Your Opinion? Kreg Pocket Screw Jig Or Biscuit Joiner??
N
somewhat new woodworker, with only a few projects under my belt.
I am ready to construct the face-frames for my bookcases. When
joining the pieces, I am going to use either a Kreg Jig, or a biscuit
joiner. (I have neither at the moment). What is the best course of
action here? Money really isn't a factor in the decision of what tool
to buy - I just want to get the best one for the job. Do you have any
preference on what tool to use for this job?
Thanks!
Andrew
skip tracer1
different applications. I have made many projects where I use both . I would
say that most cabinetmakers would have both tools or similar. skip.
"N" <ff> wrote in message news:d13ccuk8p30b6cau9...@4ax.com...
Bannerstone
to be the better way to attach the frame to the carcasses. You can do it with
neither.
David
In article <d13ccuk8p30b6cau9...@4ax.com>, N says...
DJ Delorie
Not mortise and tenons for the face frame? That only requires a
router, and is much stronger.
Leon
recommend pocket hole screws and glue. VERY strong and fast. Biscuits when
appearance will be a factor.
Robert B.
go with the biscuits. Pocket holes (they're just modified steel dowels) may
be strong are really ugly joints.
N <ff> wrote in message news:d13ccuk8p30b6cau9...@4ax.com...
elmwood
You'll find this true in the majority of cabinet shops. There fast and
strong. Biscuits can align your face frames but don't pull the rails and
stiles together. You can also use pocket screw to attach your face frame
on. This would only be if the sides are not ever going to be seen.
Biscuits will also align the frames to the cases very nicely.
Eric Morehouse
ELM Woodworks
Randall Thomas
system call the invis. It's threaded inserts with little induction motors
built into them and a special magnetic field generator to drive the motor,
which it linked to a screw, in one half that mates to a thread in the
other half and lock the joint together.
I saw it demonstrated at the grand opening of a new woodworking tool store
here in Vegas, last weekend, and think it is the neatest thing I've seen
in years, and like all the Lamelo line cool as hell, superbly engineered,
and as expensive as a ticket out of hell.
Any way here's a link. http://www.csaw.com/invismain.html
On the serious side, I have used a combination of both pocket holes, and
biscuits, on face frames, because they do different things. I think of
Pocket holes, as quick clamps, that allow the clamping of glued joints
with out the bother of cumbersome clamps, and the necessity to remove them
later. Biscuits, are alignment devices, and help get things lined up.
If I were deciding which tool to buy first, it would be the Kregg pocket
hole jig
Wayne Cannon
> ...
> I am ready to construct the face-frames for my bookcases. When
> joining the pieces, I am going to use either a Kreg Jig, or a biscuit
> joiner. (I have neither at the moment). What is the best course of
> action here? ...
>
> Thanks!
> Andrew
For face frames, I would opt for the pocket screws.
The biscuits will give you a stronger joint and the fasteners will be
invisible. However, for face frames, you don't need a lot of strength and the
backside isn't visible.
The pocket screws work very nicely for face frames. They're plenty strong for
the application, and you don't need to clamp them and wait while the glue dries.
--Wayne
(Change "nospam" to "wcannon" for e-mail)
Doug Stowe
wrote:
My preference would be the biscuit joiner. The Kreg Jig is a cool tool
that can make adequate face frames quickly and without needing clamps.
But in my experience, screws really don't give the strength that you
will get with biscuits. You can buy a Freud JS-100 for about the same
price as a Kreg jig and you'll find many more uses for it, like aligning
boards for gluing panels, etc. And then you'll have an excuse to buy
more clamps.
--
Doug Stowe
Author of "Creating Beautiful Boxes with Inlay Techinques"
"Simply Beautiful Boxes" and "Making Elegant Custom Tables"
Contributing Editor-Woodwork, A magazine for All Woodworkers
website: http://www.dougstowe.com
Dave Erickson
for occasional face frames. The kind that centers automatically. You line up
both pieces, draw lines where the dowels will go, align the jig on the mark,
drill and go. Works swell. Buy the fluted dowels to give the glue somewhere
to go. Great for other joinery too.
Dave Erickson
"N" <ff> wrote in message news:d13ccuk8p30b6cau9...@4ax.com...
Slowhand
SH
N wrote in message ...
Phisherman
I used biscuits to attach my face frames, then held them in place for
a couple hours using clamps. Probably easier than pocket screws if
you got the clamps. I don't own a Kreg jig (yet).
Mike G
I really see little value in the argument as too any strength the biscuits
may add to a face frame. The strength of joint is not a major issue for a
face frame.
Yes, the face frame adds some rigidity to the carcass but the major factor
is the back of the case not the face frame.
A thought
--
Mike Glennon
Heirloom Woods
www.heirloom-woods.net
mi...@heirloom-woods.net
"N" <ff> wrote in message news:d13ccuk8p30b6cau9...@4ax.com...
Mike
tag just for the "impress your friends factor" alone! If it actually
worked that would just be a bonus. To bad they didn't list the price
for the screws.
I will be watching Norm closely. He is sure to try a gadget like
this!
Randall Thomas <rthom...@worldnet.att.net> wrote in message news:<3CC657D9...@worldnet.att.net>...
Denis Marier
furniture making.
When to use what will come with experience, reliability, type of wood, speed
and desire look.
For decades I have used No.10 and 12 taper wood plugs.
Drilling and countersink with No. 10 or 12 drill. Then making the taper
wood plugs with matching pattern look 80% invisible to the naked eyes. The
use of straight wood plug is too conspicuous. At time I use square wood
plug with end grain. I also use biscuits a lot in joining boards together.
I am planing on experimenting with pocket holes mainly in attaching the top
of dinning table.
The purchase cost of a good jig equipped with toggle clamp in Canada is
about $252.00 CAD. Low end drill jig can be had for $12.95 CAD + the step
drill at $12.00 CAD.
Kreg's jig is the best one I have seen so far. However its retail price is
on the high side.
I estimate the manufacturing costs to be approx. (+ - 15%) as follows:
toggle clamp $14.00, aluminum angle $15.00, drill bushings $8.00, machining
and assembly $15.00 = About $52.00 if made in the US. This leaves $200.00
for adm, profit and handling. An aluminum die cast use in mass production
would be a fraction of the $52.00 cost. Using Oak, (or aluminum angle)
toggle clamp and drill bushings can one be home made?
"Slowhand" <I'm...@work.com> wrote in message
news:ucdh5ls...@corp.supernews.com...
Mike Dembroge
Isn't it one of the great misconceptions (mostly perpetuated by his
masterness: Norm) that biscuits add strength? Supposedly, a couple of years
ago, OSHA did a study that proved that biscuits add strength to only the
weakest of joints, i.e. mitre. Alignment is about their only benefit. Don't
know where the study is, nor have I ever seen it first-hand, but lots of
folks made reference to it a while back.
Mike Dembroge
"Wayne Cannon" <nos...@sonic.net> wrote in message
news:3CC66B4D...@sonic.net...
Doug Stowe
Dembroge" <mike_d...@pacbell.net> wrote:
> Biscuits stronger than screws? Are you sure?
>
> Isn't it one of the great misconceptions (mostly perpetuated by his
> masterness: Norm) that biscuits add strength? Supposedly, a couple of
> years
> ago, OSHA did a study that proved that biscuits add strength to only the
> weakest of joints, i.e. mitre. Alignment is about their only benefit.
> Don't
> know where the study is, nor have I ever seen it first-hand, but lots of
> folks made reference to it a while back.
>
> Mike Dembroge
Mike, I don't know about a OSHA study, but FineWoodworking did one about
a year ago in which biscuits did OK. Only about half as strong as a
traditional mortise and tenon joint, but to say its only benefit is
alignment is to miss the point of the article. If you want to read it,
the article is in the April, 2001 issue. Too bad they didn't test
pocket hole screws as well.
Wayne Cannon
> Biscuits stronger than screws? Are you sure?
> ...
About a year ago, one of the woodworking rags (American Woodworker, I
believe) did some instrumented strength tests to failure of verious
joint types. The screwed joint was the weakest of all joints, and by a
significant margin. Dowels were next, followed by biscuits, and
finally, mortise and tenon was the strongest. Actually, biscuits were
very close to mortise and tenon. I think it was a double biscuit joint.
Fine Woodworking did a similar test series, but with more variations
and fewer different joint types. FWW didn't test screwed joints. FWW
definitely used a double biscuit joint, and it withstood about half the
force of the mortise and tenon.
I'll look for the first reference.
As I said, however, face frames don't require much strength, just a nice
tight joint. I think the pocket screwed joints have the edge because
they pull the joint up nice and tight without clamps, and you don't have
to wait for the glue to dry.
--Wayne
(replace the nospam with wcannon for e-mail)
Bob G.
much prefer pocket screw construction...just a lot faster and a lot less
fuss....and they produce strong joints...
You must remember that these are UGLY and can only be used when they can
not be seeen...but that is rarely a problem...
I would say that I use pocket screw construction 10 to 1 over biscuits
and truth be known I still use dowels over biscuits in most table top
glue ups also... (hey I am an old retired fart who likes "new toys" but
maybe I am stuck in my ways...)
Just my opinion...
Karen Nakamura
Somewhere in their promotional material, Kreg says that pocket hole
joinery is stronger than biscuits and dowels. I tried searching their
web site, but it's not on there.
I know that I use my Kreg $30 jig more than my $100 biscuit cutter. It's
just darn faster. No time wasted in glue-ups and clamps.
Although I'm getting tired of sanding the plugs flush. But I think they
look just great as a design element.
Karen
Charlie Spitzer
"Karen Nakamura" <ma...@gpsy.invalid> wrote in message
news:mail-21E9AD.1...@c-66-41-72-25.mn.client2.attbi.com...
you can buy the plugs already cut off even.
http://store.yahoo.com/squaredrive/kr-9125.html for example.
regards,
charlie
cave creek, az
Denis Marier
I use a Japanese flush saw designed for that purpose and I finish it off
with a good hand block plane. The block plane's iron has to be sharp and
well adjusted. Years ago I used a wood chisel to cut the plugs: it did not
work well, then I would have to finish with the belt sander. Now when
making the plugs I use a drill press with low speed and I do not press down
too much. Over the year I have observed that fresh cut plugs gives a much
better look and are less visible.
"Charlie Spitzer" <charlie...@nospam.stratus.com> wrote in message
news:aaa3qg$7jp$1...@transfer.stratus.com...
Randall Thomas
the auspices of any OSHA (Occupational Safety and Health Administration) agency,
federal or state. Army Corps of Engineers, Naval Engineering Center, the FHA,
maybe, but not OSHA.
Mike Dembroge
original question, but I interpreted that article (FWW #148 - Thanks Doug) a
little differently, and now I see why. There's no baseline from which to
compare. It doesn't say if the biscuit adds any strength or not, and maybe
that's not the article's intent. It's pretty easy, reasonable and expected
to think that a M&T joint will be considerably stronger than a biscuit.
You'd be hard-pressed to find anyone to argue the contrary. However, is the
biscuit any stronger than a simple butt joint? The test doesn't really say.
It just compares the biscuit to a M&T, and a double biscuit at that.
I really think that the only way to know for sure is to start with a simple
butt joint, and work up through all the various joints. This way, the reader
would know what's being added. Suppose, for the sake of discussion, that
biscuits weaken the joint (just for discussion). The data, results and
conclusions of this test could be the same and the reader would have no idea
that biscuits are any worse than a simple butt joint. Make sense?
That said, I agree whole heartedly that biscuits are plenty for a face
frame. To add some input into the original question, I'm a weekend
warrior/hobbyist, so using pocket screws has never interested me. I'd
rather spend the time practicing and learning to do M&T joints, so if
there's a chance to implement them, I will do so in a heartbeat. Dovetails
too.
However, I'm currently building some shelf units for neighbors' work van. I
was concerned that after time and lots of bumps and bounces, that the
shelves would start to come apart. I decided to notch all the posts for the
cross-members of the shelves, and use pocket screws AND glue to hold them.
I like the idea of a mechanical fastener in this situation. Don't have to
be pretty because this is a work van, so he bought me a Kreg Jig for the job
and I've been using it over the last couple of weekends.
If I were a professional who had to put things together in order to feed my
family and make a living, I'd probably be more apt to use pocket screws, but
since I'm a hobbyist who needs the practice, I think I'll keep practicing
M&T whenever I can.
Mike Dembroge
"Mike Dembroge" <mike_d...@pacbell.net> wrote in message
news:MSJx8.1168$PD.410...@newssvr13.news.prodigy.com...
jerry edwards
>I am builing my first set of built-in bookcases for my house. I am
>somewhat new woodworker, with only a few projects under my belt.
imho:
i make the joint that i can touch and show off with pride, biscuits
or m&t. there is no high speed production at my house. i only make
things that show my best effort, heck that's why i'm in the garage. i
sure wouldn't want my dad, an old m&t'r, to examine my work and find
those ugly gashes from the kreg. i try and build with quality wood
joinery and glue only because that makes me feel good about my work
and it also is a braggin rite 'no metal in this cabinet'. it takes
looooonger but i do it for the karma. if i wanted kreg joint mdf
stuff i'd just buy it at ikea.
no offense to you production guys, i understand you've got to make a
buck. i do it for different reasons.
jerry
Karen Nakamura
Yeah, I buy those but they still don't lie absolutely flush and you have
to sand the last 1/32" flush. Since my holes are usually in inside
corners, that's a bit of a pain.. :(
Denis Marier
Maybe there is a merit in doing so. However, when plugs are made in
advance, depending on the type of wood you may encounter oxidation around
the circumference which will increase the visibility.
I do not have to sand down the last 1/32" flush. As stated I use a flush
saw and a block plane to remove the marks made by the thin saw which is
much less than 1/64". I have to be more careful with soft wood like pine
and mahogany. I always test the block plane adjustments on a piece of scrap
wood before.
The best results obtained where with the same cut out wood left over the
same board. Since I have started to use the taper plug cutter I am very
reluctant to go back to straight plug cutter.
"Karen Nakamura" <ma...@gpsy.invalid> wrote in message
news:mail-51D4BC.0...@c-66-41-72-25.mn.client2.attbi.com...
Wayne Cannon
> Biscuits stronger than screws? Are you sure?
>
> Isn't it one of the great misconceptions (mostly perpetuated by his
> masterness: Norm) that biscuits add strength? Supposedly, a couple of years
> ago, OSHA did a study that proved that biscuits add strength to only the
> weakest of joints, i.e. mitre. Alignment is about their only benefit. Don't
> know where the study is, nor have I ever seen it first-hand, but lots of
> folks made reference to it a while back.
>
> Mike Dembroge
I can understand the study results for edge-glued stock.
Biscuits (and other fasteners) add to the strength of the joint when it
involves end grain (as with a face frame). When glueing edge-to-edge, as in a
table top or glued up panel, a WELL-EXECUTED glue joint is stronger than the
wood and devices like biscuits, pocket screws, etc., only serve for alignment,
to simplify setup, and/or ease clamping requirements.
Wayne Cannon
> Somewhere in their promotional material, Kreg says that pocket hole
> joinery is stronger than biscuits and dowels. ...
>
> Karen
I'm still looking for that article on joint construction. It came out pretty
close in time to the FWW article, but I haven't been able to find it. I'll be
sure to post it when I find it, and I'll find it if I have to read every table
of contents again.
It compared face-frame or leg-and-skirt type glued joints involving end grain
of mortise & tenon, loose tenon, double biscuit, double dowel, and two-screw
construction. Strength-wise, they were in the above order, strongest to
weakest, with the loose tenon very close to the traditional mortise & tenon.
ROunded edges on the loose tenon helped the strength.
Phillip Hansen
>
> I'm still looking for that article on joint construction.
That has a comparison.
--
Phillip Hansen
skil...@not.here.futurenet.co.za
Joel Jacobson
> ....... a couple of years ago, OSHA did a study that
proved that biscuits ......... Don't know where the study
is, nor have I ever seen it first-hand, but lots of folks
made reference to it a while back.
That isn't what OSHA does --- the story is bogus.
Joel Jacobson
jerry edwards
popular woodworking june 2001 table snip (didn't say what glue nor
wood directions)
joint size gap press lbs fail lbs
3 bisk #20 1700 3000
2 bisk #20 1700 2800
lose ten 1/2x3x5 1200 2700
m&t 1/2x21/2x21/2 1200 2700
2 dowl 1/2x59/16 1200 1800
t&g 1/2x5/8 na 1300
2 lags 1/4x13/4 na 300
see ya at the pomona show. hoping for jig pieces, sand disk,
fostners and other small rockler type stuff. i may report my 2 cents
if impressed strongly one way or the other. look for the wheelchair.
that be me.
jerry
On Tue, 30 Apr 2002 21:11:36 GMT, Wayne Cannon <nos...@sonic.net>
wrotd:
Wayne Cannon
> popular woodworking june 2001 table snip ...
> joint size gap press lbs fail lbs
> 3 bisk #20 1700 3000
> 2 bisk #20 1700 2800
> lose ten 1/2x3x5 1200 2700
> m&t 1/2x21/2x21/2 1200 2700
> 2 dowl 1/2x59/16 1200 1800
> t&g 1/2x5/8 na 1300
> 2 lags 1/4x13/4 na 300
> ...
> jerry
>
> On Tue, 30 Apr 2002 21:11:36 GMT, Wayne Cannon <nos...@sonic.net> wrote:
>>I'm still looking for that article on joint construction. ...
Jerry and Phil,
That sounds like the article. I read Popular Woodworking frequently, but don't
subscribe and don't keep gtheir back issues, which would explain why I couldn't
find the article!
The numbers don't look as I recall them, however, since the table you posted
looks like the biscuit joints were stronger than the mortise and tenon joints.
I recalled the mortise and tenon, both traditional and loose tenon to be
stronger than any of the biscuit joints.
The wood and end grain into an edge grain, as with a face frame or table/chair
skirt-to-leg.
Thanks to you both.
Bibo
and great price (for them).
I saw this machine, looks great, works great, like magic. The only bad
thing: if you use it in wood you won't SEE it work...
Alexander
"Mike" <mp_s...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:fb696175.02042...@posting.google.com...
Greg Galloway
Don't forget that pocket holes are stronger than simple screwed butt
joints.
With a simple butt joint, the threads of the screws typically anchor
into the end grain of the wood where it is the weakest. The
traditional approach to strengthen these joints is to insert a
hardwood dowel perpendicular to the screw so that the threads will
bite into the edge grain of the dowel instead.
With pocket holes the screw goes in the opposite direction. The
threads anchor into the edge grain of the board. On a typical face
frame, a pocket hole is invisible while a screwed butt joint is not.
My $59 Kreg Pocket Rocket + $5 box of 100 screws is half or a third of
the cost of a Freud or Dewalt plate joiner.
Greg