Google Groups no longer supports new Usenet posts or subscriptions. Historical content remains viewable.
Dismiss
Hey Karl, and any other SPAX users
158 views
Skip to first unread message
nailsh...@aol.com
Aug 21, 2015, 7:08:28 PM8/21/15
to
Karl, after we talked about different types of fasteners a while back, I decided to give SPAX a try. You're right... I like them! They are a graded fastener, the have a thinner body than the screws I was using, and they are easier to drive.
However...
I like the Torx drive, but the driver they supply seems soft. The screw heads don't seem too deep, so you have to be at 90 degrees to have solid, no slip drive. I am used to the hundreds of thousands of Phillips and square drive screws I have driven, and find the fact I have to be right on top of the screw to drive it annoying as hell. In a tight space with a long extension to reach, I can usually drive a Phillips head about 15 degrees of so off parallel from the head, not so with the SPAX screws and the supplied bit. Since I do a lot of maintenance and repairs, this is pretty important to me.
It was highlighted last week when I had the kick off a long bath vanity that was caulked/marble topped/mirrored into place and I couldn't get to the carcass base runners any other way than laying on my stomach and running my impact driver with a long extension with a screw on it as far back as I could reach. When the screw would bite and find its way into the wood, it would change the drive angle and the bit would slip from the screw. After goofing with it (laying on my stomach getting my arms torn up by the tack strip) for about 30 minutes I gave up and got my Phillips screws out and finished the job quickly.
This isn't the first time I have had drive problems with the screws, so I am wondering what the problem might be. When I am over the screw, they drive very well and their aggressive threads make it quick. I like they fact that hey are graded for use, and the others I use aren't.
So is it the bit, the screws, or both? Or do I need to confine my use of these to more perfect conditions?
Next, how water/moisture resistant are these screws? I am getting ready to install a lot of grab bars in a house, and a few will be in the house bathrooms. I dont' want to see the bars outside the shower/bath rust, so I am wary. I would like to have a screw that I didn't have to drill a pilot hole to install, but I would like to have rust resistance even more.
Any thoughts would certainly be appreciated!
Robert
However...
I like the Torx drive, but the driver they supply seems soft. The screw heads don't seem too deep, so you have to be at 90 degrees to have solid, no slip drive. I am used to the hundreds of thousands of Phillips and square drive screws I have driven, and find the fact I have to be right on top of the screw to drive it annoying as hell. In a tight space with a long extension to reach, I can usually drive a Phillips head about 15 degrees of so off parallel from the head, not so with the SPAX screws and the supplied bit. Since I do a lot of maintenance and repairs, this is pretty important to me.
It was highlighted last week when I had the kick off a long bath vanity that was caulked/marble topped/mirrored into place and I couldn't get to the carcass base runners any other way than laying on my stomach and running my impact driver with a long extension with a screw on it as far back as I could reach. When the screw would bite and find its way into the wood, it would change the drive angle and the bit would slip from the screw. After goofing with it (laying on my stomach getting my arms torn up by the tack strip) for about 30 minutes I gave up and got my Phillips screws out and finished the job quickly.
This isn't the first time I have had drive problems with the screws, so I am wondering what the problem might be. When I am over the screw, they drive very well and their aggressive threads make it quick. I like they fact that hey are graded for use, and the others I use aren't.
So is it the bit, the screws, or both? Or do I need to confine my use of these to more perfect conditions?
Next, how water/moisture resistant are these screws? I am getting ready to install a lot of grab bars in a house, and a few will be in the house bathrooms. I dont' want to see the bars outside the shower/bath rust, so I am wary. I would like to have a screw that I didn't have to drill a pilot hole to install, but I would like to have rust resistance even more.
Any thoughts would certainly be appreciated!
Robert
Leon
Aug 22, 2015, 1:02:42 AM8/22/15
to
driving at an angle, I have had great luck with torx deck screws.
Not saying to use deck screws but, I see that Spax cabinet screws use a
"T-Star Drive". Is that the same as Torx? I know that there is a drive
that looks like a torx but not exactly, like square drive and Robertson
drive. Could you possibly be using the wrong bit? I know you said you
used the one that came with it.
And FWIW I looked at HD Spax driver bits. They are not the same as
Torx. Oddly they have an extension on the end that prevents the splines
on the bit to reach the bottom of the screw. Torx bit don't have that
extension. Weird
Spax Bit
http://www.homedepot.com/b/Tools-Hardware-Power-Tool-Accessories-Drill-Bits-Driving-Bits/T-Star-plus/N-5yc1vZc267Z1z0zuwr
Torx bit
http://www.homedepot.com/s/torx%2520bit?NCNI-5
Maybe an actual Torx bit would work better.
nailsh...@aol.com
Aug 22, 2015, 2:14:49 AM8/22/15
to
On Saturday, August 22, 2015 at 12:02:42 AM UTC-5, Leon wrote:
> Typically torx are easier to drive than square drive and forgiving when
> driving at an angle, I have had great luck with torx deck screws.
When I am over the screws or in a parallel driving position, I don't notice much difference. I usually use the square drives though as Texas Tool has a great deal on 3" square drive weather resistant screws.
> Typically torx are easier to drive than square drive and forgiving when
> driving at an angle, I have had great luck with torx deck screws.
> Not saying to use deck screws but, I see that Spax cabinet screws use a
> "T-Star Drive". Is that the same as Torx? I know that there is a drive
> that looks like a torx but not exactly, like square drive and Robertson
> drive. Could you possibly be using the wrong bit? I know you said you
> used the one that came with it.
>
> And FWIW I looked at HD Spax driver bits. They are not the same as
> Torx. Oddly they have an extension on the end that prevents the splines
> on the bit to reach the bottom of the screw. Torx bit don't have that
> extension. Weird
I didn't think to use a regular Torx bit. Probably because I have used these screws for the last 10+ years:
http://goo.gl/mNxcy1
These screws are supposed to be #2 Phillips, but I found out the hard way that they are slightly larger, and the #2 bit THEY supply actually fits perfectly. Conversely, it almost doesn't work at all on a regular #2 Phillips. So when a manufacturer supplies a bit with their fasteners, I don't look left or right, but use the one they supply.
I like those Grip Right screws as I have never had one bit of problems with them, ever. Very rarely do they cam out, I have never broken a head or the shaft when driving, and never had one fail. I hang cabinets with them, screw cab stiles together with them, make repairs with them, fix decks with them, and on a on. However, a pilot hole and a head sink is a must, so after talking with Karl he assured me that those two steps were almost never required. He was right of course, and the Spax have turned out to be a time saver and a half. I guess I will try a regular Torx bit and let you know how it turns out.
They have a new brand of screws on a kiosk at one of the HDs I go in the most, and they were supposed to be direct competitors to both Grip Rite and Spax. They are really aggressive in their threads and have a deep cut along the side of the shaft with a sharp point that means no drilling. Could be interesting.
Robert
Leon
Aug 22, 2015, 9:08:13 AM8/22/15
to
Screws or from McFeeleys. If I am in need of a lot of long 3" screws, like
for 2x4 stuff I use the torx head tan coated deck screws. I have found
that they are not nearly as tough or stiff as the non coated McFeeley
screws. A few years ago I bought a box of 3-4 hundred of the torx coated
deck screws to build shelving in my store room they worked great. I used
the same batch to build a 4' x 8 ' porch on the front of the store room.
I used treated 2x4's and the 5/4, 1x6 treated deck boards. I have been
very disappointed in both the deck boards and or the deck screws. During
the summers if the deck boards get wet they bow and actually break those
coated deck screws. Oddly those deck screws are doing fine inside the shed
but they are breaking on the outside. I have had to replace 5-6 in the
last 3 years.
I'll have to keep an eye out for that new brand I'd screw.
John McCoy
Aug 22, 2015, 9:51:00 AM8/22/15
to
Leon <lcb11211@swbelldotnet> wrote in
news:aL2dndg_7I3yn0XI...@giganews.com:
> Not saying to use deck screws but, I see that Spax cabinet screws use
> a "T-Star Drive". Is that the same as Torx? I know that there is a
> drive that looks like a torx but not exactly, like square drive and
> Robertson drive. Could you possibly be using the wrong bit? I know
> you said you used the one that came with it.
According to Spax, they use a "T-Star Plus" head. T-Star Plus
is apparently the same as "Torx Plus". According to Texron
(who developed Torx) the Torx Plus bit allows more torque. It's
also a tad larger than standard Torx, so a regular Torx bit will
fit a Torx Plus screw, but poorly.
This seems to me to be an unfortunate attempt by Texron to
confuse the market. Now we have two slightly different Torx
drivers that sort of work but aren't really compatible. Much
like the dozen different variations on Phillips (and the
tendency of cheap drivers to not exactly match any of the
specifications).
FWIW, I have always heard that "square drive" and "Robertson"
are exactly the same. The square drive name is used in the US
because of some legal thing about the trademarking of the name
Robertson in Canada.
John
news:aL2dndg_7I3yn0XI...@giganews.com:
> Not saying to use deck screws but, I see that Spax cabinet screws use
> a "T-Star Drive". Is that the same as Torx? I know that there is a
> drive that looks like a torx but not exactly, like square drive and
> Robertson drive. Could you possibly be using the wrong bit? I know
> you said you used the one that came with it.
is apparently the same as "Torx Plus". According to Texron
(who developed Torx) the Torx Plus bit allows more torque. It's
also a tad larger than standard Torx, so a regular Torx bit will
fit a Torx Plus screw, but poorly.
This seems to me to be an unfortunate attempt by Texron to
confuse the market. Now we have two slightly different Torx
drivers that sort of work but aren't really compatible. Much
like the dozen different variations on Phillips (and the
tendency of cheap drivers to not exactly match any of the
specifications).
FWIW, I have always heard that "square drive" and "Robertson"
are exactly the same. The square drive name is used in the US
because of some legal thing about the trademarking of the name
Robertson in Canada.
John
Leon
Aug 22, 2015, 10:03:29 AM8/22/15
to
drive is tapered slightly toward the point of the bit. The Robertson
holds the screw better. Square drive is not. But like we all know you
can make either work just like the multiple designs of Phillips like screws.
Leon
Aug 22, 2015, 10:30:29 AM8/22/15
to
On 8/22/2015 8:49 AM, John McCoy wrote:
A handy guide showing how the Robertson bit fits better in a Robertson
screw and types of screws.
Leon
Aug 22, 2015, 10:40:22 AM8/22/15
to
On 8/21/2015 6:08 PM, nailsh...@aol.com wrote:
bits and screws. If the protrusion on the end of the bit does not fit
the hole in the bottom of the bit the splines are surely not going to
engage properly. I doubt that a normal Torx bit will work any better on
these screws, bur "maybe" they will For your application the head that
Spax uses is probably not going to work well.
http://fitberg.istore.pl/upload/photos/original/28513967.jpg
Leon
Aug 22, 2015, 10:41:47 AM8/22/15
to
If the protrusion on the end of the bit does not fit into
the hole in the bottom of the "screw" the splines are surely not going
to engage properly.
Leon
Aug 22, 2015, 10:45:57 AM8/22/15
to
On 8/22/2015 9:40 AM, Leon wrote:
And just one more thing, I think. ;~)
Spax web site boasts, German Engineered, American Made
That might be the problem. LOL
In another thread, I mentioned that I learned that Mercedes built a
plant, in the US, to build cars specifically for China.
Looks like the Germans are using us to build knock offs. ;~(
Bill
Aug 22, 2015, 12:00:29 PM8/22/15
to
than a non-impact driver. The "angle of engagement" (my phrase) was even
more foregiving.
nailsh...@aol.com
Aug 22, 2015, 9:31:00 PM8/22/15
to
On Saturday, August 22, 2015 at 9:45:57 AM UTC-5, Leon wrote:
> And just one more thing, I think. ;~)
>
> Spax web site boasts, German Engineered, American Made
> That might be the problem. LOL
And indeed, it may be the last thing. After looking closely at the HD site for the Spax screw descriptions, I don't know that I have the correct drive bits for any of their screws. That sir, is a deal killer. If I drop a bit in the grass, break it, it rolls off a roof during a repair, or is worn to the point of not working, unless I purchased more of their proprietary bits I would be screwed. No thanks.
> And just one more thing, I think. ;~)
>
> Spax web site boasts, German Engineered, American Made
> That might be the problem. LOL
At least with the Grip Rite bits I can use a Phillips to drive them, even if it isn't a perfect fit. I tried my Robertson bits, no dice. Same with Torx, Hex, and Square drive bits. So it is their drive bit or nothing. Not such a big deal on a shop environment, but these are sold for use as I understood them, for general construction use. Out on site, a bit can get lost pretty easily.
Robert
-MIKE-
Aug 23, 2015, 12:06:36 AM8/23/15
to
On 8/21/15 6:08 PM, nailsh...@aol.com wrote:
> Karl, after we talked about different types of fasteners a while
> back, I decided to give SPAX a try. You're right... I like them!
> They are a graded fastener, the have a thinner body than the screws
> I was using, and they are easier to drive.
>
Welcome to the dark side! :-)
> Karl, after we talked about different types of fasteners a while
> back, I decided to give SPAX a try. You're right... I like them!
> They are a graded fastener, the have a thinner body than the screws
> I was using, and they are easier to drive.
>
> However...
>
> I like the Torx drive, but the driver they supply seems soft. The
> screw heads don't seem too deep, so you have to be at 90 degrees to
> have solid, no slip drive. I am used to the hundreds of thousands
> of Phillips and square drive screws I have driven, and find the fact
> I have to be right on top of the screw to drive it annoying as hell.
> In a tight space with a long extension to reach, I can usually drive
> a Phillips head about 15 degrees of so off parallel from the head,
> not so with the SPAX screws and the supplied bit. Since I do a lot
> of maintenance and repairs, this is pretty important to me.
>
spares. Buy some high quality Torx bits and use them. They are much
more forgiving to angled driving.
> It was highlighted last week when I had the kick off a long bath
> vanity that was caulked/marble topped/mirrored into place and I
> couldn't get to the carcass base runners any other way than laying
> on my stomach and running my impact driver with a long extension with
> a screw on it as far back as I could reach. When the screw would
> bite and find its way into the wood, it would change the drive angle
> and the bit would slip from the screw. After goofing with it (laying
> on my stomach getting my arms torn up by the tack strip) for about
> 30 minutes I gave up and got my Phillips screws out and finished the
> job quickly.
>
> This isn't the first time I have had drive problems with the screws,
> so I am wondering what the problem might be. When I am over the
> screw, they drive very well and their aggressive threads make it
> quick. I like they fact that hey are graded for use, and the others
> I use aren't.
>
> So is it the bit, the screws, or both? Or do I need to confine my
> use of these to more perfect conditions?
>
proper size. Spax screws use 10, 15, and 20, IIRC. You *can* drive a
20 with a 15 and a 15 with a 10 when you are straight on and don't need
huge torque, but as soon as you angle out a but, they spin. So always
be sure you have the proper size. (You probably did!)
> Next, how water/moisture resistant are these screws? I am getting
> ready to install a lot of grab bars in a house, and a few will be in
> the house bathrooms. I dont' want to see the bars outside the
> shower/bath rust, so I am wary. I would like to have a screw that I
> didn't have to drill a pilot hole to install, but I would like to
> have rust resistance even more.
>
> Any thoughts would certainly be appreciated!
>
> Robert
>
were printed larger, but they are there. I believe they also carry a
stainless series, too, for times when you want to be super-safe.
--
-MIKE-
"Playing is not something I do at night, it's my function in life"
--Elvin Jones (1927-2004)
--
http://mikedrums.com
mi...@mikedrumsDOT.com
---remove "DOT" ^^^^ to reply
J. Clarke
Aug 23, 2015, 7:20:34 PM8/23/15
to
In article <71d52f53-f20c-45fd...@googlegroups.com>,
nailsh...@aol.com says...
Just a data point concerning SPAX. I used some galvanized SPAX for
various projects a while back including putting together some
scaffolding and attaching a gutter.
Last winter the gutter came down with an ice dam. Looking at it all but
two of the SPAX were broken, not pulled out, and the ones that broke
broke off even with the plastic brackets. Of the two that pulled out,
one of those was also partly broken at the same place as the others.
Also, when taking apart the scaffolding, several of the screws broke at
roughly the same place as the ones holding the gutter.
They were put in and taken out with an 18v deWalt impact driver.
I don't know if this is characteristic of them, or if it was unique to
the batch I have.
I also note that the ones at Home Depot are a bit different from the
ones I have but I haven't compared them side by side to say in what way
exactly.
nailsh...@aol.com says...
various projects a while back including putting together some
scaffolding and attaching a gutter.
Last winter the gutter came down with an ice dam. Looking at it all but
two of the SPAX were broken, not pulled out, and the ones that broke
broke off even with the plastic brackets. Of the two that pulled out,
one of those was also partly broken at the same place as the others.
Also, when taking apart the scaffolding, several of the screws broke at
roughly the same place as the ones holding the gutter.
They were put in and taken out with an 18v deWalt impact driver.
I don't know if this is characteristic of them, or if it was unique to
the batch I have.
I also note that the ones at Home Depot are a bit different from the
ones I have but I haven't compared them side by side to say in what way
exactly.
nailsh...@aol.com
Aug 24, 2015, 2:07:16 AM8/24/15
to
I have read all the responses and appreciate the time taken to respond. This looks like it is getting harder than it needs to be for a damn screw. Think at this point I will be using Spax to hang cabinets as I like the no drilling needed aspect.
But I can't see myself buying a special set of bits to drive screws. I need to be able to go out to the truck and get the screws, drill/driver, and the box of drivers and get started. These may just be too fussy for me. When I use square drive screws from my fastener supplier, ANY square driver bit works. Even with the Grip Right screws that come with their own bit, in a pinch I can use a generic Phillips. I'm really not interested in keeping a supply of "Spax only" drive bits in the truck along with screws that require a special driver meaning that I can't give either of them to one of my carpenters knowing he may not have one of their proprietary bits. Or making sure that if I send a helper out to the tool box to get screws and drive bits that he comes back with the right combination while I am waiting for him so I can finish a task.
I think I might drop into Fastenal here in town to see what they might have that is a quality screw that uses a STANDARD torx or square bit to drive them.
Robert
But I can't see myself buying a special set of bits to drive screws. I need to be able to go out to the truck and get the screws, drill/driver, and the box of drivers and get started. These may just be too fussy for me. When I use square drive screws from my fastener supplier, ANY square driver bit works. Even with the Grip Right screws that come with their own bit, in a pinch I can use a generic Phillips. I'm really not interested in keeping a supply of "Spax only" drive bits in the truck along with screws that require a special driver meaning that I can't give either of them to one of my carpenters knowing he may not have one of their proprietary bits. Or making sure that if I send a helper out to the tool box to get screws and drive bits that he comes back with the right combination while I am waiting for him so I can finish a task.
I think I might drop into Fastenal here in town to see what they might have that is a quality screw that uses a STANDARD torx or square bit to drive them.
Robert
Leon
Aug 24, 2015, 9:25:34 AM8/24/15
to
code approved.
http://www.mcfeelys.com/screws-fasteners-4.html?brand_name=177
http://www.grkfasteners.com/index.php/en/
FREE Samples
http://www.grkfasteners.com/index.php/en/component/visforms/?view=visforms&id=2
John McCoy
Aug 24, 2015, 10:05:13 AM8/24/15
to
"J. Clarke" <j.clark...@gmail.com> wrote in
news:MPG.304420734...@news.eternal-september.org:
> I also note that the ones at Home Depot are a bit different from the
> ones I have but I haven't compared them side by side to say in what
> way exactly.
Going off on a tangent here, but "a bit different at Home
Depot" tends to be a red flag for me. Home Depot is big
enough in volume that they can insist on vendors making a
special, lower cost version just for Home Depot. And it's
a very rare thing for the lower cost version to be of the
same quality as the "standard" version - the vendor has to
make up the cost difference somewhere.
John
news:MPG.304420734...@news.eternal-september.org:
> I also note that the ones at Home Depot are a bit different from the
> ones I have but I haven't compared them side by side to say in what
> way exactly.
Depot" tends to be a red flag for me. Home Depot is big
enough in volume that they can insist on vendors making a
special, lower cost version just for Home Depot. And it's
a very rare thing for the lower cost version to be of the
same quality as the "standard" version - the vendor has to
make up the cost difference somewhere.
John
0 new messages