm not saying your
attitude is wrong, just that over here we think differently.
It's not a case of Big Brother or a Nanny State - it's one of the
things we elect our government to do. We expect them to take expert
advice and pass laws which prevent unnecessarily dangerous practices.
We have experienced the opposite, when Thacher de-regulated the
animal feed industry. It caused the BSE crisis and the decimation of
the British Beef farming industry.
Whether banning stacked dado cutters was ill-advised is a different
matter and one I can't comment on never having used one. But at the
end of the day, it's not the only way to cut dadoes!
One consequence of this is that we don't have a society where as soon
as we mess up we go to a lawyer (attorney) to find out who we can sue.
I like it like that, but that's my choice.
Dave
*********************
David Shepherd
a.guz...@virgin.net
Jeff LaCoss
Dave,
I have a double-blade wobble, and it CAN make decent cuts.
However, getting it to do so CONSISTENTLY is another matter
altogether...
> WHile, in general, I tend to agree that a stack dado blade is
> better than a wobble style, I DO feel that I have to point out that if
> one gets a DOUBLE BLADE wobble dado, that can, and will produce pretty
> decent cuts.
I don't disagree with your text, but the tone might get a few
folks running out to buy wobble-style rather than good stacked
dado sets. Yes, folks, wobblers are less money. BUT they will
never be a completely satisfactory replacement for a good
stacked set.
Clean out the bottom corners of a few cuts and you'll see what
I mean.
Jeff
David Shepherd
hide) wrote:
>Al hit the nail on the head, or was it the nail on his thumb? As far
>as you , Kirby are concerned, you need to be more careful what you say
>Our illustrious mayor [of Atlanta] wants to sue gun manufacturers
>because "guns" kill people ,next thing the idiot will realize cars do
>too ,and we will all be taking "shanks pony"...mjh
No doubt he would argue that guns are meant for killing people whereas
cars are not.....
mike hide
Obviously you have never driven in atlanta...mjh
Joe
brought it up, Ted Kennedy's car has killed more people than all of my guns
combined. Guns which were designed for target shooting and hunting, not
killing people.
David Shepherd wrote:
> On Mon, 01 May 2000 17:55:15 GMT, mike...@atl.mediaone.net (mike
> hide) wrote:
>
> >Al hit the nail on the head, or was it the nail on his thumb? As far
> >as you , Kirby are concerned, you need to be more careful what you say
> >Our illustrious mayor [of Atlanta] wants to sue gun manufacturers
> >because "guns" kill people ,next thing the idiot will realize cars do
> >too ,and we will all be taking "shanks pony"...mjh
> No doubt he would argue that guns are meant for killing people whereas
> cars are not.....
>
> This thread is becoming somewhat removed from woodworking, but since you
> brought it up, Ted Kennedy's car has killed more people than all of my
> guns combined. Guns which were designed for target shooting and hunting,
> not killing people. Joe.
Daniel Willard
do it for you. Politicians over here seem to be out of work lawyers so we do
like the option of doing what we want when we please to do it. We still have
to live with our neighbors so we are not totally uncivilized. Most of us are
pretty damned proud of our outlaw heritage! Contrary to some history books,
it really wasn't the natives that threw the King's tea overboard!
I know I should have just kept my mouth shut. I just think people need to
put their brain in gear before they turn the saw on and run their hands
through the dado!
--
Daniel Willard
Spirits Apprentice
David Shepherd <a.guzziman@real-address-in-sig> wrote in message
news:fporgscme43d19mpi...@4ax.com...
Rob Weaver
> <snip>
> I'm sorry, but I don't believe governments and their minions automatically, or
> manually, have a better handle on safety than do professionals in a field. In
> fact, every timeI think of something like this, I remember the U.S. Senate &
> House in the '70s trying to get seat belt legislation for motorcycles.
<snip>
And every time I run across this, I remember reading that around the
year 1900 (give or take a couple) one of our fine state legislatures
(Indiana, I think) decreed that the number *pi* was equal the three.
So much for a government knowing what's good for us. And that's why the
automotive industry was never big in the midwest, people wouldn't buy
car with tires that only went in 343 degree arcs instead of full
circles.
All the best,
Rob Weaver
Andy Dingley
>How many laws are we willing to pass to protect us from ourselves.
A "reasonable number" I imagine, but we'd all disagree on "reasonable"
I've never used either a wobble or a stacked dado, so I couldn't
comment on this specific case.
OTOH, I understand that two very similar rules already exist that
require saws to have their guards in operation when in use, and also
that planer shafts should be solid cylinders with the minimum of chip
clearance, not the old hand-grabbing square bars. I see both of these
rules as eminently sensible, reasonable and a good thing.
If this law is enacted, then how is it enforced ? Presumably it's
only applicable anyway to those who are either industrial premises
with employees, or to suppliers of new equipment ? If some
safety-Luddite wants to shove bodyparts into a stacked dado cutter in
the privacy of their own shed, then can the law actually apply to this
case anyway ?
--
Do whales have krillfiles ?
Andy Dingley
>Our illustrious mayor [of Atlanta] wants to sue gun manufacturers
>because "guns" kill people
No ! We've had this thread already !
Guns don't kill people, reinforced mailboxes kill people !
Andy Dingley
>This is the single most empty-headed, moronic statement I have ever
>encountered in visual form.
Are you new to Usenet ? 8-)
>>The EU is correct in outlawing any devices that might cause harm.
I back the EU on this one. Most joinery accidents aren't
home-workers, or even one-person shops. They're under-trained,
under-experienced teenagers, working for poor wages in workshops where
the employer is trying to cut any corner possible.
If _you_ think a cutter or machine is unsafe, then it's _your_
responsibility or option to replace it, or live with the danger.
OTOH, If you're working for Mr Gradgrind, it's his money that gets
saved by using the old wreck of a machine, and your fingers that get
chopped by it. One of the legitimate purposes of government (and
trade unionism) is defending the safety of industrial workers who
aren't otherwise in a position to make their working practices safe.
--
Smert' Spamionam
mike hide
<din...@codesmiths.com> wrote:
>plda...@erols.com (Pat Daniels) a écrit :
>
>>This is the single most empty-headed, moronic statement I have ever
>>encountered in visual form.
>
>Are you new to Usenet ? 8-)
>
>>>The EU is correct in outlawing any devices that might cause harm.
>
>I back the EU on this one. Most joinery accidents aren't
>home-workers, or even one-person shops. They're under-trained,
>under-experienced teenagers, working for poor wages in workshops where
>the employer is trying to cut any corner possible.
are you ithe us or the uk ?I suspect the latter .If am correctI think
you will find there are far more "hobby"shops in the us than in the uk
.
Again in thne uk do you think the unions for one and secondly
goverment regulations would allow teenagers to do that kind of work
especially when they are now prohibited from doing paper rounds...mjh
S S Law NH
You really don't get it do you. The real difference between the two countries
is that while we might possibly have a "Big Brother state", you guys definitely
have a "nanny state"!!! You'll always be "nannys"
Pat Daniels
>plda...@erols.com (Pat Daniels) a écrit :
>
>>This is the single most empty-headed, moronic statement I have ever
>>encountered in visual form.
>
>On Tue, 02 May 2000 02:00:19 +0100, Andy Dingley <din...@codesmiths.com> wrote:
>I back the EU on this one.
Andy
Read what he wrote again. Any substance - cotton balls, distilled
water, _anything_ - can "cause harm" if incorrectly used. The idea of
giving any goverment carte banche to outlaw "any device that can cause
harm" in absolute insanity.
Pat
Pat Daniels
<din...@codesmiths.com> wrote:
>If this law is enacted, then how is it enforced ? Presumably it's
>only applicable anyway to those who are either industrial premises
>with employees, or to suppliers of new equipment ?
Apparently you missed the trial balloon OSHA floated about regulating
home hobby shops.
Pat
Dave Mundt
Hum...that is a point. I will cheerfully admit that the BEST TOOL
for running on the table saw, and getting square, flat-bottom dadoes
IS a stack dado blade.
However, with the proviso I mentioned, I get quite adequite
service from my double-blade unit, and, it cost me about 25% of the
cost of a good stack unit.
When I need really precise dadoes, I usually use the router
anyway....*smile*
Regards
Dave Mundt
Jeff LaCoss <jla...@isi.edu> wrote:
>This is a multi-part message in MIME format.
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>--------------5FFAB34EDE17E2ECC0ABE329--
Al Taylor
Whew, I just got home from work (boy are my legs tired) and I see this
thread has been busy.
Good.
I think Shepard's view is perhaps tarnished by his acquiescence to a
government. I don't believe it's a case of thinking differently.
I wasn't interested in whatever cultural differences there may be
between the US and the UK, I was just wanting to make sure that we do
everything we can to prevent this type of thing from happening here.
And I think David, if you had ever used a stacked dado head you would
understand how ridiculous a ban on such a useful device like this
would be. To try to justify this ban with whatever problems may have
resulted from the deregulation of the animal feed industry is equally
ridiculous.
And by the way, how did Ted Kennedy get into this thread? : )
cracked me up!
oh well....
Al
Mark & Juanita
David Shepherd wrote:
> On Mon, 01 May 2000 17:55:15 GMT, mike...@atl.mediaone.net (mike
> hide) wrote:
>
> >Al hit the nail on the head, or was it the nail on his thumb? As far
> >as you , Kirby are concerned, you need to be more careful what you say
> >Our illustrious mayor [of Atlanta] wants to sue gun manufacturers
> >because "guns" kill people ,next thing the idiot will realize cars do
> >too ,and we will all be taking "shanks pony"...mjh
>
> No doubt he would argue that guns are meant for killing people whereas
> cars are not.....
>
Bzzzt! Sorry, but thanks for playing. Guns are meant (despite
Hollyweird's
only depictions of guns) for
1. Serving as a ranged weapon for such things as rattlesnakes (I have a
4
year old and am not going to take any chances with a "live and let live"
philosophy).
2. Target shooting.
3. Hunting and pest control.
4. Self-defense. It would take local law enforcement a minimum of 30
minutes
to reach my home in an emergency. I would really prefer to be reporting to
the
police what happened when they show up rather than having them report
about what happened to me after they got here.
Bottom line, a gun is an inanimate object. A tool that is used by the
person
handling it, either for good or ill, no better or no worse than the person
behind it.
Just as a person who owns a diesel fuel tank and a storage shed with
fertilizer in
it can either be raising crops or razing buildings, it is the person behind
the tool
that we need to be concentrating upon, not the inanimate object itself.
Charles Self
>I back the EU on this one. Most joinery accidents aren't
>home-workers, or even one-person shops. They're under-trained,
>under-experienced teenagers, working for poor wages in workshops where
>the employer is trying to cut any corner possible.
Love this depiction of the Scrooge cabinetmaking industry. I'm sure a couple
friends who own and run cabinet shops will, too.
Wages may be poor--here on the edge of Appalachia, it's damned near impossible
to hire anyone for anything at under 7 bucks an hour--but in most cases,
foremen (and women) and shop owners are pretty strict with basic safety
instruction, whether or not the hiree is an under-trained, under-experienced
teenager.
Some probably do cut the occasional corner, but I've never seen one cut a
safety corner. It's usually in materials, and usually in my opinion.
OSHA does a fair to poor job of setting regs and keeping tabs, too.
My first cabinetry shop job, the foreman walked me around the machines, most of
which, at 16, I'd never seen before, and pointed out the zone of kickback, etc.
That was upwards of 40 years ago. Somehow, I doubt iot is different now.
Thus, if my government wants to shorten the arbor on my tablesaw, past, present
or future, my government can go screw itself.
>One of the legitimate purposes of government (and
>trade unionism) is defending the safety of industrial workers who
>aren't otherwise in a position to make their working practices safe.
Let's at least have some legitimate need for the "safety" concrned. Shortening
arbors so stacked dados can't be used is asinine because it forces people into
alternative methods (wobble dado, router dado) that may, or may not, be as
safe. Next time around, they'll be saying you can't use those because they're
unsafe, leaving only hand-plowed dados.
Charlie Self
Word Worker
Charles Self
>Apparently you missed the trial balloon OSHA floated about regulating
>home hobby shops.
We didn't miss it, Pat, but think of the fun you could have with it. Unless
there were a whole bunch of back-up laws and regs passed, you could toss the
inspector down, or up, a flight of your shop stairs for trespass.
Charlie Self
Word Worker
Pat Daniels
has a silver lining. <G>
Pat
Pat Daniels
Mundt) wrote:
>
> When I need really precise dadoes, I usually use the router
>anyway....*smile*
> Regards
> Dave Mundt
>
I find it very difficult to fine tune the width of a routed dado to
compensate for variation plywood thichness. Perhaps you'd be kind
enough to send me some of your router bit shims, the store around here
no longer carry them. <G>
Pat
Andy Dingley
>Apparently you missed the trial balloon OSHA floated about regulating
>home hobby shops.
No, I live in one of the over-regulated socialist police states of
Europe, where we don't have the hassles you guys in the Land of the
Free have to deal with.
We're allowed nuclear bunkers for mailboxes too.
Andy Dingley
>Love this depiction of the Scrooge cabinetmaking industry. I'm sure a couple
>friends who own and run cabinet shops will, too.
It's not unrepresentative of some parts of the UK. Not so much
cabinetmaking, but the replacement windowframe trade has a very poor
reputation for safety; especially accidents with big shapers.
One of the strongest trade union areas in the UK was that of dock
workers. Thatcher's government destroyed this; leading to actions
like the big Merseyside lockout and the growth of unregulated ports.
The current cause celebre is that of a student with a vacation job who
didn't survive his first day at work -- a time-saving shortcut led to
a crane with a grab bucket being used instead of a hook, and he was
caught by it in the confines of a ship's hold. Classic Victorian
industrial accident -- we're supposed to be past those by now.
>>One of the legitimate purposes of government (and
>>trade unionism) is defending the safety of industrial workers who
>>aren't otherwise in a position to make their working practices safe.
>
>Let's at least have some legitimate need for the "safety" concrned.
Like I said, I've never used a stacked dado. OTOH, I think it _is_
government's job to prevent "sources of harm" where "harm" has some
reasonable basis.
>Next time around, they'll be saying you can't use those because they're
>unsafe, leaving only hand-plowed dados.
That might get some support in this newsgroup 8-)
Joe Lane
Andy Dingley <din...@codesmiths.com> wrote in message
news:9vgtgsk7s6jsllvj9...@4ax.com...
> charl...@aol.com (Charles Self) a écrit :
>
> >Love this depiction of the Scrooge cabinetmaking industry. I'm sure a
couple
> >friends who own and run cabinet shops will, too.
>
> It's not unrepresentative of some parts of the UK. Not so much
> cabinetmaking, but the replacement windowframe trade has a very poor
> reputation for safety; especially accidents with big shapers.
>
> One of the strongest trade union areas in the UK was that of dock
> workers. Thatcher's government destroyed this; leading to actions
> like the big Merseyside lockout and the growth of unregulated ports.
> The current cause celebre is that of a student with a vacation job who
> didn't survive his first day at work -- a time-saving shortcut led to
> a crane with a grab bucket being used instead of a hook, and he was
> caught by it in the confines of a ship's hold. Classic Victorian
> industrial accident -- we're supposed to be past those by now.
>
> >>One of the legitimate purposes of government (and
> >>trade unionism) is defending the safety of industrial workers who
> >>aren't otherwise in a position to make their working practices safe.
> >
> >Let's at least have some legitimate need for the "safety" concrned.
>
> Like I said, I've never used a stacked dado.
In all probability neither have the legislatures who banned
stacked dados.
Therefore both you and they are unqualified to make a
statement as to whether they are "safe or unsafe".
Charles Self
>Not so much
>cabinetmaking, but the replacement windowframe trade has a very poor
>reputation for safety; especially accidents with big shapers.
How does this relate to table saw arbors? The shaper is a very dangerous tool,
no matter its size. A lack of attention can create all sorts of problems with
any tool. How do you legislate attention?
>One of the strongest trade union areas in the UK was that of dock
>workers. Thatcher's government destroyed this; leading to actions
>like the big Merseyside lockout and the growth of unregulated ports.
>The current cause celebre is that of a student with a vacation job who
>didn't survive his first day at work -- a time-saving shortcut led to
>a crane with a grab bucket being used instead of a hook, and he was
>caught by it in the confines of a ship's hold. Classic Victorian
>industrial accident -- we're supposed to be past those by now.
>
Not being a dock walloper, I don't get it. How did the bucket grab him? Were
no safety signals at all set up? Seems to me that you've got all kinds of
attention lapses that mean an accident that shouldn't have happened did.
Obviously, a hook floating around loose would only have knocked his head off.
>Like I said, I've never used a stacked dado. OTOH, I think it _is_
>government's job to prevent "sources of harm" where "harm" has some
>reasonable basis.
>
But who determines the reasonable basis? Government? In this country, OSHA?
They often do in commercial shops. Some of the stuff recommended is totally
asinine, and, from what I read, the asininities outnumber the good ideas about
25 to 1.
>>Next time around, they'll be saying you can't use those because they're
>>unsafe, leaving only hand-plowed dados.
>
>That might get some support in this newsgroup 8-)
>
A great idea from time to time. But not something everyone is up for doing.
Charlie Self
Word Worker
Kim Whitmyre
> They often do in commercial shops. Some of the stuff recommended is totally
> asinine, and, from what I read, the asininities outnumber the good ideas about
> 25 to 1.
>
But Charlie, come budget request time, they got to look like they been
doing something. . .
Kim
Charles Self
>ome of the stuff recommended is totally
>> asinine, and, from what I read, the asininities outnumber the good ideas
>about
>> 25 to 1.
>>
>
>But Charlie, come budget request time, they got to look like they been
>doing something. . .
Not for me, they don't. Reminds me of the military where aircraft fuel
conservation was the order of the day for 2 months and 3 weeks. The last week
in the quarter, everyone realized that the next quarter would see a smaller
allotment unless we used all we haand coming, so it was extra hours--usually
many extra hours--for everyone, from us maintenance pogues to the pilots. Not
a good time to accompany the pilots on joy rides, though it sure did give some
of the stress and lack of rest features of combat flying.
Charlie Self
Word Worker
Dave Mundt
>Andy Dingley writes:
>
*snip*
>
>>>Next time around, they'll be saying you can't use those because they're
>>>unsafe, leaving only hand-plowed dados.
>>
>>That might get some support in this newsgroup 8-)
And, alas, most folks will want those of us that DO this sort of
thing to work for the $0.50/week that were typical wages when this
sort of thing was the norm (and I DONT mean Abram *smile*)
>>
>
>A great idea from time to time. But not something everyone is up for doing.
>
>Charlie Self
>Word Worker
In any case, although I had sworn to walk away from this thread,
I, like an addict can't seem to do it.
It seems to me that, to a certain extent, the argument is between
folks that have NOT used a stack dado blade (who want to ban it as
"too dangerous" to use) and those who HAVE used the blade, and, argue
that, while dangerous, it is still a useful tool that CAN be used
safely.
I wonder...what is the ACTUAL hazard here? Does anyone have any
statistics on how many dado blades (stack and otherwise) are in use,
and, what percentage of these are involved in serious injury? Or is
this an argument based simply on the few, REALLY GORY pictures that
show up now and again of what happens when some hapless individual
manages to tangle with them? If these statistics were available,
would they show that dado heads are more dangrous than cars? or vice
versa?
I, for one, have been using dado blades (and molding heads) on
table saws of varying ability since I was 12 (although DAD really
would have preferred I not do it before 15). I am 45 now, and, have
all my fingers still...MOSTLY through continual respect of the dangers
of woodworking, by taking time to work safely, and, to be honest, dumb
luck and the Hand of God...but...mostly the first two. How about the
REST of you? We have heard from several folks that have burred off
parts of their bodies. how many of us have NEVER done that?
Just a thought
Dave Mundt
Dave Mundt
HAW! So THAT is my problem! I so rarely USE plywood I was
not really aware that the scum-bag manufacturers had shrunk the size
again. Sigh.
However, when I DO need to adjust the width of the dado, I tend to
cut the first cut slightly small, then, loosen and slide the straight
edge I am running against OVER just a tad, then make a second pass.
Alternatively, if I am doing a fair number of identical dadoes, I
will build a parallel sided jig that clamps on the workpiece. I can
then simply run the router down each side of the trough so formed,
and...POOF...an accurately fitting dado.
Regards
Dave Mundt
plda...@erols.com (Pat Daniels) wrote:
Remove the "REMOVE_THIS_" from my email address to get to me...
Kirby Gehman
"Daniel Willard" <dwi...@swcp.com> wrote:
>we do like the option of doing what we want when we please to do it.
I think what Mr. Shepard's trying to say is that American CAN'T do what
you want when you want, because there are four other Yahoo 'mer-kuns
that are going to sue you if you do.
The anarchy of the American legal system is the result of complete
freedom. The comparative calmness of the British/European legal system
is the result of governmental control of individual's rights. They
have willingly traded the right to have the government take away dado
blades for the right not to be sued for $8,400,000 for blinking at
someone.
He's right. You can not argue one better than the other, they're
simply different. Well, actually you can argue, and we are, but
really, you shouldn't. :-)
.02
--Kirby
Sent via Deja.com http://www.deja.com/
Before you buy.
Jeff Gorman
Joe Lane <jl...@wcl.on.ca> wrote
> How many laws are we willing to pass to protect us from ourselves.
>
> This is absolute rubbish. Of coarse you are going to get injured
> if you put your hand in the saw or the planer or the fan belt
> of your automobile. You cannot legislate common sense and
> to penalize those who use common sense because some do not
> is ridiculous.
I think that Joe is missing the point.
One of the principal purposes of machine safety legislation of is to
safeguard employees from unscrupulous and/or irresponsible (or just plain
ignorant) employers.
Jeff
--
Jeff Gorman, West Yorkshire, UK
Je...@millard.demon.co.uk
www.millard.demon.co.uk/Index.htm
Charles Self
>So THAT is my problem! I so rarely USE plywood I was
>not really aware that the scum-bag manufacturers had shrunk the size
>again. Sigh.
> However, when I DO need to adjust the width of the dado, I tend to
>cut the first cut slightly small, then, loosen and slide the straight
>edge I am running against OVER just a tad, then make a second pass.
> Alternatively, if I am doing a fair number of identical dadoes, I
>will build a parallel sided jig that clamps on the workpiece. I can
>then simply run the router down each side of the trough so formed,
>and...POOF...an accurately fitting dado.
When I use a router for dados in plywood, I use one of the undersized bits made
by several companies, including Jesada and CMT.
Charlie Self
Word Worker
Charles Self
>One of the principal purposes of machine safety legislation of is to
>safeguard employees from unscrupulous and/or irresponsible (or just plain
>ignorant) employers.
By legislating out of an existence a useful accessory that could easily be made
safer with gov't required training, or better guards?
Charlie Self
Word Worker
Pat Daniels
bias against entrepreneurial activity which typifies socialistic
European countries. If they're happy with it, good for them. I find
this passion for being regulated incomprehensible but different modes
for different toads, I say.
Pat
On Tue, 2 May 2000 20:21:15 +0100, "Jeff Gorman"
<Je...@millard.demon.co.uk> wrote:
>One of the principal purposes of machine safety legislation of is to
>safeguard employees from unscrupulous and/or irresponsible (or just plain
>ignorant) employers.
>
>Jeff
>
>
>
>
steve robinson
i own a liitle joinery business and i need a logging business to keep the
paper mill going to feed the printer to supply the government with the
paper work to be sent to me in triplicate including the error notices and
the apologies for sending the wrong forms in the first place
to tell me that i need to fill in the new set of forms to cover me for the
new regulations when we have to deal with the euro which we will accept
after the referendum which we will not get until the government have
manipulated the economy so that they get what theyt want
its called the european gravy train
"Pat Daniels" <plda...@erols.com> wrote in message
news:390f44b...@news.erols.com...
Pat Daniels
Mundt) wrote:
> Greetings and Salutations....
> HAW! So THAT is my problem! I so rarely USE plywood I was
>not really aware that the scum-bag manufacturers had shrunk the size
>again. Sigh.
>However, when I DO need to adjust the width of the dado...
Well not all of us are able to operate in the rarified atmosphere of
all solid hardwoods; we're obliged to wallow in the swamp of sheet
goods in an effort to earn our daily crust. <G> In any case the
problem is not that plywood thickness has decreased but that it is
variable. Often from sheet to sheet in the same hack of material.
The variance in minute, only a few thousands, but enough to be a
problem if your striving for a nice press (as opposed to flop or
hammer) fit.
All this said I usually cut my dadoes with plywood bits in the ol'
screamer. I've used both of the techniques you describe in the past
though now I tend to use epoxy to gap fill the loose ones and a
straight edge and rabbet plane on the shelves for the overly tight
ones. No matter how you deal with it, it's a pain in the neck. Just
as soon as I come up with $25,000, I'm replacing my Delta CS with a
Unisaw and a Excaliber sliding table ($2,500 for the equipment,
$22,500 for the shop large enough to put it in) Then the ply bits are
going in the trash.
Pat
Pat Daniels
wrote:
>>I think what Mr. Shepard's trying to say is that American CAN'T do what
>you want when you want, because there are four other Yahoo 'mer-kuns
>that are going to sue you if you do.
I believe there is some validity to this view. In one case, the
people's freedom of action is constrained by the Nanny State; in the
other, by a predatory tort law system gone totally insane. Probably
not a lot to choose between the two as they currently exist.
I do feel that the main thing in favor of the American system is that
in conceptual terms, it's easier to fix - tort reform and problem
solved. Not that it will happen without a struggle:, the financial
self interest on the legal profession and those who feel corporate
America best serves society as a hunting preserve for the stupid and
careless will see to that.
One last point:
>The anarchy of the American legal system is the result of complete
>freedom.
With several hundred thousand laws on the books and something on the
order of a hundred feet per year on new and modified regulatory agency
regulation, I doubt that there are too many Americans who feel
themselves to be completely free.
Now you'll have to excuse me, I'm off to the Mailbox thread <G>
Pat
David Shepherd
>Dave,
>You really don't get it do you. The real difference between the two countries
>is that while we might possibly have a "Big Brother state", you guys definitely
>have a "nanny state"!!! You'll always be "nannys"
No, it's you who don't get it. If we didn't elect a government to,
amonget other things, set certain minimum safety standards then no end
of dangerous things would be on sale as manufacturers sought to
undercut each other. I'm not in a position to test whether the arbour
on a tablesaw is strong enough that it won't snap in use and send a
high speed spinning bade flying through the air. We elect a government
to spend part of our taxes to pay for the appropriate authorities to
test them and make sure that dangerous machines are not on sale here.
Sometimes they may go over the top (the stacked dado blade may well be
an example, I'm not argueing against that), but personally I'd rather
have it that way than the other way around.
If you prefer to have your system, that's fine by me. If we have a
Nanny State it's because that's what we elect our government and pay
for them to do. Each to their own.
Dave
*********************
David Shepherd
a.guz...@virgin.net
David Shepherd
>
>I wasn't interested in whatever cultural differences there may be
>between the US and the UK, I was just wanting to make sure that we do
>everything we can to prevent this type of thing from happening here.
That's fine, and far be it for me to say what you should or shouldn't
do in your country - that's none of my business.
>
>And I think David, if you had ever used a stacked dado head you would
>understand how ridiculous a ban on such a useful device like this
>would be.
That may well be so - I'm not denying that.
>To try to justify this ban with whatever problems may have
>resulted from the deregulation of the animal feed industry is equally
>ridiculous.
I agree. Which is why I didn't attempt to do so.
I wasn't trying to justify this particular ban _ I clearly
acknowledged that the ban might be over the top. As I said, I'm not
qualified to say. I was trying to explain why I and many others are in
favour of Government regulation on such things. That's not to say the
government always get it right, but I'd rather they err on the side of
over-caution than the other way around. Deregulation allowed companies
to put profit above safety so they turned cattle into carnivores and
fed them sheep brains. Hence BSE. There are many examples of how
companies will go for the lowest safety option they can get away with
in order to cut costs. That's why I believe our approach is right. For
us.
David Shepherd
wrote:
>
>Bzzzt! Sorry, but thanks for playing. Guns are meant (despite
>Hollyweird's
>only depictions of guns) for
> 1. Serving as a ranged weapon for such things as rattlesnakes (I have a
>4
>year old and am not going to take any chances with a "live and let live"
>philosophy).
>
> 2. Target shooting.
>
> 3. Hunting and pest control.
>
> 4. Self-defense. It would take local law enforcement a minimum of 30
>minutes
>to reach my home in an emergency. I would really prefer to be reporting to
>the
>police what happened when they show up rather than having them report
>about what happened to me after they got here.
Sorry, I was only guessing at what he might sayy. I'm not arguing with
the points you make. The gun situation is different in the US and the
uk because we are coming from different situations. Guns are widely
available in the US and am I right in thinking there is a clause in
your constitution which gives every citizen the right to bear arms? In
the UK guns are not widely available, only under licence fortarget
shooting and hunting, and illegally by a small number of criminals. 1.
is not applicable here and 4 is actually the subject of much debate
here, locally at least since a local farmer has just got life for
shooting a 16 year old burglar in the back with an illegally held
shotgun.