lighten gel stain

[Len]

I started finishing a project and am having a minor problem with get stain.

The piece was sanded to 220 grit and then dyed. The dye was allowed to dry for 24 hours. I then applied a coat of gel stain. After 10 minutes I rubbed it off and left it for a day. It is toooo dark. Can I use something like mineral spirits to rub it so that the color is a bit lighter? The dye was water based. The gel stain is oil.

Len

[dadiOH]

In 24 hours, the oil has likely dried to the point that mineral spirits
won't touch it. Lacquer thinner might but could be hard to control (get
even). Sanding would work too.

Question: why dye AND stain? Why not multiple coats of one or the other?

--
dadiOH

[nailsh...@aol.com]

If anyone could figure out how to lighten the color of a stained piece
and still have it look good, they could make a fortune.

Been doing this a while I have, and although I have seen a lot of
attempts to lighten or alter after application of stain and dye, never
have I ever seen one work. A nice project... ruined. Some of today's
stain can't even be sanded out because the penetrate so deeply.

Always, always, always.... test out colors and finishing protocols on
a scrap of your target wood. While I feel bad for Len, this is how
one learns to do that as part of the finishing process. Hopefully
this wasn't some huge project with a ton of time and material in it.

Robert

[Len]

Robert,

I did test it along with a number of different colors. The test pieces were even made from a cutoff of the same piece of wood. I think I either left the extra stain on too long or did not rub it off hard enough.

Len

[Len]

>
>
> Question: why dye AND stain? Why not multiple coats of one or the other?
>
>
>
> --
>
> dadiOH

The dye gives the entire field a uniform background color. The dye is supposed to go into the grain and enhance it. A lot of furniture is done this way.

Len

[-MIKE-]

On 5/29/13 9:22 AM, nailsh...@aol.com wrote:
> If anyone could figure out how to lighten the color of a stained piece
> and still have it look good, they could make a fortune.

+1

> Been doing this a while I have, and although I have seen a lot of
> attempts to lighten or alter after application of stain and dye, never
> have I ever seen one work. A nice project... ruined. Some of today's
> stain can't even be sanded out because the penetrate so deeply.

Especially dyes.
Depending on the wood, I swear it can go down 1/8" or more. :-)
But I love the stuff!


--

-MIKE-

"Playing is not something I do at night, it's my function in life"
--Elvin Jones (1927-2004)
--
http://mikedrums.com
mi...@mikedrumsDOT.com
---remove "DOT" ^^^^ to reply

[SonomaProducts.com]

[SonomaProducts.com]

On Wednesday, May 29, 2013 5:58:47 AM UTC-7, Len wrote:

> I started finishing a project and am having a minor problem with get stain.
>

>

> Len

Gel stain is just stain mixed with thickened polyurethane. No need to leave it on more than a few seconds. It really sits mostly on top of the wood and the thicker the film the darker the tone. Sanding is the only hope once it has dried and unless you want a distressed look you need to sand it down to bare wood.

One good reason I suggest one ALWAYS does a complete finish on wood from the same boards, prepared in the same manner planed\sanded\etc. before touching your project. You should even wax it and look at it in the room where the piece will live to see how the light there works on it. I have about 20 boards with sample finishes I have tried over the years with descriptions on the back of the prep and layers of color, etc. I can do 6 or 8 samples before choosing a finish and usually throw out most of the samples. I keep them if they are nice but not correct for the current project.

[SonomaProducts.com]

Well, if you want to pop the grain with our without a dye background, you should do a wash coat of shellac first(thinned a lot). Then a gel stain or a grain filler or you can even use a traditional pigment stain but better to just scrape the pigment from the bottom of an un-stirred can. Then you can get color into the grain and not effect the background color. Works great for grainy woods like white and red oak or mahogany. I consider it a must for oak and I do use gel stain for this as it is the easiest of the options.

[nailsh...@aol.com]

On May 29, 2:49 pm, "SonomaProducts.com" <bwx...@yahoo.com> wrote:

> Gel stain is just stain mixed with thickened polyurethane.

Well, I am always the guy willing to learn. In my finishing
experience, I have never heard that once. Not at the Sherwin Williams
training seminars I have been to, not at the Old Masters education and
application classes, nor anywhere else.

In fact, what they said had absolutely nothing to do with
polyurethane. Do you have a specific site, or cite from a gel stain
manufacturer detailing your description as their method of
manufacture?

Robert

[Leon]

A couple of comments that in some instances substantiate what you are
saying and what Sonoma is saying.

http://www.flickr.com/photos/lcb11211/8890402603/

Pictured is a gel stain product that I used to use many years ago,
Bartley's gels stains and varnishes. Above is a stain.
This product did have a finish mixed in with the stain. This particular
fruitwood stain sable states the beauty of a varnish with the protection
of a poly.

Bartely's gel stains did leave a sheen although the sheen was blotchy
and IMHO was never enough to be the final coat.

Further with this particular product in another color stain I did have n
occasion on a project where the stain was unsatisfactory. Within the
day as a desperate effort to undo the problem I wiped the entire surface
down with paint thinner to remove the unwanted layer, resanded and
reapplied the same product again with results shown below.

I will say I was lucky and that I would never want to try this again.
This was not a new product form me when I built this chest nor was the
color. For some reason the oak plywood panels simply did not stain
properly the first time. Second time was a charm.

Note, the chest also had an additional 3 coats of Bartley's gel varnish.

http://www.flickr.com/photos/lcb11211/8891157786/

Because both Bartley's and Lawrence Mcfaddens products are mostly
unobtainable anymore I have had to search for a replacement, in
particular gel varnishes.

About 18 months ago I again tried General Finishes Gel stains and was
shocked that they could be so easily removed. Basically if you went
back over a previous spot to perhaps remove excess build up at a corner
the wet stain rag would actually remove 50% the previously applied
stain. I found the product almost impossible to work with. That was an
Espresso color. This was on the interior of the pantry cabinet in my
house. I resorted to a dark brown dye.

[SonomaProducts.com]

hane. Do you have a specific site, or cite from a gel stain
>
> manufacturer detailing your description as their method of
>
> manufacture?
>
>
>
> Robert

Hey, I've been wrong before. I've been told this several times by pro finishers I trust and from the performance I've seen I had no reason to doubt it. All the mfr's do say to top coat after so I suppose it is a pretty soft or thin mix.

General is the only one I can see quickly that comes right out and says it. http://www.generalfinishes.com/retail-products/oil-base-wood-stains-sealers/oilbase-gel-stains#.UaeGLEDvvnE

But that fact that Varathane also offers a Gel Stain kind of indicates there must be some association, I mean what else does Varathane brand make besides poly?

Anyway, I know it makes some people sick to think they have put poly on their projects but I use it where it is the right thing and I have left gel stain coated items with no other top coat finish to long lasting good results.

I mean there is surely some pretty strong chain binder on there because they all tout their ability to be used on fiberglass and that takes some adhesion I suppose.

So not proof positive other than the General brand I guess.

[nailsh...@aol.com]

On May 30, 12:39 pm, "SonomaProducts.com" <bwx...@yahoo.com> wrote:

> General is the only one I can see quickly that comes right out and says it.http://www.generalfinishes.com/retail-products/oil-base-wood-stains-s...

I didn't know that General finishes was marketing their "all in one"
finishes as gel finish. Checking your link, it indeed falls under the
"oil based wood stain SEALER" category, not stain.

General used to make a gel stain, that was indeed just a stain. I
have used it, and it wasn't that good. It didn't have the body to
make it a good gel product as it was too watery and the percentage of
solids was too low.

I see now they are marketing the on Minwax style colored poly. To me
this isn't stain, although it stains what you put it on. Of course
they can call it caviar if they want since it is their product, but
stain or dye is a colorant, not a finish. The stuff they show is
indeed probably some kind of lightweight poly, with enough colorant to
leave something behind including a small amount of protection, but not
enough that they feel the need to recommend a top coat. I wouldn't
trust the pros that you are consulting on this if they actually think
this is a true gel stain.

> But that fact that Varathane also offers a Gel Stain kind of indicates there must be some association, I mean what else does Varathane brand make besides poly?

Varnish, spar varnish, sealers, wood prep products (commercial only),
specialty coating (commercial only), paint, commercial grade finishes
for wood floors, and Rustoleum products.

They also make real, true stains, not just gel finishes:

http://www.generalfinishes.com/retail-products/water-base-wood-stains-dyes

> Anyway, I know it makes some people sick to think they have put poly on their projects but I use it where it is the right thing and I have left gel stain coated items with no other top coat finish to long lasting good results.

If they are "gel stains" as referenced above, that should work.
Personally, having been to enough training and education seminars to
fill a school year, I don't have any problems with poly. What folks
don't understand is there is no magic involved, no special formulas,
no unusual formulas. Just about any finish can be considered
polyurethane. Polyurethane only means multiple types of urethane
resins are in the mix. The types of solvents and carriers differ, but
they are almost all polyesters. And according to Sherwin Williams lab
guys the difference between poly and varnish in today's formulations
is almost nothing for the better brands.

> I mean there is surely some pretty strong chain binder on there because they all tout their ability to be used on fiberglass and that takes some adhesion I suppose.

I don't know what a chain binder is in this case... but I can tell you
that the thing that makes the gel stains work is the heavy concentrate
of solids and the medium VOC of the carriers. Check out the MSDS
sheet pdf for Old Masters below. The huge amount of solids is the
reason they are so expensive. There are also other factors. When
Bartley's used to make a true gel stain (no or very little added
resins) this was on their literature:

"Our gel products start
art life much the same as their liquid counter-
parts. A powdery thickening agent is added to the
liquid mix of resins, pigments and mineral spirits.
In a process known as thixotropy, 100-gal. batches
are put in a machine resembling a large milk-
shake maker. As the ingredients are stirred for at
least an hour, the chemicals react together and
heat up to around 150°F. Once this temperature
has been reached, the mixture must be canned
quickly before it cools and becomes the thick mix-
ture known as a gel stain.

> So not proof positive other than the General brand I guess.

Proof positive for >>their<< all in one product labeled as a gel
stain.

As far as Leon's example goes, at least Bartley's is honest. They
don't claim it be a stain. A quick look at the can and it is labeled
correctly as a "gel finish". So it is like using colored Waterlox or
their brothers and sisters, just a different consistency.

I have used Old Masters stain so much and so long I don't look at
other brands. It is a true stain, with no finish in it. It is made
as described above by the old Bartley's recipe before they Minwaxed
into an all in one.

You can see their product here:

http://www.myoldmasters.com/products-gel-stains.htm

And by reading the MSDS sheet you can see there are NO urethanes added
to the mix. It is a thixotropic stain formulation (again, SW guy said
that just means thickened with solids and heat), with no finishing
properties. Top coat of your choice is a must.

http://www.myoldmasters.com/resources/oldmasters_gelstain_tech_data.pdf

Personally, have dyed some poly and used it using Behlen's SolaLux.
That's it. I can't see a time when I would use and all in one product
as I have never seen any finisher (certainly myself included) that can
maintain complete control over the color and finish over anything more
than a small project. That's just my preference. The paint guy at
Home Depot tells me the same thing my Woodcraft buddy does, and that
is they sell the daylights out of that all in one stuff.

Robert

[SonomaProducts.com]

> "Our gel products start
>
> art life much the same as their liquid counter-
>
> parts. A powdery thickening agent is added to the
>
> liquid mix of resins, pigments and mineral spirits.
>
> In a process known as thixotropy, 100-gal. batches
>
> are put in a machine resembling a large milk-
>
> shake maker. As the ingredients are stirred for at
>
> least an hour, the chemicals react together and
>
> heat up to around 150°F. Once this temperature
>
> has been reached, the mixture must be canned
>
> quickly before it cools and becomes the thick mix-
>
> ture known as a gel stain.
>

Read "Resins" What do you think polyurethane is? It is just one form of resin. So they don't say poly but it is.

[nailsh...@aol.com]

On May 31, 2:15 pm, "SonomaProducts.com" <bwx...@yahoo.com> wrote:

> Read "Resins" What do you think polyurethane is? It is just one form of resin. So they don't say poly but it is.

I am glad to know that you are sure that you know the exact resins in
their mix! I didn't. So if you are <sure> that the resins referenced
there are air curing polyester resins, formulated for abrasion and
water resistance, and <not> included to ease application or to ensure
segregation of the solids, then you are right!

I didn't see that, but since there are many, many kinds of resins, I
will leave it to you to define their specific formula and type or
resin used for that exact product.

Robert

[Mike M]

Thank you for another series of informative posts. I've saved much of
what you have posted as it is very informative to me who doesn't do
much finishing. Most of my projects get oil or a wipe on finish. The
exception is my deck where the top railing gets spar varnish, and
every thing else gets teak oil. I live in the NW so everything gets
pressure washed every year. The teak oil isn't cheap, but I get the
real stuff and my cedar deck has held up for over a decade. Your
right it does pay to read the entire label. Watco teak oil says not
for deck use. Its about $12 a gallon cheaper.

[jaust...@yahoo.com]

I ran into the same problem, letting the gel stain stay on a bit to long and my piece was darker than I wanted. I took a brush cleaner ( I used sunny side brush cleaner) specifically made for cleaning shellac and varnish from brushes. I dip a clean cloth in it with my finger,and tested it on a spot that won't be seen, and it worked great,but I wouldn't go and soak your rag in it, I did it in small areas at a time.

[Leon]

On 8/9/2015 10:47 AM, jaust...@yahoo.com wrote:
> I ran into the same problem, letting the gel stain stay on a bit to long and my piece was darker than I wanted. I took a brush cleaner ( I used sunny side brush cleaner) specifically made for cleaning shellac and varnish from brushes. I dip a clean cloth in it with my finger,and tested it on a spot that won't be seen, and it worked great,but I wouldn't go and soak your rag in it, I did it in small areas at a time.
>

Not sure how old this thread is but..

Paint thinner will remove gel stains.

[dees...@gmail.com]

I too had a problem with java gel stain. Ive see furniture stained already so I bought it for my bare wood dresser. I watched general finishes videos on how to apply. I've stained before so I didn't think I needed a test.Boy don't trust what you see or read! I applied a 8 inch section on a drawer,it was dark almost black so immediately wiped away but it did not lighten. It was like the wood sucked it in. It looks solid black, so dissapointed, now I have to resand to remove. Guess I'll go back to Minwax products don't know what I did wrong.

[Swingman]

On 10/13/2016 2:37 PM, dees...@gmail.com wrote:
> I too had a problem with java gel stain. Ive see furniture stained already so I bought it for my bare wood dresser. I watched general finishes videos on how to apply. I've stained before so I didn't think I needed a test.Boy don't trust what you see or read! I applied a 8 inch section on a drawer,it was dark almost black so immediately wiped away but it did not lighten. It was like the wood sucked it in. It looks solid black, so dissapointed, now I have to resand to remove. Guess I'll go back to Minwax products don't know what I did wrong.

Before you go to sanding too much see if some minerals spirits on a rag
will lighten it up.

But, you gotta be quick IME, as it is the devil/study in frustration to
get it blended in with what was wiped just a few minutes before.

--
eWoodShop: www.eWoodShop.com
Wood Shop: www.e-WoodShop.net
https://www.google.com/+eWoodShop
https://plus.google.com/+KarlCaillouet/posts
http://www.custommade.com/by/ewoodshop/
https://www.facebook.com/eWoodShop-206166666122228
KarlCaillouet@ (the obvious)

[Leon]

On 10/13/2016 2:37 PM, dees...@gmail.com wrote:

Well Java should be almost black. And I have had no luck at all with
General Finish Java Gel coming out any where near dark.

[Swingman]

On 10/13/2016 6:32 PM, Leon wrote:

> Well Java should be almost black. And I have had no luck at all with
> General Finish Java Gel coming out any where near dark.

This was done with GF's(?) "Java" ... I know it was "Java', but not sure
about GF's?

Got it a Rockler in any event, circa 2011, so it likely is.

Actually like what it did to this prototype chair, made of poplar first,
before using QSWO for the real chairs.

Been hard for me to stain poplar this satisfactorily for my taste any
other way, IME.

Before:

https://goo.gl/photos/uT3Si8S1vBs9EHzn7

After:

https://goo.gl/photos/js9XtwmgAvWbaGCe7

[Leon]

On 10/14/2016 12:46 PM, Swingman wrote:
> On 10/13/2016 6:32 PM, Leon wrote:
>
>> Well Java should be almost black. And I have had no luck at all with
>> General Finish Java Gel coming out any where near dark.
>
> This was done with GF's(?) "Java" ... I know it was "Java', but not sure
> about GF's?
>
> Got it a Rockler in any event, circa 2011, so it likely is.
>
> Actually like what it did to this prototype chair, made of poplar first,
> before using QSWO for the real chairs.
>
> Been hard for me to stain poplar this satisfactorily for my taste any
> other way, IME.
>
> Before:
>
> https://goo.gl/photos/uT3Si8S1vBs9EHzn7
>
> After:
>
> https://goo.gl/photos/js9XtwmgAvWbaGCe7
>
>

IIRC our kitchen cabinets are Java I was trying to match that on our
pantry, and it came out lighter than your chair. I ended up using "Dark
Brown" dye to get the dark.

My biggest problem is that the lap marks "removed" darkness, not get
darker. Even the guys at Woodcraft were scratching their heads on that
one. They credited me for the unused portion towards the dye.

[Swingman]

On 10/14/2016 12:59 PM, Leon wrote:
> My biggest problem is that the lap marks "removed" darkness, not get
> darker. Even the guys at Woodcraft were scratching their heads on that
> one. They credited me for the unused portion towards the dye.

Exactly the experience I mentioned earlier above when attempting to
touch up/repair previously gel stained components.

Makes perfect sense when you consider that the solvent in the new stain
acts to loosen/dissolve the existing binder from the binder/pigment
mixture that was previously applied.

[Leon]

On 10/14/2016 5:25 PM, Swingman wrote:
> On 10/14/2016 12:59 PM, Leon wrote:
>> My biggest problem is that the lap marks "removed" darkness, not get
>> darker. Even the guys at Woodcraft were scratching their heads on that
>> one. They credited me for the unused portion towards the dye.
>
> Exactly the experience I mentioned earlier above when attempting to
> touch up/repair previously gel stained components.
>
> Makes perfect sense when you consider that the solvent in the new stain
> acts to loosen/dissolve the existing binder from the binder/pigment
> mixture that was previously applied.
>

Yes it does make sense, BUT Bartely gel stains never did this. The
biggest issue is when I do a face frame and go in one direction and end
up at the starting point. When the fresh stain meets the portion I
stained 5 minutes prior the stain comes off and is lighter.

This was not an issue with Bartleys and IIRC Lawrence McFadden gel
stains. Once stained, it was there to stay. I will be anxious, I
think, to see how Old Masters gel stains work, so far I have only use
the gel varnish.

Additionally this was not an issue with GF gel Candle Light or Georgian
Cherry gel stain. I have only had this issue with the Java color.

Now this is really hard to consider. With Bartely's you wiped the stain
on and immediately wiped off. If you happened to leave or miss a smear,
thick spot, this could be removed with the stain, it would dissolve the
glob and the rest of the stain remained in tact with out lightening or
darkening.

[Swingman]

Biggest problem I had was on areas that had corners or 90 joins. It
stayed darker in corners, where it was difficult to reach, and lightened
everywhere else. To the point I've ended up using q-ips to blend the
corners and 90 joins. PITA

[Leon]

I hate staining corners and the number one reason that I now prestain
pieces before assembly if it will save me from applying stain into corners.

[Swingman]

On 10/15/2016 11:28 AM, Leon wrote:

> I hate staining corners and the number one reason that I now prestain
> pieces before assembly if it will save me from applying stain into corners.

Me too, but that doesn't work when the client changes their mind about
the color. :(

Spent $340 on one project just deciding upon another stain ... after the
first coat went.

If you need a few gallons of some very nice stain, might want to look at
my inventory.

[woodchucker]

On 10/14/2016 1:46 PM, Swingman wrote:
> On 10/13/2016 6:32 PM, Leon wrote:
>
>> Well Java should be almost black. And I have had no luck at all with
>> General Finish Java Gel coming out any where near dark.
>
> This was done with GF's(?) "Java" ... I know it was "Java', but not sure
> about GF's?
>
> Got it a Rockler in any event, circa 2011, so it likely is.
>
> Actually like what it did to this prototype chair, made of poplar first,
> before using QSWO for the real chairs.
>
> Been hard for me to stain poplar this satisfactorily for my taste any
> other way, IME.
>
> Before:
>
> https://goo.gl/photos/uT3Si8S1vBs9EHzn7
>
> After:
>
> https://goo.gl/photos/js9XtwmgAvWbaGCe7
>
>

damn, that's nice for Java.. I have not been a fan of Java b4 but that
came out nice.

--
Jeff

[woodchucker]

Bartley's is still available.
I just bought some 3 months ago, haven't used it yet.

--
Jeff

[krw]

On Sat, 15 Oct 2016 11:28:51 -0500, Leon <lcb11211@swbelldotnet>
wrote:

Makes glue squeeze out less of a problem, too.

[Leon]

Swingman <k...@nospam.com> wrote:
> On 10/15/2016 11:28 AM, Leon wrote:
>
>> I hate staining corners and the number one reason that I now prestain
>> pieces before assembly if it will save me from applying stain into corners.
>
> Me too, but that doesn't work when the client changes their mind about
> the color. :(
>
> Spent $340 on one project just deciding upon another stain ... after the
> first coat went.
>
> If you need a few gallons of some very nice stain, might want to look at
> my inventory.
>

:-). Always test on scraps. I never stain the work before presenting
samples. But if it is who I think it is, no amount of precautionary
measures is guaranteed. :-(

[Leon]

Bartleys is available again and manufactured by another manufacturer,
again.


I used Bartleys for years until I learned that Lawrence McFadden acquired
the rights to manufacture the product. LF was a superior product, IMHO.
Lawrence McFadden went out of business and Seagraves coatings now
manufactures the products.

And I have only seen Bartleys online, not in any local stores.

[Brewster]

On 10/15/16 10:25 PM, Leon wrote:
>
>> Bartley's is still available.

Great! I love how that stuff works. Is it still called Bartleys?

-BR

[Swingman]

On 10/15/2016 11:21 PM, Leon wrote:
> Swingman <k...@nospam.com> wrote:
>> On 10/15/2016 11:28 AM, Leon wrote:
>>
>>> I hate staining corners and the number one reason that I now prestain
>>> pieces before assembly if it will save me from applying stain into corners.
>>
>> Me too, but that doesn't work when the client changes their mind about
>> the color. :(
>>
>> Spent $340 on one project just deciding upon another stain ... after the
>> first coat went.
>>
>> If you need a few gallons of some very nice stain, might want to look at
>> my inventory.
>>
>
> :-). Always test on scraps. I never stain the work before presenting
> samples.

Gee, why didn't I think of that. /S

> But if it is who I think it is, no amount of precautionary
> measures is guaranteed. :-(

You think? LOL