Roberts AVS still Rules!
Wilzone
After a 2 month stint testing another brand of non-AVS raceboards in Berkeley,
I'm back on the Roberts 28 and going faster than ever. With the addition of a
Techtonics Spitfire 50 fin, I spent yesterday afternoon blowing by Berkeley's
finest racers on some of the latest (non AVS) boards from the local, world
renowned shaper. I simply cannot beleive my own eyes as I pass championship
level sailors on a board that was admittedly shaped 18 months ago. And which
weighs 4 lbs more at least, and costs hundreds less. I'm not trying to blow my
own horn here, I just think Rob Mulder deserves a hell of a lot of respect for
an amazing acomplishment. Nor am I trying to sell boards, because you can't
get one of these right now. But I do like to give credit where it is due, and
I posit that this is the fastest production course racer beyond a doubt that
money can buy, and may be as fast as any custom board, at least in conditions
like we have had on San Francisco Bay lately (8.3m sails, moderate chop). This
opinion may not be popular, but before you flame, be ready to put your money
where your mouth is. Once again, my $.02.
The Wilzone
sjh...@wsicorp.com
wil...@aol.com (Wilzone) wrote:
> I posit that this is the fastest production course racer beyond a doubt that
> money can buy, and may be as fast as any custom board, at least in conditions
> like we have had on San Francisco Bay lately (8.3m sails, moderate chop).
This
> opinion may not be popular, but before you flame, be ready to put your money
> where your mouth is. Once again, my $.02.
>
No flames here. Just curious, any pro race results using AVS boards?
Thanks,
Steven J. Honey Email: sjh...@wsicorp.com
Senior Software Engineer
Weather Services International
http://www.intellicast.com
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Vaughan James Sanders
<wil...@aol.com> writes
>Sorry, but the AVS hype seems to have died, so I'm here to stir it back up.
>After a 2 month stint testing another brand of non-AVS raceboards in Berkeley,
>I'm back on the Roberts 28 and going faster than ever. With the addition of a
>Techtonics Spitfire 50 fin, I spent yesterday afternoon blowing by Berkeley's
>finest racers on some of the latest (non AVS) boards from the local, world
>renowned shaper. I simply cannot beleive my own eyes as I pass championship
>level sailors on a board that was admittedly shaped 18 months ago. And which
>weighs 4 lbs more at least, and costs hundreds less. I'm not trying to blow my
>own horn here, I just think Rob Mulder deserves a hell of a lot of respect for
>an amazing acomplishment. Nor am I trying to sell boards, because you can't
>get one of these right now. But I do like to give credit where it is due, and
>money can buy, and may be as fast as any custom board, at least in conditions
>like we have had on San Francisco Bay lately (8.3m sails, moderate chop). This
>opinion may not be popular, but before you flame, be ready to put your money
>where your mouth is. Once again, my $.02.
>
Have to agree with you. Had a 25 for a few weeks now, and it's quick.
By the way the 28 is available in the UK.
Jamie
Jamie Sanders
Chalkwell Windsurfing Club
http://freespace.virgin.net/ken.rosier/cwc.htm
--
Vaughan James Sanders
TKandel
I was just wondering how well the AVS boards handle when it does start to get
windier. Do they loose their advantage in stronger winds? How do they jibe,
and does your jibe technique need to change? Does anything else in your
sailing style have to change also? Living in the Midwest light air planing is
always of interest, but I wouldn't want to give up the fun factor that I enjoy
with other boards.
Tom K.
Southport-Rigging.com
Michagan which isnt the nicest conditions in the world to sail in those
winds, and I have to admit it weas this fact that sold me on the shape from
Rob Mulder, both boards easily handled the wind and conditions, I am a
bigger guy at 240lbs and do tend to carry bigger sails than most, IE on both
occasions I used the Z1 6.6 and also tested out with the Gaastra T Flow
F1.11 6.4 and 7.4 and found both boards and sails were very stable and easy
to control, infact I would say that it the upper wind ranges were the AVS
boards really excell.
Darren
sa...@southport-rigging.com
http://www.southport-rigging.com
1-800-877-7025 Inside US only.
1-414-652-5434 Outside Us or local.
1-414-652-3188 Fax.
Hours:
Mon - Fri 10am - 7pm
Sat 9am - 5pm
Sun 11am - 3pm
All times are CST
Southport Rigging 100% Windsurfing Performance in Wisconsin since 1981, and
now the World.
TKandel wrote in message <19981014174130...@ngol08.aol.com>...
Don Fukushima
He and I went out together with the intent to test the boards. Here is my
version.
I started on the Roberts with a 8.3 Z1, rigged just past the inside moon,
not completely maxed. Wind was about 17 avg. I am about 155lbs and about
5'7". Will is taller and maybe 5, 10lbs more at most. He was on my '98 23
5/8' Mike's Lab, with a WW Race 8.2.
It was the first time I sailed the Roberts and it was fairly windy (now
about 17-20 avg). The chop was medium for the Bay and I had some trouble
getting the board to settle down on the water. During the windy patches,
Will was just barely outpointing me upwind. As we sailed into lighter wind,
I was killing him both on speed and angle.
We switched after about 20-30 minutes. Unfortunately, the wind had backed
off to maybe 14-16. We switched rigs with the sails. This was a big
mistake since I could not get his rig (WW race) to work; booms too high,
harness lines too far back, etc. By then some of the other racers (national
champs) joined up and Will and they trounced me really bad. Will did have
the angle on them as we worked our way upwind.
We came across the top of TI and headed on a long reach toward the bay
bridge on the windward side of TI and YBI. Will was screwing around and got
a late start and did catch up. As we headed downwind below YBI back under
the bridge, the wind got light and flukey from the wind shadow of the
island. Will again kicked butt and planed nearly all the time through the
light stuff and was clearly beating everyone downwind toward the marina.
>>Do they loose their advantage in stronger winds? << There was not
enough time to test in similar windy conditions to verify this. Will and I
were both a bit bummed that he did not ride the Roberts when it was windy.
I did notice the board feels and handles quite heavy. From the short time I
had it in windy water, it seemed that the extra weight helped keep the board
settled on the water. The downside of this is it seems sluggish and not
very responsive.
>> How do they jibe and does your jibe technique need to change? << Like
any wide high volume board, you need to press the rail lightly and get the
weight onto the front of the board to keep it smoothly planing around.
>> Living in the Midwest light air planing is always of interest, but I
wouldn't want to give up the fun factor that I enjoy with other boards. <<
Depends on how you define "fun". If you would rather zoom around, planing
in amazingly light conditions then the Roberts is a great choice. If you
would rather do "fast slogging" on a narrower and smaller vol. board, then
get something else.
Thanks to Will's generosity I have the Roberts for the next week and plan to
do more testing every day on the Roberts over the next week with some other
racer friends to see how it does.
If you folks want to hear more testing news, let me know and I will post
here.
Thx Don
Wilzone
champs," I had speed too. As for the Roberts feeling "heavy," you have to
remember that not many people have sailed a 13 lb Mike's Lab. In comparison I
would agree that the Roberts is a bit more sluggish feeling than what you are
sailing, but for most mortals who have been sailing production boards, even the
lightest F2s and Mistrals, the Roberts is a feather light Ferrari.
The only time I feel the weight difference is out of transitions the Lab guys
can take off a bit faster, and when you get slammed by a big wave going upwind
and the whole rig kinda stops for an instant the labs will jump foreward again
where it will take me an extra second or two to get back to speed. That's
always going to happen with a production board vs a custom. Still, out of
control in big shit near Angel Island last friday I was able to get Steve on
starboard anyway, and downwind on port we were too close to say who was faster.
I re-tuned my sail since then and now I think I'm faster upwind on port.
Anyway, have fun with the board, it is what it is. Let Kudruna and anyone
else, Vlad maybe? and Dimitar sounds very interested. I'll be in Hatteras
working away testing all the new Windwings and Fanatic boards. I know, my job
sucks, but what can you do? I hope you guys get some good wind (hope I do
too).
Lat.
W
Don Fukushima
guys can take off a bit faster, and when you get slammed by a big wave going
Today the wind was light and dropping fast by the time I got on the water at
4:00pm. It was reading 12 at the restuaurant, less on the water. It was
just barely enough to get planing with the 8.3; I had it rigged with quite a
bit of DH, not sure why.
The Roberts still feels quite sluggish when getting it onto a full plane.
With the first pump or two, the board pops up out of the water pretty
easily. When the wind is just a bit stronger, I can get it to plane off
from there with little more effort. Today, when the wind is more marginal,
and the first two pumps does not get the board up and planing, then I felt
it was quite "heavy" to get the board to keep plowing onto a plane. After
about 10-15 pumps and not getting the board to stay on a plane, I would let
it drop back down. The Lab is much easier to pump and keep pumping longer.
It certainly could be that I need more time to figure out the board and its
fine points but it does seem to take more work to get it to stay on a plane
in very marginal conditions.
>> Let Kudruna and anyone ride .......... <<
Last two days sucked so Bob could not get a ride. Hop would like to give it
a spin this Saturday.
>> in Hatteras testing all the new Windwings << Give those new race sails a
serious test. I am still considering the WW race deal.
thanks Don
Vaughan James Sanders
>If you folks want to hear more testing news, let me know and I will post
>here.
>
>Thx Don
>
Don
Could you post some information on the Mike,s Lab, please.
We are very interested in your comments on the Roberts.
Thanks
Don Fukushima
>We are very interested in your comments on the Roberts.
Not sure how much you know about Mike's Lab boards. Here's the short
version. If you want more detail, just ask. Mike is a custom board builder
and racer here in the Bay Area. He builds boards for many world cup racers.
This year he shaped for Kevin and Matt Pritchard, Scott Fenton, Phil McGain,
and many other US national level racers. If you see world cup racing
pictures and see these guys on "production" boards, they are actually custom
boards painted and decaled to look like production boards.
Anyway, this season's racing here in the bay was rather light with most
racers (160-180 lbs) on 7.8-8.3 race sails. The boards which worked best
are 25" wide. The range is 23 1/2" to 26". The narrower boards do got go
upwind as well but carry more speed off the wind. The 25" take a lot less
work to make them go upwind and seem to go off the wind pretty fast. The
26" seem to go upwind great but seem to have a hard time going deep off the
wind and go slower.
Fins seem to range 48cm to 52cm. Nearly everyone here is running Tectonics
Spitfires. There are a few System B's but they do not seem to be working
any better.
Regards, Don
Vaughan James Sanders
>version. If you want more detail, just ask.
Thanks Don
Nothing is known about these boards here.
A few people here would be very interested, in any more info, you have
time to post.
The Roberts boards and AVS in general is very new here, and are getting
a lot of interest
Thanks again
Wilzone
board were in super light winds. Remember the Emeryville Cal-Cup that they
didn't count because half the fleet couldn't plane? I was 9th overall (1st in
Men's A fleet), and beat you by 5 minutes on the same size sail. That was on
the even heavier Seatrend version. On the way to the upwind mark I could plane
much before Wasson on his lab, same size sail. If I hadn't blown the lay-line
and almost hit the pier in the flood (4 extra tacks) I would have been second
to the upwind mark that day. As it was I was 5th, and lost 4 places downwind
because I was stupid and got in a drag race trying to roll Lester while Percey
and 2 other guys went under us.
My answer is that the board WILL plane faster than a 25" lab, but you have to
know how to do it. You need to sail the board a few more times before you can
say that it doesn't plane up as early as yours. Another option, if the weight
is really bothering you all that much, is get a Roberts Custom. I just ordered
one, so when it gets here in 6 weeks we can compare them (if there's any wind
by then).
Anyway, I'm back, so let's go sailing this week (I want my board back!!)
Tuesday and Thursday look good for wind right now.
Lat.
W
Don Fukushima
Well, remember the Pro-Am at Coyote. We were both in a major slog war for a
couple of miles. I don't remember you planing off on me; For that matter, I
was on my 23 1/2" Lab and as I recollect we both slogged back to the beach
basically at the same time.
>> You need to sail the board a few more times before you can say that it
doesn't plane up as early as yours. <<
You may be right. I was out today and it got pretty marginal. What I have
found is the Roberts will jump up out of the water in one or two pumps. But
from this point on, you really do need to keep up the monkey-screw pumping
to work it onto a full self sustaining plane. It will get planing in less
wind than the Lab but I don't know if it is because of the bigger sails. I
never ran an 8.3 on the Lab. I will say that it still feels easier to get
the Lab onto a plane.
>> Another option, if the weight is really bothering you all that much, is
get a Roberts Custom. I just ordered one, so when it gets here in 6 weeks
we can compare them (if there's any wind by then).
Sorry my friend but I have to say the season is pretty much gone. However,
I can slide out tomorrow if it picks up.
>Anyway, I'm back, so let's go sailing this week (I want my board back!!)
>Tuesday and Thursday look good for wind right now.
Unfortunately, I never had enough time to trial the board seriously with the
others. I'll get the board back to you this week. Too bad we won't get
enough quality testing time until next season to really settle this debate.
The big unanswered question is how does the board feel when the wind and
chop gets more wild (20-25 avg). When the wind is light (below 17 avg), I
think the Roberts seems fine. Mike commented that he thinks the board could
do well in heavy air.
Regards, Don
Wilzone
Saturday after taking two firsts in production class and a 9th overall in the
last heat with the pros to give me another bullet in production, Sunday in the
long distance I was almost a full leg ahead of you when Justin Gordon told me I
rounded the Third Ave mark the wrong direction. I was at the last mark when
that happened. I then sailed back 2-3 miles retracing my steps and
re-rounding the mark at 3rd Ave, and THATS when I first saw you. IN ADDITION,
unbeknownst to me, that board, which was brand new at the start of the race,
had a defective vent and was taking on water all day Saturday and Sunday. When
we got out of the water sunday night, my board weighed over 30 lbs!!! That is
the only reason I couldn't plane away from you at the end of the race. I had
no idea until I tried to carry my rig to the car. The fact that we finished at
the same time gives an extremely poor impression of your board's light air
performance in my opinion. That defective vent, and rounding the mark the
wrong way, cost me the first place production trophy, I had to settle for
second. Well, it didn't help that I had 2 DNFs on saturday for hitting a buoy
and recrossing the start line. Actually on saturday I won every heat I didn't
DQ. It was like shooting fish in a barrel, 'cept I'm not very good with guns.
Also, as if I don't have enough excuses, at the Pro-Am I was still using Fin
Works molded fins, half the price of the Techtonics, but about half the
performance as well. If my vent had held, and if I'd had a Spitfire 50 at the
time, well, it would have been another story altogether. It's those "woulda,
coulda, shouldas" about racing that have me totally addicted, and chomping at
the bit for next season.
Don Fukushima
Your note is a masterpiece of "if I had just ... and just that... and
just..just.. just.......". I make no excuses; I could certainly come up with
a list a mile long too. You know what? It does not matter one f..ing bit.
In racing, the only thing that matters are the race results. Basically,
every "if, coulda, woulda, shoulda" is a mistake and the only way to get
each one back is if everyone else in the fleet makes a mistake. And you
know what, the better the fleet you sail in the chances of getting even get
lower and lower.
I am really pleased to see you so stoked on racing. I feel the same way;
after so many years in this sport, racing is like taking up windsurfing all
over again.
I am calling it a season after today's session. I still think the
production Roberts is "heavy" and can not compare to a Lab in getting onto a
plane. Brian and I switched boards today, we kept our own rigs after
that stupid lesson you and I learned a few weeks ago. His initial
impressions were not great - same kind of comments (heavy to get going in
very marginal conditions).
I'll drop the board by in the next day or two. I would like to hear more
about the Roberts custom. I assume it will be much lighter.
Regards, Don
Wilzone wrote in message <19981027105852...@ng01.aol.com>...
Frank Weston
> Wilzone wrote in message <19981027105852...@ng01.aol.com>...
> I rounded the Third Ave mark the wrong direction.
> I then sailed back 2-3 miles retracing my steps
> got out of the water sunday night, my board weighed over 30 lbs!!!
> Well, it didn't help that I had 2 DNFs on saturday for hitting a
> buoy and recrossing the start line.
>
> I won every heat I didn't DQ.
Will, please don't take offense if I point out that the racing you describe
above sounds like a clown managed circus. If you came out on top with the
above list of blunders, your board must be twice as fast as the
competitions'. That's hard to believe. Maybe other factors contributed?
Frank Weston
Jonathan M Richardson
: > Wilzone wrote in message <19981027105852...@ng01.aol.com>...
I just wanted to point out that these types of mistakes are very easy
to make, particularly in a long distance race. Consider that you
started by standing on the beach staring at the course usually drawn
on a white board which, if it's windy, keeps falling over. The marks
are indicated as it a course drawn around them. You need to translate
that information into a command such as "leave mark 4 to port" and you
need to remember that information an hour or two later while you are
concentrating primarily on you sailing! It can be hard.
I'm surprised that Will didn't simply withdraw.
-Jonathan (US2330
Stewart Legler
: Will, please don't take offense if I point out that the racing you describe
: above sounds like a clown managed circus. If you came out on top with the
: above list of blunders, your board must be twice as fast as the
: competitions'. That's hard to believe. Maybe other factors contributed?
now don't go giving "clown managed circus's" a good name
for a real "clown managed circus" come to dallas this weekend
pumpkin cup lake texoma
sorry zing
oh yea, if the "seasons over" send that avs board here
our seasons just starting (Dallas)
stew
Wilzone
the second day at the pro-am. You have to remember, though, that I am still a
rookie at this, and that was, like, my 3rd race ever. You also must realize
that I was racing in Production class that day, and there were less than ten
people racing in that class, and only 4 or 5 with modern gear. One guy
actually entered on an Astro Rock. That said it only emphasizes my point that
the board was EXTREMELY fast despite the idiot (me) driving it.
It didn't help that Brad Duffy, the race disorganizer, started a 20 mile long
distance race at 4:30 in the afternoon in a dying breeze. No one even planed
off the starting line. That was the real "clown managed circus." There were
still sailors drifting and unaccounted for after dark, after Duffy had handed
out the trophys and gone home. Lynn Pruit had to hitchike back to his car
after getting totally becalmed and drifing in to shore miles from the finish.
Less than 10 people finished out of a fleet of 30+, including only ONE guy in
production class (though no one saw him round a single mark) who got the trophy
for finishing. Most race organizers would have thrown this race out, but
instead Dufus counted it double. It was really a bummer after a great day of
course racing the day before. I didn't want to say anything until now because
I don't want to look like a sore loser (actually a lot of people were pissed,
but didn't want to say anything for the same reasons) but that long distance
race was a joke. I wish Duffy had been forced to race in that one, 'cause we
might never have seen his 250 lb. ass ever again!! (Just kidding Brad, I'll
be back to race next year).
Anyway, it's a bad day when in one race you shlog for the first 15 minutes, get
lost, ask directions from a competitor who informs you that you mis-rounded a
mark 2 miles after the fact, have to re-round a mark, and meanwhile your board
is getting heavier by the minute but you don't know it, and can't figure out
why you can't plane anymore in wind you could plane in yesterday. That, my
friends, is a very bad day, and calling it a "clown mangaged circus" is being
kind. I thank you.
The Wilzone
Gil Woolley
(Wilzone) wrote:
>"Clown managed circus" is actually pretty accurate to describe my performance
clip...
unclip...
>kind. I thank you.
>
>The Wilzone
A good friend and dinghy racer would terminate one of these
"if I hadn't..." and "if he had..." and "You shouda seen me
at the weather mark" discussions with the shorthand expression
"If, Dog, Rabbit". Puzzled newcomers would ask what that means
and Jim would spell it all out
"If the dog hadn't stopped to take a crap, he woulda
caught the rabbit and if you hadn't stopped to watch
you woulda won the race".
Will, with full respect for your racing and windsurfing
skills, "If, Dog, Rabbit"!
Gil
--
Lets put the humble back in IMHO.
Frank Weston
Jonathan M Richardson <jt...@world.std.com> wrote in article
<F1JJs...@world.std.com>...
> I just wanted to point out that these types of mistakes are very easy
> to make, particularly in a long distance race.
There are probably thousands of sailors in Northern California who could
manage to get around a course without hitting a mark or leaving it on the
wrong side. The trouble is they're not windsurfers. Maybe the root of the
problem with windsurfing as a competitive sport, and relatedly with the
decline in interest in windsurfing is that there is not a lifelong group of
dedicated competitors who can be relied upon to organize and manage a good
race series, and who can competently adhere to racing rules when it comes
time for them to race. Further, there is not a tradition of clubs that
train kids and promote competition at the grass root level. Maybe we need
to take over a few yacht clubs.
The above is an observation, not criticism. Windsurfing is so much fun
without racing, that maybe we don't need a tradition of competition.
BTW Wilzone, a seasoned competitor would not go back a few miles to
re-round a mark unless a DNF would result in a much worse score than a dead
last, and if the difference were really critical to the overall results.
Better to withdraw gracefully and beat everyone to the beach/bar, or if
you're really feeling underhanded, force the sailor who called you on the
rounding to protest you out.
How do I know? Ask me how I wasted my youth on dingy racing before they
invented windsurfing.
Frank Weston
Don Fukushima
>> to make, particularly in a long distance race.
This long distance race had the some legs about 4-5 miles long. You know
what? You have zero chance of spotting the gybe marks. And if the wind is
real up and down, shifting up to 90 degrees, it makes just getting around
the course a major "win".
> Maybe the root of the problem with windsurfing as a competitive sport,
and relatedly with the decline >in interest in windsurfing is that there is
not a lifelong group of dedicated competitors who can be relied >upon to
organize and manage a good race series, and who can competently adhere to
racing rules >when it comes time for them to race. Further, there is not a
tradition of clubs that train kids and >
>promote competition at the grass root level.
We often make similar comments; each year some of the old diehard racers
decide to hang it up for one reason or another and you do not see much hope
in the long term viability of the racing scene when there are virtually no
young racers getting started.
At least here in the Bay Area, one of the major reasons is racing here is
very high end and the cost of entry in terms of skill, time and committment
and mucho $$$$$ is something that very few will endure.
It is also a really big drag to unload last season's race gear when the only
ones around are those so hard core that they all want everything new to
remain competive.
Don
bbense+rec.winds...@telemark.stanford.edu
In article <718v0b$d...@dfw-ixnews3.ix.netcom.com>,
Don Fukushima <df...@ix.netcom.com> wrote:
>>> I just wanted to point out that these types of mistakes are very easy
>>> to make, particularly in a long distance race.
>
>
>
>We often make similar comments; each year some of the old diehard racers
>decide to hang it up for one reason or another and you do not see much hope
>in the long term viability of the racing scene when there are virtually no
>young racers getting started.
>
>At least here in the Bay Area, one of the major reasons is racing here is
>very high end and the cost of entry in terms of skill, time and committment
>and mucho $$$$$ is something that very few will endure.
>
- - I've tried windsurf racing on and off over the last 15 years and everytime
I've come to the conculsion that 99% of winning is getting the right gear
( at least at the introductory level). Racing will never be other than
a minor niche for those with too much money and too much time until there
is one or more popular one design classes. It's too bad, I always enjoyed
dingy racing, even though I was pretty bad at it. I don't mind being beat
by people with more skill, I hate being beat by people with more money.
- - Several one design classes have almost succeded, but they were all tied
to a single manufacturer. Until there is a design that can be built by
multiple manufacturers and is stable over the period of 5-10 years, I
predict that the average age of windsurf racers will steadily increase.
After all, how many 20-somethings can afford to blow $5000 a year on
a hobby? This is a problem with windsurfing in general, racing is just
the extreme case.
- - Windsurfing: the sport that eats its young.
- - Booker C. Bense
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Wilzone
Optimist Pram, $2,300,
Sunfish, $3700, Laser II, $5000? Trailer--?$$ New sail for Laser II $900.
Wanna race in SF Bay? How about a J24 for about $50K ready to race. Hobie 21
$17,000. 49er, $15,000, and those things eat $1000 sails for lunch.
Also, I can't think of one "one design" boat that is made by more than one
manufacturer at a time. "One design" has always meant "one builder."
I agree that windsurf racing is too expensive, but I disagree that he who
spends the most money wins. I raced the whole season on a production board and
two (actually only one) race sails. I won Men's A fleet Cal Cup overall,
beating a lot of guys who spent over twice as much money on gear, and have been
doing it for ten times as long as I have. It is the racers, not the
organizers, not the shops, not the manufacturers who insist on blindly buying
new Mike's Labs year after year, actually paying money to be Mike's guinea
pigs, testing his boards for $1500 a pop (more now?). I tried to offer an
alternative, ONE I PROVED TO WORK BETTER FOR MANY SAILORS, and I am met with
skepticism and scorn. I've even offered the production boards at my cost, no
profit to me, and still they decline. Most of the guys I beat this year would
have done better on my board. But they are afraid to leave the flock. Ted
Turner once said "You will never beat anyone by following them." This is damn
good advice. What I don't get is how these people think they are going to beat
Mike on one of his own boards. It will never happen. Anyway, I digress. The
bottom line is yeah, it is too expensive, but it doesn't have to be. If you
want to race next year, I can set you up for about $2000, and you won't have to
blame your equipment if you lose. And it's still the cheapest form of racing
you will find around here.
My usual .02
The Wilzone
Wilzone
to do it again. I think that's the addicting part of racing, or a lot of
things. The thing to remember is that all the other guys out there are going
"If Dog Rabbit" too. Like If I hadn't hit that mark for no reason, I might
have beat X, but only IF X made the same mistakes he did, of which there is no
guarantee next time. Even the guy who wins the heat probably fked up
somewhere. I wasn't boasting, or even trying to. I was trying to explain
exactly what you are talking about. AND the original story was to explain why
I had lousy boardspeed and a bad finish (board taking on water, re-rounding
mark) not to explain my fully admitted lack of skill and judgement on the
racecourse, but to defend the quality and performance of my equipment, which
even more highlights my ineptitude. I guess the point of what I was trying to
say was that if I wasn't such an idiot, AND if my board hadn't sunk, I would
have done very well. I suck, not the gear. If, Dog, Rabbit. My point
exactly.
Thanks again, but I'm not sure how much more humble I could put in IMHO.
W
bbense+rec.winds...@telemark.stanford.edu
In article <19981029120412...@ng43.aol.com>,
Wilzone <wil...@aol.com> wrote:
>In reply to Booker's comments: I too grew up racing dinghys, lets see,
>Optimist Pram, $2,300,
>Sunfish, $3700, Laser II, $5000? Trailer--?$$ New sail for Laser II $900.
- - Yeah, but you only have to spend that once and you can have alot of fun
on a Sunfish without ever racing. I could get a used sunfish for $900 and
at least have a shot at being competitive. A sunfish won't snap in half
if I let my crazy friend take it out for a spin.
>Wanna race in SF Bay? How about a J24 for about $50K ready to race. Hobie 21
>$17,000. 49er, $15,000, and those things eat $1000 sails for lunch.
- - Yeah, my point exactly. How many people in their twenties own and race
one of those things? How many people own and race one of those things
at all?
>Also, I can't think of one "one design" boat that is made by more than one
>manufacturer at a time. "One design" has always meant "one builder."
- - yes, and I think that's the reason that it will never work in windsurfing.
Unless the various manufacturers can compete there will never be enough
seed money and interest to get it off the ground. There are "homebuilt"
one-design classes. I think something like this in windsurfing would make
racing accessible to everyone. Everybody used to race when everybody had
an original windsurfer. Freestyle is coming back, maybe AVS can bring
racing back.
>I agree that windsurf racing is too expensive, but I disagree that he who
>spends the most money wins.
- - Dang, I meant to edit that to "being competitive" from winning, but
my modem flipped out in the process of writing that message. I do agree
that skill wins, but money gets you in the race.
> I raced the whole season on a production board and
>two (actually only one) race sails. I won Men's A fleet Cal Cup overall,
>beating a lot of guys who spent over twice as much money on gear, and have been
>doing it for ten times as long as I have. It is the racers, not the
>organizers, not the shops, not the manufacturers who insist on blindly buying
>new Mike's Labs year after year, actually paying money to be Mike's guinea
>pigs, testing his boards for $1500 a pop (more now?). I tried to offer an
>alternative, ONE I PROVED TO WORK BETTER FOR MANY SAILORS, and I am met with
>skepticism and scorn. I've even offered the production boards at my cost, no
>profit to me, and still they decline. Most of the guys I beat this year would
>have done better on my board. But they are afraid to leave the flock. Ted
>Turner once said "You will never beat anyone by following them." This is damn
>good advice. What I don't get is how these people think they are going to beat
>Mike on one of his own boards. It will never happen. Anyway, I digress. The
>bottom line is yeah, it is too expensive, but it doesn't have to be. If you
>want to race next year, I can set you up for about $2000, and you won't have to
>blame your equipment if you lose. And it's still the cheapest form of racing
>you will find around here.
- - Maybe, but $2000 for a setup that will only be competitive for a year or
two is still too rich for my blood. The problem is that until you have a
one-design class it's always tempting to trade $$$ for skill, hoping that
the latest go-fast will make the difference in your racing.
- - Until I can race and be competitive on the toys I go out and play
with everyday, I won't be racing. Anybody want to start a Bic Veloce
288 class ?
- - I really think that AVS with it's low threshold of planing could
open up racing to alot more people. I still think it will never happen
without a stable design.
- - Booker C. Bense
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Jonathan M Richardson
: Also, I can't think of one "one design" boat that is made by more than one
: manufacturer at a time. "One design" has always meant "one builder."
Nope. Several of the Olympic classes have more than one builder. In
principle, any manufacturer can build an IMCO board using the
published specs. I believe that this is a requirement when the design
is picked as an Olympic class. There probably is not much room for
another manufacturer of IMCO boards, though.
PS All racers should try an IMCO race at least once. It's great to
concentrate primarily on technique, tactics, and proper rigging rather
than equipment choice.
-Jonathan (US233)
Jonathan M Richardson
International Mistral Class Organisation Limited
1 Kings Close, Lymington, Hampshire SL41 9LU England
Tel: + 44 1590 688081 Fax: + 44 1590 688085
E-Mail:10030...@compuserve.com
URL: http://www.imco.org/
ONE PAGE SAYS IT ALL:
INTERNATIONAL
* There are more than 60 Countries currently sailing & racing the One
Design world wide.
* All 5 continental areas had representatives present at the last
Annual Council Meeting 16.10.98 and 38 countries present had voting
rights
* The six medals in Savannah went to 6 countries in 4 continents
* 10 countries in the 1998 World Championship womenUs fleet in the top
20
* 13 countries in the 1998 World Championship menUs fleet in the top
20
* Second only to Laser in SPA & Hyeres in 98 P100+ from * nations
racing interntionally in Asia
* Biggest fleet in WomenUs Windsurfing Pe.g 200 at the Nationals in
China; 63 @ the Worlds
* Smaller countries are signing up P not just the rich ones
* Continental Regatta Series & Ranking Lists outside Europe enable
development of national squads & mean they can gain international
experience close to home inexpensively
* The Class is determined to leave a legacy behind following all major
regattas P IMCO encourages the development of local race management
teams in each continent.
PROFESSIONAL
* An experienced Executive Committee - members from five continents
run the Class to provide superb racing and promote the advantages of
the Mistral One Design
* World Championship Qualification Sytem ensures top quality as well
as representative fleets
* Transparent accounts prepared by the UK accountants Redman & Roker
annually
* Health oriented: proper training programmes mean injuries are very
low.
* Gold standard Measurement Rules & effective procedures recognised as
2nd to none
* Equal chance for all P One Design Class Rules are rigourously
applied
* Measurement Seminars implemented to ensure effective Class Measurers
world wide
* Encourages dialogue with coaches and sailors at IMCO Championships.
WELL EQUIPPED
* Mistral One Design: 30.000 + identical One Design boards built to
date have been made from the same mould and remain class legal P
Junior & Youth squads can be started at small cost.
* One Design allows the cream to rise to the very top at minimal cost
* Committed manufacturer will supply the One Design to 2000 and
beyond, even if the Class is not re-selected for the Olympics in 2004
* Equipment problems are actively solved, not swept under the carpet.:
In Savannah, the One Design was acknowledged as the best supplied
equipment at an Olympic Regatta, ever
* The One Design 2000 can be sailed in all windspeeds from 6 > 35
knots
COMMITTED
* Communication: www.imco.org Site is hit by up to *5 countries
regualrly; continually updated; 50% of entries & fees made
electronically.
* Classic Fleet for the Weekend Warrior to help swell the Grass Roots
* Open: IMCO encourages the development of new ideas and is open to
dialogue with other classes
* Continuity and stability in a world in financial turmoil, why force
change?
IMCO is a solid rock on which to build your future Olympic windsurfing
squads.
IF IT'S NOT BROKEN, WHY TRY TO FIX IT ?
Directors: Ivor Hopkins & Bill Mason (Treasurer)
IMCO International Ltd., Company No. 2965563 (England & Wales)
Registered Office: 4 Park Place, North Road, Poole, Dorset BH14 0LY
ma...@my-dejanews.com
<gilwo-28109...@239.san-francisco-08-09rs.ca.dial-access.att.net>,
gi...@worldnet.att.net (Gil Woolley) wrote:
[snip]
>
> Will, with full respect for your racing and windsurfing
> skills, "If, Dog, Rabbit"!
>
From my experience in racing planing dinghies (505's and FD's) and
windsurfers:
Races are won based on two variables: boat speed and distance traveled.
If you strike the proper balance in attempting to maximize the former and
minimize the latter, you have a chance of winning.
In light wind racing, the former is not so much a matter of degree, as it
would be in heavy air, but a matter of planing or not. That's a big
difference. If you can consistently plane through a light air race, you can
make up for a lot of extra distance traveled (e.g. due to poor tactics,
missing marks and re-rounding them, or, on a more positive note, chasing
gusts all over the course to stay on a plane when others may be slogging).
Planing comes easier to people with the proper gear, the proper will and
athletic ability to pump (not legal in dinghy classes but de rigeur in
windsurfing) themselves onto a plane, rider skill in maintaining a plane, and
low rider weight/good rider weight to strength ratio, as well as a few minor
factors.
Will told us that his board (which, btw, is of a brand he sells in his shop,
probably due to the fact that he believes in the product) is superior based
on the fact that he came in near the top of the production fleet in a
particular race, despite many brainfarts on his part (increasing distance
sailed by missing a mark, decreasing ability to plane by not making damn sure
the drainplug on his board worked prior to putting in).
I don't think the facts support that conclusion, at least not the extent of
the facts we know so far:
Will sailed in a not very competitive fleet (old equipment, etc.). His board
may have been superior to most of the stuff in the race, but it may still be
below the benchmark for the best production stuff out there. Was the fleet
representative of the latest and greatest equipment, competently sailed?
Will sailed in a light air race in which most folks spent a lot of time
slogging while he planed. This could be explained by any combination of the
following: a superior board, superior sail relative to the fleet (wouldn't
you agree that your Windwings have pretty good low end?), low rider weight
(didn't you mention that you're not very heavy?) relative to the fleet, good
positioning on the course relative to the fleet, good technique relative to
the fleet, etc.
Notice the frequent use of "relative to the fleet" in the above. If you want
to establish once and for all the superiority of your board over what else is
out there on the market, you're going to have to do a little better than
this.
As far as the criticism re. Will's apparent whining about the conditions or
organization of the race: racers criticizing a race organizer for decisions
as have apparently been made here is a frequent occurence. If justified, it's
necessary feedback for race organizers. If unjustified, it's a great release
for the pent-up frustration inevitable in racing with inconsistent
conditions. Will has decided to stick with racing, taking the frustration as
part of the game. Good for him. I've decided a long time ago for myself that
the impact of the conditions on my enjoyment of a race is too high for me to
consistently enjoy racing windsurfers. As a result I no longer do.
The game of 'dog/rabbit' is popular among racers in any class. It makes for
lively conversation over beers after racing and can serve as a motivator to
improve your performance next time. It brings into focus things that you need
to improve. It can also be annoying if it has an air of "I rock, and the only
reason I didn't win is..." followed by a bunch of dog/rabbit type BS.
I don't know Will. I therefore can't judge if that's what was going on, or
whether he was simply debriefing his performance. If it's the former: quit
whining. If it's the latter: maybe you want to be more careful so you're not
misinterpreted as a whiner.
Enjoy your racing.
Andreas
-----------== Posted via Deja News, The Discussion Network ==----------
http://www.dejanews.com/ Search, Read, Discuss, or Start Your Own
ma...@my-dejanews.com
> At least here in the Bay Area, one of the major reasons is racing here is
> very high end and the cost of entry in terms of skill, time and committment
> and mucho $$$$$ is something that very few will endure.
>
That, together with Frank Weston's well reasoned point that, unlike dinghy
sailing, windsurfing is a ton of fun even w/o racing, are the two main reasons
that have kept me out of racing for a long time now.
In a boat, just sailing around by myself, I get pretty bored pretty quickly.
There's no real incentive to push the envelope. Racing dinghies is like a
completely different world from just sailing them for the heck of it. All of
a sudden, there's a lot of adrenaline flowing. That's worth the extra hassles
and pains and frustrations and costs that go along with racing. Note that
most dinghy racing is one-design. Once you've gotten yourself a competitive
boat and learn to take care of it, it'll remain competitive for a while. Even
racing club boats can be a ton of fun, since everyone is racing the same
stuff and it's skill, not budget, that decides the race.
To equalize the playing field to where you're sailing against other sailors,
not against their budgets, you have to play the equipment game. You're also
competing not only with their budgets, but also with their skill at picking
the right sail/mast/boom/fin/board/mast step position/strap position combo
for the day. A lot of variables. The thrill of knowing that the only
difference between you and the other sailor is in skill is very strong, the
thought that you might have beaten him/her based on $$$, lucky choice of
fins, etc. can be a very hollow victory.
Add to that the fact that on a good day, when racing is tons of fun, you could
be out freeriding and still get a ton of adrenaline (if you're really
competitive, you can get instant feedback on how you're doing by drag racing
your buddies), and your incentive to put up with a bunch of frustration to get
the thrill of racing is significantly less than it would be if you were
comparing dinghy sailing to dinghy racing.
Add to all of that Frank's good point about the relative shortage of really
well organized races, and you're onto something. I've seen national level
amateur events both here and in Europe that were so poorly executed (mostly
from lack of experience) that similar performance in the Friday night racing
series of a local yacht club would have caused an angry mob of competitors
boarding the committee boat and making the race committee walk the plank (and
they tend to be very polite and forgiving vis-a-vis the gracious volunteers
doing committee duty).
Maybe if there were a well organized one-design fleet based on something more
fun than an IMCO, I might get back into it; until then, I'll go freeriding.
ma...@my-dejanews.com
wil...@aol.com (Wilzone) wrote:
> In reply to Booker's comments: I too grew up racing dinghys, lets see,
> Optimist Pram, $2,300,
> Sunfish, $3700, Laser II, $5000? Trailer--?$$ New sail for Laser II $900.
> $17,000. 49er, $15,000, and those things eat $1000 sails for lunch.
Yes, but most of those will be competitive for a good long time. In 1994, a
couple friends of mine won the Flying Dutchman Nationals in a boat built in
the early 80's. The suit of sails was two seasons old (granted, after the
regatta week they were no longer competitive). The third place boat was of
the same vintage and after the regatta sold for approx. 60% of its original
price.
Yes, dinghies are expensive to buy new. But you can be competitive at a
national level in used boats, and you can use them for an awfully long time.
Will you be able to be competitive on your production board two seasons from
now? What percentage of your cost will you be able to get out of it after
over a DECADE of racing it?
> Also, I can't think of one "one design" boat that is made by more than one
> manufacturer at a time. "One design" has always meant "one builder."
FD's: built in Britain, Germany, Austria by three different builders. They all
licensed the concept.
Lasers: built for the Americas by Sunfish/Laser. Built in Europe and Asia
under license by local builders.
420's and 470's: Something like 4 different builders.
505's: at least two builders in Europe. I think one in North America.
International Optimist: Built by something like a half dozen companies (no
license needed).
Optimist Pram (the American version): not sure if you need a license, but you
can also buy them from different builders.
Granted: most of the classes that are leading edge designs are proprietary to
one builder. They also don't tend to be the ones that everyone and their
mothers are sailing. They further tend to not be Olympic (which is a great
way of getting tons of resources poured into developing young sailors: once a
class is Olympic, the national sailing associations sponsor all kinds of
clinics, races, subsidies, etc.).
> I agree that windsurf racing is too expensive, but I disagree that he who
> spends the most money wins. I raced the whole season on a production board
and
> two (actually only one) race sails. I won Men's A fleet Cal Cup overall,
> beating a lot of guys who spent over twice as much money on gear, and have
been
> doing it for ten times as long as I have.
Agreed. As in recreational sailing, there's a lot of people out there who
engage in serious gear fetishism. This may be a case of aging guys buying
virility extenders (hey, I'd rather see that than a bunch of red sportscars
at the beach), or it may just be an attempt to get the best equipment money
can buy, coupled with a limited understanding of how to make the best use of
it. Was it Barnum who said that there's a sucker born every minute?
It is the racers, not the
> organizers, not the shops, not the manufacturers who insist on blindly buying
> new Mike's Labs year after year, actually paying money to be Mike's guinea
> pigs, testing his boards for $1500 a pop (more now?). I tried to offer an
> alternative, ONE I PROVED TO WORK BETTER FOR MANY SAILORS, and I am met with
> skepticism and scorn. I've even offered the production boards at my cost, no
> profit to me, and still they decline. Most of the guys I beat this year would
> have done better on my board. But they are afraid to leave the flock. Ted
> Turner once said "You will never beat anyone by following them." This is damn
> good advice. What I don't get is how these people think they are going to
beat
> Mike on one of his own boards. It will never happen. Anyway, I digress. The
> bottom line is yeah, it is too expensive, but it doesn't have to be. If you
> want to race next year, I can set you up for about $2000, and you won't have
to
> blame your equipment if you lose. And it's still the cheapest form of racing
> you will find around here.
Yes, $2,000 can buy you some nice stuff. It's probably not a complete quiver,
but should cover you through most of the racing season. It's still a lot of
money for a set of gear that then needs extra space in your garage, on your
vehicle, etc. and has a fairly narrow range of use. If I spend the same
amount I need to be competitive in local racing on stuff for freeriding, I
won't have to replace it all next year, and I have just covered a wider range
of conditions to have fun in. That explains my individual resource allocation
towards freeride gear, along with my decision not to race.
Earlier in this thread, someone said there probably wouldn't be a huge
groundswell for racing unless there were a one-design class that's fun to
sail and stable over at least ten years. Given the pace of development in our
still far-from-mature sport, this seems unlikely anytime soon. Which brings
us back to your argument above that one-design racing in boats isn't all that
cheap either.
A lot of the activity is going away from the older, stable classes (like the
470, FD, 505, J24) towards the more state of the art newer designs (Melges
24, 49'er, etc). I must assume it's because these boats push the envelope.
There's a performance penalty to staying with a stable one-design, and people
tend to like the kick they get out of a higher performing design. Which means
that the old-style model of one-design racing as we once knew it may be
pretty dead as well. So, if you're already conceding defeat to the push for
higher performance gear and the associated costs, i.e., if you are embracing
what's effectively open class racing, you're right that the cheapest way to
do that is windsurfing.
Berkeley Windsurf & Snowboard
>
>
> - - Until I can race and be competitive on the toys I go out and play
> with everyday, I won't be racing. Anybody want to start a Bic Veloce
> 288 class ?
in my first windsurf race ever. I used a Gaastra 2X 6.5m rec. sail.
Everyone else was on 7.5s. I had the smallest sail and board there, but
I finished 15th out of 32 racers. You hit the line on time, make your
transitions, and get anywhere near nailing the lay line and you will
finish in the middle of the pack. Often the guys who are fastest in
testing are slow on the race course and vice versa. You'd be suprised
how much it's NOT about equipment, especially at windier, shorter
courses like the St. Francis Friday night series. Recreational
equipment can do very well there in the right hands.
> - - I really think that AVS with it's low threshold of planing could
> open up racing to alot more people. I still think it will never happen
> without a stable design.
Lots of people are buying Seatrend All-Stars with no conception or
interest in how deadly fast a race board they still are. Fact is, it's
just a fun board to sail that you can race if you want to.
The above said, I must confess my story of my goal last year being to
enter and race the whole Cal-Cup on one sail (7.5) and one board
(Seatrend 70). I did get caught up in it, though, and eventually found
myself spending more and more money to buy speed. Some things worked
(fins), some didn't (custom board was slower).
So I guess my point is, you are more competetive than you think you are
on what you have, but beware the temptation--don't fall into the
speed-for-dollars void. I did, to a lesser extent than most, but it can
happen. It's really up to you.
--
Will Harper
mail to: bwa...@slip.net
http://www.slip.net/~bwands
**********************************************************************
Berkeley Windsurf and Snowboard Windsports
1601 University Ave. 1595 East Franciso Blvd
Berkeley, CA 94703 San Rafael, CA 94901
(510) 843-9283 (415) 459-1171
**********************************************************************
Don Fukushima
everytime
>I've come to the conculsion that 99% of winning is getting the right gear
>( at least at the introductory level). Racing will never be other than
>a minor niche for those with too much money and too much time until there
>is one or more popular one design classes. It's too bad, I always enjoyed
>by people with more skill, I hate being beat by people with more money.
I would say it does not take much money to get in the racing game if you buy
last year's equip. For the most part, it will get you in. What makes
racing so interesting is that once you get past the basics of equipment,
there is a tremendous number of other factors which determine who wins
consistently over time. Just getting a clean start takes a number of
seasons and dozens of starts. This alone makes a huge difference. Clean
transitions make a huge difference too. I am amazed at watching the very
best tack and gybe. The tacks are so fast, if you blink you miss them going
from one side to the other. The smoothness and speed through full speed
planing gybes separates anyone who does not fully plane by at least 50
yards. So, I would agree that equip is a big factor to get you in but this
is just the "entry fee". Time on the water to improve skills requires far
more than just writing checks for new gear.
Also, even if you buy new gear, unless you spend lots of time getting
everything dialed in, you are not going to go fast or win anything. For
sure, someone on older but totally dialed in gear will outrun new gear
poorly tuned.
Don Fukushima
race sails. I won Men's A fleet Cal Cup overall, beating a lot of guys who
spent over twice as much money on gear, and have been
doing it for ten times as long as I have.
As I posted in the last note, I agree there is much more than gear that
makes one win consistently as you have done this past season. Even though
you are relatively new to racing windsurfers, you bring tremendous assets to
the very first race's start line. Having prior dingy racing experience
prepares you for good position at the start and start line tactics like
barging. Hey, I only first heard of this tactic this season, so I am at a
serious disadvantage just having everyone just trash me on starts. Then you
have much more experience on the race course, understanding wind shifts,
headers and footers, lay lines, etc. I still don't have a clue about have
this stuff.
Then there is the tremendous time on the water you have gotten over past
seasons. If I am not too far off, you must have averaged at least 100 days
on the water each season. This puts you in the top 5% in terms of time on
the water. This year I finally broke 75 days and did not get fired. Your
hobbies are your business. Most of us are not so fortunate.
So do not forget to see racing thorugh the eyes of others who have much less
relavent experiences.
> It is the racers, not the organizers, not the shops, not the manufacturers
who insist on blindly buying new Mike's Labs year after year, actually
paying money to be Mike's guinea pigs, testing his boards for $1500 a pop
(more now?).
Until you showed up this year, the Lab was just about the only thing on the
Berkeley carpet. To share my perspective; I basically do not know diddly
shit about windsurf racing. The only thing I know how to do is copy and
emulate others and try to assess how I am doing against them. For sure, my
goal has always to eliminate the equipment factor. Since there is no
one-design class, this means trying to buy and run the same stuff you see
everyone else around you racing on.
Also, since I am the novice, trying to get tips, especially tuning tips,
requires me to ask someone who is running similar equipment. Same sails,
fins, boards. Honestly, it's pretty hard to ask anyone on the carpet if a 48
or 50 works better on a Roberts 28.
> I tried to offer an alternative, ONE I PROVED TO WORK BETTER FOR MANY
SAILORS, and I am met with skepticism and scorn. I've even offered the
production boards at my cost, no profit to me, and still they decline.
As I see it Will, you own a board shop and have run on at least three race
boards this year. As a dealer, you can just buy a few, try them out, and
sell them off as demos, still making a small profit. You had both Seatrend
AVS boards and the Roberts 28, maybe others. Not many people can be in a
similar situation. Even if you had offered these three boards to me at
cost, I would have spent a lot of money and had to go through the painful
process of selling used race boards. It is not easy.
> Most of the guys I beat this year would have done better on my board. But
they are afraid to leave the flock.
I agree that some of the heavy guys who have marginal boardhandling skills,
specifically tacking would have done better on your boards. Every heavy
sailor I saw this season that bought a 26" Lab started going much better. I
am sure they would have experienced similar improvements on the Roberts.
Then again, maybe it would have been a Seatrend they bought from you and got
stuck with it while you went back and forth and back to the Roberts.
Maybe the sailors are a bit afraid, Will. You have the resources to do the
testing for us this season and have clearly shown to me that at least one
production race board gets you in the game, equipment wise. After that it
is sailing skills and racing tactics experience which will move you higher.
> What I don't get is how these people think they are going to beat Mike on
one of his own boards. It will never happen.
I do not get your point. Mike is a hell of a sailor and would be the hell
out of everyone on his or other's boards. This is an example of other
factors having a greater influence on consistent winning than equipment.
Don
Don Fukushima
>- - I really think that AVS with it's low threshold of planing could
>open up racing to alot more people. I still think it will never happen
>without a stable design.
Just a different viewpoint. I do not thinkt the AVS has anything to do with
low wind planing. The trend toward wide boards is making the planing
threshold go down. Mike seems to be making more non-AVS boards now, although
they are wider, averaging between 25-26 1/2".
Don
Don Fukushima
quickly.
>There's no real incentive to push the envelope. Racing dinghies is like a
>completely different world from just sailing them for the heck of it. All
of
>a sudden, there's a lot of adrenaline flowing. That's worth the extra
hassles
>and pains and frustrations and costs that go along with racing
What got me into racing was a combination of personal factors. I have been
sailing for 16 years now and until about 5 years ago, I sailed only high
wind sites - Crissy, Rio, Peninsula sites, the coast. My biggest sail was a
5.2 and I always planed, just had to drive a ways.
My daughter turned 5 this March. 5 years ago, with a pregnant wife, my
windsurf career was in jeopardy, a similar condition I had had seen in many
other new-dad situations. I live very close to Berkeley and it became
nearly a survival move to start sailing there; the other option would be to
quit since I was in no way going to get time to make the drive. I could
have counted the times I had sailed Berkeley in the prior decade literally
on one hand.
I had to a bigger board and sails; I think the 5.2 became the smallest,least
used sail in the quiver. I got very bored just sailing around between the
marina and Emeryville. After a season of this and noticing these white
boards go flying past me and upwind out of sight, I started trying the chase
them the next season. Clearly I had very little chance of catching these
folks on race gear and they would seem to turn into specks in what seemed
like a few seconds.
So, I started getting into buying racing equiment, not to race but just to
go sailing around the Bay. After awhile, I started getting more chummy with
the racers, and ultimately started to dabble with a real race or two. After
another season or two of playing around, I finally got the race fever and
the racers became really helpful by waiting for me to catch up and start to
sail with them. At that point, I started to just taste what racing was
about and decided to get serious. This occured over about three seasons and
this season was the first where I ran all the race series. It payed off
since I got first overall in the Mens A fleet in CalCup. Of course, there is
the whole "top gun" fleet for more competition. ;-)
>Maybe if there were a well organized one-design fleet based on something
more
>fun than an IMCO, I might get back into it; until then, I'll go freeriding.
Not sure where you live, but we are pretty lucky here in the Bay Area.
There are two race series each season - the CalCup and the St.Francis Yacht
Club Friday Night Series. The Cal Cup is run by very committed and
experienced volunteers. It is great fun and well run. If it don't blow,
don't blame the race committee. The St. Francis is basically a
professionally run series and very well run, too. There are other well run
races like the Bay Challenge and Classic and Pro-Am as well. So there is no
shortage of well run racing here. I suspect other parts of the country and
globe are not so fortunante.
Don
Jonathan M Richardson
: Maybe if there were a well organized one-design fleet based on something more
: fun than an IMCO, I might get back into it; until then, I'll go freeriding.
Don't knock it till you try it!
-Jonathan (US233)
Barry Ritchey
Booker,
I have to disagree. I've been racing on a shoestring budget
for about 7 years now. I've raced the US Open every year
since about '90, done the Gorge Blowout a half dozen times,
attended regional races. I race in the Amateur Masters
division. Probably the most financially competetive group of
racers.
My fleet of racing gear consists of only one race board and
2 or 3 race sails. I have one carbon boom, two race masts,
and two fins for the board. I usually keep the board and
sails for two or three seasons. My gear is good for
whitecaps up to about 25 mph. If it blows more than that,
more uncommon that winning the lottery, I grab B&J gear. If
it doesn't whitecap, I either whine a little, grab the
Windsurfer One-Design and make a fool out of myself, or just
watch.
Extremes of my performance range from winning the Corpus
Christi Screamin' Reach overall, a 3rd in course racing at
the Open, and last place at the Toucan drifing on a Revo.
Downhaul, outhaul, and a little good attitude can go a long
way to overcome a lack of gear. I often remind myself that
ONLY one person will ever win a race. Everybody else was
either a loser or had fun trying.
I plan on attending the Nationals this year with only one
board (a backordered Aguera Seartrend), 7.2 and 9.0 (or 8.3)
Wingwings, 43 and 50 cm fins, and supporting beer... I meant
to say gear. I don't plan on winning (it seems that the
older I get - I'm 41 - the tougher my ego becomes), but I DO
plan on having fun and learning.
-Barry Ritchey
The flatwater geek from New Mexico
NM-0
> - - I've tried windsurf racing on and off over the last 15 years and everytime
> I've come to the conculsion that 99% of winning is getting the right gear
> ( at least at the introductory level). Racing will never be other than
> a minor niche for those with too much money and too much time until there
> is one or more popular one design classes. It's too bad, I always enjoyed
> dingy racing, even though I was pretty bad at it. I don't mind being beat
> by people with more skill, I hate being beat by people with more money.
>
> - - Several one design classes have almost succeded, but they were all tied
> to a single manufacturer. Until there is a design that can be built by
> multiple manufacturers and is stable over the period of 5-10 years, I
> predict that the average age of windsurf racers will steadily increase.
> After all, how many 20-somethings can afford to blow $5000 a year on
> a hobby? This is a problem with windsurfing in general, racing is just
> the extreme case.
>
> - - Windsurfing: the sport that eats its young.
>
Stuart Hall
Richardson) wrote:
>Wilzone (wil...@aol.com) wrote:
>
>: Also, I can't think of one "one design" boat that is made by more than one
>: manufacturer at a time. "One design" has always meant "one builder."
>
>Nope. Several of the Olympic classes have more than one builder. In
>principle, any manufacturer can build an IMCO board using the
>published specs. I believe that this is a requirement when the design
>is picked as an Olympic class. There probably is not much room for
>another manufacturer of IMCO boards, though.
Just one point: there is room for multiple manufacturers only as is
necessary to get worldwide product. Take the Laser for example. It
is only built in the US by Vanguard in Rhode Island. Live in CA and
want a Laser? Gotta order it from Vanguard.
>
>PS All racers should try an IMCO race at least once. It's great to
>concentrate primarily on technique, tactics, and proper rigging rather
>than equipment choice.
>
>-Jonathan (US233)
- ratboy
aka stuar...@geocities.com
(don't be surprised if you email me and the response
comes back from here - earthling.net is just a
forwarding service)
Wilzone
peices. We were talking about ONE long distance race which I didn't even
finish. And the only reason I got talking about it is because Don was using my
results in that race to discredit my board. All I was saying is that it was
unfair to discredit my board based on the results in that one lousy race, which
I totally fucked up, and which was a fucked up race to begin with. I'm not
whining, that's the way it goes, but DON'T harsh on my board based on one lousy
race that had nothing to do with anything except a bad set of circumstances.
I was also explaining how brilliantly the board performed the day before,
taking a 9th in a PRO class heat (Alf Imperato, etc..) despite the fact that
the largest sail I had that day was 7.7, and the pros and everyone who beat me
were on 8.3s at least, some on 9.0s. And me with an off-the-shelf, non race
quality fin. Not whining, fucking boasting if anything, but now people will
get on me for that too. It's the board, guys, THE BOARD. That's the point of
what I'm saying.
Furthermore, I had to explain how I still got 2nd overall in Production class
despite 3 dnfs. I explained that there weren't a lot of guys in my class, BUT,
there were at least 4 guys on all state of the art, current year stuff,
including two sponsored riders from Kinetic, one of whom beat me overall by
simply finishing the long distance race that I did not.
Furthermore, as if I need to say it again, in the overall points score for the
Cal-Cup series for 1998 I got first in class, beating 6 guys I know had new '98
Labs and current year sails and fins, none of whom were rookies such as myself.
I am not Bjorn--the board fucking rocks. That was the point of the whole
thread--not me, the board. The board rocks. Period. Comprende?
Wilzone
Or were you talking about another year?
Wolfgang Soergel
[..]
> Berkeley carpet. To share my perspective; I basically do not know diddly
> shit about windsurf racing. The only thing I know how to do is copy and
> emulate others and try to assess how I am doing against them. For sure, my
> goal has always to eliminate the equipment factor. Since there is no
> one-design class, this means trying to buy and run the same stuff you see
> everyone else around you racing on.
I get the impression you basically do have a one-design class....
> Also, since I am the novice, trying to get tips, especially tuning tips,
> requires me to ask someone who is running similar equipment. Same sails,
> fins, boards. Honestly, it's pretty hard to ask anyone on the carpet if a 48
> or 50 works better on a Roberts 28.
Depend's probabely on a lot of variables (rig, sailor weight/ size,
technique,...) , so you need to find out for yourself anyway.
--
Wolfgang
Wilzone
start--I was near last off the line all summer). AND, who knows what Mike will
come up with over the winter. AND you may be too light for the 28 in big chop.
But there will be a new set of Aguerra shaped race boards from Seatrend this
spring, and all I can do is make my stuff as available and try to be as helpful
as possible. I suppose what I've learned from people's comments on this stuff
is that the real answer isn't a fast production board that will only save you
$500 over a custom, if you have to get a new one every year anyway. I think
people really want a board they can race for a long time, and I can't offer
that any more than Mike can. We may be getting closer, though. A one design
class would be nice, but we are pretty far from it. Booker proposed the
Veloce288 (actually not a bad choice if you think about it). I would propose
the Roberts 28. Someone else will suggest something else. Mistral tried it (I
think) to link the Screamer to the IMCO board, but it was too small. One
problem with a one design is that sailor weight is SO important in windsurfing,
it would be hard for a 220 lber to compete with a 150 lber or vice versa
depending on conditions. I think IMCO is great, and you can do it in SF.
There is also "Fleet 18" sailing a bunch of old boards on lakes and doing a lot
of racing. I don't know too much about them, but they are still going strong
according to Amy at Windwing.
Anyway, we should maybe start a new thread, getting people's opinions on what
they want to see in windsurf racing (if anything) in the future, in the SF
area, and in other areas as well, and even comments on nationals. USWA could
possibly get involved to sanction a shortboard one-design class. I dunno.
W
Marc A. Lefebvre (US-775)
season is winding down so people are bored and will find fault with what ever you
say because they would rather be sailing rather than shoveling snow already. :)
Anyways, I totally believe and can appreciate what you are saying about your
board. I have had some results from last year that were probably beyond my ability
but my gear carried me through. To that I credit my gear. On the other hand, this
season I have been on state of the art gear and couldn't break into the top three
no matter what I did. To that I discredit my ability. Slalom Racing in New
England is getting better and better and there are no more gifts. I am sure this
is generally the case in SFB. I was fast this season but my transitions totally
sucked, thus my results sucked. Dry jibes are not always enough (although they
would have helped in a few races we did when the winds blew a solid 40mph+).
So, anyways, my point generally is that in hi-wind, it is the rider that matters,
in low-wind, it is the gear that matters.
Good luck next year with your Roberts AVS. I am glad to see that you have gotten
the racing bug. I totally enjoy it because it TRULY helps your all round skills.
There are some new wide shapes coming out from AHD (Diamond Tail, 60-70cm wide)
that look like they may be in the league with the Roberts/Drops/Seatrend AVS's out
there. I think AHD is taking the approach, that its the width in the tail and mid
point matters, rather than an AVS approach. I guess we will see in the spring.
Ciao...
Wilzone wrote:
> Geeze, man is it hard to write anything on this newsgroup without being shot to
> peices.
---
Marc Lefebvre (US-775)
Cape Cod Windsurfing Association, President
US Windsurfing Northeast Regional Director
Gear: AHD/NeilPryde/Fiberspar/Finworks
Email: lefe...@ultranet.com
URL: http://www.ultranet.com/~lefebvre/
Motto: "Windsurfing is life, the rest is just details!"
Marc A. Lefebvre (US-775)
Great attitude!! I have seen this locally too. You can do alot with today's
gear. All you really need for 90% of the racing in the mainland US is one course
board about 2-3 sails. Heck my "ALL OUT" racing quiver is 1 course board
(8mph-18mph), 1 slalom board (18mph - 30mph), 4 fins, and 4 sails (5.9m, 6.6m, 7.8m,
and 8.7m). Th-Th-Thats it! This is what I call my "Formula-42" racing quiver. I
would say this is the middle of the road as far as getting all the gear necessary to
race in course or slalom from 8 to 25mph. You DON"T need 2 course boards, 2 slalom
boards, 8 fins, and race sails from 5.2m to 9.0m in 0.2 increments to win at the
amateur level.
BTW, I will see you at the 1999 US Nationals in SFB with my Formula 42 setup.
;)
L8rrr....
Barry Ritchey wrote:
> Booker,
>
> My fleet of racing gear consists of only one race board and
> 2 or 3 race sails. I have one carbon boom, two race masts,
> and two fins for the board. I usually keep the board and
> sails for two or three seasons. My gear is good for
> whitecaps up to about 25 mph. If it blows more than that,
> more uncommon that winning the lottery, I grab B&J gear. If
> it doesn't whitecap, I either whine a little, grab the
> Windsurfer One-Design and make a fool out of myself, or just
> watch.
>
---
ma...@my-dejanews.com
"Don Fukushima" <df...@ix.netcom.com> wrote:
.2 and I always planed, just had to drive a ways.
>
> My daughter turned 5 this March. 5 years ago, with a pregnant wife, my
> windsurf career was in jeopardy, a similar condition I had had seen in many
> other new-dad situations. I live very close to Berkeley and it became
> nearly a survival move to start sailing there; the other option would be to
> quit since I was in no way going to get time to make the drive. I could
> have counted the times I had sailed Berkeley in the prior decade literally
> on one hand.
>
Living in Albany, I can see the problem. I am married, but we don't have kids
yet. So driving to Crissy or the Peninsula is not a big deal on weekends.
Weekdays are a different issue. I have often wistfully looked out of my
window while driving by the Berkeley Marina on my commute home, knowing that,
at 200# and with a Screamer 278 and a 6.5 Retro, there was no way I could
join the gang of racers planing out by the pier unless the wind picked up
another 5 knots.
I used to own race gear (a 9'5" Basset) when I lived in Texas, where that and
a 7.5 (this was before the 8+ sails became viable) was my most frequently
used gear (in 5 years of living in Texas, only twice did I use a sail under
5sqm).
Moving to the Bay Area, I became spoiled very quickly. I could easily get
three days of sailing a week (I usually work from home at least one day a
week, which means I can get away early enough to make it to Crissy if there's
not enough wind in the East Bay) during the summer season. That seemed like a
great deal to me. Based on that, however, I don't want to race since I'd
rather freesail on those three days, as opposed to being locked into a
specific location, waiting for another start, etc.
> I had to a bigger board and sails; I think the 5.2 became the smallest,least
> used sail in the quiver. I got very bored just sailing around between the
> marina and Emeryville. After a season of this and noticing these white
> boards go flying past me and upwind out of sight, I started trying the chase
> them the next season. Clearly I had very little chance of catching these
> folks on race gear and they would seem to turn into specks in what seemed
> like a few seconds.
On windy days, it tends to be fun playing with the racers on reaches. As long
as you're not going head to head in an upwind battle, decent recreational
gear is quite competitive in drag racing. Not a real contest, though, since
you're not on comparable gear.
>
> So, I started getting into buying racing equiment, not to race but just to
> go sailing around the Bay. After awhile, I started getting more chummy with
> the racers, and ultimately started to dabble with a real race or two. After
> another season or two of playing around, I finally got the race fever and
> the racers became really helpful by waiting for me to catch up and start to
> sail with them. At that point, I started to just taste what racing was
> about and decided to get serious. This occured over about three seasons and
> this season was the first where I ran all the race series. It payed off
> since I got first overall in the Mens A fleet in CalCup. Of course, there is
> the whole "top gun" fleet for more competition. ;-)
Congrats on your great debut season. Sounds like you had a great time. I'm
not surprised that you found the racers helpful and welcoming. Contrary to
what most people believe, most of the people who are heavily into racing are
very eager to not only increase the size of the fleet, but also its
performance level. It's much more fun that way, and you learn a lot if you
have a bunch of people pushing each other in a competitive manner.
>
> >Maybe if there were a well organized one-design fleet based on something
> more
> >fun than an IMCO, I might get back into it; until then, I'll go freeriding.
>
> Not sure where you live, but we are pretty lucky here in the Bay Area.
> There are two race series each season - the CalCup and the St.Francis Yacht
> Club Friday Night Series. The Cal Cup is run by very committed and
> experienced volunteers. It is great fun and well run. If it don't blow,
> don't blame the race committee. The St. Francis is basically a
> professionally run series and very well run, too. There are other well run
> races like the Bay Challenge and Classic and Pro-Am as well. So there is no
> shortage of well run racing here. I suspect other parts of the country and
> globe are not so fortunante.
>
As I said, I do live in your neighborhood. I've looked at those race series,
and have been tempted (I used to love racing a long time ago when I lived in
Germany, and when I lived in Texas, racing dinghies and keelboats was my
substitute for windsurfing, as there were too many days well below planing
threshold and I had to get my adrenaline fix somewhere). What bugs me is that
it's not one-design. I don't want to have to spend the money necessary to be
competitive. Production class might be an option, but a lot of the better
sailors are sailing customs. That would seem to be the fleet to be in, and
right away you're back into the arms race.
Don't get me wrong. I think racing is a lot of fun. It's also a sure fire way
to increase your skills quickly, and for a competitive person (like myself),
it can be addictive. The reason I'm not getting into it now is that there's
no one-design class I'd love to race more than I like to freesail. IMCO just
doesn't do it for me.
If there were a fleet that made a commitment to race, for two years,
exclusively on, say, Mistral Explosions or Seatrend AllStars, with every
racer having to register a maximum of, say, three fins, two sails, and one
board; and if that fleet decided early on that it would do both course and
figure-8 slalom racing (to keep things interesting), I think I'd be in.
Actually, I'm almost certain I'd be in.
Until then, or until development slows down significantly such that production
boards carry an almost imperceptible performance penalty, I'll be freesailing.
See you on the water,
ma...@my-dejanews.com
>
> : Maybe if there were a well organized one-design fleet based on something
more
> : fun than an IMCO, I might get back into it; until then, I'll go freeriding.
>
>
> -Jonathan (US233)
>
Jonathan:
Excellent point, so let me clarify what was an overly broad brush-type of
statement.
I've sailed the IMCO. It's a great board for recreational sailing in light
air. It's a good one-design racing fleet in up to moderate winds. It gets
really interesting from a survival standpoint in 25 knots and above. So far,
so good.
When I lived in Texas, I didn't have a lot of wind to play with. IMCO would
have been a godsend. Unfortunately, there was no fleet to play with. So
instead I did a lot of dinghy and keelboat racing.
Now I live in the Bay Area. On any given weekend during the summer season,
it's fairly likely that with less than an hour's worth of driving, I can
reliably go to a site that gives me a 2-3 hour B&J session. My biggest board
is a Screamer 278; biggest sail: Retro 6.5; my weight is 200#. I could race
IMCO, but I get more of a kick freesailing shortboards in these conditions.
If the conditions were less reliable, all things being equal, I sure as hell
would have an IMCO board strapped on my roof. Since I'm lucky enough (and
have to put up with high cost of living/housing and nasty traffic to pay for
it) to live in the SF Bay Area, I forgo IMCO racing and go freesailing
instead.
If there were a one-design class more suited to the local conditions (i.e.,
shortboards), I'd be very interested, as it would combine the two of the
three coolest things you can do on the water, i.e., blasting around on a short
board and racing (the third one is making that short board get into the air,
twist through g-force turns, and shoot up and down swells and waves).
Don Fukushima
>>Heck my "ALL OUT" racing quiver is 1 course board
>(8mph-18mph), 1 slalom board (18mph - 30mph), 4 fins, and 4 sails (5.9m,
6.6m, 7.8m,
>and 8.7m). Th-Th-Thats it! This is what I call my "Formula-42" racing
quiver. I
>would say this is the middle of the road as far as getting all the gear
necessary to
>race in course or slalom from 8 to 25mph. >
Marc,
There has been talk about the '99 Nats using a Formula 42 rule. However, we
started this thread about the expense of racing. Even the 42 rule requires
one to spend quite a bit of $$. Assumming the gear needs to turn every two
years, and you replace half the equip each year, this is still a couple
thousand $$ investment. Many on this group would call this quite expensive.
See you next year.
Don Fukushima
long
>as you're not going head to head in an upwind battle, decent recreational
>gear is quite competitive in drag racing. Not a real contest, though, since
>you're not on comparable gear.
Well, I do not recollect anyone stating in this thread that race gear would
beat someone on a slalom board going on a beam reach in the right
conditions. Race gear will get you around a course faster than any slalom
gear. Overall upwind, downwind and reaching, planing through holes and
staying under control while way-overpowered, is clearly best handled on
proper race gear.
>> What bugs me is thatit's not one-design. I don't want to have to spend
the money necessary to be
>competitive. Production class might be an option, but a lot of the better
>sailors are sailing customs. That would seem to be the fleet to be in, and
>right away you're back into the arms race.
I think what Will is trying to do is admirable and if he(we, etal) can help
pull this off; there will be at least a production class next season. Until
you get enough folks willing to race on production boards, there will never
be a production class.
>
>Don't get me wrong. I think racing is a lot of fun. It's also a sure fire
way
>to increase your skills quickly, and for a competitive person (like
myself),
>it can be addictive. The reason I'm not getting into it now is that there's
>no one-design class I'd love to race more than I like to freesail. IMCO
just
>doesn't do it for me.
>
>If there were a fleet that made a commitment to race, for two years,
>exclusively on, say, Mistral Explosions or Seatrend AllStars, with every
>racer having to register a maximum of, say, three fins, two sails, and one
>board; and if that fleet decided early on that it would do both course and
>figure-8 slalom racing (to keep things interesting), I think I'd be in.
>Actually, I'm almost certain I'd be in.
>
>Until then, or until development slows down significantly such that
production
>boards carry an almost imperceptible performance penalty, I'll be
freesailing.
>
>See you on the water,
>
>Andreas
>
WILL - HEY DUDE! How about the local shops and the production board
builders do something to INCENT people to get onto production boards. You
have been very generous to offer boards at great prices; how about putting
up some money/prizes to sponor a production class. I know that if there
were some substantial prizes for the winners circle in production, I would
be more inclined to run in the production class.
This could be a big win-win for the dealers, manufacturers, and windsurf
sailors.