Formica counter top with wood trim, water trouble?
Ale2NOSPAM
around the perimeter of the top. I contemplate using two layers of particle
board as a base for the Formica. My worry is that as this counter top will
house the sink water will constantly be a threat to the particle board. My
thinking is to paint and sand the particle board where the cherry trim, the
particle board, and the Formica come together. My hope is that if some water
does get past this juncture it will not get past the paint and destroy the
particle board.
Questions, should the particle board be painted (near the junction) or would a
coating of epoxy be better.
Should the cherry trim be attached with water proof wood glue or would epoxy be
better? I plan on using screws in addition to the glue.
Another way of sealing the particle board was to first cover both the top and
the sides of the counter top with Formica and then attach the wood trim over
top of the side pieces of Formica. Do you think the extra effort is a good
idea?
Thanks for any thoughts on the matter.
Leon
counter tops with 3/4 x 1.5" oak trim on the front.
I made my counter top out of 2 standard 3/4" sheets of plywood glued
together for a 1.5" thickness. I laid the laminate on top of that with no
primer or paint.
HOWEVER, I used clear silicone sealer along the top edge where the oak and
Formica joined and yellow glue and finishing nails to attach the oak trim.
I applied a thin bead of silicone to the top edge of the counter top and put
the glue onto the trim. After 11 years I have had absolutely no problems
with water seepage anywhere.
Leon
"Ale2NOSPAM" <ale2n...@aol.com> wrote in message
news:20010211174840...@ng-cp1.aol.com...
Tom Vincent
Applying the laminate over the top of the substrate (in his application -
plywood) and the edging. This seals the junction when you apply the
adhesive and the laminate. This will allow you to route a profile in the
wood edge which enhances the look and trims the laminate all at the same
time. For even better results, try applying your favorite stain followed by
a couple coats of polyurethane or spar varnish. These coats polyurethane or
varnish will have to be brushed on carefully. During this process, you will
also be sealing the junction between the wood and the laminate.
One thing about using plywood as a substrate, it is wood. Even though it
is cross layered which makes it a little more stable, it will continue to
move somewhat. The flat surface grain will expand and contract over the
years in one direction more than the other (across the grain). Use of mdf
would be much flatter, equal density through out, and most important,
uniform movement that will almost match that of your high pressure laminate,
which, by the way is made of "paper", and moves equally in all directions.
Try using silicone under the rim of the sink, this will be a
watertight seal against water leaks in that critical area.
Hope this helps. Tom
Phil Hudak
What did you coat the oak with?
I tiled my kitchen counter about a year ago, and edged it with maple to
match my new cabinets. I applyed several coats of poly.
The poly on the top edge of the molding that is in front of the sink is
deteriorating, and the maple is grey where water has attacked it.
Should I have used something else besides poly (lacquer, maybe?)?
Can I somehow bleach-out the grey and then reseal it?
Thanks,
Phil
Mike Lazzari
> around the perimeter of the top. I contemplate using two layers of particle
> board as a base for the Formica. My worry is that as this counter top will
>
There are a couple of ways to treat the edge detail, both work fine.
#1) And by far the easiest is to apply the cherry edge first and run
the laminate over, sealing the joint between the particle board and
cherry. Finish the edge with a bevel or a bead to dress it up. I fasten
the edge on with biscuits to eliminate the filled holes which won't
darken like the cherry. And using 2 x 3/4 stock for the edge would save
some $$$
#2) much more complicated (but some like this look better) is to do
the laminate first and apply the edge last. In this case I glue and
staple a 1 1/2" strip of 1/2"+/- wood to the doubled up particle board
edge. This gives a much better surface to run the bearing against when
trimming for a truer edge. This edge will be plainly visible. Also the
wood acts as a barrier between any possible leak and the particle board.
Also before trimming the laminate I run some tape along the edge where
the bearing runs. This leaves the laminate overhanging just a shade for
glue space so it will butt tight to the finish edge. Use a file to joint
the laminate edge perfectly straight. Now apply the cherry edge. I bevel
the top of it 10 deg or so to facilitate trimming flush to the counter
top. Use biscuits, yellow glue and clamp. When I buy my laminate I also
order a tube of color match caulk. Now when the edge is ready to go on I
run a small bead of this caulk right along under the little overhang of
the laminate. Let this squeeze out as you clamp and wipe off with a
sponge. After you pull the clamps trim the top flush with a _very_
sharp chisel. Sand and finish.
Don't let anyone talk you into using plywood, it isn't a good
underlayment for formica. Tom (another post) is right about why not.
Use high density particle board, cheaper than mdf. And I wouldn't use
silicon, it'll make a mess that can't be completely removed. If you are
worried about water getting in the sink hole slap some polyU on the raw
edges after cutting out the sink. In my experience though, most water
damage is to the base cabinet under the sink, not to the counter.
Cut/glue/caulk a leftover scrap of formica to fit under the sink
Mike
Leon
and pressed it down firmly with my thumb nail to prevent seepage under the
tape. I then used Bartleys, Golden Oak, Gel stain to control seepage also.
This wipes on and off in a matter of a couple of minutes. I then used 4
coats of Bartleys Gel Varnish. 11 years later now it is finally in need of
applying a touch up stain and 4 more coats of varnish. The area of wear is
above the dish washer and at the sink. This gets wiped down every day in
these spots. This has held up well considering that the oak has been wet
wiped down about 4000 times.
In answer to your question, I gutted and rebuilt my sisters kitchen 3 years
ago in a similar manor that I did with mine. She however wanted the natural
color of the oak to show. Within 6 months, her natural oak back splash
started turning gray also behind the sink. I advised her to sand it down
and reapply the varnish , 4 coats, and put on 3 or 4 coats of wax over that.
This has worked well for the last 2.5 years.
My stained oak back splash and counter edge have never turned gray.
Perhaps the stain helps to hide or prevent any discoloration.
Leon
"Phil Hudak" <philSP...@earthlink.net> wrote in message
news:3A874084...@earthlink.net...
Byron Clinkingbeard
with exterior rated glue. Secondly, apply your cherry to the substrate
BEFORE you put the laminate on. This will eliminate any gap between the
trim and the substrate. You can rout a nice profile along the edge as
you're trimming the laminate--you'll just not be able to go all the way to
the walls because of the diameter of the router base. This will give you
the longest lasting and neatest looking outcome. HTH
--
Byron Clinkingbeard
http://home.att.net/~ByronClink
Ale2NOSPAM <ale2n...@aol.com> wrote in message
news:20010211174840...@ng-cp1.aol.com...
Leon
underpayment for plastic laminates, Plywood was the wood of choice. This
served well and those counter tops that used the plywood are still holding
up well. Plywood is stable enough for plastic laminates. The only problems
that I have ever witnessed is with the MDF and particle boards. If mounted
on the thrown together prefab lower cabinets and not properly supported they
will warp more than the plywood and the warping opens the possibility of
water leakage and swelling of the underpayment. I use the clear silicone
caulk that is paintable. I had no problem removing the thin bead of
silicone after it had cured.
"Mike Lazzari" <wate...@interisland.net> wrote in message
news:3A874B9E...@interisland.net...
Leon
top of the wood trim however I had 2 problems with this.
1. If you use a round over bit and the surface is not perfectly flat, you
will get a strange wavy top edge at the laminate where you will expose more
of the darker portion of the laminate at the hills along the edge and less
wood showing at the valleys. Since this is a night and day color change in
most instances, this will show up like a sore thumb even with an almost
perfectly flat surface.
2. If you use something like an ogee bit or lower the round over bit to make
a 90 degree cut and drop at the laminate down to the wood to avoid the
problem mentioned above, you create a stepped edge at the edge of the
counter. This will form a ledge for food and contaminates to lodge into
further creating a spot that may appear to be dirty. Plus this exposed edge
and seam between the laminate and the underlayment may chip and or
deteriorate.
Have I missed something here, or have you got something else in mind?
Leon
"Tom Vincent" <t...@alltel.net> wrote in message
news:967f26$ibi$1...@iac5.navix.net...
Phil Hudak
hope that it isn't too deep, otherwise the routed profile is going to
look like hell...
Best Regards,
Phil
Lew Hodgett
> I want to build a counter top with a Formica surface and 2X1.5 inch cherry
trim
> around the perimeter of the top. I contemplate using two layers of
particle
> board as a base for the Formica. My worry is that as this counter top will
> house the sink water will constantly be a threat to the particle board. My
> thinking is to paint and sand the particle board where the cherry trim,
the
> particle board, and the Formica come together. My hope is that if some
water
> does get past this juncture it will not get past the paint and destroy the
> particle board.
I buy epoxy in 500 lb drums, just so there is no mistake where my sentiments
lie.
Personally, would coat ALL raw edges of particle board with at least 2 coats
of epoxy, waiting 24 hours between coats.
This would include the raw edges of the sink cutout and any holes drilled
for the water lines.
As far as attaching the cherry trim, epoxy and some clamps negates any need
for nails.
That's of course, after you have left the 2 coats of epoxy cure so they seal
the raw edges.
That said. don't ever expect to remove the cherry trim.
You can then follow up with a couple of coats of epoxy on the cherry.
Thin coats with a foam brush are best.
Allow 48-72 hours between coats, then lightly sand with 220 grit before next
coat.
About 3-4 coats of epoxy on the cherry, that is followed up with a couple of
coats of UV resistant spar varnish, and you have a bullet proof top.
It's a lot of PITA work, but the results justify the effort, IMHO.
HTH
--
Lew
S/A: Challenge (Under Construction in the Southland)
Visit: <http://home.earthlink.net/~lewhodgett> for pictures
There are no problems, only varying degrees of challenging opportunity
Ops
this time Oak appr. 3/4 x 1.5". In my case I route out whatever profile I want
on the bottom edge of Oak first via router table then with a combination of yellow
glue and biscuits (about 8" apart) glue up the edging flush with MDF. I don't care
for plywood substrates (Too much movement) and HD particle board is difficult to
find around here. After glue is dried I sand the top edges to get everything as
flat
as possible before laying down coats of contact cement on formica. Lately I've
been using water based (neoprene) contact cement and if done right it works great
w/o the headaches, nasuea etc etc... After the cement has tacked up and I've
applied,
j-rolled and what not, I trim with a trim bit and then check edges again on Oak to
make
sure no bumps, ridges etc before I edge profile. Then I chuck whatever profile bit
and have at it. This time around I chamfered (45 degree) bottom and top edges to
match each other. Sand to desired finish afterwards, stain, then apply multiple
coats
of a spar varnish sanding between coats. I also very lighty knock off all edges
that
are against a solid surface once installed....By doing this your less likely to
catch the
counters edge therefore potentially chipping your work.... If your using plywood
you'll
have to factor in wood movement when mounting your countertops.... Good luck.
Ooops, don't forget to thoroughly silicone seal all backsplashes etc...
Todd
Tom Vincent
laminate and the wood a 90 degree "stepped edge" otherwise, yes, the dark
portion of the laminate will show. Since building our counter tops 7 years
ago, we haven't had any food or other buildups in this area.
I do admit, we are a little neater than the average family. Being a
woodworker, I like to teach my wife (sometimes difficult) and my kids (much
easier) to respect wood and it finishes.....a little training goes a long
way.
Any finish left alone long enough will start to detearate. Occasional
waxing will help greatly. Using a good spar varnish will most likely give a
long lasting finish--this is the finish they put on boats. A good
polyurethane will be the next best.
By-the-way, did I mention that the surround to our Jacuzzi tub is finish
in Red Oak.....very little problems here also...so far....but this was a
temporary measure as I do plan in the near future to tile the bathroom floor
and the tub surround....
All that to say this...a little t l c goes a long way.
If any of you care to be adventurers...try using some solid surfacing
materials....they are great for a nearly indestructible counter top. Some
brands are available to the public and most will machine with good quality
cutting tools. The formulated resins to join them is what gives it the
seamless look.
Tom