Windsurfing injuries & deaths
Andrew Smith
whether we're required to use them or not, is the implication that
windsurfing is dangerous. But HOW dangerous is it? Does anyone really
have any reliable information about the types and numbers of windsurfing
injuries or deaths? And is there a great difference in between beginner
& advanced sailors?
This was all a theoretical debate until three weeks ago when I dislocated
my shoulder on Maui. I was wearing a wetsuit, but not a PFD. If it
hadn't been for a passing sailor (thanks, whoever that was) AND the
lifeguard with a jetski, I'd have lost my rented rig, my life, or both.
Despite this injury, I'm still reluctant to wear a PFD because it's
annoying and silly-looking. I don't think I'm good enough for a helmet
yet (my speeds are hardly death-defying). I'd love for someone to
respond to this with some facts that will scare me into being more
careful, or at least justify my stupidity.
Thanks,
-andrew smith
and...@u.washington.edu
Alex Brown
In article <Pine.A32.3.91j.95072...@homer05.u.washington.edu>
Andrew Smith wrote:
...
>Despite this injury, I'm still reluctant to wear a PFD because it's
>annoying and silly-looking. I don't think I'm good enough for a helmet
>yet (my speeds are hardly death-defying). I'd love for someone to
>respond to this with some facts that will scare me into being more
>careful, or at least justify my stupidity.
Just think about how silly you would look in a coffin.
I don't have any statistics about WS injuries but have found that wearing a lifejacket
isn't annoying at all if it's the right type. I got one that was designed for kayaking, which means
that it's short enough so that it doesn't interfere with my waist harness and allows for
unrestricted arm movement. I don't remember the maker, though if anyone is interested, I can
look it up. I've been wearing it enough so that now I feel naked without it.
Unknown
the water. I wear a life jacket in most conditions 5.5m and below because at the speeds you can attain with
modern equip. any collision with another sailor can be disasterous to one or both. Also if you sail anywhere
near jetskis or skiboats a helmet makes a lot of sense. They pay me good money for what I know, and this
allows me to buy lots of toys. A bad head injury might just end my employment as well as my windsurfing.
I had a recent experience on San Luis Reservoir where another good sailor just kept getting in my face and
chased him down and explained the "rules of the road". As I was derigging he came up and made some
comment that I must be afraid on the water because I was one of the few wearing a helmet. I think my
reply made a lot of sense. I said " I wear my helmet for protection from guys like you, not from fear! I've
twisted some ankles and gotten leg cramps where my lifejacket may have kept me from getting separated
from my rig as I really can';t swim or tread water very well when my legs are not fully functional.
I can't give you any statistics but my experiences have led me to buy a good comfortable life jacket (Made
by Perception Kayaks) and I just got a new Hed Tech helmet from Barton at Hatteras Island Windsurfing .
The Hed Tech is very comfortable and fits like a glove. I hardly notice I've got it on.
SailQuik (rjac...@atc.ameritel.net)
DANA K. YANCEY
Andrew Smith <and...@u.washington.edu> writes:
>
>In the midst of the recent debate over wearing lifejackets & helmets
and
>whether we're required to use them or not, is the implication that
>windsurfing is dangerous. But HOW dangerous is it? Does anyone
really
>have any reliable information about the types and numbers of
windsurfing
>injuries or deaths? And is there a great difference in between
beginner
>& advanced sailors?
>
>This was all a theoretical debate until three weeks ago when I
dislocated
>my shoulder on Maui. I was wearing a wetsuit, but not a PFD. If it
>hadn't been for a passing sailor (thanks, whoever that was) AND the
>lifeguard with a jetski, I'd have lost my rented rig, my life, or
both.
>
>annoying and silly-looking. I don't think I'm good enough for a
helmet
>yet (my speeds are hardly death-defying). I'd love for someone to
>respond to this with some facts that will scare me into being more
>careful, or at least justify my stupidity.
>
>-andrew smith
>and...@u.washington.edu
>
As the day grew to an end, tired from some terriffic monsoon gusts, I
said to myself, "One more time."
I put on the harness. I put on my gloves. I put on my sun glasses. I
put on some sunblock. I wear tennis shoes for protection from the rocks
and a T-shirt for protection from the sun. The gust was great, really
great. To great for myself as well as many others on the water. Maybe
it was a down shear. All I know is the white caps were over my head and
the weight of my clothes, shoes and harnes was just to much for me once
I hit the water and lost contact with my board and rig. I couldn't
catch my breath, I was sinking with each stroke and scared as *&%#.
Where was my PFD? On shore where I wish I had stayed....
A motor boat operator thru me a PFD and I floated to shore. If I'm
crusin' I don't wear a PFD, if I'm screamin' I wear a PFD.
It can happen in a second and may be to late for you or a loved one.
Use it or LOSE it!
Jean Rystrom/Dallas Dick
wrote:
>
> In article <Pine.A32.3.91j.95072...@homer05.u.washington.edu>
> Andrew Smith wrote:
> ...
> >Despite this injury, I'm still reluctant to wear a PFD because it's
> >annoying and silly-looking. I don't think I'm good enough for a helmet
> >yet (my speeds are hardly death-defying). I'd love for someone to
> >respond to this with some facts that will scare me into being more
> >careful, or at least justify my stupidity.
>
> Just think about how silly you would look in a coffin.
>
> I don't have any statistics about WS injuries but have found that wearing a lifejacket
> isn't annoying at all if it's the right type. I got one that was designed for kayaking, which means
> that it's short enough so that it doesn't interfere with my waist harness and allows for
> unrestricted arm movement. I don't remember the maker, though if anyone is interested, I can
> look it up. I've been wearing it enough so that now I feel naked without it.
I've worn a PFD since I started windsurfing (I don't wave sail). I now
sail exclusively in the Gorge. I've never found the PFD to inhibit me. I
also use a short PFD so it doens't interfer with the hook. It keeps me
warmer in the cold weather.
I have worn a helmet for the last couple of years. When I first got the
helmet, I didn't think I was good enough to use it except in hing winds.
That day I got launched harder then I ever had before. I sailed back in
and put on my helmet. I've worn it ever since.
One thing to consider is the other bozos on the water. I've sailed in
conditions so crowded that I had to sail within 15 feet of people passing
the other way. If they lost it at the point, their mast could nail me.
Also, I've had a couple of experiences of wiping out and coming up just
when the mast decided to land on my head. With the helmet, I hardly even
noticed it.
One more thing, since I've been wearing the helmet, I've never lost my
Specs in a wipe out because they are on under my helmet.
As far as image goes, I was one of the first to wear a bicycling helmet
(Bell Biker, serial # 467) and now all the cool people do. Note the "cool"
cyclist that died in the recent Tour de France DID NOT have a helmet. I'm
sure his wife and 4 month old daughter appreciate that. You spend as much
on a helmet as you feel your head is worth.
Dallas
ramon
> first lesson. If there's enough power to rip the sail from your hands,
> the rig can give you a good shot.
>
> Sorry about the dislocation.
>
> If I'm fully powered, I wear a Protec. I plan to add to it a face
> protector soon, too.
>
As long as you hold on to the boom at all times, you will never get hit
by your rig.
I think it is more important to wear a wetsuit at all times, then to
wear a helmet or a life jacket.
Ramon
Hen...@unix11.com
silly wearing it. If you would, you'd leave the vest on shore ..
A good start are the vests used for skimboarding or jetskiing.
They look good _and_ fit snuggly to the body. They also offer
some impact protection. (I have an O'Neill, it's $130, but good)
- when considering leaving the life vest on shore, just think that
it's much quicker waterstarting with the vest on. Especially with
larger, cambered sails who like storing water in the mast pocket,
it makes a big difference to have an extra 4kg or so of lift when
you push the darn thing out of the water.
This is also an important point regarding looking silly. If you
waterstart quickly, you don't look silly.
- Use a helmet in tough conditions, i.e. big waves or high speed.
Use one which allows for good ventilation and that doesn't have
open-cell foam etc which could soak water and/or stink. Remember
that you loose a lot of heat energy over your head, so in cold
conditions, the helmet increases endurance.
- I use a vest also for a special wavesurfing thing that works
just locally, even there are lots of spectators and everybody
tries to be as cool as possible. Just ignore the crowd. Even
better: if the spectators only go by the looks, they are worth to be
ignored and you can be glad some preselection already took
place.
Cheers,
Henrik
MclAlex
hit hard in the head (by your mast, boom or board) and being stuck under
your sail or unable to catch a runaway board leaves you in a bad
situation. The head impact itself doesn't have to be hard enough to do
you in, just hard enough to disable you for several seconds...IMHO!
Jack Faller
:
: Despite this injury, I'm still reluctant to wear a PFD because it's
Once it gets to 5.0 conditions I usually opt for a helmet, but pass on the PFD.
looking silly doesn't cut it-- anyone wearing a helmet and a harness already
looks pretty wierd.
There is a downside to a PFD and that involves
what happens when you crash. With a PFD you stay on top and the mast and boom
comes down on top of you and you absorb all of the impact. If you sink for
a few seconds, the impact is taken by the water. I suspect there might
even be more injuries with a conventional PFD. I believe a specialized
compact inflatable PFD makes most sense. Admittedly, if you are knocked out
you won't be able to inflate it-- on the other hand you are more likely
to be knocked out wearing a conventional PFD.
--
Jack Faller
Deparment of Chemistry
Yale University
jack....@yale.edu
Jaime Cordera
Dean Karnazes (expert pro or near-pro sailor and perenial Windtracks cover
boy) was found face down in the surf a few years ago. Yeah, he made it,
thanks to his buddies, but...
As far as the rig hitting you after a crash, I agree with one of the
previous posters: just hold onto the rig, or at least, until your sure
you're clear.
Tom Patipov (local SFBay hero and clinic instructor) tells the story
of being an expert and then trying out helmets just for fun. It was really
irritating, because every time he jibed, the mast hit his helmet. Later,
he realized that the mast had ALWAYS been whizzing by that close (3/8 to
5/8 of an inch) to his head, but he never noticed it before. An unanticipated
bit of chop, a little bounce, a little gust: BONK !
I always take a helmet, and I always wear it when I don't feel I'm in
*complete* control of the situation: this means excessive kooks on the beach,
just plain too many people, I haven't sailed in gusty 40 knot winds in a while,
I might be trying a new manuver, whatever.
Getting bonked on the head, whether serious or not, definitely cuts down
the fun factor.
Except in waves, I ALWAYS wear a life jacket:
1) superior padding for crashes, alone or with someone else to share
the experience
2) extra warmth against the wind
3) extra convenience while waterstarting:
a) water doesn't get in my face as much. I have plenty of other
opportunities to have salt foam blown up my nose, and at a much
higher speed.
b) easier leverage getting equipment into place
c) less distance to get onto the board. Especially noticeable in
light wind conditions.
4) Things happen.
a) getting konked on the head. Life jacket improves surviveability.
b) equipment breakdown: spend the night on the bay. Life jacket
keeps you higher, face out of the water. Better visibility for
you (where was that board again ?), makes you easier to see for rescue.
c) personal injury: it's easier to recover if you're at least somewhat
floaty. Wetsuits aren't enough. If others need to work on you, you
are definitely easier to handle with the lifejacket on.
As to the silly appearance argument, that's just, well, silly. How
good can anyone look wearing a diaper with a prosthetic device/codpiece
sticking out of the front of it ?
As to inconvenience, any lifejacket made for active sports will take care of
this argument. The only ones that are inconvenient are the old, traditional,
"passengers as ballast" types, and those are kind of hard to get anymore.
In the final analysis, it's your life (or not).
Good luck,
Jaime
--
-----------------------------------------------------------------
Jaime Cordera ja...@netcom.com
<.signature under construction>
-----------------------------------------------------------------
ELennane
helmet. I'm like you, not the best windsurfer, however, there have been
three instances where I've been hit in the head by the boom and mast which
would have knocked me unconcious had I not been wearing a helmet. If
you're knocked unconcious in the water, its almost a sure bet you will
die. I had a friend knocked unconcious in a very slow moving boating
accident, no helmet, no life jacket, he sank so fast that we could get to
him, he's dead now. Get a helmet, they cost about $20 and are well worth
the money. And wear some sort of flotation (wetsuit, lifejacket etc)
Eric Lennane
Brian Cunningham
[snippage]
> ... I believe a specialized
> compact inflatable PFD makes most sense. Admittedly, if you are knocked out
> you won't be able to inflate it-- on the other hand you are more likely
> to be knocked out wearing a conventional PFD.
Something else to consider with a PFD... Most of the ones that we would use
sailing wouldn't do you any good if you get knocked out since they aren't
designed to float you face up. They are just designed to float you. A
person would have to wear something like what's used by the drag boaters (ie
really tall collar that blocks side vision, but floats face up). Then
you have to worry about not being able to see. An inflatable PFD makes
good sense to me, might have to get one. And I wear a helmet...
The Dog's Most Humble Opinion...
May your board be fast, your water be clean,
your gybes be smooth and far between...
Brian "Rude Dog" Cunningham /-------------------------------------\
Windsurfing Boardhead, NRA Life & | Owner, Proprietor, Brew Master and |
* bcun...@fd.dsccc.com * | Head Guzzler - Rude Dog Brewing Co. |
* All Usual Disclaimers Apply * \-------------------------------------/
Bic Hip Hop and Presto, Mistral Screamer, Tiga 260, Dynafiber, Windwing,
Gulftech, and a 1/2 ton Chevy chase truck :-) Life is Good....
Billwind
potential
for looking "geeky".
While I am a fanatic windsurfer (who normally puts in about 107 sailing
sessions a year), I have come to realize in my old age, that I have a life
outside
of windsurfing too. An injury caused by a conk on the head from my mast,
or drowning after loosing my rig in some of the conditions that we sail in
during
winter, would kinda put a damper on my family's plans for a happy life...I
always
wear a life jacket and helmet in non-longboard conditions, and have never
found
them to be either a hinderance, or a horrible fashion faux paus.
I am still disappointed after all my years of sailing in the Gorge, that I
don't
see more sailors down there using safety gear. The number of collisions I
have
witnessed, and the number of times I have rescued downed sailors who
really
could have used some lifejacket floatation is getting up into the multiple
dozen
range of occurances.
Slighly off the topic..
I am equally dismayed by the lack of safety sense
shown by some Gorge-ites when it comes to on-the-water practises and
courtesy shown at sites like the Hatchery (particularly by a few
well-known
team riders, who attempt to act radical on every move, and typically end
up
splattering at least one unfortunate downwind sailor during their average
session,
while going for that "Kodak moment" for the crowd on the rocks),
but then, I mentioned this topic last
year in this forum and got flamed severely for my opinions, so I will
leave this
topic to another thread...I am sure that this behavior by certain of our
younger
sailors is known to occur at other crowded, world renowned sites as well.
--Bill Nelson
grouchy old curmudeon
bill...@eskimo.com
Tacoma, WA
Walter Clark
>by your rig.
As long as you never fall off your upright board you dont get wet either.
Of course to do either you are either superhuman or not trying hard
enough...
Walter
Sting-a-ling-a-ding-dong
Andrew Smith <and...@u.washington.edu> wrote:
>
>Despite this injury, I'm still reluctant to wear a PFD because it's
>annoying and silly-looking. I don't think I'm good enough for a helmet
>respond to this with some facts that will scare me into being more
>careful, or at least justify my stupidity.
Well, Andrew, sorry that this won't scare you because our sport IS safe.
A helmet is recomended if it is 5.0 or windier. Last year the US Coast Guard
released a study of boating related deaths, and under windsurfing there was
less than 5 per year. Now, compare this driving your car and other activities
such as crossing the street, I bet more people die a year doing that. (Even
taking into acount the number of participants...)
---
+----------------------------+------------------------------+-----------------+
|Marc A. Lefebvre | lefe...@iatc.ed.ray.com |(508)490-2610 wk.|
|Software Engineering Lab | lefe...@ultranet.com |(508)490-2708 fx.|
|Electronic Systems Division | (US-775) | |
|Raytheon, Marlborough, Mass | "I'd rather be Windsurfing!" | M/S 2-2-2805 |
+----------------------------+------------------------------+-----------------+
| BIG Certified Instructor | My homepage: http://www.ultranet.com/~lefebvre |
+---Seatrend----Neil-Pryde---+----Rainbow-Fins----Bare---------Fiberspar------+
mbr...@sandia.gov
Dallas <ryd...@teleport.com> writes:
> As far as image goes, I was one of the first to wear a bicycling helmet...
>
> Dallas
========================================================================
Reply on using "bike" helmets for windsurfing:
If you want to wear a helmet while windsurfing, a bike helmet is better than no
helmet. But guess what happens to the foam on a bike helmet when you
continually get it wet? The EPS foam of the helmet liner, same as the core of
most epoxy/sandwich boards, soaks up water. Capillary action between the foam
beads/cells hold the water within the bulk foam. Water doesn't immedieatly
weaken the foam, but after time it will. Try to use helmets designed for
watersports that use a close cell foam. Most watersport helmets use either
urethane or EVA foam as liners.
John Gullotti
Brian Haddock
>In the midst of the recent debate over wearing lifejackets & helmets and
>whether we're required to use them or not, is the implication that
>windsurfing is dangerous. But HOW dangerous is it? Does anyone really
>have any reliable information about the types and numbers of windsurfing
>injuries or deaths? And is there a great difference in between beginner
>& advanced sailors?
I consider myself a fairly experienced sailor (windsurfing for about
14 years now) and I've had 3 occasions where I thought I was going to
lose it (maybe I'm just too much of a dork for this sport?)
Once involved getting entagled in the rig while trapped under the sail
so a life jacket and/or helmet wouldn't have hurt much. But the other
two times......
I once got caught in a storm (here in Tx they can blow in anytime with
little or no warning). This wind gusts were so high I couldn't keep
my rig together (this was a old Windursurfer rig where the mast just
pops into the board). When I went to reach the board the sail would
blow away. When I reached for the sail, the wind would actually pick
up my board and 'tumble' it accross the water. I never got the board
back but eventually I myself washed up on shore. Wasn't wearing a
life jacket... In this instance the high wind actually helped save me
because I washed up onto shore in only a few minutes. I swalloed a
lot of water but that was about it. Did I learn from this experiece?
Nope.
Second experiece involved getting launced in front of the board. The
sail fell across the board and caused it to continue to travel at a
pretty good clip. When I resurfaced - whack - I caught the nose of
the board right in my temple (of course I was not wearing a helmet or
a life jacket). I remember fighting not to black out for a couple of
minutes. I kept telling myself 'if you let yourself pass out your'e
going to drown'. Luckily I regained my senses enough to make it back
to shore. Did I learn from this experiece - you bet. I now always
wear a life jacket (yep it makes you look like a dork) and a helmet
(actually I think a helmet looks kind of cool).
Now that I have kids, I'd much rather be safe than sorry (I've now got
too much to lose if I make some kind of stupid mistake).
Brian F. Haddock
-- SparTech Software --
Burleson, Tx USA 76028
BHad...@ix.netcom.com [or] BHad...@aol.com
Pablo Rodriguez
> by your rig.
>
>
> Ramon
Never say never. If you are sailing overpowered and decelerate to zero in less than one
second due to unforseen circumstances such as a bad landing after
a jump,the chances are that you could lose consciousness before
you even know what hit you. There isnt a physical body in nature
that could fight momentum. If you go fast,protect your ass.
Yoshihiro Mizutani
>good can anyone look wearing a diaper with a prosthetic device/codpiece
>sticking out of the front of it ?
>
on the wetsuit looked silly...
Yoshi Mizutani
NLW TFW NM
enough to be spotted easily. It makes the Sheriff's body recovery task
easier.
Mike \m/
SideOff
Waddell creek because he WAS wearing a helmet. His helmet had too much
floation and so when he hit the water his body went under but his head
didn't. Wearing Pro-tech helmets with large foam pads is stupid. Wear
something with minimal foam and no floatation like a Gath helmet,
especially if you really plan to go off.
Before you learn to surfsail, learn to swim. Read Robby's article in
this months Windsurf Rag.
NLW TFW NM
twice, and I'm quite sure the helmet saved my live once. It has saved me
from hundreds of bumps, scrapes, and cuts. It will delay the inevitable
onset of skin cancer and cataracts (I have a visor on my face guard). The
appearance of all that hardware gives me extra room at crowded sailing
sites, too. But perhaps more important, as I learned in desert racing and
reaffirmed in windsurfing, the more armor I wear, the harder I'm willing
to sail. The harder I sail, the more I learn and the more fun I have.
The words "geek" and "dork" are not in my vocabulary. They exist only in
the minds of insecure people who give a crap what others think about their
appearance. How I look on the water may be your problem, but it isn't
mine.
But, man, I saw a guy putting on Depends before putting on his wetsuit
last week, in cas he had to pee in his suit. Now THERE'S case for putting
"geek" back in my vocabulary. Why, I just pull my wang out the neck of my
suit and try to miss my ear when I whizz....
Mike \m/ 8<)8-
Unknown
Helmets, good ones anyway, reduce the chance of being knocked unconcious to almost zero. There are a
number of other injuries and well not injuries (cramps, charley horses etc) that make wearing a PFD that is
suitable for windsurfing (I wear one made by Perception Kayaks) make a lot of sense. Ever try to tread
water with one or both legs cramped? I have and it's either excrutiatingly painful or you wait until the cramp
goes away and watch your board/rig drift away. As for increasing the injury potential by causing you to
float so the mast konks you, it just ain't! If I go into the water in a fall I go down for a few seconds in the
PFD, it's just that I don't have to work or tread water to come back up. I agree with everyone that PFD's are
not a good thing when surfsailing in big waves but up to about head high I think they still make sense,
especially when you are learning to surfsail.
ramon
I, wonder?
Are the people wearing helmets and pfd verry good swimmers?
I mean it is hard for me to get to my board(after I lost it) wearing
just a wetsuit and a harnas. If I had to wear a pfd I would never be
able to make it. That way I would have to swim back to shore every
time I lose my board.
And for the helmet, in the ten years of sailing I have done, I never
hurt my head. A helmet would make my head larger; so the change getting
hit, is a lot bigger.
I allways hold on to my boom, that way I can't get hurt, I allways
know where my board and rig are.
Ramon
ramon
> >by your rig.
>
>
>
> Of course to do either you are either superhuman or not trying hard
> enough...
>
>
> Walter
>
is really strong at that moment; so the rig and board will be blown
away from me, so it will not land on top of me.
Ramon
ramon
I allways do that, a suit of 4mm and it is yellow.
If you make sure that you have enough sharkfood, so they don't have to
start on you while floating(back to shore), if you could not swim fast
enough to get to your board.
Good luck,
Ramon
ramon
> whether we're required to use them or not, is the implication that
> windsurfing is dangerous. But HOW dangerous is it? Does anyone really
> have any reliable information about the types and numbers of windsurfing
> injuries or deaths? And is there a great difference in between beginner
> & advanced sailors?
>
> my shoulder on Maui. I was wearing a wetsuit, but not a PFD. If it
> hadn't been for a passing sailor (thanks, whoever that was) AND the
> lifeguard with a jetski, I'd have lost my rented rig, my life, or both.
>
> annoying and silly-looking. I don't think I'm good enough for a helmet
> yet (my speeds are hardly death-defying). I'd love for someone to
> respond to this with some facts that will scare me into being more
> careful, or at least justify my stupidity.
>
> -andrew smith
> and...@u.washington.edu
>
Two years ago someone got killed using a lifejacket. He was sailing
at the Lago di Garda in Itali. It is forbidden not to use a livejacket
when sailing over there. (but you don't have to use a wetsuit!?)
He fell, couldn't waterstart fast enough, could not swim away fast
enough and could not dive;
he lost his head by a hydrofoil.
I was sailing in Tarifa(spain) using a 3.0. I was really overpowered,
Wind was realy howling cross of shore. A gust hit me, and ripped
the boom right out of my hands.
I had to swim really fast to get back to my board, I would never have
made it using a live jacket, and I would probebly have floated all the
way to Brasil.
Ramon
Micky Balladelli
>I allways hold on to my boom, that way I can't get hurt, I allways
>know where my board and rig are.
Ramon has it right... holding on the boom, even though it may
not be obvious sometimes, can really avoid you some unexpected landings
on your gear.
I'm sh*t scared about that fin under the board, more scared than the eventual
collision of my head on the mast...
Micky
Glenn Woodell
says...
>But, man, I saw a guy putting on Depends before putting on his
wetsuit
>last week, in cas he had to pee in his suit.
Oh, you saw Keith?
--
Glenn Woodell - Windsurfing the lower Chesapeake Bay, Hatteras,
and anywhere else my surfmobile or my credit cards lead me.
"If you're not scared, you're not trying hard enough"
mbr...@sandia.gov
> someone commented on the "cool" factor:
> ...I now always wear a life jacket (yep it makes you look like a dork) and a
> helmet (actually I think a helmet looks kind of cool)...
My reply on the "Cool" factor: Isn't fashion stupid? What was once in fashion
and cool becomes passe only to become fashionable again (The vicious
"cool-cycle-circle"). Maybe in a few years it'll be cool to wear helmets and
even dorks will be flocking to the stores to buy a helmet as their ticket out
of dorkhood. In bicycling (road) it was cool to ride sans helmet...now it's
cool (for most) to have one. It's cool to have a tan (my pet peeve)...it's
even cooler to have skin cancer. It's cool to smoke...the coolest to get lung
cancer. It takes guts and courage to buck the cool. Funny how it's always the
dorks that blaze a trail to the next level of cool.
Barry---(cooldude@100%.dork)
Just a cutting-edge cool dork, waiting for the cool fashion cycle to make my
bell-bottoms and decade old Windsurfer One-Design cool again. Then you'll see
me shreeding 100% cool with my bell-bottoms flappin' in the wind...
Tom von Alten
: I'm sh*t scared about that fin under the board, more scared than the
: eventual collision of my head on the mast...
I'm more scared about that OTHER guy's fin...
_____________
Tom von Alten email: al...@boi.hp.com
Dan Brown
I'd say that's a good reason to wear a PFD!
My impression is that one prepares according to the
conditions: wind, waves, water, people, reach, etc.
If you are in a beginner's lake, it`s probably not
necessary to wear a PFD, a helmet, and carry flares.
As a rule I wear my helmet (got banged on the head
once pretty good) and (try to) sail with a buddy.
-Dan
--
////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////
****************************************************************
\\ Daniel C. Brown
|\\ Department of Computer Science
| \\ PDP Research Group
| \\ Stanford University
| \\ danb...@waldron.stanford.edu
<0/__\\ wind...@leland.stanford.edu
''_\_______- http://matia.stanford.edu/~danbrown/
(/~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
****************************************************************
\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\
Dan Brown
Can anyone confirm that Bill Reidel broke his neck
_because_ he was wearing the helmet? Maybe it was
because he was attempting a triple loop or something
like that. I find it hard to believe that the small
amount of flotation from a helmet would stop his head
from going in the water, thereby breaking his neck
when his body didn't stop.
Dan Brown
|> Are the people wearing helmets and pfd verry good swimmers?
|> I mean it is hard for me to get to my board(after I lost it) wearing
|> just a wetsuit and a harnas. If I had to wear a pfd I would never be
|> able to make it. That way I would have to swim back to shore every
|> time I lose my board.
If the pfd isn't too restrictive, it should help you swim
by keeping your body above the water.
BATES Steven
I don't mind if people do or do not wear helmets/lifejackets, it's
up to them. My opinion is this: nothing in life is 100% safe, you
can get injured or killed doing anything so if you worry about it
too much you would never get out of bed in the morning. I think it's
all about assessing the risk and deciding to take it or not.
Everyone know's flying has a small risk and so most people do it
without a second thought. I windsurf and snowboard and accept that
I may get injured or killed doing either. I think I have a fair
chance of NOT getting killed so I continue these sports without
any safety gear. I have never been injured windsurfing in 7 years
and only been injured a couple of times snowboarding (and I do it a lot)
and it wasn't my head anyway. Of course if you hit your head on the
mast a helmet will protect you. Just as if you're driving a car
and you have an accident a helmet will protect you, how many people
wear crash helmets in cars?
To summarize, it is my opinion that if you sail with due care and
attention for others and sail within your limits (or just a little
beyond) then windsurfing is a very safe sport and if governing bodies
decide to force safety restrictions then it's a shame if they haven't
properly assessed the real risks. ie. it's nutters who forward loop in
front of you onto the jetty to impress your girlfriend that get injured.
Steve
CH
Morne Lazarus
when wiping out is rare for most of us, which is great.
The danger of hitting the board is zero provided you can keep your feet
in the footstraps.
All that leaves is the rig and to injure yourself like this you'd have to
land on top of it. There are only 2 basic ways this can happen:
high speed catapult or
forward roll attempt.
In most cases holding on to the boom can protect you although it is possible
I guess to smash your face on the boom.
Personally I don't think it's worth sacrificing lightness or nimbleness for
wads of protective clothing when the risk is so low. Realistically, if you're
going to wear a helmet when windsurfing you might as well where one in your
car while driving, and live in constant fear of crossing the street. Besides
you probably have a much higher risk of dying of skin cancer, with all that
sun exposure.
I think it's much better to anticipate wipeouts and learn to wipeout nicely.
Everyone knows when they're crossing the threshold and losing control. All
they need to do is save there skin and wipeout gracefully then.
As for sailing at Maui: ok maybe I'd make an exception there,
but in most cases windsurfing is exceptionally safe.
-LAZman
Walter Clark
>Keep in mind that Bill Reidel (aka Stretch boards) broke his neck at
>Waddell creek because he WAS wearing a helmet. His helmet had too much
>floation and so when he hit the water his body went under but his head
>didn't. Wearing Pro-tech helmets with large foam pads is stupid. Wear
>something with minimal foam and no floatation like a Gath helmet,
>especially if you really plan to go off.
Who determined this was the case? What data supports the assertion that
you make regarding Pro-Tech?
Walter
SideOff
John Lechmanik
>Pro-tech helmets float really well. I use it for kayaking (white-water) and
>they are made to float your head above water.
>
>Just my personal experience.
>
>Brian (Sideoff?)
>
>Thanks for the tip on Pro-tech's. I rarely use mine but it's food for
>thought to realize that having your Pro-tech-encased head float can be
>dangerous.
>
>I'll have to think about this one
Interesting thread. I also have an OLD Pro-tech kayak helmet
(over 10 years old) and I occasional use it for sailing (over
5.0 conditions) but I have NEVER heard of the floatation in a
helmet hurting someone because of floatation. The helmet will
float, but it's floatation is MINIMAL. If you don't believe me,
try floating one in water and attaching weights to it to see the
true floatation value. I doubt it is very much. I'm willing to
bet that the floatation is under 1 lb. Also I have jumped off of
20' cliffs with a life jacket on (my younger whitewater days) and
yes you do float to the surface, but it doesn't stop you from
going underwater. And those were commercial whitewater life
jackets with have much more floatation that a standard PFD or
helmet.
Granted freak accidents do happen. I'm also sure that there were
accidents in which a seat belt costs somebody their life. But if
you take the number of people saved by the safety device it far
outweights the "freak" accident.
--
John Lechmanik
jo...@uclink.berkeley.edu
brun...@brunelle.crd.ge.com
<Pine.A32.3.91j.95072...@homer05.u.washington.edu>, Andrew
Smith <and...@u.washington.edu> writes:
>In the midst of the recent debate over wearing lifejackets & helmets and
>whether we're required to use them or not, is the implication that
>windsurfing is dangerous. But HOW dangerous is it? Does anyone really
>have any reliable information about the types and numbers of windsurfing
>injuries or deaths? And is there a great difference in between beginner
>& advanced sailors?
>
>This was all a theoretical debate until three weeks ago when I dislocated
>my shoulder on Maui. I was wearing a wetsuit, but not a PFD. If it
>hadn't been for a passing sailor (thanks, whoever that was) AND the
>lifeguard with a jetski, I'd have lost my rented rig, my life, or both.
>
>Despite this injury, I'm still reluctant to wear a PFD because it's
>annoying and silly-looking. I don't think I'm good enough for a helmet
>yet (my speeds are hardly death-defying). I'd love for someone to
>respond to this with some facts that will scare me into being more
>careful, or at least justify my stupidity.
Seems to me that if you're going fast enough to dislocate your shoulder,
then you're going fast enough to conk yourself on the head. I've always
hated the PFD law here in NY, but having to wear one (by necessity...
I've been pulled over on the water and fined $50.), you get used to it and
don't mind after a while...IF you get a decent PFD. There's lots available
that don't hinder you too much.
I still don't wear a helmet though, but my wife does. She goes a lot slower
than me when powered up, but I think its a confidence thing. On the other
hand, I've been sailing on a day when a windsurfer drowned in Saratoga
Lake (nobody knows what happened; rig found with PFD attached to board),
and on a day when a guy got beaned blowing a jibe in 40-knot winds--wasn't
breathing when they pulled him out, and was still in a coma last I heard.
I think I will wear a helmet if its blowing that hard again.
Regards,
The alchemist
Lee T. Lau
Pro-tech helmets float really well. I use it for kayaking (white-water) and
they are made to float your head above water.
Just my personal experience.
Brian (Sideoff?)
Thanks for the tip on Pro-tech's. I rarely use mine but it's food for
thought to realize that having your Pro-tech-encased head float can be
dangerous.
I'll have to think about this one
Cheers
Lee <l...@wedge.com>
SideOff
the time as he had a reputation for such things. When his accident
happened it was in the gold rush days of forward looping. If you lose it
up there with a lot of power you can hit the water HARD. Your rig can
accelerate you into the water, in fact. Imagine wearing a fat helmet
while waterskiing at 30 mph and having those protruding edges under the
helmet catch the water. Anyway, pick your gear accordingly.
Brian.
Wilton Hart
The following statement makes me wonder if this person has really ever sailed
in any real high wind situations. I have personally seen people get hit
in the face or head with a mast and come away bleeding like mad.
>Personally I don't think it's worth sacrificing lightness or nimbleness for
>wads of protective clothing when the risk is so low. Realistically, if you're
>going to wear a helmet when windsurfing you might as well where one in your
>car while driving, and live in constant fear of crossing the street. Besides
>you probably have a much higher risk of dying of skin cancer, with all that
>sun exposure.
The one place where a helmet is probably needed the most is on the beach.
Flying gear is a VERY REAL HAZARD. I have seen a flying mast on the beach
just about spoil a vacation.
Path: WILTON...@TEK.COM THE GORGE: Living on the edge of a HURRICANE
Lee T. Lau
>
>
> The following statement makes me wonder if this person has really ever sailed
> in any real high wind situations. I have personally seen people get hit
> in the face or head with a mast and come away bleeding like mad.
That's not fair Wilton, just because you're always on your 3.2 doesn't
mean you can rub it in :>
Michael Raider
says...
>
>sid...@aol.com (SideOff) wrote:
>>Keep in mind that Bill Reidel (aka Stretch boards) broke his neck at
>>Waddell creek because he WAS wearing a helmet. His helmet had too much
>>floation and so when he hit the water his body went under but his head
>>didn't. Wearing Pro-tech helmets with large foam pads is stupid. Wear
>>something with minimal foam and no floatation like a Gath helmet,
>>especially if you really plan to go off.
>
>Who determined this was the case? What data supports the assertion that
>you make regarding Pro-Tech?
>
As I recall, articles about the incident at the time stated that Stretch
landed head first on his sail. The theory was that the extra surface
area of the helmet prevented his head from punching a hole in the sail;
causing his neck to bend beyond its' limit, and resulted in a fracture.
So Stretch did break his neck because of the helmet, but not in the way
that SideOff claims. I wear a kayak helmet with foam padding, and I have
no problems. I can dive into the water and my head does not feel any
extra strain.
Mike
Grant Grundler
> Waddell creek because he WAS wearing a helmet. His helmet had too much
> floation and so when he hit the water his body went under but his head
> didn't.
I don't buy this arguement. The flotation provided by any *watersports*
helmet is not enough to cause this. If Bill had NOT been wearing a helmet
and gotten hammered the same way, he probably still would have broken
his neck due to the forces pushing his head one way and his body moving
another. I didn't see it happen - so my opinion is just based on 2cd hand
info.
And I think helmets *PREVENT* alot more injuries than they cause.
My wife works as a physical therapist in a Nuerological Rehab Unit and
she occasionally gets spinal cord injury patients. Of two that I recall,
one was caused by a "slippery slide" (plastic sheet with water on it)
and the other by "diving" over small shore break and hitting bottom.
Niether sounds like much force was required for the injury.
> Wearing Pro-tech helmets with large foam pads is stupid. Wear
> something with minimal foam and no floatation like a Gath helmet,
> especially if you really plan to go off.
> Before you learn to surfsail, learn to swim. Read Robby's article in
> this months Windsurf Rag.
All good advice - totally agree.
--
Grant Grundler Open Systems Software Division
grun...@cup.hp.com +1.408.447.7253
jdb...@oscar.idss.nwa.com
> My helmet and face guard have saved my right eye from complete destruction
> twice, and I'm quite sure the helmet saved my live once. It has saved me
> from hundreds of bumps, scrapes, and cuts. It will delay the inevitable
> onset of skin cancer and cataracts (I have a visor on my face guard). The
> appearance of all that hardware gives me extra room at crowded sailing
> sites, too. But perhaps more important, as I learned in desert racing and
> reaffirmed in windsurfing, the more armor I wear, the harder I'm willing
> to sail. The harder I sail, the more I learn and the more fun I have.
I own a helmet myself, and wear it when I feel uncomfortable, but man -
Darth Vader had less gear on his head. Don't you miss the wind through
your hair, the splash of water on your face once in a while, the feeling
of freedom you get by sailing in shorts and harness and nothing else ?
Either you are the most radical guy on the water, or maybe a bit over-
protective. Not that I care - as long as you are having fun, that is
the important part, I just find it kind of amusing.
John Banczak
jdb...@idss.nwa.com
Brad James
I think it's interesting that while probably only 10% of the sailors
where I sail (advanced SF Bay Area sites) wear helmets or life vests -
among very advanced sailors (solid loopers, etc) it's almost zero
percent - approximately 95 percent of all the people posting on this
issue seem to be *very* adamant helmet and/or vest wearers. I guess for
balance I'll give the non-helmet/vest argument, since either guys who
don't wear that stuff don't bother to read rec.windsurfing, or they are
afraid of getting attacked by you guys.
First life vests, I think that there are tradeoffs for everything, and
for flotation and padding, you give up swimming ability and ability to
duck underwater to get out of the way of miscellaneous things. I'd
rather have the ability to swim fast after my stuff if I get separated
from it, rather than more floatation and minimal padding. Freedom of
movement is also an issue, and I know there are less constricting (also
less floaty) vests - but why even bother at that point -still screws up
swimming, won't let you dive well, and probably won't keep your head
above water if knocked out. I will say this....if you aren't confident
in your swimming - wear the life jacket.
Now helmets.... I have to agree that helmets make more sense than life
jackets - but you guys make it sound like you need more head protection
in windsurfing than professional football or boxing (where they don't
wear helmets). I've taken a few whacks windsurfing while helmetless and
while wearing a helmet - mostly from other peoples masts (I think that
when wearing a helmet getting konked sounds and seems alot worse than it
really is). I think if you just hold on to the booms at all times then
you wont have a problem. Honestly, I think we all have much larger risks
of head trauma driving to the water than sailing in it - why aren't we
all wearing helmets while driving down the freeway???? For the sake of
the feeling of freedom (they don't feel good, and you can't hear a damn
thing), I take what I believe to be a small risk and not wear a helmet
while windsurfing - the same with driving my car. That said, if you
don't feel in control, then think about a helmet.
Anyway, people should do what they feel is best for themselves - and not
worry about others. That said, I think it's very uncool to make
references about *anyone* getting picked up dead by the sheriff or
whatever -- I think you need to step back, chill out, and go sailing
rather than being a rec.windsurfing nerd.
Brad
mbr...@sandia.gov
John Banczak wrote:
..I own a helmet myself, and wear it when I feel uncomfortable, but man -
Darth Vader had less gear on his head. Don't you miss the wind through your
hair, the splash of water on your face once in a while, the feeling of freedom
you get by sailing in shorts and harness and nothing else ?... Either you are
the most radical guy on the water, or maybe a bit over- protective. Not that I
care - as long as you are having fun, that is the important part, I just find
it kind of amusing...
==========================Reply Separator=========================
Reply: John's reply to a windsurfer dressed in every form of protective gear
is about the way I feel. This whole issue of what's right and wrong about
wearing or not wearing PFDs and helmets is not as as black and white as many
want to believe.
When I'm perfectly powered at Bird Island on a max'd out 6.2 and race board in
three feet of 80 degree water, I don't feel uncomfortable sailing with only a
pair of GLASS sunglasses, hat, shorts, and harness (bare feet too). If someone
else wants to wear a drysuit, crash pads, helmet with face mask, booties, that
fine... if that's what makes them comfortable TO HAVE FUN. I'm right and
they're right... we're both having fun.
If I percieve a danger that I can control and I don't do anything about that
danger, then I'm not going to have fun. If I'm on my 4.0 and it's "gusts from
hell" sailing and I'm always on the verge of getting launched, I'll have more
fun with my helmet on because I'll not be worrying about getting launched. The
other person may or may not want to put a helmet on.
What's wrong, is someone not wearing a helmet or any other form of protection
due to reasons of looking or not looking "cool." Please have a reason other
than that.
For those of you that never wear a helmet, try to respect the percieved (and
sometimes real) danger that some feel in crowded and extreme conditions. You
just may like a helmet for a bumper to bumper 3.5 day at Doug's.
And for those that always sail with a helmet, don't wear it while driving a car
to the sailing spot. And if you ever do sail naked, don't wear it then either.
And to everyone...don't forget to have fun. Pretend if you have to.
What's next on the debate agenda? Abortion or nuclear arms?
Barry Ritchey--...@sandia.gov
|) |)
|) |\
Randy Spence
>
> And for those that always sail with a helmet, don't wear it while driving a car
> to the sailing spot. And if you ever do sail naked, don't wear it then either.
>
Roger Nightingale
something does not sound right about Stretch's account of his accident. The
human cervical spine tolerance in tension is about 450 lbs (more for a young,
healthy, athletic male). I break heads, necks, and helmets for a living, so I
know a little about this. There is no way that the combined helmet bouyancy and
drag produced that much force, and even if it did, the retention system would
have failed first.
Remember why you wear a helmet - to protect you from a concussive head injury,
thereby keeping you conscious and lucid, thereby keeping you from drowning as
you lie face down on the sandbar you just hit (or whatever). Of the three
helmets marketed for windsurfing that I am aware of, the Protech is the best at
protecting your brain - it attenuates the most energy. The Gath, and the Wave
Warrior (the one I wear) are a distant second and third (not necessarily in
that order). The latter 2 protect against head lacerations, but don't do much
to absorb impact energy. The Protech is a lot better, but by no means good as
far as helmet standards go. Its important to note, that these helmets do not
meet standards of any kind, and that they fail the motorcycle (ANSI Z90.1, or
Snell), bicycle (ANSI Z90.4) and equestrian (ASTM 1163-88) standards miserably.
The bottom line is that if you're worried about getting knocked out and
drowning, buy the helmet with the thickest liner you can find - if your vanity
permits and you're phobic about head injuries, buy a football helmet. If you
just hate getting your head stitched up and think the risk of drowning is
minimal, then buy the lower profile, no-liner helmets. In my experience, it
usually takes a good pop to the head to convince yourself you ought to wear a
helmet. Having had it both ways, pop with helmet is much better than pop
without helmet. Helmet usage at Punta San Carlos went up way up one day when I
crawled out of the surf dazed, helmetless, and covered in blood.
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Roger Nightingale email: r...@occiput.lsrc.duke.edu
Department of Biomedical Engineering Duke University
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Jeff Feehan
factor in this accident. the induced drag of a helmet-sized
sphere moving at 20 kts through water is about 50 lbs. someone here
estimated the bouyancy force of the helmet at 1 or 2 lbs which
seems about right.
i have a protech helmet and usually wear it when sailing 5.0 or
smaller, especially in crowded places like the gorge. it saved me
from injury once, in the parking lot. someone's rig went flying through
the air and wacked me pretty hard in the head. i never saw it until
after it hit me.
jeff
>sid...@aol.com (SideOff) wrote:
>>Keep in mind that Bill Reidel (aka Stretch boards) broke his neck at
>>Waddell creek because he WAS wearing a helmet. His helmet had too much
>>floation and so when he hit the water his body went under but his head
>>didn't. Wearing Pro-tech helmets with large foam pads is stupid. Wear
Mike Eglington
I need to consider a helmet and PFD. Can someone tell me where to get them
in the SF bay area. I am interested in the kayaking kind.
Thanks
Mike Eglington
meg...@leland.stanford.edu
Tel: (415) 497-2316
Victor Adler
John Lechmanik <jo...@uclink.berkeley.edu> wrote:
>
>
>Interesting thread. I also have an OLD Pro-tech kayak helmet
>(over 10 years old) and I occasional use it for sailing (over
>5.0 conditions) but I have NEVER heard of the floatation in a
>helmet hurting someone because of floatation. The helmet will
>float, but it's floatation is MINIMAL. If you don't believe me,
>try floating one in water and attaching weights to it to see the
>true floatation value. I doubt it is very much. I'm willing to
>bet that the floatation is under 1 lb. Also I have jumped off of
>20' cliffs with a life jacket on (my younger whitewater days) and
>yes you do float to the surface, but it doesn't stop you from
>going underwater. And those were commercial whitewater life
>jackets with have much more floatation that a standard PFD or
>helmet.
>
problems on impact. It's the volume/surface area. When
you head-first in the water at 30+ mph, you want to cut
right through, you don't want to approach with a big surface
area because you will slow down very very quickly. It's
the rapid deceleration that causes injuries. A lower profile
helmet like a Gath might be better for this particular problem.
Just about any helmet is going to help more than it hurts.
Vic
Grant Grundler
> - Use a helmet in tough conditions, i.e. big waves or high speed.
Not to pick on Henrik, but people, the conditions don't matter.
I have heard of poeple failing in while uphauling and having the
mast bonk them on the head (result was 7 stitches). I've been hit
on the head when blowing a duck-jib. No stitches - but my mom freaked
when she saw me sail in with blood running down my face. It wasn't
especially windy then either. Since then I wear a helmet and
most of the people I know wear helmets as well. I still get
bonked on the head occasionally by the mast, boom, or board.
But it just goes clunk and no problem.
I have no statistics - which is what the orginal poster asked for.
I don't think you'll find any since cause of death or injury is
not always obvious. And injuries *PREVENTED* are never listed.
Also, I don't wear the PFD since my wetsuit (always wear one in the
SF Bay) gives me enough bouyancy and a PFD won't keep my head
out of the water should I pass out or get knocked out. For fresh
water sailing or water-start novices - it really helps alot to
get the sail out of the water and flying.
Just my $0.02....
Lee T. Lau
>
> I can't stand it anymore....
>
> I think it's interesting that while probably only 10% of the sailors
> where I sail (advanced SF Bay Area sites) wear helmets or life vests -
> among very advanced sailors (solid loopers, etc) it's almost zero
> percent - approximately 95 percent of all the people posting on this
> issue seem to be *very* adamant helmet and/or vest wearers. I guess for
> balance I'll give the non-helmet/vest argument, since either guys who
> don't wear that stuff don't bother to read rec.windsurfing, or they are
> afraid of getting attacked by you guys.
>
Brad, you've shamed me into coming out. I too never wear a helmet or PFD
while windusrfing.
Matter of choice I guess .. and since I do so many other dangerous things
I try not to sweat the possible windsurfing injury. I agree with your
reasons for not wearing gear wholeheartedly.
I bike in traffic a lot, this is probably the most dangerous thing I do.
While biking, I always wear a helmet
I whitewater paddle. This is probably the second most dangerous thing
I do, although driving may be more dangerous. I wear a helmet and PFD
I windsurf. I don't wear a helmet or PFD.
Somewhere, somehow, I've drawn an arbitrary lineat the danger level between\
kayaking and windsurfing.
My "near-death" windsurfing experiences have all involved wind or
gear failure, incident's where encasing my melon probably won't have helped
However, Wearing a PFD may have helped in some instances, and in one
instance (swimming after gear), may not have helped my survival chances.
Yes, it may be a lot safer to wear all that gear but I guess I just
feel like taking a risk... despite the consequences.
Sorry for the rambling and thanks for all your comments, interesting
thread
Cheers
Lee <l...@wedge.com)
John Banczak
> I'm sh*t scared about that fin under the board, more scared than the eventual
> collision of my head on the mast...
>
> Micky
>
I agree completely. Sailing in the Gorge about 5 years ago I got up on a big
jump, and in the process of trying to tweak it a little basically lost control.
My back foot came out, the board got twisted up, and I went catapulting to the
water in some weird position that allowed the skeg to hit me on my thigh, just
below you know what. It put about an 8 inch cut through my wetsuit, and into
my leg. Pretty nasty. Luckily the cut in the leg was more of a nasty bruise/
surface wound, but it did involve a fair amount of bleeding.
So - question to all of you protection freaks - what should I be wearing to
cover this ?
I'd also be more concerned in the Gorge about someone else's skeg hitting me
than I would be about smacking my head on the boom. I have seen a guy run over
another board with a burly True Ames and sheer the thing in half - no shit.
But - back to all these safety questions. I do like the idea of comparing the
number of injuries/fatalities of those on a windsurfer per 1000, vs. the number
in a car per 1000, the number crossing the street, the number on a bike (all the
helment wearers better have one on while riding a bike), or even compared to
the number hit by lightning. If all of those statistics point to windsurfing
being safer, arguement is over.
John Banczak
jdb...@idss.nwa.com
John Banczak
>
> If the pfd isn't too restrictive, it should help you swim
> by keeping your body above the water.
>
Absolutely not true. A pfd does not help you swim - it adds drag and
binds your body. Ask any strong swimmer. The body has plenty of floation
for swimming, and can do it much-much-much easier without a pfd on it.
John Banczak
jdb...@idss.nwa.com
Richard Hoover
sails below or anyone with some for sale?
>>>>>>
Neil pryde Vs 7.0 and V6 6.5 or 7.0,
North Sails Spectro 6.5 or 7.0,
Aerotech's Aerolite 6.5, GAASTRA's MC2x 6.7
Hot Sails Maui AWOL Velocity 6.5 or 6.9
World Sails 6.5.
1993 or better
Also how about a 5.0 new wave slalom by N.P.?
>>>>>>
My friend will appreciate any responses.
--
===
If ignorance is bliss, why am I not insanely ecstatic?
Richard Hoover rho...@ix.netcom.com
Chapel Hill, NC
John Lechmanik
>Also, I don't wear the PFD since my wetsuit (always wear one in the
>SF Bay) gives me enough bouyancy and a PFD won't keep my head
>out of the water should I pass out or get knocked out. For fresh
>water sailing or water-start novices - it really helps alot to
>get the sail out of the water and flying.
Grant, there are different types of PFD's and there are PFD's
which ratings are required to keep your head out of the water
when knocked out. Unfortunately, I can't remember which type off
hand (3,4 etc). But this is a US Coast Guard approved rating
system. This is usually more important in regards to whitewater
boating or regular boating in rough seas. I know that the
whitewater jackets that the White Water company I worked for
years ago, were required to have this rating. Of course from a
windsurfing point of view, these jackets would be way to bulky
for our use. Also a wet suit doesn't keep your face out of the
water either.
John Lechmanik
jo...@uclink.berkeley.edu
John Lechmanik
REI in Berkeley and Concord. REI has various types of
recreational gear (sorry no windsurfing) and carries Kayaking
supplies such as helmets and jackets. The whitewater jacket
built for kayaks has a high bottom end to clear the skirt you
wear when kayaking/canoeing. Personally I have just warn a
regular boating type life jacket, but I could see how that could
bother you with the harness.
--
John Lechmanik
jo...@uclink.berkeley.edu
mbr...@sandia.gov
>
> > I'm sh*t scared about that fin under the board, more scared than the
eventual
> > collision of my head on the mast...
> >
> > Micky
> >
===========================================================================
>
> I agree completely. Sailing in the Gorge about 5 years ago... I went >
catapulting to the water in some weird position that allowed the skeg to hit >
me on my thigh, just below you know what. It put about an 8 inch cut through >
my wetsuit, and into my leg. Pretty nasty...a fair amount of bleeding.
> So - question to all of you protection freaks - what should I be wearing to
> cover this ?
>
> John Banczak
> jdb...@idss.nwa.com
>
==========================================================================
Dear John,
You can buy the new "Samurai K-2 Wetsuit." This wetsuit uses Kevlar instead of
nylon on both sides of the neoprene. You can sail straight into even the
sharpest of G-10 and carbon blades at max speed without a puncture. You may be
killed from internal bleeding but that's your problem. It retails for a mere
$2499 (US). There are still a few development problems with the suit: You
have to buy it a little large (as in double size) since Kevlar isn't too
stretchy...and you can't sail in the daylight because Kevlar breaks down in
sunlight. The warranty is only valid for nocturnal sailing...
You could become the "Johnny Appleseed of Safety" and pursue the life-long
quest of grinding everyone's fin down with a solar powered grinder...
Or lobby congress to require all fins be constructed of rubber. Just like
those safe-but-fun fake knives and tomahawks we used to buy as kids...
Or for the highest level of safety, stay at **home** and just watch videos.
**When homebound:
**Always wear your helmet when meteor showers are probably - check out the
newsgroup: "alt.meteor.when" for shower predictions. I hope their predictions
are better than the weather service's)**
**Keep the volume down on those videos too. You don't want to become deaf.**
**PFDs aren't necessary for home use unless...toilet backup is imminent.**
Home this helps. Barry--...@sandia.gov
Don Ledford
: Absolutely not true. A pfd does not help you swim - it adds drag and
: binds your body. Ask any strong swimmer. The body has plenty of floation
: for swimming, and can do it much-much-much easier without a pfd on it.
Actually not all bodies have adequate flotation for swimming. I sink like a
stone. A thin shorty wetsuit in fresh water fails to make me bouyant. I can
swim for miles, but a serious cramp could put me on the bottom pretty
quickly. I wear a thin floatation vest in rough conditions.
Although I agree a PFD slows down a sprint there are very few conditions
where once in the water in a survival situation I would prefer to be without
a PFD.
- Don Ledford led...@networx.com
jdb...@oscar.idss.nwa.com
> Actually not all bodies have adequate flotation for swimming. I sink like a
> stone. A thin shorty wetsuit in fresh water fails to make me bouyant. I can
> swim for miles, but a serious cramp could put me on the bottom pretty
> quickly. I wear a thin floatation vest in rough conditions.
>
> Although I agree a PFD slows down a sprint there are very few conditions
> where once in the water in a survival situation I would prefer to be without
> a PFD.
>
> - Don Ledford led...@networx.com
Well - I agree, in a survival situation I would want a pfd also, but I wasn't
talking about a survival situation - I was talking about swimming. For swimming
to your rig (one giant pfd) a true pfd will slow you down.
In many windsurfing survival situations a pfd will hamper you also. Some are:
- classic pinned under sail and have to dive. This incidentally happens more
often to true beginners/intermediates than any other dangerous situation because they tend to sail in light wind. They are much more likely to fall backwards
with boom in hand and sail in tow vs. getting slammed because the wind doesn't
have the force required to slam them.
- classic need to get below a wave. This is an even more dangerous position to
be in especially with a pfd. If you have wave sailed or surfed you know that
there is a time things look a hell of a lot better from a couple feet under. A
pfd means you won't be getting that view.
John Banczak
jdb...@idss.nwa.com
mbr...@sandia.gov
> > Barry wrote:
> >
> > And for those that always sail with a helmet, don't wear it while driving a
> >car to the sailing spot. And if you ever do sail naked, don't wear it then
> >either.
> Randy Spence replied:
>
> One of the guys in our club wears his helmet in his Daihatsu. RMS
Barry's reply to Randy:
Does he wear it to bed or in the shower too?
Barry--...@sandia.gov
Sean Connolly Casey
board hit me dead center on my forehead. I had a helmet on and kepr on
sailing. I also attach a visor (Made by Salamander) that velcroes onto my
helmet and adds sun protection.
Gr8Jibe
> I break heads, necks, and helmets for a living
What a cool job!
May I nominate people who would be good subjects for your research?
Bill
Bruce Spedding
>at the Lago di Garda in Itali. It is forbidden not to use a livejacket
>when sailing over there. (but you don't have to use a wetsuit!?)
>He fell, couldn't waterstart fast enough, could not swim away fast
>enough and could not dive;
>he lost his head by a hydrofoil.
This guy was not killed by his life jacket, he was killed primarily by the
hydrofoil, and the main contributing factor was sailing in front of it.
>I was sailing in Tarifa(spain) using a 3.0. I was really overpowered,
>Wind was realy howling cross of shore. A gust hit me, and ripped
>the boom right out of my hands.
>I had to swim really fast to get back to my board, I would never have
>made it using a live jacket, and I would probebly have floated all the
>way to Brasil.
the operative word here is floated, perhaps long enough to be rescued, if you
had broken something (even yourself) the life jacket would have been a life
saver, if Brasil was a possibility then the main cause of death would have
been your decision to sail in offshore conditions.
I'm not pro-lifejacket but it doesn't help to conjure up negatives. I don't
wear a jacket, I do wear a helmet, I've never suffered any problems wearing a
helmet, I do find it hard to swim with a jacket but I would wear one in
circumstances such as sailing offshore etc. The only situation I have
experienced where a lifejacket might have been a liability is when I have been
trapped under my gear and have had to dive to get clear...
Bruce
Bruce Spedding
Industrial Research Limited (for a while longer)
b.spe...@irl.cri.nz
http://www.irl.cri.nz/~spedding
Randy Spence
The storm is coming. I took off half a day today and actually caught
air. This is not common this time of year in northern Alabama. RMS
Unknown
tendancy. I don't think you could drown in it if you waqnted to. It's not as bouyant as most of the others as
kayakers have to do rolls occasionally. Try one! SailQuik
Dan Brown
|> danb...@Psych.Stanford.EDU (Dan Brown) wrote:
|> >
|> > If the pfd isn't too restrictive, it should help you swim
|> > by keeping your body above the water.
|> >
|>
|> binds your body. Ask any strong swimmer. The body has plenty of floation
|> for swimming, and can do it much-much-much easier without a pfd on it.
|>
I am a strong swimmer (2.5 km a day) and hold to the statement.
It all depends on how restrictive the pfd is. If it rides high
when you're floating, it won't do. If it's snug around your
chest and gives you a full range of motion with your shoulders
and arms, it works.
-Dan
--
////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////
****************************************************************
\\ Daniel C. Brown
|\\ Department of Computer Science
| \\ PDP Research Group
| \\ Stanford University
| \\ danb...@waldron.stanford.edu
<0/__\\ wind...@leland.stanford.edu
''_\_______- http://matia.stanford.edu/~danbrown/
(/~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
****************************************************************
\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\
Dan Brown
|> John Banczak (jdb...@idss.nwa.com) wrote:
|>
|> : Absolutely not true. A pfd does not help you swim - it adds drag and
|> : binds your body. Ask any strong swimmer. The body has plenty of floation
|> : for swimming, and can do it much-much-much easier without a pfd on it.
|>
|> stone. A thin shorty wetsuit in fresh water fails to make me bouyant. I can
|> swim for miles, but a serious cramp could put me on the bottom pretty
|> quickly. I wear a thin floatation vest in rough conditions.
|>
|> Although I agree a PFD slows down a sprint there are very few conditions
|> where once in the water in a survival situation I would prefer to be without
|> a PFD.
Perhaps I should have mentioned that a pfd isn't going
to help you win an Olympic gold in the 100m freestyle,
but it makes swimming easier (at least for me -- I sink
pretty quickly without a suit too).
jdb...@oscar.idss.nwa.com
That is, without a doubt, the best post I have seen to date.
I think that sums up this entire debate over safety in a most excellent
manner. I'll keep sailing with bare essentials until that wetsuit is
develped further.
John Banczak
jdb...@idss.nwa.com
NLW TFW NM
NOISY). As for the wind in my face, I'm talking a visor like a cap, not a
face shield. I still get too many high-speed water jets in my eyes. And,
yes, after decades of desert racing at triple digit speeds I have become
overprotective. It has saved my bones, at least, in countless crashes over
50 mph, and I just feel naked (which can be a good thing, but not
conducive to aggressive sailing) without the helmet. The last time I
sailed without it still hurts (a scalp cut).
It's a trade-off, but I shudder to think that I might not have been earing
the helmet in the three crashes where it saved my eye or my life.
Since it's a personal decision,
my biggest single complaint is against people who advise others not to
wear them, particularly because it "looks geeky". After all, how many
windsurfing deaths have helmets prevented? Not many. Eyes, teeth, noses
--- that's a far different story. I'd rather wear a helmet all the time
than loose several teeth once, so I sacrifice some of the positive
sensations to prevent some of the negative sensations.
Mike \m/
Hong Chew
...
|>
|> I have heard of poeple failing in while uphauling and having the
|> mast bonk them on the head (result was 7 stitches). I've been hit
|> on the head when blowing a duck-jib. No stitches - but my mom freaked
|> when she saw me sail in with blood running down my face. It wasn't
|> especially windy then either. Since then I wear a helmet and
|> most of the people I know wear helmets as well. I still get
|> bonked on the head occasionally by the mast, boom, or board.
|> But it just goes clunk and no problem.
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
It has happened to me a number of times too. Always wear your helmet!
-Hong
|>
|> I have no statistics - which is what the orginal poster asked for.
|> I don't think you'll find any since cause of death or injury is
|> not always obvious. And injuries *PREVENTED* are never listed.
|>
|> Also, I don't wear the PFD since my wetsuit (always wear one in the
|> SF Bay) gives me enough bouyancy and a PFD won't keep my head
|> out of the water should I pass out or get knocked out. For fresh
|> water sailing or water-start novices - it really helps alot to
|> get the sail out of the water and flying.
|>
LA2WNDSRF
instructor for UCLA and teaching people in the Surf. I have a suggestion
that you try surfsailing with a PFD & Helmet, then try it without it-
since you're not too far from Waddell. And come back and let us know what
your personal results are. If you need any personal instruction ask a
Champion like Sideoff.aol.com, Brian Caserio knows quite a bit. Good Luck
and I'm serious, I would like to know what your results are!
Scott Carter,
LA Windsurf Club Director
LA2WNDSRF
sailing conservitively in over 20-25 knts. if that is your threshold mine
is 30-35 kts. but I still don't have a helmet and in 18 yrs I have never
bumped my head on the mast. Then again I have not attempted loops either.
Scott Carter,
LA windsurf director