Worst Boards Ever
Cris Pavloff
Both sides of the picture have to be investigated.
My Vote For the biggest waste of plastic, sailng time, space, and
everything else:
the bic Tempo --> a total pig, slow, can't turn, rides nose high.
Yuck. Don't buy it. If you own it, sacrifice to the wind gods
immediately.
vikin...@global2000.net
pav...@nospam.ibm.net (Cris Pavloff) wrote:
>Both sides of the picture have to be investigated.
>My Vote For the biggest waste of plastic, sailng time, space, and
>everything else:
>the bic Tempo --> a total pig, slow, can't turn, rides nose high.
Not quite I vote for the Kerma Osprey a 10 foot, thin unstable board
even in flat water.. Only thing to do with it is to turn it into a
park bench.,
Peter Watkinson
pav...@nospam.ibm.net (Cris Pavloff) wrote:
>Both sides of the picture have to be investigated.
>
>My Vote For the biggest waste of plastic, sailng time, space, and
>everything else:
>
>
>the bic Tempo --> a total pig, slow, can't turn, rides nose high.
>
>Yuck. Don't buy it. If you own it, sacrifice to the wind gods
>immediately.
anything by Mistral
yuuuuuchh..
Peter Watkinson
pe...@peterw.demon.co.uk
http://www.peterw.demon.co.uk/
MTVNewsGuy
Cris Pavloff wrote: <<the bic Tempo --> a total pig, slow, can't turn, rides
nose high.>>
Wow...people really do like different things. I still have a great time on my
Tempo...it flies (though not an early planer in marginal winds), turns on a
dime, jumps beautifully.
Michael
US5613
William Fragakis
In article <34df82b9...@news1.ibm.net>, pav...@nospam.ibm.net (Cris
Pavloff) wrote:
> Both sides of the picture have to be investigated.
>
> My Vote For the biggest waste of plastic, sailng time, space, and
> everything else:
>
>
> the bic Tempo --> a total pig, slow, can't turn, rides nose high.
>
> Yuck. Don't buy it. If you own it, sacrifice to the wind gods
> immediately.
Gee, so I guess that a board that I've carried everything on from a 7.5
race sail to a 4.2 wave sail, that keeps me up with buds on boards that
cost twice as much, that carves a jibe on a dime, that taught me how to
plane through jibes, that has been bullet proof no matter how many times
I've been over the bars, onto sand at speed, over hidden nets...
Yeah, its a pig alright ;-).
BTW, so I'm not accused of being provincial, my other board is a carbon
sandwich wonder.
William
MTVNewsGuy
William wrote: <<Gee, so I guess that a board that I've carried everything on
from a 7.5 race sail to a 4.2 wave sail, that keeps me up with buds on boards
that cost twice as much, that carves a jibe on a dime, that taught me how to
plane through jibes, that has been bullet proof no matter how many times I've
been over the bars, onto sand at speed, over hidden nets...>>
I'm with you, William...my Tempo and 3 fins have gotten me through everything
(I haven't tried a 7.5, though I have sailed it in 3.5 conditions with a tiny
fin) And bulletproof it is! My other boards are a Seatrend Accelerator and a
258 Axxis from F2, btw.
Michael
US5613
NLW TFW NM
I don't think anybody can top this worst board ever candidate. It's not a
mainstream board, so it has an unfair advantage. But here goes.
Imagine a board that sails so poorly that advanced sailors can't sail it 500
meters without crashing. Several experts tried, and only one was able to get it
across the Columbia dry, little more than a km at that point, in nice 4.7
winds. It was so BAD that magazine testers lined up on shore to watch as we
took bets on who could sail it across without wiping out.
Its problem was that it was the original no-nose board. I mean it HAD NO NOSE.
They chopped roughly two feet of its damned nose, right square across, then
faired the stump into the board beautifully. After all, who needs the front of
the board when planing? So now you have no deck to speak of in front of the
mast -- just an 18"-wide squared-off nose and then water. Less swing weight,
less aerodynamic drag, lower weight. Great concept -- at Islamorada in the
Florida Keys.
But the rest of the world has something different, something dangerous, a
monster that reaches up to grab this true NO-nose board and yank it towards --
hell, damned near TO -- the core of the earth ... with the rider still hooked
in and doing 30 knots.
It's called CHOP, and this board had no CONCEPT of how to deal with it. We're
not talking mere pearling here; we're talking actual pearl-DIVING. We're
talking instantaneous 90-degree turns towards the opposite side of the earth
with no apparent speed loss. I mean before the driver could even finish the
"Oh" in "Oh Shit", he was inflated with water from his head to his toes. One
test rider came back up with the bends. Watchers on shore began yelling "Dive!
Dive! Dive!" as soon as a new sucker got onto a plane, then a perfectly
coordinated chorus of "aOOOOOOOga" at the first hint of white water at the
board's nose .... er, plow.
But if a rider managed to avoid snaring a bathtub full of chop with the nose,
he encountered its other endearing trait: Most big gusts just knocked the thing
sideways a lane or two. Your wake looked like a California freeway after ***
THE BIG ONE***. If that didn't absolutely blow you up, the next gust or piece
of chop did.
There should have been a big, red, bold warning stenciled on the deck:
***CAUTION: Operator must wear full motocross gear".
Finally Les Appel tiptoed up to the board, got his weight back to raise the
nose way up, and cautiously sailed it CLEAR ACROSS THE RIVER, did a tail-sunk
pivot jibe, and got it back across dry. We bowed to him -- and threw his dry
butt into the water.
And that was the last time we ever DREAMED of getting that board in the water.
Steer-wrestling at 30 knots boat speed ain't windsurfing.
Oh, yeah; It was called the Stealth. Probably a government project.
Mike \m/
Never Leave Wind To Find Wind
JC106
My vote is the Obrien "ProAm" aka "SloAm"
The one I rode had a windwand rail that splashed water into your face in chop.
Laurence Robinson
In article <nospam.fragakis-...@user-37kbt0j.dialup.mindspr
ing.com>, William Fragakis <nospam....@mindspring.com> writes
>In article <34df82b9...@news1.ibm.net>, pav...@nospam.ibm.net (Cris
>Pavloff) wrote:
>
>> Both sides of the picture have to be investigated.
>>
>> My Vote For the biggest waste of plastic, sailng time, space, and
>> everything else:
>>
>>
>> the bic Tempo --> a total pig, slow, can't turn, rides nose high.
>>
>> Yuck. Don't buy it. If you own it, sacrifice to the wind gods
>> immediately.
>
>race sail to a 4.2 wave sail, that keeps me up with buds on boards that
>cost twice as much, that carves a jibe on a dime, that taught me how to
>plane through jibes, that has been bullet proof no matter how many times
>I've been over the bars, onto sand at speed, over hidden nets...
>
>
>BTW, so I'm not accused of being provincial, my other board is a carbon
>sandwich wonder.
>
>William
-- A bad workman blames his tools. A yawn but true.
Laurence Robinson
Laurence Robinson
In article <19980210130...@ladder02.news.aol.com>, MTVNewsGuy
<mtvne...@aol.com> writes
>Cris Pavloff wrote: <<the bic Tempo --> a total pig, slow, can't turn, rides
>nose high.>>
>
>Wow...people really do like different things. I still have a great time on my
>Tempo...it flies (though not an early planer in marginal winds), turns on a
>dime, jumps beautifully.
>
>Michael
>US5613
>
--But it probably didnt cost much, that makes it crap.
Laurence Robinson
Cris Pavloff
It just means that you have not sailed a true gem then. And i'm not
talking about GEMs. Trust me, try a new board to replace it and you
WILL feel a hgue difference.
Williams
If you think the Tempo is a pig you really need to work on your short board
technique.
Cris Pavloff wrote in message <34df82b9...@news1.ibm.net>...
>Both sides of the picture have to be investigated.
>
>My Vote For the biggest waste of plastic, sailng time, space, and
>everything else:
>
>
>
Walt
> >
> >My Vote For the biggest waste of plastic, sailng time, space, and
> >everything else:
> >
thing delaminated within six months. I think it is still in my brother
in laws garage (he doesnt windsurf, probably thinks its cool to have a
windsurfer showing in the garage for the neighbors when he pulls in -
and of course, it is cool). Fortanately, my next board was a used F2
bullit (first ones out - about 300 cm) and it just blew me away the
first time I got on a short board plane. I can still remember the day.
Fun'est board Ive owned - F2 Axis 260. Even with newer stuff, Im not
sure Ive gone as fast.
Ice Flyer
http://rainbow.rmi.net/~ez2rem
NLW TFW NM
I owned a Tempo and a <$600 HiFly plastic wave/slalom (aka convertible) board
at the same time. The HiFLy ate the Tempo's lunch in every performance factor
except maybe for maximum sail size.
Comparison with stock fin on each:
The HiFly pointed MUCH higher.
The HiFly went faster on flat water, MUCH faster in chop.
The HiFly, being smaller, jibed and maneuvered and jumped more easily.
Both were tough; the plastic was tougher.
The plastic's ride was far superior.
The Tempo, being bigger, slogged more easlily, but then my 13' Wayler slogged
easier yet.
MTVNewsGuy
"Williams" wrote: <<If you think the Tempo is a pig you really need to work on
your short board technique.>>
You're right! I was thinking about the "nose-high" comments, which was a
problem I had when I first bought the Tempo, my first board under 125 liters.
As soon as I figured out mast base pressure, I was ripping around the water
with the best of them.
Michael
US5613
MTVNewsGuy
Note on Mike's Tempo experience...he was on a 1993 Tempo. My raves for my
stick refer to a 1994 Tempo.
Anyone out there who loves their 1993 or earlier (?) Tempo, give a shout!
-Michael
US5613
Jeff Earl
I LOVE MY '93 TEMPO!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Jeff
WARDOG
I don't know how they ride but, those pink OBRIENS that I still see on
sailors cars are the butt - ugliest!! Recycle those thangs!!!
Eyes4Hire
Mike (NLW TFW NM) wrote:
>I owned a Tempo and a <$600 HiFly plastic wave/slalom (aka convertible) board
>at the same time. The HiFLy ate the Tempo's lunch in every performance factor
>except maybe for maximum sail size.
>
>Comparison with stock fin on each:
>The HiFly pointed MUCH higher.
>The HiFly went faster on flat water, MUCH faster in chop...
While there is fair debate as to whether the Tempo was a good board or not, it
is very unfair to compare the Tempo with the stock fin. My Tempo WAS a complete
pig with the stock fin which was suited at best for use as a garden trowel.
After my fin snapped off for no apparant reason under the Golden Gate
(launching yet another great adventure based upon the principal 'adversity
builds character'), I got a real fin and found the board much more capable and
much more fun to sail.Luckily the quality of the stock fins has steadily
improved.
Peter
MTVNewsGuy
O'Brien's can take a punch, though. The Elite's weigh about 70 pounds, and if
you can get one planing, you can ditch the rig and still carve a 360 with the
momentum.
Joe Pasko
NLW TFW NM <nlwt...@aol.com> wrote:
Did a guy named Rod make the stealth ?? If so I've sailed one of the
prototypes in florida a long time ago.
He had a big thing for no-nose boards with 4 feet of flat(Those
designs were OK, they'd really get going in just about nothing), and
after a while he made a few radical designs(With the stealth label). 4
feet wide, 6 feet long, NO scoop(Not 1 damn inch).
It was the weirdest damn thing. Had many nose-dives on it, but manged
to get it planing for a few. Weird sensation, planing on a board 4
feet wide.
> Oh, yeah; It was called the Stealth. Probably a government project.
> Mike \m/
> Never Leave Wind To Find Wind
--
=================================================================
Joe Pasko
Unix Systems Administration
Supercomputer Computations Research Institute pa...@scri.fsu.edu
Phone (904) 644-0193 FAX (904) 644-0098
Alanballow
>
>Did a guy named Rod make the stealth ?? If so I've sailed one of the
>prototypes in florida a long time ago.
>
>He had a big thing for no-nose boards with 4 feet of flat(Those
>designs were OK, they'd really get going in just about nothing), and
>after a while he made a few radical designs(With the stealth label). 4
>feet wide, 6 feet long, NO scoop(Not 1 damn inch).
>
>It was the weirdest damn thing. Had many nose-dives on it, but manged
>to get it planing for a few. Weird sensation, planing on a board 4
>fee
That was Rod Dooms. He was here outside of Charleston, SC for a while
before returning to Florida.We called that board the Refrigerator Door. It had
about nineteen footstraps, when you finally could get it going it sailed like
it was on a rail. Not too many people besides Rod could sail it.
I bought a spoon board from him that was also tricky and interesting. About
7'6", took a lot of wind and required a lot of dues-paid before you got to
the fun part.
"Love the dolphins," she advised him. "Write by W.A.S.T.E.."
NLW TFW NM
I think Rod was the name, and I used the Islamorada example deliberately --
that's where it came from.
Miike \m/
Cris Pavloff
Thank YOU! Finally someone who knows what he's talking about.
It was my dad's tempo (a 93), and in about 3 months the thing
developed these huge bubbles on the bottom. So my dad sent it back
and got a Vivace 282 - a huge improvement.
So maybe it was a lemon, but still, I think that there are much better
boards out there, even in its time.
But if you like it that much, then stick with it (Count me out).
Cris Pavloff
BOARDS Magazine, the best WS magazine in the entire world said the
exact same thing. Go ahead and call all of their pro and very good
sailors dfeiceint in their technique. But I'll believe a pro gorup
like them before I believe one every day sailor like yourself.
Here's the Thing --> the Tempo is not the worst baord ever. But it
is so darn mediocre and average. It was vastly overrated by WS
magazine in its first year and dissapeared after only 2. Who wants to
pay a lot of money for mediocrity. It's a good buy at a swap for a
couple hundred bucks because it is relatively easy to sail. Not fun,
but easy.
MTVNewsGuy
(Cris Pavloff)wrote:
<<Here's the Thing --> the Tempo is not the worst baord ever. But it
couple hundred bucks because it is relatively easy to sail. Not fun,
but easy. >>
Here's the thing...other people find the baord to be excellent. Fun. AND easy
to sail. Amazingly, those of us happy Tempo owners do not find our experience
of windsurfing diminished when we hop on that board instead of one of our
others. Many people like Mistral boards. Windsurfers I respect like them. I
think they're terrible, though. I'm not going to start telling people who like
them that they're wrong (who do I start with...Robbie?)
Michael
US5613
Seatrend, BIC, F2
WINDGODS
speaking as one who hates bic boards with a passion, i have to say that my
father's tempo has impressed me as a good convertable for it's vintage. it has
reasonable speed, good consistan jibing ability, a good amount of rocker and
it's width was ahead of it's time. if you can pick one up as a swap for a good
price go for it.
-shawn-
NLW TFW NM
What's this guy's problem?
Laurence Robinson wrote: "But it probably didnt cost much, that makes it crap."
Is he a troll, a joker, or worse? What mystery llllllORKS ...??
Mike \m/
NLW TFW NM
Claiming there is a worst board ever is as meaningless as saying there is a
best board, and we KNOW that's not possible.
It all depends on the criteria, which are too complex and subjective.
Andrew Ronnau
NLW TFW NM <nlwt...@aol.com> wrote about the original
no nose board that really had NO NOSE:
> But if a rider managed to avoid snaring a bathtub full of chop with the
nose,
> he encountered its other endearing trait: Most big gusts just knocked the
thing
> sideways a lane or two. Your wake looked like a California freeway after
***
> THE BIG ONE***. If that didn't absolutely blow you up, the next gust or
piece
> of chop did.
Why did it behave that way in big gusts?
What is it about the front of a board that keeps it tracking
straight and true?
Andrew
Laurence Robinson
--Mike
"But it probably didnt cost much, that makes it crap."
It was Sarcasm, directed at Kit snobs.
Im sorry that you misunderstood, it was part of a long thread of messages that
were reacting to a guy who had voted Bic Tempo as worst board. Most of the
reaction was from Tempo owners who had praised the board and were searching for
a reason as to why the guy had slammed it. My comment was an attempt at humour.
Should we not at least attempt to be humourous in discussion? Let's face it
this is hardly a deadly serious newsgroup.
Laurence Robinson
Robert Butterick
Sorry to wade in but I have a possible entry. The O'Brien Elite with
the stock fin and a 6m sail. I could NEVER get the thing to track
straight, even downwind. I only tried it once and that was enough. I
generally believe that the trouble is the LOOSE NUT ON THE BOOMS when it
comes to "BAD" boards.
Steady wind....
Cookieman
Peter Watkinson wrote:
>
> pav...@nospam.ibm.net (Cris Pavloff) wrote:
>
> >Both sides of the picture have to be investigated.
> >
> >My Vote For the biggest waste of plastic, sailng time, space, and
> >everything else:
> >
> >
> >the bic Tempo --> a total pig, slow, can't turn, rides nose high.
> >
> >Yuck. Don't buy it. If you own it, sacrifice to the wind gods
> >immediately.
>
> anything by Mistral
>
> yuuuuuchh..
>
> Peter Watkinson
> pe...@peterw.demon.co.uk
> http://www.peterw.demon.co.uk/
Robert Butterick
Mike,
Thank you, that was way too funny. Even tho u have 2 and 4 cycle
tendencies, u still can tell a story like a southerner. Besides, there
is truth in your posts.
NLW TFW NM wrote:
>
> I don't think anybody can top this worst board ever candidate. It's not a
> mainstream board, so it has an unfair advantage. But here goes.
>
> Imagine a board that sails so poorly that advanced sailors can't sail it 500
> meters without crashing. Several experts tried, and only one was able to get it
> across the Columbia dry, little more than a km at that point, in nice 4.7
> winds. It was so BAD that magazine testers lined up on shore to watch as we
> took bets on who could sail it across without wiping out.
>
> Its problem was that it was the original no-nose board. I mean it HAD NO NOSE.
> They chopped roughly two feet of its damned nose, right square across, then
> faired the stump into the board beautifully. After all, who needs the front of
> the board when planing? So now you have no deck to speak of in front of the
> mast -- just an 18"-wide squared-off nose and then water. Less swing weight,
> less aerodynamic drag, lower weight. Great concept -- at Islamorada in the
> Florida Keys.
>
> But the rest of the world has something different, something dangerous, a
> monster that reaches up to grab this true NO-nose board and yank it towards --
> hell, damned near TO -- the core of the earth ... with the rider still hooked
> in and doing 30 knots.
>
> It's called CHOP, and this board had no CONCEPT of how to deal with it. We're
> not talking mere pearling here; we're talking actual pearl-DIVING. We're
> talking instantaneous 90-degree turns towards the opposite side of the earth
> with no apparent speed loss. I mean before the driver could even finish the
> "Oh" in "Oh Shit", he was inflated with water from his head to his toes. One
> test rider came back up with the bends. Watchers on shore began yelling "Dive!
> Dive! Dive!" as soon as a new sucker got onto a plane, then a perfectly
> coordinated chorus of "aOOOOOOOga" at the first hint of white water at the
> board's nose .... er, plow.
>
> But if a rider managed to avoid snaring a bathtub full of chop with the nose,
> he encountered its other endearing trait: Most big gusts just knocked the thing
> sideways a lane or two. Your wake looked like a California freeway after ***
> THE BIG ONE***. If that didn't absolutely blow you up, the next gust or piece
> of chop did.
>
> There should have been a big, red, bold warning stenciled on the deck:
> ***CAUTION: Operator must wear full motocross gear".
>
> Finally Les Appel tiptoed up to the board, got his weight back to raise the
> nose way up, and cautiously sailed it CLEAR ACROSS THE RIVER, did a tail-sunk
> pivot jibe, and got it back across dry. We bowed to him -- and threw his dry
> butt into the water.
>
> And that was the last time we ever DREAMED of getting that board in the water.
>
> Steer-wrestling at 30 knots boat speed ain't windsurfing.
>
> Oh, yeah; It was called the Stealth. Probably a government project.
>
Laurence Robinson
In article <19980212024...@ladder03.news.aol.com>, NLW TFW NM
<nlwt...@aol.com> writes
>Claiming there is a worst board ever is as meaningless as saying there is a
>best board, and we KNOW that's not possible.
>
>It all depends on the criteria, which are too complex and subjective.
>
>Never Leave Wind To Find Wind
-- Well put. hopefully you will have rapped that meaningless thread.
Laurence Robinson
MTVNewsGuy
Laurence Robinson wrote <<it was Sarcasm, directed at Kit snobs.>>
There's a great deal of self-congratulatory disdain in this newsgroup for
people who use new gear. What is this intended to accomplish? What's wrong
with using the latest gear? There may have been a few that I've missed, but
I've personally NEVER seen postings from mindless over-consuming "dudes"
advocating the idea that you have to have the latest ANYTHING to be able to
sail in top form (or even to be cool). But there's plenty of postings from
folks who are into ringing everything they can get out of old gear (which is
obviously cool...I don't know a soul who thinks otherwise) who are taking time
to belittle and discourage people who express an interest in the latest gear.
There used to be a lot more discussion of new designs of boards, sails, fins
etc. here that I think have been driven away. Not everyone is up for the
judgement and ridicule of opinion that others of us are comfortable with. For
years I've been telling every sailor I know about this newsgroup and how great
an asset it is to windsurfing, but I'm starting to feel that it's become a club
instead of a community.
Certainly there are people who have more money than they have time to sail.
One of my best friends is such a windsurfer. He's not a snob at all, but he's
looking for every advantage he can get short of abandoning his family and/or
job, so when he replaces a piece of gear, he buys appropriate top of the line
stuff. Not every year (more like every 3-4 years) but he won't have anything
to do with swapmeets or last year's models. So last season he was on the
water on a brand new North/Seatrend/Fiberspar/True Ames fantasy rig hitting
only about 2/3rds of his jibes. To read a lot of the conversation here, he
doesn't merit the equipment he has unless he can pass you on the water and jibe
better than you.
If I could afford to replace my most-used sails every year, I would, (instead
of waiting until they aren't worth repairing any more, and then phoning and
emailing across the country looking for deals on last year's model.) And I
want to hear every conversation about the 1998 boards (in case I get to buy one
in 1999 or 2000, or get a promotion.) I'll need to replace my Tempo (of
course) after this season. If I buy the latest from F2 I'm a bozo, but if I
get an old Tiga I'll be okay with you? That's ridiculous.
For all the healthy criticism of the magazines in this Newsgroup, we're going
to start driving people back to them as the only source of discourse on new
equipment.
Michael
US5613
P.S. Laurence Robinson, this was not directed at you as an individual...I've
been thinking about this for a long time...I only used your comment to launch
my post.
P.S.S. I LOVE old gear (fiberglass masts, tie-on booms and football fins
excepted), and the sailors who tear up the water on antiques. And my Tempo
doesn't go until repairing it is impractical!
NLW TFW NM
RE:"Why did it behave that way in big gusts?"
I don't know. We didn't analyze it; we just laughed at it. Perhaps it had no
vee and no well-defined rails -- nothing to help tracking. Perhaps it was all a
planform problem. Not enough fin. Loading the upwind rail while fighting for
balance, thus raising the downwind rail so it just tried to plane sideways. It
was almost instantaneous. The closest I've come to the same lane-changing
sensation was the first Bic Saxo; it did the same thing when overpowered in a
gust.
Re:"What is it about the front of a board that keeps it tracking straight and
true?"
In general, some rail tuck up front at least tends to PREVENT or REDUCE the
attempts of chop to throw the nose off track. But since a normal board tracks
fine with the nose largely out of the water, they don't DEPEND on a nose just
to track; the nose just shouldn't do any harm.
But if you just saw a board off about where its scoop, or nose rocker, begins,
and bevel the blunt edge up to the top deck, any chop over about 5"-6" starts
grabbing at the nose. Something knee-high, and ya better be wearing SCUBA gear,
'cause you ain't getting another breath of air for a while.
When Mike Waltze ( I think that's who it was) sailed that door, you can bet he
kept the nose up.
TomBuckOb2
>Should we not at least attempt to be humourous in discussion? Let's face it
>this is hardly a deadly serious newsgroup.
<sarcasm on> if you think this is a serious newsgroup you should see
rec.skiing.alpine <sarcasm off>
NLW TFW NM
Re:" But there's plenty of postings from folks who are into ringing everything
they can get out of old gear (which is obviously cool...I don't know a soul who
thinks otherwise"
I know scores of sailors (as well as pseudo-sailors) who HAVE to have the very
latest gear. Many who can't afford it and/or sail only a few days a year buy
all new stuff every year. One doctor here "sells" away his "old" stuff -- last
year's -- for 10-20 cents on the dollar.
RE:"To read a lot of the conversation here, he doesn't merit the equipment he
has unless he can pass you on the water and jibe better than you."
You're gonna find gear snobs and skill snobs on forums on about any sport you
can imagine. This forum is about the most polite forum I've found on ANY topic,
let alone sports. To appreciate this forum, one simply has to take a deep
breath, chase the kids out of the room, and tune into the many forums on
powered toys, dogs, even family finance. We've had a small handful of aggro
snobs here, but they're rare and don't stick around for long once they realize
we're no fun -- that we aren't going to play attitude games.
Mark Kedrowski
Most of the time when a board does that, you've got the mast in the
wrong track position. It's hard to describe how this happens without drawing
diagrams for you. If you've got to little fin for the board, the whole thing
will slide, and if you have the right fin just the nose will slide, turning
you into dead-meat. Usually you have to be going slow (barely planing) or
EXTREMELY fast for either to happen. This is in addition to the possibility
of spinning out, not the same as.
BTW, the front of the board has NOTHING to do with keeping a board tracking
straight, as far as the water is concerned. It does help keep the board
tracking vertically. e.g. No-nose noards track better through the wind
vertically moving forward due to reduced windage, maintaining a better and
more constant angle-of-attack. If you're going REALLY slow, then the front
of the board will help you track (how much depends on the board), but then,
of course, you're going really slow...
One you're flying on the tail of a board the only thing that keeps you
tracking correctly is your balance of the sail over the fin, and the trim
angle of both. The rails on the tail only help you break tension better.
Rocker shape and vee will affect speed and tracking (but only in the back
half or less while fully powered) but the merits of either are debatable.
Ever see a downhill skier's skis fish area looking out of control, because
they're so flat? flat is fast. Vee is slow, especially on water. Shapers put
the vee in ONLY so you don't EXPLODE in the turns.
IMHO, and practical experience...
----------------------------------------
Mark Kedrowski
US-0000 Mille Lacs Crossing Champion 1996, 1997
Roger Nightingale
Michael -
I have to admit that I find it a little irritating to see intermediate sailors
continually turning over gear, but not because I'm a retro snob. It's because I
think there is no better way to flatten out your learning curve than buying the
latest and greatest every year.
In my humble opinion, windsurfing is a vey delicate balance of actions and
reactions.; therefore, I think of it as a dance and the gear as your partner. In
order to dance well, you need to have a fairly intimate knowledge of how your
partner responds. This can only come with time. Everytime I change a fin, sail, or
(when absolutely necessary) a board, I spend a couple months to a year (for a
board) figuring it all out again. I got a brand new epoxy sandwich "fansasy" wave
machine 2 years ago and spent much of that season lamenting the passing of my beat
to shit 1986 glass board. Of course, my new Rutger and I are now inseparable, but
it took awhile. Knowing this, I find it very frustrating to see intermediates turn
their gear over every year or 2. I think everyone should go out and get the best of
everything that they can afford, but your friend is never gonna get to 90% unless
he sticks with his gear (all of it) for a few years.
Of course, I could be completely wrong.
Roger
MTVNewsGuy wrote:
>
>
> Certainly there are people who have more money than they have time to sail.
> One of my best friends is such a windsurfer. He's not a snob at all, but he's
> looking for every advantage he can get short of abandoning his family and/or
> job, so when he replaces a piece of gear, he buys appropriate top of the line
> stuff. Not every year (more like every 3-4 years) but he won't have anything
> to do with swapmeets or last year's models. So last season he was on the
> water on a brand new North/Seatrend/Fiberspar/True Ames fantasy rig hitting
> only about 2/3rds of his jibes. To read a lot of the conversation here, he
MTVNewsGuy
I agree with everything you say. My complaint is about an atmosphere that I
feel discourages many people from participating in the Newsgroup.
Michael
US5613
MTVNewsGuy
nlwtfwnm wrote:
<<We've had a small handful of aggro snobs here, but they're rare and don't
stick around for long once they realize we're no fun -- that we aren't going to
play attitude games.>>
My point is that there ARE attitude games being played. And it's no fun for
some people who are not snobs, but who have questions and interests about new
gear that they see draw disapproval and so keep silent. They don't want to
have an opinion tussle, they just want to discuss, and if they have to choose
they'd rather pass. Not everyone enjoys (or is even willing to endure) an
arguement or public criticism.
<<I know scores of sailors (as well as pseudo-sailors)...>>
What's a pseudo-sailor? That's an elitist judgement. Are we going to have
criteria for determining if someone is a "real" windsurfer? In my mind I've
been a real windsurfer for six years...since the day I started...I wonder how
many of my years would pass your standards. I've never broken a mast...does
that mean I'm not a real windsurfer? But wait...I've duck-jibed in
Hatteras...does that get me in the club? At the end of my very first DAY
standing on a board (a genuine Windsurfer(tm) thank god...what
credibility...maybe I'll go to heaven) a bona fide Equipment Snob came up to me
and happily said that I was obviously a real windsurfer, because I walked out
of the water bleeding from various arm and leg impacts with a big grin on my
face. That hotrod "dude" made me feel welcome.
And about those windsurfers whose mindsets (by your judgement or mine) are
wrong...do you think they're going to get enlightened if they are made to feel
unwelcome within the online windsurfing community? I'm all for challenging a
bozo on his or her nonsense, but there's no room for breathe in here for a lot
of people.
For all the well reasoned criticism leveled in this newsgroup against the
magazines, I feel that anyone who is interested in discourse about the latest
equipment is being driven back to those 'zines by the retro-mob "attitude
game". In particularly for those who post frequently in here, we can take some
responsibility for making this a hospitable venue. That's what I'm aiming for
in this thread.
Michael
US5613
sailquik (Roger Jackson)
>One you're flying on the tail of a board the only thing that keeps you
>tracking correctly is your balance of the sail over the fin, and the trim
>angle of both.
Mark: Peter Thommen had something interesting to say on this subject during
one of his talks in Hatteras last fall.
He said that the board is simply "the big expensive piece of plastic that
connects the sail to the fin."
He said this somewhat in jest, but if you think about it he's absolutely
right.
Sure he's one of the best shapers in the world, and does all kinds of
magic making this piece of plastic go over the water better, track better,
be looser etc, but the board is still just the link from the rig to the
fin.
He really cracked the crowsd up when someone asked him to explain all the
little shaping nuances of the bottom shape on a brand new F2 277 Ride He
sitting in front of him. He points at it and says "This"?? "Oh, it's a
piece of plastic!" Then someone really smart asked about the deck layout
and he was all ready for them "Other side of the same piece of plastic".
later
sailquik (Roger Jackson) US 3704 |Ph#in MD 301-872-9459
F2/North Sails/ True Ames/Rainbow|Ph#in NC 919-995-3204
US Sail Lvl 1 WS Instructor
sailquik (Roger Jackson)
> If I buy the latest from F2 I'm a bozo, but if I get an old Tiga I'll be okay with you? .
So, as the resident F2 tech head (I'll admit to that, at least) I'm now a
"BOZO". NOT!!!
Bozo's are those sailors who end up on "Bozo Beach" regardless of the kit
they're on. You know, Bozo beach, that downwind shoreline where the "walk
of shame" starts. Most sailing sites site have a beach or area like this.
Hey, bring on yourTempos, Tigas, fibergalss masts (especially Ampro greys)
baggy old sails, etc
.My Peter Thommen designed 305/285/270/260 and 277 Ride boards. Larry
Herbig designed IQ3D race sails, and good ol' Roger will be glad to show
you who the "real" bozos are.
While you're still puffing and panting from carrying all that old "HEAVY"
but "WAY COOL" kit from the car to the water, while worrying about which
bit or piece will break/snap/rip/ding next, I'll be out there, jammin'
along at around 1.5 x windspeed.
C'Ya there!
>
>For all the healthy criticism of the magazines in this Newsgroup, we're going
>to start driving people back to them as the only source of discourse on new
>equipment.
>
>Michael
>US5613
>
>P.S. Laurence Robinson, this was not directed at you as an individual...I've
>been thinking about this for a long time...I only used your comment to launch
>my post.
>
>P.S.S. I LOVE old gear (fiberglass masts, tie-on booms and football fins
>excepted), and the sailors who tear up the water on antiques. And my Tempo
>doesn't go until repairing it is impractical!
>
>
>
sailquik (Roger Jackson) US 3704 |Ph#in MD 301-872-9459
NLW TFW NM
Re:" Rocker shape and vee will affect speed and tracking:
If that Stealth board had any rocker or vee. it certainly wasn't obvious. Its
nose was sawed off about where its nose rocker would have begun.
Re:" Vee is slow, especially on water. Shapers put the vee in ONLY so you don't
EXPLODE in the turns."
And to protect the rider's teeth. I NEVER met a flat-bottomed board I enjoyed.
What good is speed if the driver can't see because his eyeballs shattered?
NLW TFW NM
Re:" Everytime I change a fin, sail, or (when absolutely necessary) a board, I
spend a couple months to a year (for a board) figuring it all out again."
That's one of the fallacies and pitfalls of magazine board tests. At best, each
tester might get a couple of hours on a board, maybe even a few hours. At
worst, it's 20 minutes and write it up. No U.S. mag is exempt from that
prospect if the boards outnumber the windy hours. And with several scores of
boards to test, that's always possible. It has happened to both U.S. testing
mags.
RE:"What's a pseudo-sailor? That's an elitist judgement."
No, it's a carefully chosen, objective description taken right from the
dictionary. Pseudo: "sham, false, pretended, counterfeit". i.e., the people who
buy the booty, talk the talk, strap it on top of their car .... and never sail.
Literally never get their gear in the water at the worst, or at least never get
it wet for less than 3 or few hours a year, yet still boast about being a
"windsurfer". The ones who deliberately buy the stuff for show only.
Steven Swann
mtvne...@aol.com (MTVNewsGuy) wrote:
>There's a great deal of self-congratulatory disdain in this newsgroup for
>people who use new gear. What is this intended to accomplish? What's wrong >with using the latest gear? >
>Michael
>US5613
Right on, Michael!! I reckon its just jealousy - if these people can't
have it (the latest gear), why should anyone else? I don't see why anyone
should be making judgements regarding another's gear or technique or
haircut etc. anyway, as long as we are all having fun. Isn't that the
aim?
Perhaps it is an invasion of the minimalist surfing atitude (not that I'm
knocking it - in its place - which is surfing) that decrees the more retro
the better? Could account for the number of "dudes" flaming anything to
do with technology. What is a "dude" anyway?!?!?
Steven Swann
M. Soos
Steven Swann wrote:
> Right on, Michael!!
I agree with you totally. Have some friends who don't have the money to
buy new staff. They are sailing old Hifly-s and a Tempo with Gun Sails.
They have always problems with their accessoires. Everytime brakes
something, so they can't sail, while I'm already on the water.
Miklos Soos
TomBuckOb2
>various arm and leg impacts with a big grin on my
>face. That hotrod "dude" made me feel welcome.
>
>And about those windsurfers whose mindsets (by your judgement or mine) are
>wrong...do you think they're going to get enlightened if they are made to
>feel
>unwelcome within the online windsurfing community? I'm all for challenging a
>bozo on his or her nonsense, but there's no room for breathe in here for a
>lot
>of people.
>
>For all the well reasoned criticism leveled in this newsgroup against the
>magazines, I feel that anyone who is interested in discourse about the latest
>equipment is being driven back to those 'zines by the retro-mob "attitude
>game". In particularly for those who post frequently in here, we can take
>some
>responsibility for making this a hospitable venue. That's what I'm aiming
>for
>in this thread.
>
>Michael
>US5613
How much more hospitable can a venue be? And there is tons of discussion on
new gear and the merits of one brand Vs. another. If anyone is intimidated
from learning - asking about new gear here - they won't ask about it anywhere.
Besides, nobody thinks they are a "gear snob" they only think other people are
- so nobody actually takes offense to any of the gear snob comments.
I think you are wrong about this entire thread and will be happy to argue about
it.
(I was a gear snob last year but not for the prior 8 years)
Tom O'Brien - Chicago
Laurence Robinson
In article <19980212173...@ladder02.news.aol.com>, MTVNewsGuy
<mtvne...@aol.com> writes
> Laurence Robinson wrote <<it was Sarcasm, directed at Kit snobs.>>
>
>
--MTV Guy,
Fair point, perhaps the disdain for new kit that crops up again and again in
this newsgroup is a little onesided. If you looked at my kit you might call me
a hypocrite.
Maybe it is not so much a reaction against the people with the new kit but a
reaction against the industry. In Europe the magazines are chocca with test
after test after test. The message being given to the uninitiated is buy new if
you want to go faster, crack more gybes etc. It amazes me how the test reports
can often come to such grand conclusions about such small changes.
This newsgroup is one place that is not under the censorship of an editor who is
always looking over his shoulder at the manufacturers who pay for all that
advertising.
One aspect of new kit that has found consistent favour in the newsgroup is the
new breed of early planing 3m+ boards. This praise is not so obvious in the
magazines because they give praise to almost anything new.
The custom board also gets a much fairer hearing in the newsgroup.
I hope the overall message in the newsgroup encourages us all to take a look at
the bigger picture. I find it fascinating, faced with the choice I would
sooner log on here than pick up another magazine.
Laurence Robinson
Sailut
I have also been on both sides if this. Years ago I had all the time in
the world but no money. I survived on the gear I had for a long time. I
learned to get planing, jybe and waterstart all on older used equipment.
Now I have enough money to buy new equipment more often and I like the
fine tuning of equipment almost as much as sailing. I remember the first
time I got on a new '96 Prisma, the feeling of overall power and the
great range was the best thing I had ever felt. Last year I bought a new
F2 277 Ride, The way this thing turns is awsome.
Maybe this makes me a snob, but I am still usually one of the first on
the water and last off. After ten years of sailing the thing I love
about sailing is that I know I will never master all aspects of this
sport. There is always going to be another challenge around the corner,
no matter what kind of gear I use.
Marty
Bob Jacobson
Steven Swann wrote:
As in any athletic endeavor, what is most admired in windsurfing is
skill. People who spend more time evaluating the performance of their
equipment than their own performance are seen as being not very serious.
Or shall I say, not sharing the same aesthetic. Sort of like people who
are very into high-end high fidelity equipment, but don't have any taste
in music.
None of this should imply that equipment is not important. Bad gear can
hold back a sailor at practically any level. But most of the gear
produced in the last five years has adequate performance for honing
one's skills. The problem is, it takes a while to sort out new gear.
Unless one has an opportunity to spend a lot of time on the water,
changing gear too often can impede a sailor's development.
Having said all that, there's nothing wrong with liking new toys. Or
keeping up with the latest devlopments. I'm kind of skeptical about this
AVS thing, but I think it is great that people continue to inovate. And
the new head designs on raace sails reflect some thoughts I've had for
some time. I must admit I'm eager to try one. So I enjoy and encourage
equipment oriented posts. Since I can't afford to buy this stuff, it is
good to read of other's experince with it.
clive
> RE:"What's a pseudo-sailor? That's an elitist
judgement."
>
> No, it's a carefully chosen, objective description taken
right from the
> dictionary. Pseudo: "sham, false, pretended,
counterfeit". i.e., the people who
> buy the booty, talk the talk, strap it on top of their
car .... and never sail.
> Literally never get their gear in the water at the worst,
or at least never get
> it wet for less than 3 or few hours a year, yet still
boast about being a
> "windsurfer". The ones who deliberately buy the stuff for
show only.
Mike, if you want a term that's more common, call those
people 'posers'!
It's the proper label.
Clive
sorry if this gets multi-posted...
RJ Associates
Michael:
From my observations, the disdainful posts are from infrequent
contributors. If you look at the content of the posts from the 5 to 7
most frequent contributors, I believe that each of these persons does
purchase new gear every so often and sell the old stuff to others at
swap meets. I have not noted that the persons offering the most
frequent and better advice to be disdainful of having good gear. In
fact, it's more the opposite.
I do recall the "gear snob" thread a while ago, and that one kind of got
under my skin a bit too. If a person has the dough to purchase new
stuff, why should there be some kind of code / advice against that? But
I also agree with one of the other posts today that you really have to
look at the sailor and not the gear at some point, so churning gear for
an intermediate (like me) is probably a waste of money and learning. But
getting new or near new gear is advice that I think should be offered
more often.
Regarding the "go to a swap meet advice" that we see regularly, I
question the validity of this advice on occasion. Unless a person
really knows what they are looking for, it is quite possible that they
will get the wrong stuff, and the result will be pure frustration.
Personally I certainly don't want to go out and buy a 10 year old used
board just because it is cheap. First, given that if you buy new or
near new sails which are designed with different centers of effort,
there is probably a bit of an incompatibility between board and sail
design.
Second, if you did, you should probably have copies of gear reviews to
figure out what you are buying. Pretty tough to do if you don't know
much about the sport. It's unlikely the seller is going to recommend
that you stay away from his board or sails even if he knows it is not
compatible with the potential buyers skills. I'm not discounting the
value of swap meets, but one should add "buyer beware" advice regarding
this strategy of getting gear.
I have had more trouble attempting to learn this sport with old or bad
equipment that I think buying good new or near new equipment is advice
that should be posted more often. (Once I demo'd good stuff properly
set up, the sport actually worked the way it was supposed to.)
In general, I think this newsgroup is one of the most informative
sources of info for those of us who are not surrounded by a world cup
environment (ie, racers, coaches, etc. - the Maui or Gorge type scene).
Compare the info you get from reading magazines to the quality and depth
of the info in the newsgroup. No comparison for me.
In my opinion, the general tone is quite positive, but like any gear
intensive sport, it does become pretty technical. Communication can
therefore be kind of combative, but so what, a bit of spice is okay
too.
Plus, we do have freedom of speach, but I doubt that people are actually
turned off by its general tone enbough that they stop reading. It may
be a bit boring at times and it could use a bit of humor. (Who wrote
that funny survey anyway? that was really good.)
I think that the flaming that goes on here is pretty tame and in many
cases well-deserved. While I think it is neat to watch videos of wave
riders, I think it's inappropriate for some hot shot to piss on the
group cause he's so great. Belittling Chicago because one surfs Waddell
is a real sign of immaturity if you ask me. Overall, I like the group
as it is, but some humor would be appreciated.
My $2,
Rich
MTVNewsGuy wrote:
>
> Laurence Robinson wrote <<it was Sarcasm, directed at Kit snobs.>>
>
> There's a great deal of self-congratulatory disdain in this newsgroup for
> people who use new gear. What is this intended to accomplish? What's wrong
> with using the latest gear? There may have been a few that I've missed, but
> I've personally NEVER seen postings from mindless over-consuming "dudes"
> advocating the idea that you have to have the latest ANYTHING to be able to
> sail in top form (or even to be cool). But there's plenty of postings from
> folks who are into ringing everything they can get out of old gear (which is
> obviously cool...I don't know a soul who thinks otherwise) who are taking time
> to belittle and discourage people who express an interest in the latest gear.
> There used to be a lot more discussion of new designs of boards, sails, fins
> etc. here that I think have been driven away. Not everyone is up for the
> judgement and ridicule of opinion that others of us are comfortable with. For
> years I've been telling every sailor I know about this newsgroup and how great
> an asset it is to windsurfing, but I'm starting to feel that it's become a club
> instead of a community.
>
> Certainly there are people who have more money than they have time to sail.
> One of my best friends is such a windsurfer. He's not a snob at all, but he's
> looking for every advantage he can get short of abandoning his family and/or
> job, so when he replaces a piece of gear, he buys appropriate top of the line
> stuff. Not every year (more like every 3-4 years) but he won't have anything
> to do with swapmeets or last year's models. So last season he was on the
> water on a brand new North/Seatrend/Fiberspar/True Ames fantasy rig hitting
> only about 2/3rds of his jibes. To read a lot of the conversation here, he
> doesn't merit the equipment he has unless he can pass you on the water and jibe
> better than you.
>
> If I could afford to replace my most-used sails every year, I would, (instead
> of waiting until they aren't worth repairing any more, and then phoning and
> emailing across the country looking for deals on last year's model.) And I
> want to hear every conversation about the 1998 boards (in case I get to buy one
> in 1999 or 2000, or get a promotion.) I'll need to replace my Tempo (of
> course) after this season. If I buy the latest from F2 I'm a bozo, but if I
> get an old Tiga I'll be okay with you? That's ridiculous.
MTVNewsGuy
TomBuckOb2 wrote:
<<How much more hospitable can a venue be? And there is tons of discussion on
new gear and the merits of one brand Vs. another. If anyone is intimidated
from learning - asking about new gear here - they won't ask about it
anywhere.>>
I don't think that's true, Tom. I'm getting a lot of email privately from
people who agree with me. I've also received a few from folks that disagree
but my point was and is that this environment could be and should be a lot
better. It's true that compared to other newsgroups this is tame, but then
compared to most activities Windsurfing (outside of the shotgun zone) attracts
a very well-mannered crowd. We can do better.
Michael
US5613
GMWood
Couldn't let this pass by, Roger, you're way off track today! You see, Bozo's
are generally in political life, I have only met a few in windsurfing, like one
in Trinidad who borrowed some poor guy's board "for just two quick runs to try
it out" and stayed out for two hours. I have to hope that they are not ones
with attitudes that "Bozo Beaches and Walk's of Shame" exist. Equipment does
not matter, trying and having fun (even sometimes not having fun but just
doing) matters. I have NEVER felt shame at walking back, and always feel I
learned something at those sessions that were over my current level. Actually
I'm still stoked at the 3.4 sess last Tuesday, 8 foot shorebreak, 15' rollers
offshore. Yeah, got trashed a few times, walked back, with a major smile on.
NO shame, NO bozo!!!
I have good gear, '94-97 sails, '93 thru '97 masts, booms, and bases, I make a
board or two each year. Because that's what I WANT to spend my labour time in
exchange for, it helps my "time sailing to pleasure derived" coefficient. FOR
ME. Others chose what they want. And if I have good stuff and STILL walk
occasionally, I'm no more/less a bozo. So next time you happen to see someone
walking back, offer to help and get to know them, because they are out there
doing it (which is why they are walking back in the first place.) Maybe by
this approach they'll learn some from you, have more fun and be less likely to
walk in those particular conditions next time. And reserve your thinking about
Bozo's for Independent Council's and Senator's named Thompson from Tennessee!!
Geoff
(on Homemade Boards and Windwings
in lovely Sidney BC, gale warning posted
again for tomorrow, 4th this week!!!)
>So, as the resident F2 tech head (I'll admit to that, at least) I'm now a
>"BOZO". NOT!!!
>
> Bozo's are those sailors who end up on "Bozo Beach" regardless of the kit
>they're on. You know, Bozo beach, that downwind shoreline where the "walk
>of shame" starts. Most sailing sites site have a beach or area like this.
>
>Hey, bring on yourTempos, Tigas, fibergalss masts (especially Ampro greys)
>baggy old sails, etc
>
>.My Peter Thommen designed 305/285/270/260 and 277 Ride boards. Larry
>Herbig designed IQ3D race sails, and good ol' Roger will be glad to show
>you who the "real" bozos are.
>
>While you're still puffing and panting from carrying all that old "HEAVY"
>but "WAY COOL" kit from the car to the water, while worrying about which
>bit or piece will break/snap/rip/ding next, I'll be out there, jammin'
>along at around 1.5 x windspeed.
>C'Ya there!
>
>
>sailquik (Roger Jackson) US 3704 |Ph#in MD 301-872-9459
Charlie Escher
Mark Kedrowski wrote:
> Rocker shape and vee will affect speed and tracking (but only in the back
> half or less while fully powered) but the merits of either are debatable.
> Ever see a downhill skier's skis fish area looking out of control, because
> they're so flat? flat is fast. Vee is slow, especially on water. Shapers put
> the vee in ONLY so you don't EXPLODE in the turns.
>
Ever see how a ski tech tunes skis for a downhill?With more bevel than
for any other event.A dead flat ski is very slow.
Ever looked at the sponsons on an unlimited hydroplane?Vee is critical
for control at high speeds; out of control = slow.
If you really think (dead) flat rocker boards are fastest, have at it.
My experiences strongly suggest otherwise.Extremes in shape tend to be
slow, so try "nearly flat is fast", I don't think you'll find much
disagreement to that.
As always, just my 0.02 ...
______________________________________________
Charlie Escher // Beautiful Bingen, Washington
______________________________________________
Eyes4Hire
Michael (MTVNewsGuy) wrote:
> Laurence Robinson wrote <<it was Sarcasm, directed at Kit snobs.>>
>There's a great deal of self-congratulatory disdain in this newsgroup for
>people who use new gear. What is this intended to accomplish? What's wrong
>with using the latest gear? There may have been a few that I've missed, but
>I've personally NEVER seen postings from mindless over-consuming "dudes"
>advocating the idea that you have to have the latest ANYTHING to be able to
>sail in top form (or even to be cool). But there's plenty of postings from
>folks who are into ringing everything they can get out of old gear (which is
>obviously cool...I don't know a soul who thinks otherwise) who are taking
>time
>to belittle and discourage people who express an interest in the latest gear.
I suspected that Laurence's comment was stemmed from Bic's position in the
market since the poor evaluation of the Bic Tempo got this thread going. Bic
boards sell for $200 less than similar boards in the F2 or Mistral lines. I
have sailed Bics, F2s, and Mistrals, and find the Bics a great value. While I
don't see a lot open disdain for Bic on the newsgroup, you do get it on the
beach sometimes. It makes you wonder if some people assume their F2 or Mistral
is better only because they spent more money on it. Or is the Bic image
suffering because they share the brand name of the ball point pen produced by
their parent company. I don't have a problem with anyone who sails on any board
that makes them happy. I also don't have a problem with anyone who drives a
Porsche or a Lexus... unless they start acting like they are better than the
guy driving the Toyota or the Ford... then I think they probably do deserve to
be made fun of.
Peter
NLW TFW NM
Re:" perhaps the disdain for new kit that crops up again and again in this
newsgroup is a little onesided. "
Wow! Where have I been? I missed the disdain for new gear -- or old gear -- or
greeb gear. I see people objectively, sometimes even subjectively, expressing
pros and cons and personal preferences for old and new gear, but I missed the
disdain. Maybe it's mostly in the eyes of the reader.
I did see the ridiculous comment that all Mistrals suck, but merely considered
the source and ignored it.
Re:"The message being given [in European mags] to the uninitiated is buy new if
you want to go faster, crack more gybes etc. It amazes me how the test reports
can often come to such grand conclusions about such small changes."
It's not just the Euromags; "we" are guilty if that one, too. It's pretty
silly, especially when some new designs set us back a year or five.
Re:"The custom board also gets a much fairer hearing in the newsgroup."
Very true. The first year I tested with PWR, we had to damn near nail
production boards to expert testers' feet to force them to ride production
boards. That slowly changed as the testers got more professional about their
responsibilities.
Re:"I find it fascinating, faced with the choice I would sooner log on here
than pick up another magazine"
I have mixed feelings about that one. Pertaining to gear selection, mags MAY be
less influenced by individual preferences. The opinions printed in mags are the
consensus of several, maybe even many, testers' opinions. We don't see
individual contrary opinions of one tester, unless they're representative of a
significant minority.
On the forum, one can say, "All Mistrals suck" or "Plastic boards rule" or
"[insert board type -- race, wave, etc. -- here] boards [or sails] are the only
way to go, and some people actually take a person's word for it. While we
usually discuss such comments at revealing length, that's not always true. No
one, for example, has countered the "Mistral Sucks" proclamation, and some
newbie may actually believe that.
NLW TFW NM
Re:"Regarding the "go to a swap meet advice" that we see regularly, I
question the validity of this advice on occasion. Unless a person
really knows what they are looking for, it is quite possible that they
will get the wrong stuff, and the result will be pure frustration."
To mitigate that propensity (Wow!) our club staffs swap meets with identified
knowledgeable sailors to advise buyers on gear selection. We advise buyers to
consult more than one advisor to minimize the effect of individual biases, and
advisors eavesdrop on other advisors to make sure they counter the other
advisors' biases with their own biases.
This actually WORKS, because we are good friends and don't take this stuff too
seriously. The victim is the poor confuse buyer, but at least he's gotten SOME
help, and may even be able to sort it out.
RE:"Compare the info you get from reading magazines to the quality and depth
of the info in the newsgroup. No comparison for me."
I think there are tradeoffs. In a mag, testers and writers have sailed all the
gear being compared, and can, within biases, compare them knowledgeably. Here,
OTOH, when one guy says his Boogety board is the best and another says his
Whatsit's better, it comes down to who's the more convicing (or wind-starved)
writer. Not many forum members -- there are certainly exceptions -- have sailed
a large number of the boards and sails being discussed.
Re:"I think it's inappropriate for some hot shot to piss on the group cause
he's so great."
I've seen only a few do that here. One lasted only a few months here before he
went off and started his own windsurfing e-zine. A darned good e-zine, by and
large, but still in-yer-face. The other two seem to have faded and/or toned
down their antagonism once they saw how it was received.
clive
> RE:"What's a pseudo-sailor? That's an elitist
judgement."
>
> No, it's a carefully chosen, objective description taken
right from the
> dictionary. Pseudo: "sham, false, pretended,
counterfeit". i.e., the people who
> buy the booty, talk the talk, strap it on top of their
car .... and never sail.
> Literally never get their gear in the water at the worst,
or at least never get
> it wet for less than 3 or few hours a year, yet still
boast about being a
> "windsurfer". The ones who deliberately buy the stuff for
show only.
If you want a term that's more common, call those people
clive
TomBuckOb2
Michael
US5613 wrote
<heavy edit> this NG is not as hospitable as it could be and there is open
disdain for new gear <>
Do you have one example of a newbie being flamed? I have been mildly toasted,
but far from a newbie. I think we treat them very nicely. Besides, what is a
discussion all about if not a little give and take? I do not find the tone
here to be aggressive or offensive. Remarkably constructive.
On gear, I find lots of valuable discussion on new gear. Most of the
recommendations for people to buy used gear are to beginners or someone wanting
to try something for the first time (shortboard, wave sail, etc.). This IS a
solid recommendation and should not be confused with an experienced sailor
investigating and buying new gear - or used gear that they know will work for
them. Again, find me some examples which are otherwise.
Finally, nobody considers themself a gear snob. By definition it can ONLY be
someone else. So who is hut by a little gear snob bashing. <If you are a gear
snob and feel hurt, step forward now >>>
I got a lot of pleasure out of smoking past Cort Larned at a gybe clinic on 10
year old gear, but I was on a longboard and he was sinking. Still, it felt
good and played right into my anti-gear snob sensibility.
Anyway, I' m getting ready to upgrade everything this season so I can switch
sides and really be a gear snob - kinda looking forward to it - bring on the
carbon fiber.
The Dog
NLW TFW NM wrote:
[snip]
> On the forum, one can say, "All Mistrals suck" or "Plastic boards rule" or
> "[insert board type -- race, wave, etc. -- here] boards [or sails] are the only
> way to go, and some people actually take a person's word for it. While we
> usually discuss such comments at revealing length, that's not always true. No
> one, for example, has countered the "Mistral Sucks" proclamation, and some
> newbie may actually believe that.
1990 Mistral Screamers Rule... Heh heh heh heh heh
No They Don't, Ass Munch.
Shut Up, Butthead. They Rule. Mistral Rules. Tiga Rules.
F2 Rules... BIC Ru.... errr, BIC is pretty damn good. Heheh.
(How's that, Mike?) My old Screamer is still hanging in there.
And the custom boyz are having a hard time staying in front
of it... When they actually do get in front of it that is. ;-)
The most important thing is that it's still sound, easy to ride
and a hell of a lot of fun. Key word, "fun." Never lose sight
of the fact that this is a sport about having FUN. To hell with
what the butt monkeys "on the beach" think.
He said "Monkey." Hehehhehheheheh
Shut Up, Butthead.
[Sorry... It's been one of those weird days at work]
Later...
The Dog
Texas State Championships
April 4th & 5th, Lake Joe Pool, Dallas
http://web2.airmail.net/bcunning/txstate.htm
--
Brian "The Dog" Cunningham
signature under construction
Don't blame Alcatel, they didn't know.
Dog House: web2.airmail.net/bcunning
MTVNewsGuy
I'm not talking about newbies...everyone seems to be fine with newbies, because
they acknowledge their lower position in the pantheon of windsurfing. and
submit themselves to receive wisdom. But Tom, believe me, my mailbox has
receive plenty of email (thanks those of you who were supportive) from people
who think that have a point. And there have been a few suggestions that those
of us who post the most might try keeping quiet for a month or two, and let
some other voices ring out. Astonishingly, not everyone wants to hear from
the same few people on every aspect of the sport.
Michael
US5613
Brett
Right on !
MTVNewsGuy <mtvne...@aol.com> wrote in article
<19980212230...@ladder02.news.aol.com>...
> of the water bleeding from various arm and leg impacts with a big grin on
NLW TFW NM
I have a great deal of respect for Bic. They build a very broad line of boards,
they build a board just for beginners, they provide a good product for the
money, they built one of the first little production boards -- the Hip Hop --
even though boards that size have a much smaller market than bigger gear, and
their boards are pretty solid.
I personally think Mistal boards sail better, but then so do some $2,000
customs. As long as we know what we're getting, and pay the right price for it,
that's a good deal.
Snobs, and I see a lot of them, can just whine and boast and strut;
I'm goin' sailin'.
NLW TFW NM
With
"Vee is slow, especially on water. Shapers put the vee in ONLY so you don't
EXPLODE in the turns"
for any other event.A dead flat ski is very slow. Ever looked at the sponsons
on an unlimited hydroplane?Vee is critical for control at high speeds; out of
control = slow.
If you really think (dead) flat rocker boards are fastest, have at it.
we're mixing apples and tent pegs.
In the first post "flat" refers to lateral flatness -- vee vs no vee -- not the
degree of rocker. The second post uses "flat" to mean "no rocker".
Besides, vee is not slow if there's any chop. A little vee adds only a distant
decimal point to wetted surface, but goes a LONG way in boosting control and
comfort, which promote speed.
NLW TFW NM
Re:"there have been a few suggestions that those of us who post the most might
try keeping quiet for a month or two, and let some other voices ring out.
Astonishingly, not everyone wants to hear from the same few people on every
aspect of the sport."
Sorry, but the fact that some of us post often should have no bearing on
others' willingness to post. In particular, the ones who post the most are by
and large more constructive and objective than some of the more aggro and
attitudinal less frequent posters.
"Let others ring out"? No one's stopping them, and I've very seldom seen them
put down or criticized. If rational dialogues on technology or technique or
opinions scares people off, they'll come running back in gratitude as soon as
they drop in on the other 10,000 forums that are INFINITELY less civil. I've
been glad to see some new blood here recently, and glad it's still rational,
objective, non-posturing, non-aggressive, discourse rather than the blather I
see on other forums. 50-60-70 posts in one thread consisting of nothing but
name-calling -- in a FINANCIAL forum?
And anyone who bemoans the lack of humor here ... hasn't been here long.
OTOH, you will all get a break of anywhere from three to five months from that
NLWTFWNM motormouth, as soon as the Gorge warms up.
Problem solved.
Anonymous
TomBuckOb2
MTVNewsGuy Wrote:
> And there have been a few suggestions that those
>of us who post the most might try keeping quiet for a month or two, and let
>some other voices ring out.
>Astonishingly, not everyone wants to hear from
>the same few people on every aspect of the sport.
Astonishingly, by its very nature, a newsgroup is not a zero sum game. Anyone
can post as often as they like, and it has no effect on any other person's
ability to post.
I would be interested in seeing the supportive notes posted in the open (I
believe that you are getting them, just interested in their perspective) I'm
sure it will expand the discussion
JC106
I've lurked this group for years, and only recently started posting. I for
one, appreciate the frank and specific (and amazingly quick) responses that
I've had to my questions.
It must have something to do with the fact that we windsurfers are still a
"minority" in this country, and this brings out a comraderie that is seen in
few mainstream sports or sport newsgroups.
THINK WIND!
NLW TFW NM
Re:"I would be interested in seeing the supportive notes posted in the open (I
believe that you are getting them, just interested in their perspective) I'm
sure it will expand the discussion"
I'm sure many of us get e-mail questions and comments -- and make reponses --
that would make excellent forum springboards. I try to encourage e-mailers to
post their stuff on the forum if it's appropriate, for several reasons:
1. The forum needs more people, more topics, more opinions, and more volume.
2. I may know a lot about windsurfing, but then so do MANY others. And none of
us non-professionals is right all the time. The only ones who are inherently
right all the time, the professionals, pop up only once a month or so, because
they apparently have lives (Bruce, Ken, Dave, etc.)
3. I may also be WRONG on facts, and the group would be ONLY TOO HAPPY to
straighten me out. Justifiably, I should add. But if I'm wrong in an e-mail
response to an e-mail question, my BS gets no peer review.
4. I obviously have plenty of opinions, which may change but are never wrong,
by definition. But there are certainly other valid, correct opinions out there,
too, and every one has and deserves the same chance to voice their opinion.
5. People may disagree with others' opinions. That's not personal; it's just
life, and the basic nature of the concept of opinions.
The only caveat is that if one is too sensitive to subject his questions and
comments to peer review, maybe e-mail is the way to go. At most, that will
trigger only volley. An aggro poster that a few of us had chided "on the air"
and I recently had a lengthy, rational, objective discussion, and learned a lot
about each other's points of view. It may have been a little tense for some to
read, so maybe it was better done by e-mail. But neither of us took any
offense in it, as far as I know.
Some of us are touchy-feely types who consider ANY disagreement to be a FIGHT,
by definition, and who can't stand fighting. That's what makes the world go
around. I knew an Air Force lieutenant colonel who fell apart at the first sign
of disagreement. The SLIGHTEST sign of dischord, I mean even a "Well, I don't
think so", and he just forgot the mission and began pouting. Fortunately he was
sidetracked from command positions after that.
But in a forum that's no problem. If a touchy-feely person is offended by a
lively discussion, he can just stop reading it. Simple, and a broad menu for
everyone. There are plenty of outright, obscene, posturing, pointless, STUPID
flame wars on other forums like I've never seen on this forum; I've learned to
completely bypass any thread with more than about a dozen posts in other
forums. A thread's rationality half-life seems to be about 10 posts on ANY
forum about motorized objects, and I don't even want to CONTEMPLATE the NRA
forum, or rec.redneck.
Mike \m/
Mike
NLW TFW NM
RE:"1990 Mistral Screamers Rule... Heh heh heh heh heh
Shut Up, Butthead. They Rule. Mistral Rules. Tiga Rules.
Ever check out the forums on jetskis, cars, even life insurance? These guys
will go on for scores of posts like the Dog's funny example, but at max
obscenity, max offense, and incredible length -- and they're SERIOUS about it.
When some troll invades rec.Mustangs with a subject like "Fords Suck", people
actually RESPOND. and ANGRILY. ForEVER.
We're in a rarified atmosphere here, guys and gals.
Mike \m/
Dimitar Bojantchev
I'm sure that if the industry could catch the attention of the snobs and
drag them into this sport (like it happened in alpine skiing) then they'll
do it in a beat as that would simply mean lots of good business.
But it ain't so simple -- I'd have hard time picking another sport (other
than plain surfing perhaps) which is as void of snobbery as windsurfing.
In fact this sport is so utterly unforgiving towards snobbery of any kind
that I don't see anytime soon the hordes of soccer moms pulling up their
Volvos at the landing sites, nor the little Mathews and Patricks swapping
their soccer balls for windsurfing gear. This sport is simply too unsafe,
too demanding, too inconvenient, too hard core to offer shelter for snobs
and pretenders.
It also remains unclear also who are the snobs supposed to impress with
their latest equipment? The wave-experts who sleep in the van? Hm... It is
too apparent on the water who can sail and who cannot for one to get away
with mere acting.
I think that in the cases of stark disparity between one's latest equipment
and his sailing skills, there are some far more plausible explanations than
the harsh judgement of snobbery,
1) There're the real serious guys with unquestionable credentials who
truly need the latest equipment to stay competitive in regional races.
2) Many times beginners buy the newest stuff fully aware that they can't
master this equipment (not that many people short of the best have mastered
it really) -- I believe strongly that gainfully employed beginners should
not go to swap meets unless they are escorted by a knowledgeable guide and
are better off buying new stuff to grow into.
3) One obvious group are the frustrated sailors who tend to blame the
equipment for what's holding them back. That exists in very sport.
That's not snobbery. That's genuine, albeit misguided, desire to
improve. How can you resist an advertisement of the type: "now you can
jybe with the best" or "this board will make you a better sailor"?
4) Then there are some people who are infatuated with gadgets regardless
of what they are, they treat them as toys. As simple as that -- if someone
can spend mucho $$$$ on his stereo, truck, or Harley then why can't a
professional guy get something similar to Bjorn's sail? Treat these folks
as "connoisseurs of fine sails". I'm sure that all professional windsurfers
also like to monkey around with gadgets and try them out on the water.
But I can see where some of the snobbery charges may originate -- it is an
unfortunate reverse relationship between the time one spends to perfect
his recreational sailing skills and the resources he can allocate for
better equipment...
Maybe for this post to flourish it will need some more snobs who
can inject tons of cash into the industry -- and the competition and
volume will lead to reduced prices across the board.
Regs,
Dimitar
P.S. Still, I must admit that I'm somewhat hesitant to join something
like the USWA until I start pulling all my jybes flawlessly and can call
myself a true member of the community... :-)
--
===============================================================================
Dimitar Bojantchev dim...@pontix.com or dim...@best.com
Pontix Consulting, Inc. http://www.pontix.com/
Personal Info http://www.pontix.com/dimitar
Dimitar Bojantchev
CORRECTION:
>Maybe for this post to flourish it will need some more snobs who
----
"sport"
>can inject tons of cash into the industry -- and the competition and
>volume will lead to reduced prices across the board.
--
NLW TFW NM
Good idea, Dimitar, but the snobs came and went 8-12 years ago. They drove this
to become the world's fastest growing sport (or water sport, or frustrating
water sport, or expensive frustrating water sport for wealthy slender people
with SUVs, or whatever), then realized IT'S NOT AS SIMPLE AS IT LOOKS, and
bailed right about the time that 297 new windsurfing gear companies and 4,934
shops opened their doors.
Thus the decline in the sport, which many say saved it from self-destruction:
Where would we PUT another few million windsurfers? There just isn't ROOM for
them on Maui, on the Columbia (or at least the Columbia's parking lots), at
Bird Island, on the Bay (?), in the Delta, on Cheney, on Gaarda, etc.
Unless it implodes, I'm glad the industry did slack off. And as long as two
craftsmen remain to take my money for boards and sails, I'll survive. I'm not
sure some of those venues would have survived growth extrapolated from the 80s.
The Dog
NLW TFW NM wrote:
> Ever check out the forums on jetskis, cars, even life insurance? These guys
> will go on for scores of posts like the Dog's funny example, but at max
> obscenity, max offense, and incredible length -- and they're SERIOUS about it.
> When some troll invades rec.Mustangs with a subject like "Fords Suck", people
> actually RESPOND. and ANGRILY. ForEVER.
Ditto to anything firearms related... Go to tx.guns some time and
count the number of .UK addressed posters you see. I guess they
don't understand what "TX" means. My kill file is full of those
types.
> We're in a rarified atmosphere here, guys and gals.
That's because most of us don't really care what the next
boardhead thinks, as long as were getting some good sailing
in. Right, Mike? (Glad you enjoyed the other post)
I only remember one time when we had the invasion of jetski
types. And they left pretty quick cause they couldn't get a
rise out of us. [violin sounds]
Later...
The Dog
--
Texas State Campionships
April 3-5, Lake Joe Pool, Dallas
http://web2.airmail.net/bcunning/txstate.htm
---
Brian "The Dog" Cunningham
Spammers are getting smarter so
To reply, decode the line below
bcunning at airmail dot net
http://web2.airmail.net/bcunning
Sailut
I have really enjoyed following this forum. Most every one seems to be
even friendlier than on some beaches.
What is the forum like when people can actually get out of the cold and
sail?
This forum has one drawback, I can't go a day without really wanting to
get back on the water. Even skiing hasen't helped this year.
I NEED WIND!!!!!!
Marty
chris
What is all the hype about gear snobs. The people who complain only complain
because they can't afford the new stuff. And its true the new stuff does
make you sail better and faster and higher. I've been sailing for three
years in shit wind ohio and I WILL loop before the end of the year. If I
stayed on the shit I learned i still wouldn't have planed
JohnMic
To proceed to expert level as a windsurfer takes most people maybe 10 years
Some intermediate sailors who want to get there quickly will try anything
I think these sailors ,especially if they can afford to,end up buying far
more
gear than they need, in the mistaken belief that it will accelerate their
progress.
Maybe this is just part of the learning curve which many of us must pass
thru.
Not judging just observing.
Well time on the water eventually teaches us all that skill is 90% of the
equation and that whilst you've got to have decent gear, its secondary.
So dont buy new kit,sell your retro gear and invest your money in
TIME ON THE WATER by taking an extended trip to Maui.
Although you may get labelled a Maui Snob
JohnM
Charlie Escher
Mike, the original post discussed flatness along two axes, hence my response in kind.Notice also that I posted that vee= control,control=speed.
Original post stated:
Rocker shape and vee will affect speed and tracking (but only in the back > half or less while fully powered) but the merits of either are debatable.
hence my opinions on both.
Ellen W Faller
NLW TFW NM wrote in message
lots snipped
Try a science newsgroup, like say sci.geo.geology.earthquakes. I can't
recall the last time anything terribly "scientific" was discussed.
>We're in a rarified atmosphere here, guys and gals.
And thank you Mike for remembering that there are SOME women here on
rec.ws!
Ellen
at home, not at work this time!
NLW TFW NM
A much cheaper way to get in MORE time on the water is to catch the Gorge in a
good year. It's tough to beat 50-60 hours of planing a week in the States.
In a bad Gorge year, you'd be better off in San Diego.
Almost.
sailquik (Roger Jackson)
On 15 Feb 1998 05:02:51 GMT, nlwt...@aol.com (NLW TFW NM) wrote:
>A much cheaper way to get in MORE time on the water is to catch the Gorge in a
>good year. It's tough to beat 50-60 hours of planing a week in the States.
>
>In a bad Gorge year, you'd be better off in San Diego.
Mike:
How is spending a year in the Gorge cheaper than buying some modern lite
air planing specific kit, which can be used in the Gorge in a bad year, San
Diego, or anywhere else where it blows more than 7.5 mph. Might even be
worth a 360 mile drive to your favorite lake, if you could plane all
weekend or all day!
I'm sure this will "pull your chain" just a bit, but you really ought to
try it sometime. A true test of skill!
later
Roger
sailquik (Roger Jackson) |Ph # in Md. (301) 872-9459
Lvl 1 WS Instructor | in N.C. (919) 995-3204
F2/North Sails/Rigs/True Ames/ Rainbow
Bob Jacobson
NLW TFW NM wrote:
> Good idea, Dimitar, but the snobs came and went 8-12 years ago. They
> drove this
> to become the world's fastest growing sport (or water sport, or
> frustrating
> water sport, or expensive frustrating water sport for wealthy slender
> people
> with SUVs, or whatever), then realized IT'S NOT AS SIMPLE AS IT LOOKS,
> and
> bailed right about the time that 297 new windsurfing gear companies
> and 4,934
> shops opened their doors.
My recollection of that period is that the growth occurred while most
everybody was sailing long boards. A lot of people didn't make the move
into shortboards, and they were the dropouts. Transitioning to
shortboards was harder back then. Sails were unstable in high winds,
fins were really prone to spinout, the boards were heavy and slow. And,
there weren't as many schools and clinics. Basically you had to figure
stuff out for yourself, and swap tips with your friends.
During the boom, a casual observer could look at all those people out
there crusing along on longboards in light winds and think "that looks
like fun, I bet I can do that", and give it a go. Nowadays, a caual
observer will most likely see a bunch of hard of hardcore shortboarders
showing off their carve jibes near the launch site and think "that looks
hard", and pass on trying it.
> Thus the decline in the sport, which many say saved it from
> self-destruction:
> Where would we PUT another few million windsurfers? There just isn't
> ROOM for
> them on Maui, on the Columbia (or at least the Columbia's parking
> lots), at
> Bird Island, on the Bay (?), in the Delta, on Cheney, on Gaarda, etc.
I'm afraid I agree. Unfortunately, low numbers also means we are a less
visible political constituency. Which means that when an access or other
regulatory issue comes up, proportionately more of us need to be
involve, and we have to be more persuasive on the merits.
>
>
> Unless it implodes, I'm glad the industry did slack off. And as long
> as two
> craftsmen remain to take my money for boards and sails, I'll survive.
> I'm not
> sure some of those venues would have survived growth extrapolated from
> the 80s.
>
JohnMic
Anybody have a guesstimate of how many people read this
NG regularly?
Just curious.
Wolfram Pietzsch
I feel this newsgroup is pretty good as it is and most discussions are conducted
in a civilized tone. (Try alt.rec.scubadiving for insulting and abusive
language).
My major complaint is that there is no archive to refer to when newbies ask the
same questions over and over again. I am a little tired responding by E-mail or
here to questions like: how is such and such a place? what is the wind like in
mai? etc.
Wolf
NLW TFW NM
Re:"Unfortunately, low numbers also means we are a less
visible political constituency. Which means that when an access or other
regulatory issue comes up, proportionately more of us need to be
involve, and we have to be more persuasive on the merits."
That's the biggest disadvantage to our minuscule voice. Witness the recent
discussion of beach access in Maryland and Chicago.
We had to walk into the state legislature carrying the shortest board we could
find to dissuade them from imposing a fat three-year registation fee on EACH
board, back when many of us owned 3-4-5-6 boards and rotated them every year or
two.
And when the Corps of Engineers at the national level tried to impose launching
fees for sailboards, our local Corps manager exempted us because "They're the
best-behaved, most self-policing, by far the most sober, least intrusive group
on his lake. No way we're gonna hassle them."
NLW TFW NM
Re:"How is spending a year in the Gorge cheaper than buying some modern lite
air planing specific kit, which can be used in the Gorge in a bad year, San
Diego, or anywhere else where it blows more than 7.5 mph. Might even be
worth a 360 mile drive to your favorite lake, if you could plane all
weekend or all day! I'm sure this will "pull your chain" just a bit, but you
really ought to try it sometime. A true test of skill!"
You're right, Roger. I misspoke; I meant "shortboard" time, not just "planing"
time. And in this case, I meant "shortboard B&J" time, as distinguished from
sailing sailboards without daggerboards on flat water, since I presume the
original reference to Hawaii implied that kind of sailing.
I won't delve into the "planing" versus "windsurfing" issue much beyond what
Tom James and Clay Feeter have done in their editorials. Paraphrasing and
combining their comments very loosely from memory, the distinction was in the
word "surfing". "Boardsailing" was discussed as sailing a board, whether
non-planing longboard sailing or planing shortboards on flat water.
"Windsurfing" was keyed to its "surfing" root, in which the sailor is trying to
perform, or at least emulate, SURFING aided by sail power. I agree with them
that the two are quite different sports, albeit with overlap, that happen to
involve the same basic equipment.
I spent a few days each season testing several of the original
higher-performance light air boards through he early 90s -- HyPerTech's
adjustable-rocker "Boss", for example, plus several more mainstream boards from
ProTech, Mistral, etc. They were interesting, but they weren't for the kind of
sailing that draws people to Maui. It was sort of like riding dirt bikes on
Bonneville Salt Flats or a road bike on an empty freeway-- fun for a while, but
the challenge of trying to go 0.3 knots faster than I could yesterday wore thin
within about 5 minutes, FOR ME.
It's sort of like standing on a board while the scenery rushes by, as opposed
to working yer mind and butt off to stay upright. That's why I'm crashing a lot
when sailing my biggest sail and board in marginal winds; While my friends --
including the ones who are much better sailors than I -- are primarily
connecting jibes with straight lines, I'm trying to do the same things I would
do if powered up on my 4.0 in big swell. That's just not realistic for me on a
10-foot board built strictly for early planing, nor would most early planing
boards hold up to it.
What I learned from sailing light-air boards on flat water was observable
primarily on gauges -- a speedometer and a wind gauge. What I learned from
sailing crooked lines on four-dimensional water was observable from 100 yards
away -- and in my guts.
It's a personal problem. It's the same drawback that will keep me off the golf
course 'til I'm 90 ... NOT ENOUGH ADRENALINE.
NLW TFW NM
clive
It's funny this subject should come up.
Lately, I've been spending alot less time on 'the group',
mainly because I've had a couple of negative experiences.
Sure, when I give some advice, it's not always the
greatest, and I make a couple mistakes,
open-mouth-insert-foot kind of stuff.
I remember a few times some of my nonsense was shot down,
and although some people are polite when telling me I'm an
idiot, sometimes some people are downright nasty.
Look back at the virus thread (one of my shameful posts),
people wouldn't drop it, and it just got annoying getting
more and more flamed.
Not only in the group, but in life, I've learned to be alot
less oppressive with what I say, that comes mainly from
learning that having your best thoughts shot down so
bluntly really hurts.
I really didn't feel like posting anymore, mainly because I
didn't feel welcome in "the club" and started to believe
that I didn't know as much about the sport as I thought I
did.
Have you all started to notice this too?
Let's not let the "right advice" be from the best arguers,
and start giving eachother chances to vent our views.
I just hope that the people you all are refering to as
being 'problem posters' is not me, and that the oppressive
posting will eventually stop.
Clive
NLW TFW NM
Clive pleaded, "I just hope that the people you all are refering to as
being 'problem posters' is not me"
Absolutely not, Clive. You're one of our brighter new stars here. Your posts
are well thought out, open some interesting new ground, and are never
offensive. Look at the long thread of pleasant responses you garnered from
rec.jetskiing, for example.
Even the "problem posters" are not problems, unless an individual takes their
crap seriously. The people that have been on here a lot for a year know who the
guys are with the ego problems, that feel they have to call names or put others
down because they prefer a certain type of gear or don't surfsail.
Re:"and that the oppressive posting will eventually stop."
Even if it doesn't, just consider the source and blow it off. I didn't keep
reading the thread past the first response that reassured us e-mail is still
indeed inert, so I missed the oppressive responses. I've also gotten jaded by
the pure crap on most other forums, so almost never take offense. An "ATTITUDE"
is the other guy's problem, not mine.
The one time I took offense and acted on it was when some clown accused me of
falsifying gear test results to kiss the manufacturers' butts. He's lucky the
heaviest things I could throw at him were words.
Roger Nightingale
TomBuckOb2 wrote:
> I would be interested in seeing the supportive notes posted in the open (I
> believe that you are getting them, just interested in their perspective) I'm
> sure it will expand the discussion
>
> Tom O'Brien - Chicago
No one seems to be supporting MTVNewGuy publicly and now I feel shamed into doing
so.
I sent MTVNewsGuy a supportive note. It agreed with him that a few posters define
the atmosphere of the group and I stated that we (as a group) have no way of
assessing their credibility. Tom, you recently flamed a guy for planning on using
a 5.9 in 15 knots for wavesailing to the Barbados (if that was not you, please
accept my humblest apologies). In so doing, you made it apparent that you don't do
much down-the-line wavesailing, and you probably alienated a potential contributor
to the group. And Mike posts so frequently and eloquently that few people have the
time and energy to argue with him, even if they disagree. What takes him 2 minutes
to write would take me half an hour (in fact, it did). Whether Mike likes it or
not, his posts have a tremendous influence on the "feel' of this newsgroup. His
posts are often informative and humorous, but they can also be condescending and
pedantic - and why not? most people on this group seem to think he is
windsurfing's oracle.
And another thing . . .:) I've been reading this group since its inception, and
I've noticed that people are increasingly presenting their opinions as fact.
"IMO", and "IMHO" seem to be a thing of the past. And Mike, I don't really care
how hostile other groups are because that's completely irrelevant (IMHO) - maybe
the reason this group is so civil is because of open discussions like this one.
Oh, and my note to MTVNewsGuy also included this general observation:
That's one of the funny things about the net - people have an irresistible
tendency to make implications about you how good they are thru their
responses
(I've seen it in myself).
"On the internet, nobody knows you suck".
There, now I can get back to work . . . yeah, right.
Roger
clive
NLW TFW NM wrote:
> I won't delve into the "planing" versus "windsurfing"
issue much beyond what
> Tom James and Clay Feeter have done in their editorials.
Paraphrasing and
> combining their comments very loosely from memory, the
distinction was in the
> word "surfing". "Boardsailing" was discussed as sailing a
board, whether
> non-planing longboard sailing or planing shortboards on
flat water.
> "Windsurfing" was keyed to its "surfing" root, in which
the sailor is trying to
> perform, or at least emulate, SURFING aided by sail
power. I agree with them
> that the two are quite different sports, albeit with
overlap, that happen to
> involve the same basic equipment.
Here's one of my takes on it:
Exerpt from "How to Become a Cottage Windsurfer" (full
lengths are available upon request)...
... Finally, to be a cottage windsurfer, it is essential
that you are able to
grasp your purpose of being out there. In this case, the
goal is to have
fun. Cottage sailing fun can be divided two ways -
adrenaline rush fun and
social playing fun. This could be what separates
windsurfing and
boardsailing. The most fun you've probably ever had in
non-planing
conditions was just fooling around with other boardsailors.
This social
playing fun is what the sport originally based itself on
and drew a huge
number of cottagers to. If sailing could become a fun
social sport again
it could attract a whole new generation of cottage
boardsailors.
Unfortunately, this social side of sailing is what people
forget when they
get addicted to the speed and carves of planing winds.
Now, windsurfing is
portrayed as an extreme sport in exotic locations, when the
truth is that
some of the best fun can be shared with other sailors in
low winds. As an
individualistic sport, windsurfing has abandoned the social
side in the
quest for bigger adrenaline rushes and the original appeal
has been
forgotten. If our sport could accommodate adrenaline
junkies and sociable
water sport enthusiasts at the same time, it would have the
potential to
become one of the world's most popular sports.
Clive
Laurence Robinson
-- - Roger,
In my humble opinion you can often tell quite alot about a contributor
from the way he or she words a message.
I am not sure that a few feather rustlers don't add spice and they quite
often start a quality thread going despite being antisocial or dogmatic.
I am, newsgroupers, your obedient servant.
Laurence
>
Laurence Robinson
sailquik (Roger Jackson)
>What I learned from sailing light-air boards on flat water was observable
>primarily on gauges -- a speedometer and a wind gauge. What I learned from
>sailing crooked lines on four-dimensional water was observable from 100 yards
>away -- and in my guts.
Mike :
I can do the 4 dimension stuff also and try to do it whenever the
conditions allow, but the conditions are kinda hard to find outside the
Gorge and Maui, so I sail in the conditions that exist, and since I got
into the lite air planing specific gear, I get to sail, I mean really
*sail*!!) about teice as much.
So, to each his own buddy, and lite air planing beats the golf course all
to heck. I outgrew golf at the ripe old age of 12.
later dude!
sailquik (Roger Jackson) US 3704 |Ph#in MD 301-872-9459
F2/North Sails/ True Ames/Rainbow|Ph#in NC 919-995-3204
US Sail Lvl 1 WS Instructor
Brian Mckenzie
On Fri, 13 Feb 1998 16:39:33 -0600, The Dog
<cunnbd.Just_S...@aud.alcatel.com> wrote:
>
>The most important thing is that it's still sound, easy to ride
>and a hell of a lot of fun. Key word, "fun." Never lose sight
>of the fact that this is a sport about having FUN. To hell with
>what the butt monkeys "on the beach" think.
Ding, ding, ding...we have a winner! You hit the nail on the head !
Brian
---------------------------------------
Triangle Boardsailing Club, Raleigh, NC
http://jollyroger.com/windsurf/
Brian Mckenzie
On Fri, 13 Feb 1998 01:46:49 GMT, sail...@mail.ameritel.net (sailquik
(Roger Jackson)) wrote:
>
> Bozo's are those sailors who end up on "Bozo Beach" regardless of the kit
>they're on. You know, Bozo beach, that downwind shoreline where the "walk
>of shame" starts. Most sailing sites site have a beach or area like this.
>
What kind of logic is that? I've done what you've called the "walk of
shame". To me, its just that mother nature just kicked my ass at that
time, either too light, to strong or it just wasn't my day. Its all a
learning experience. I am assuming that since you said "beach" you are
refering to oceanside. With your logic, I guess you just called every
Hatteras shredder a "bozo", even the locals. I felt really good one
day, when I couldn't make it out, because Donny, Dana, Dimitri, & etc.
didn't make it out either! Ease up with the "bozo" thing, it might
scare some people off of trying new things. Your learn alot about
success through your failures.
sailquik (Roger Jackson)
>On Fri, 13 Feb 1998 01:46:49 GMT, sail...@mail.ameritel.net (sailquik
>(Roger Jackson)) wrote:
>>
>> Bozo's are those sailors who end up on "Bozo Beach" regardless of the kit
>>they're on. You know, Bozo beach, that downwind shoreline where the "walk
>>of shame" starts. Most sailing sites site have a beach or area like this.
>What kind of logic is that?
Well, I thought I was being somewhat "tongue in cheek" here, as some one
kinda pulled my chain when they said
"Bozo's on the latest F2 boards" or something to that effect.
If I have offended anyone, I apologize profusely. That was never my intent!
I prefaced my first post in reply to this thread "As the resident F2 tech
head (at least I'll admit to that) and then I went on to the Bozo Beach
thing.
I have to admit that I was less than thrilled about being called a bozo,
because of my choice of gear. I tell people about the new F2 stuff, because
I often get the opportunity to ride it when it's fairly new, and I try to
give accurate impressions of what I like about it, and what I don't.
Hey, the bottom line is, "It works for me".
And then things just seemed to snowball, in not too nice a direction.
That's one trouble about posting on the net. You never really know how
people will react, and once it's out there, you cannot cancel it.
If you have ever sailed at the dam at Lake Isabella, in Southern Calif.,
there really is a rocky beach on the downwind side of the cove that's
called "bozo beach".
> I've done what you've called the "walk of shame".
So have I, inland , on the coast, and in the sounds, for a variety of
reasons, too much sail, broken gear, wind shifts, you name it.
>To me, its just that mother nature just kicked my ass at that
>time, either too light, to strong or it just wasn't my day. Its all a
>learning experience.
I agree completely! I've been there, done that, numerous times!
> I am assuming that since you said "beach" you are
>refering to oceanside. With your logic, I guess you just called every
>Hatteras shredder a "bozo", even the locals.
Nope, the ocean side at Hatteras, is not a bozo beach!! Last time I sailed
over there, I was truly "denied" Ended up a 1/4 north of Ego, and had to
walk it all back. But a few others also didn't make it out that day.
That's wavesailing in Hatteras, always has been, always will be. Sometimes
mother nature just wins, so ya tuck your tail, pick up your kit, and go
sail in the Sound!
> I felt really good one day, when I couldn't make it out, because Donny, Dana, Dimitri, & etc.
>didn't make it out either!
> Ease up with the "bozo" thing, it might scare some people off of trying new things. Your learn alot about
>success through your failures.
Right On!
Somehow, this got blown completely out of proportion, and if I started
things in a negative direction, I apologize!
NLW TFW NM
RE:" Mike's ... posts are often informative and humorous, but they can also be
condescending and pedantic"
Duly noted. I try to avoid that, but apparently need to try harder. Will do.
Re:" - and why not? most people on this group seem to think he is windsurfing's
oracle"
Also aware of that, although I'd guess it's more like"some" or "a few" rather
than "most". But because even a few put a lot of faith in my posts, I try to
distinguish between my statements of fact (I do know some, after 18 years of
sailing, four years as Technical Editor of the only pure windsurfing gear
testing magazine, and 25 years as an engineer) and opinion (I have a LOT of
those after 54 years of living). I try to make it clear when my knowledge gives
way to logic and when logic gives way to suppositionr, and when those give way
to anecdotal experience.
I don't think, for example, that I ever said categorically that "A given size
sail IS faster at 10,000 feet than at sea level". I presented a lot of logic
that led me to that conclusion, but expressed a desire that a REAL expert --
Bruce or Ken -- would step up and address the issue. Some of Laurence's logic
made me think real hard about that, but my analysis merely reinforced my
initial assessment. I change my opinions in response to logic and facts, not
mere pressure, here as well as in real life.
OTOH, when someone makes a rational assessment that I'm pedantic or
condesending, I must accept that because perception is as important as
actuality in social interaction.
But if ya wanna see what my condescension looks like when I KNOW I'm being
condescending, check out my reponses to the salesmen pushing "health" drugs in
place of food and exercise for naive newbies in the health and fitness forums.
I have FUN with those jerkos, very much at their expense.