Poll: Biggest Twin Cam sail you've enjoyed...
The Dog
and actually enjoyed?
Dog
~~~
http://www.mariner-sails.com
http://www.thedoghouse.net
LeeD
tension.
Cam was on my 6, and I forgot to bring that sail.
But I've had fun days sailing a 9.2 Simmer 07 NO cam.
Jerry McEwen
On 8 Jun 2006 08:14:45 -0700, "The Dog" <google_po...@yahoo.com>
wrote:
cmeisner
regards,
Christopher Meisner
rath...@gmail.com
blast. It was really fun racing and sailing angles that I normally
don't sail (usually sail freestyle/wave gear 5.2 or smaller).
a_m...@yahoo.com
> Informal Poll: So what's the biggest twin cam rec sail you've ridden
> and actually enjoyed?
The biggest twin cam I've ever liked was a 6.5 Gaastra. That was in
1996. Since then, I've tried others, in sizes up to 10m, and never
liked them. They just lacked range. If they had good power at the low
end, they topped out on speed and didn't have the high-end of the
range. If they were fast when powered and could deal with the higher
end of the range, they seriously lacked punch and pumpability at the
low end.
That said, I've tremendously enjoyed the 10.0 Retro. Bruce kept beating
up on me last season with that one in Formula racing, so I tried it.
It's certainly a very nice, rangy, powerful, and fast sail. When I
tried it, it was on the noodly FE alloy boom and a 75% carbon mast.
Coming from a full race sail with with four cambers and full carbon
spars, I thought it would be a dog - it wasn't.
I love the power, range, and stability of my race sails. I have to say,
though, that unless you're serious about your racing to an almost
obsessive degree, the large Retros are an excellent choice. The cool
thing about them is that they are so incredibly tunable. I see very
light sailors and heavyweights alike getting a lot of performance out
of them. All with seamless no-cam rigging, silky smooth rotation, and
lots of range.
If you're going to deal with cams, IMHO, get a Sailworks NX - either in
Formula or Slalom sizes, they're awesome performers. But if you don't
want a full-on race sail and you're looking at twin-cams, you ought to
take a look at the Retro as well - just forget for a minute what
no-cams are supposed to be like and demo one that's properly tuned to
your preferred sailing style, then compare it with those twin-cams or
other no-cams, You'll be surprised.
/Andreas
kurt
10.6 V8 on an older Equipe; sounds whacko, but was quite a bit of fun
once I had it dialed in. I was planing & pointing in almost nothing.
I own a 9.3 GTX, '02 vintage. Lottsa fun. When I get small, I don't
want cams; they get in the way.
Glenn Woodell
Glenn
On 8 Jun 2006 08:14:45 -0700, "The Dog" <google_po...@yahoo.com>
wrote:
>Informal Poll: So what's the biggest twin cam rec sail you've ridden
marc rosen
Marc
rod.r
8.5 GTX. All time favourite sail.
(PeteCresswell)
>Informal Poll: So what's the biggest twin cam rec sail you've ridden
>and actually enjoyed?
Ezzy Infinity 7.8. I *really* wish he hadn't gone to 7.5.
--
PeteCresswell
Charles L.
9.0 Windwing Hammer. The latest of 4 9.0's I've owned. The only one
I've liked.
wsurfn
MS2 8.5m2
Jerry McEwen
they are in my short list of sails I might like to own. What I'm
wondering is, why you miss 7.8? Is it just the size or is there
something else?
On Thu, 08 Jun 2006 19:24:13 -0400, "(PeteCresswell)" <x...@y.Invalid>
wrote:
Bill (NC/ME)
range I can use it in.
Erik will probably chime in. He seems to love his 10.6 v8. I believe it
has 2 cams too.
(PeteCresswell)
>What I'm
>wondering is, why you miss 7.8? Is it just the size or is there
>something else?
It's the extra .3 meters on a sail that would still fit on a 460 mast and the
same booms I use for smaller sails.
When my 7.5 wears out - hopefully soon due to over-use...-), I think I'll look
at AeroTech - who still make a 7.8. OTOH, who's to say that better design by
Ezzy wouldn't net out an extra .3m by somebody else?
--
PeteCresswell
Dan Weiss
compromises. They do go well, as Andreas and others point out, but
when you are used to pure racing sails the two cams can seem a bit
muddy unless tuned to a specific range. The great thing about most
twin cam sails is that they offer race speed at a beam reach without
all the perceived rigging hassels or race sails, and they perform
better than most race sails would on less expensive masts. That said,
they generally don't compare well where you would expect: at the very
limit of sailing angles. So no suprises, but that's where the race
sails really shine and do so without loosing any performance to the 2
cams at more moderate angles. That's why I don't own any 2 cams.
I have enjoyed the NP V8 7.5 (or thereabouts) and Gaastra GTX 9.8. The
NP was a 2001 model, the Gaastra a 2005. No true comparison to offer,
other than the expected differences due only to general progression of
designs. In other words, the GTX smoked the V8 based upon feel. That
may not be true today.
-Dan
LeeD
I'm not sure that's true at all ...in every case!
Say for example, you use something like current year's twin cam 7.5
vs full race 7.5 sail in moderate to marginal winds, same board.
Twin planes earlier, twin reaches faster, full race sail never gets
wind to hit it's much higher speed and control potential !!
Twin wins.
Obviously NOT talking Formula, as you can read the sizing
limitation.....and talking equal skill rider on equal board.
Erik
2005 10.6 V8, 2 cams. I like it because it rigs easily (if you follow
instructions), has a relatively short boom length and more performance
than my skills require. At first rotation was bad; I removed spacers
and learned to make sure the rotation started at the mast and
progressed to the clew. Know what I mean? Some reason that gets the
cambers around without sticking.
Jerry McEwen
On Fri, 09 Jun 2006 08:23:45 -0400, "(PeteCresswell)" <x...@y.Invalid>
wrote:
windmt...@yahoo.com
HUGEST (sp?) sail I own... it's an old NW Trilite 4.7... yeah dude...
just bought it at the Windance swap for 20 bucks... used it on Tuesday
in gusty Hatch conditions, and it was lifeless... not gonna use it
again, except for parts. I thought for sure 2 cams were gonna give me
a good powerful ride, but nope, it's lame, lame, lame, not the right
shape. At least I got a couple of good camber inducers for my smaller
single cam sails now.
-- Pete
--
the principal
"baffing lane" there is no place for twins. Tried many twin cams and
they all lack what is needed, at the moment; but I still use and enjoy
them. Recommend 4(+) cams of no cams, either you are in or you are out.
The only 2 cam sail I have felt is a true viable niche sail is the over
measured Tushingham 7.8 (it's not that big, but feels bigger) It is an
immensly "shaped sail" and extremely popular. An equivalent NP V8 has
minimal range (both on preferred masts) in comparison. But even this
glowing report on the Tush Lightning is tainted. (and yes there is some
real comparison here. Retro 8.0, GTX 8.0? Worldsails 7.5, Aerotech
freeslalom/sabre/rapidfire 9.0, there have been a bunch - Whatever).
The Tushingham is SOOOOO locked in you basically can't turn it off.
Great light wind day saver but when the day changes you find oursel
wanting a board change. Weird huh, the sail is so good you would rather
tune the sail and match fin and board to suit. I think that is a
testament in and of itself. Not planned, it is just the way it
happened.
Truth, 2 cams are middling. That isn't a bad thing! but the moments I
remember are no cams or 4 cams.
OK, now the best part of the 7.8 Lightning is the 460 mast at a 26cm
extension, and there is no noodle effect at all. It was designed around
that 460, not a 490 but it isn't 7.8 either, as noted previously, more
like a powerful 7.5. So the real deal is it powers like a small 9.0
(except in the lulls...duh) on a 460, totally locked down shape,
immense tuneable power, without a new mast purchase (my gut is that NP
or old flex top won't work) but check your boom. I think it needs a
217.
Example, not me....I'm big....so the 170lbs, skilled planer, Exocet 115
Speed Slider (or any small planmer). You will plane 1.5 knots below a
Formula/10.6 range and just be slightly fighting to keep that plane.
Lots of TOW powered up. That's an example of what light day skills can
do with this sail/ Realise it was chosen as a hybrid sail (Bic 293)
Leach is tight (relatively) without shortboard rangey downhaul. Truely
a magic sail. I don't have the latest one but from the complaints on
the web, it hasn't changed a lick in 5 years. ;-). This is a sail
available by other manufacturers clains, but I haven't found it. All
other 7.5 I've tried (and it's no short list) are not even close. The
one I own likes the soft bottom mast like a Fiberspar 6000 or (less so)
4800 but that is WHY it works. One final parting comment and it has
nothing to do with Tush, it's about what shape can do for you if you
know what you need/like/want these pics sold me, it WAS the shape I
wanted in a blaster. Nitro (Barry style balanced tension) soft bottom
with a perfect (to me) progression
http://www.tushingham.com/images/L3-s.jpg OR
http://www.tushingham.com/images/L3-s.jpg When it comes to shape I
guess it comes down to decades as a mainsail trimmer, good is good but
fast is better. The photos don't represent the sail at speed but it is
good here to. Of course there is defornmation with 7.5 on 460 when
maxed out, boom dent/flex or as I like to refer to it "collapse".
Because basically at that point you are f***ed but this sail it hangs
in there in those conditions, feels the same for any 2 cam and this one
absorbs it's failure. Neat sail.
Jerry McEwen
windmt...@yahoo.com
> Can you hear me crying for you, Pete?
I know folks here in the Gorge who only own 1 sail... a 3.7. Yup,
we're a bunch of spoiled wind snobs... but then again, we sail on a
river. Unless we get at least 20 knots of wind here, it's not much fun.
Good sailing sesh last evening down memory lane... what a great day for
a b-day... wind filled in very nicely 4.2 between Hatch and Event
Site... Wells Island corridor was very dreamlike in the evening sun.
Nobody around except a dude cruising at warp speed on what looked to be
a 5.0 Sailworks Retro and if I'm not mistaken, I believe it was the
owner of the company?
-- Pete
> On 9 Jun 2006 20:07:22 -0700, windmt...@yahoo.com wrote:
>
> > in fact, the BIGGEST most
> >HUGEST (sp?) sail I own... it's an old NW Trilite 4.7
sailworksman
year!
Bruce Peterson
Sailworks
(....guilty as charged for speeding through the parking lot ....)
Jerry McEwen
since Wednesday, but I'm buried with work. Maybe next week...
Dan Weiss
generally agree. But comparing a 7.5 non-race to a 7.5 race can be
misleading b/c the race sails are designed with greater stability in
mind and, thus, allow the rider to capture power using raw acreage. I
suppose it's like comparing 2-cams to wave sails. Any meaningful
discussion ought to mention that that it's tough to compare sails of
the same size but of different design criteria.
-Dan
(PeteCresswell)
>it's like comparing 2-cams to wave sails. Any meaningful
>discussion ought to mention that that it's tough to compare sails of
>the same size but of different design criteria.
Do camless wave sails have any more low-end pulling power than 2-cam sails?
--
PeteCresswell
Dan Weiss
battens to bend which, in turn, increases skin tension so that the seam
shaping can take its set. For light winds, it's pretty tough to beat a
cammed sail b/c the induced shape squirts though the wind better than a
sail that has not yet filled.
That said, pumping a sail changes everything in light wind and, in most
cases I suppose, pumping a wave sail and typical cam sail of equal area
will generate more useful power from the wave sail due to typical
shaping considerations. However, not everyone is inclined to pump
their way around their pond using a wave sail. That's where the
additional stability of a cam sail or a no-cam slalom sail can make a
larger sail much more useful than that same wave sail.
-Dan
LeeD
pulling power.
That said, twin cams can have long booms or short booms, can be hi
end oriented or low end planing oriented.
Same with wave sails. Some are made for big guys, have draft high
and back, and power up without lots of wind.
Other's are made by/for tiny tykes...which some here choose even thos
they're big and heavy, thus have little early planing power, but great
high end control.
Choose wisely, look at your needs and yourself, then decide.
If I was big, I'd choose Searchs, Crossovers, and Dukes (XXX's).
If I like high wind control, I'd choose otherwise.
Jerry McEwen
and invariably the longer boom sail will have more low end. I always
look at that when buying a larger size.
Brian
My 8.3 Windwing Hammer is a well designed sail. Easy to rig (after I
read the helpful instructions). The sail itself seems to be made from
a better quality material than any of my other sails. Has allowed me to
sail enjoyably in light winds down to about 8 knots.