Starboard Formula Chronology?
Craig (gsogh) Goudie
model Starboards
I'm finding it hard to know where to Start (yuk, yuk). Add to that the
dubious virtual volume
marketing ploy, and I really am clueless. I want a board that I can
sail on inland
waters with small chop and 8 to 15 MPH wind strength, with an 8.5 - 10.5
sail.
I'm looking for a 2001-2003 new or used board, but the last 2 years with
the shape of a potato chip look easier to manage (to me). I'm also NOT
interested
in an 1800 dollar board, but would consider anything from $1000 on down.
Which of you dares to try and list the boards, their real volume, and
their chronology?
Are there any I should avoid (the 186 appears to be pretty unpopular)?
I'm mainly interested in early planing and control, though a dose of
speed would be OK.
What say ye?
-Craig (I weigh about 180 and am 6'3" right now)
--
Craig (Go Short or Go Home!) Goudie
Sailing the high desert lakes of Utah on my:
RRD 298, Starboard 272 and Cross M 8'2" with
Sailworks/Naish Sails and Rec Composites Fins
Sailing the Gorge on my: 9'1" RRD Freeride,
8'3" Logosz Squish, 8'0" Hitech IBM with
Sailworks/Northwave Sails and Curtis Fins
Tufarnorth
I've got the original F155, 2000, and still love it. It's volume is about
137l, and it is, I believe, still fast. Only 85cm wide, great with an 8.5 for
me planing the 8.5 in 8.5 knots at 160 lbs and a 44cm weed fin. Might be too
smallish for you , though.
I have seen them at good prices on iwindsurf.
Cindy
Charles Ivey
F147 is a superb formula board and a very early planing machine with an easy
to control ride. Otherwise, the X186 is still a fine board. The F186 was
only unpopular in high winds and rough water (like a planing cork),
otherwise it was and probably is still the earliest planing board Starboard
made. If you only ride it in winds 15 and under on relatively calm water,
the F186 is great fun and vastly underrated. I'll keep mine just because if
the conditions are truly marginal, the trusty F186 will still be first to
plane. The F175 is a classic and is still raced. It came with a 65 cm fin
and was not 100 cm wide so it does not plane quite as soon as 100 cm wide
boards. The F155 is a light weight sailors fun board. At 85 cm width, it
will not plane as soon as the new wide boards but the F155 was and still is
a very fast board for Baffing. It only had a 58 cm fin, small by today's
standards.
So, to recommend based and limited to your stated conditions, I would go
F147, F186, X186, F175, and F155 in that order. There are several that
would agree with me about the F186, including the people at Bluefinz. If
you can find an F186, it would likely be very inexpensive and on fresh
water, the high volume is not as much a problem. It came with a CR15 Curtis
fin that is a good stock fin.
Over time your eyes change or your brain adapts and these big wide boards
start to look almost normal...so give it a go and enjoy more planing time.
CI
"Craig (gsogh) Goudie" <gor...@netzero.net> wrote in message
news:3F8196FE...@netzero.net...
Steven Slaby
> I'm thinking Starboard formula, but there is such a profusion of late
> model Starboards
> I'm finding it hard to know where to Start (yuk, yuk). Add to that the
> dubious virtual volume
> marketing ploy, and I really am clueless. I want a board that I can
> sail on inland
> waters with small chop and 8 to 15 MPH wind strength, with an 8.5 - 10.5
> sail.
> I'm looking for a 2001-2003 new or used board, but the last 2 years with
>
> the shape of a potato chip look easier to manage (to me). I'm also NOT
> interested
> in an 1800 dollar board, but would consider anything from $1000 on down.
If you are not interested in racing, see if you can find an original
Formula 155. Still planes early and its a little narrower so jibing is
a little more fun!
Steve.
--
----------------------------------------------
Ottawa Windsurfing http://ottawawindsurfing.ca
Jack (Sarasota)
Craig, Whatever Formula board you get is going to work fine for your
purposes, except maybe the 155 which will require a little more wind than
your stated range, However, you are going to need a BIG sail and fin to
plane in 8 mph no matter what board you get.
Jack (Sarasota)
"Charles Ivey" <charl...@cox.net> wrote in message
news:bTlgb.17241$%o6.1...@news1.central.cox.net...
JimmySmitsLovesChocolateMilk
as a follow up,
I have the f155 and an looking for a new sail.
I was thinking about a NP V8 7.5 - 8.5m or around, because of its report
ability to give you lots of low end grunt power.
I figured this would get me planning in 8 - 10 mph wind, flat water on an
inland lake ( I am 185 lbs)
from what I am reading here, I guess I should aim at a 10m sail cause the
8m would not get me what I want,
any recommendations for sails in that size?
I usually figure 14 mph is the min to get me up and planeing right now with
my current duo film 6.6
I would like to double the number of potential surfing days by getting this
larger sail.
A while back I thought I read a thread about older sails being more
powerful,
subject = Old topic -- new data
started by CI
<snip>
>Obviously, in 1995, sails must have had
>more power and racing was not on the wide formula boards of today.
<snip>
Do I understand this correctly? it doesn't seem to make sense that
progress has given us less power.
if that is true though, then a jump from an old 6.6 to a new 8.0 wouldn't
be enough,
a 10m sail seems awfully large to me, (the largest I have sailed in the
past is 7.3) should I look for any 10m sail in particular? is there much
of a difference between 6 and 10m sails besides the obvious size and weight
differences?
harder to handle ect?
Thanks for all your answers
Dave
"Jack (Sarasota)" <Jack...@comcast.net> wrote in message
news:nhOdnatdWtD...@comcast.com...
Tom - Chicago
I happen to have a 7.5 M V8 that I no longer need - yours for a modest sum.
If I am not mistaken - you are here in the Midwest - not too much shipping.
To be honest, I don't consider this to be a light wind/early planing sail.
For that I use the big Retro. The V8 was my go to sail when my 9.5 M Retro
was overpowered (>15kts or so). Now I have an 8.0M Retro, so I have no use
for the V8.
If you really want light wind, I might even sell the 9.5 M retro. It is not
in great shape, but it still goes like h*ll.
Picture:
The red one in this pic is the V8, the White one is the 9.5 M Retro
http://www.tobmkc.com/Albums/nnm02/231.jpg
Tom - Chicago
tomATtobmkcDOTcom
"JimmySmitsLovesChocolateMilk" <Not...@doing.ca> wrote in message
news:vo5uiqa...@corp.supernews.com...
Charles Ivey
would be a good match for that board to get earlier planing. Nothing beats
having a new 100 cm wide early planing design, but when the F155 is pumped
(and you might try a 65 cm CR 15 fin as well) with a sail like the big
Retros, you can launch the plane and then pump on up to speed pretty well.
I always thought the F155 was perfectly matched to the 9.5 (I am 185 pounds
also) when planing comfortably (meaning not marginal and not over-powered).
Some sail sizes seem to match boards better than other sizes and at my
weight and style, the match was the 9.5. The good thing about a 9.5 Retro
is it still rigs with a 490 cm mast so you can avoid jumping all the way to
the 520 mast.
Now, don't get your hopes up too high. You will still have to work to get a
9.5 and F155 planing in 8-10 mph -- for me 11 mph and up was more achievable
with that combination, but back then I did not pump as well so maybe???
That is why I would looking around for a larger fin. The F155 came with
only a 58 cm fin -- very small by today's wider board standards. The 58 cm
fin is well matched to the F155 (only 85 cm wide) when powered up but when
conditions are marginal, a bigger fin sure helps you get going.
Finally, Windsurfing Magazine had a great article contrasting older design
sails with modern designs. One finding was that old sails were indeed more
powerful for launching the plane and this difference might be as much as 1.5
meters in size compared to today's designs. However, once powered up and
going, modern sails are dramatically faster. So, an older 1990 -1995 sail
that was 7.0 might be about the same as a modern 8.5, but rangewise, the
older sail would not be easy to control in a blow nor would it go as fast.
Conclusion, if you are stepping up in sail size from older sails, you will
be surprised at how easy they are to handle and how well behaved they are.
You will quickly learn to like a 9.5 sail and thinking of it as a big sail
will not linger around for long. Heck, 9.5 sails to formula guys means the
wind is really blowing 25 +.
More planing time is certainly worth the suggested changes.
Summary:
Cadillac solution: 100 cm formula board and 70 cm fin with a 10 to 10.5
Retro
Pontiac Firebird solution: F155 but get a 65 cm fin and a 9.5 Retro
Chevy Nova solution: F155 and 9.5 Retro
Ferrari Testarosa: HS 111 with a fully cammed race sail
A really neat thing about the F155 is you could baf the board fairly well.
It is still a rocket on a reach. Plus, after jibing 100 cm wide formula
boards, the F155 feels like a sports car in the turns if you are fully
powered.
CI
"JimmySmitsLovesChocolateMilk" <Not...@doing.ca> wrote in message
news:vo5uiqa...@corp.supernews.com...
(Pete Cresswell)
>One finding was that old sails were indeed more
>powerful for launching the plane and this difference might be as much as 1.5
>meters in size compared to today's designs.
That matches up with my initial reaction to that meter or two of floppyness up
at the head of the sail.... It must be doing something, but it's sure not
creating low-end lift.
--
PeteCresswell
Jack (Sarasota)
8 mph planing for more than a few madly pumping seconds is pretty optimistic
for a 185 pounder, even with a 10 M2 sail on the 155. However, it will plane
WAY earlier than 14 mph. Lightweights with good technique can get going
in less for sure, but not us real sized folks. 11 mph will be a blast
however, and you will be able to plane through some short lulls.
While it is true that the older sails are more powerful, they don't really
have the range you need for Formula sailing. Keep in mind that there is a
tremendous change in apparent wind as you "get lit". The older and smaller
sail that might feel great just as you get on a plane, will be hard to
control once you are really going. I use lots more downhaul on my modern
race sails when on the Formula, than I do with the same sail on the
longboard because of this exaggeration of the apparent wind.
Jack (Sarasota)
"JimmySmitsLovesChocolateMilk" <Not...@doing.ca> wrote in message
news:vo5uiqa...@corp.supernews.com...
Charles Ivey
That floppy top is indeed doing a great job for you. I would imagine you
have seen a picture of an eagle or condor in soaring flight (like those
National Geographic covers). The wing tip shows the feathers smoothly
turning upward, not the same concave shape of a wing closer to the bird's
body. The bird know drag is a bad thing and twist is good.
Visualize the top of a sail that stays curved all the way to the head with
the same shape as the chord at the boom height. Such a head shape would
have lots of heeling force from still producing some lift, but mostly
creating whirling vortices off the leech -- little whirlwinds of drag. The
overall lift is high for such a sail but the drag is high as well. The net
lift is some number that is reduced by the high drag at the head. Now take
the same sail and twist it off so that under load, the shape may even change
camber to an opposite curve from the chord in the belly. Such a shape in
the head has no lift and is there to send the air (which comes into the area
of the sail and flows upward, in some areas of the sail upward at nearly 45
degrees) flowing smoothly over the head to slide off without making all
those little dragging whirlwinds. Since the area up there in the head is so
small, there was not much lift up there in the first or older type sail, but
the drag was doing two bad things...reducing net lift and creating lots of
heeling moment. The new sail lets that air slide off without much problem
so the total lift has much less drag subtracted from it and the net lift is
good. Now speed up...this is where it really gets fun. As the net lift is
all that matters, the loss of the major drag at the head becomes really
important at higher speed. The old sail becomes almost as bad as having an
umbrella up there catching the wind and really slowing you down.
Add to that the angle of attack problem which means as you go up the mast,
the wind is stronger and seems to come from more to the side. This is the
real genius of twisted sails. Not only do they smooth the airflow off the
head, they also change to accept the higher pressure of more wind strength
coming at the sail from the higher twisted angle. The twisted angle of
attach is the fundamental genius of modern designs. We get both the AOA
benefit and reduced drag from that floppy leech area (they are related but
we are talking turkey here.) Under load the leech is a nice line that
follows (a little accelerated) the wind's AOA coming into the sail at the
luff. The mast also plays a dynamic role in all this and flexes dramatically
off to leeward at the head.
There are lots better descriptions of all this from more knowledgeable
people, including how one wants the boundary layer to spread slowly and not
steeply, but the net result is the modern twisted sail does not pull you
over as much (less heeling moment) while still producing more net lift as
you speed up. At low speeds, that hooked head area feels powerful and helps
you plane early, but then it immediately starts becoming a liability.
One of the reasons you flatten a sail as you have higher winds and hence
pressures is because you do not want have a steeply changing chord that
allows the flowing air to start separation too soon and to widen the
boundary layer too quickly. Those same little whirlwinds start forming on
the leech end of the sail and working their way forward and a flatter belly
helps keep them back there toward the leech, not to mention lowering the
form factor drag (which is the cross-sectional area the wind sees and has to
divert around.)
I used to actually study sail design and have seen smoke trail tunnel tests
of different foils. When you deepen the chord while increasing the wind
speed, the disturbances are easy to see creeping forward. When you stall a
sail, the vortices that produces are huge and dramatic. The smooth flow
turns into a storm of crap. All flow is chaotic at the surface no matter
what the angle of attach, but your job is to minimize the rate at which that
chaos starts spreading and widening as the flow goes over the sail. Modern
sails moving at Fronde 2.0 through the air are amazing, almost unbelievable
foils that change twist and shape. If we could only build a visoelastic
sail that took the next step in design, we could hold up 15 m sails and
plane in maybe 4 knots.
Finally if we could visoelastically pump a sail and gain reattachment of
vortices near the leech, we could gain about 15 percent more lift by
oversheeting and then rapidly sheeting out to catch the little whirls on the
leech. Modern formula racers do this anyway (but I doubt they get a 15
percent boost) and get more lift by catching just a little of the whirling
air if they can pump fast enough. Pumping has then two major benefits...one
is reducing the board's drag by getting it airborne and the other is by
increasing the total lift in the sail by purposefully creating momentarily
oversheeted situations followed by rapidly shoving the sail back into the
disturbed air to get a slight catch of these little whirling devils in the
back part of the sail which is why you tighten the leech (more AO) to pump
better. At least that's what I think is happening. This is mostly opinion,
but I invite more a knowledgeable discussion of all this by those that are
more up-to-date than I.
CI
"(Pete Cresswell)" <x@y.z> wrote in message
news:bfk6ov0df2jb0tusn...@4ax.com...
Tom Whicker
Charles and everyone,
I must admit to being skeptical about the sail twist concept.
I made a video tape of the America's Cup this year and just
went back to look at it. One day was in light air, another day
in 22kts, but in all cases their sails had no visible
twist. There were great helicopter overhead shots of the
sails and you could see that the air-foil shape kept the same
draft and profile from bottom to top.
Given that these guys have endless millions to spend and
the world's best designers, why don't they have sails that
twist off???
Tom Whicker
Chapel Hill, NC
sailquik (Roger Jackson)
Well, for starters, the America's Cup boats have a vertical (or nearly
so)
mast. They can bend the mast with massive hydraulic back stay tension,
which opens up the top of the sail. They can also "straighten the leech"
with tremendous hydraulic vang tension.
And they have solid stainless steel rod rigging to hold the mast up.
They tune the mast every day with big turnbuckles and ultra accurate
strain gages they place on the rod rigging so that each individual rod
carries the designed load to keep the mast straight up (athwartships).
But the principle things they have that windsurfers do not are tons of
lead
in the keel to keep the mast upright. They change sail sizes to keep the
hull at optimum trim, then fine tune with the hyd. back stay, and with
the
hyd. vang.
The America's Cup boats use their back stay and vang to virtually
eliminate
"spanwise flow" up the foil. In windsurfing sails, the top designers
have
learned to use top twist to get better performance from foils that by
definition
(i.e. raked back) have lots of spanwise flow. I think this is the
principle
difference between WS rigs and 12 meter yacht sails.
All that creaking and groaning you hear on the "onboard microphones"
is lines being tightened and eased around huge grinder winches, plus the
creaks and groans from different parts of the rig under unbelievable
tension.
Principle differences are the fact that windsurfing rigs are raked back,
and windsurfing boards depend on the sailors efficient use of upper body
weight to replace the tons of lead in the keel.
I can assure you that they are always aware of the precise shape of the
sail, and
have literally tons of data to show the absolute optimum shape for the
sails, and
absolute fastest trim angles for the hull.
Our methods of "collecting data" about the "optimums" in windsurfing are
pretty archaic by comparison.
Serious head to head testing by the top windsurfing racers in the world,
with the
designers on site is about as sophisticated as it gets in windsurfing.
But windsurfing sails can be recut, and modified, overnight, and
tried/tested again
the next day.
And these sails cost a few hundred dollars.
I'd love to have the cost of one America's Cup main sail (and they carry
several)
added to my bank account. Not something you are likely to have recut or
reshaped
overnight.
Hope this helps,
Charles Ivey
Even that America's cup yacht sail is open at the top -- I promise you --
just not nearly as much as our windsurfing sails. Few if any would want the
trailing edge to be more hauled than parallel to the boom. I've seen the
same thing in these yacht's much less twist, but as Roger mentions, they
have massive weight down low in the keel, and they travel at much slower
Fronde numbers. The trailing edge of the sail is never hooked at the head
unless the air is really light and the skipper wants it that way. Another
major difference is the speed factor. A non- twisted or open head is
increasingly bad as you speed increases. I also admit, windsurfing sails
twist more than the change in AOA going up the mast (or they seem to). That
is why I said they accelerated the change in AOA going up. I meant the way
the sail opens up is the angle is more open at the top than is the AOA from
an increase in wind speed.
Years ago I was skeptical of the "flattened belly" sails when they were
introduced by North in one-design yacht racing. There was just not the
feeling of power that the deeper sails had. None the less, they were faster
and in time almost all sails changed subtly to flatten sections in the
belly. Overall lift maybe less, but the net lift was more. What I was
feeling was less heeling moment, not less net lift.
Now I admit, it has been a few years since I studied sail design, and today
there may be new ideas and directions. However, when I hold up a sail with
my body (or it holds me up) and that sail is about the same size as a Hobie
14 main sail, I am sure glad I have twist.
Finally, how does one deal with the test results that show the non-twisted
(less twisted) sails of just a few years ago are so much slower than today's
sails? I refer you to the recent Windsurfing Magazine article where test
results are shown that dramatically show the twisted sails have much better
top end speed when powered up. Net useable lift is all that can cause that
speed difference.
Finally, I must admit, I don't like a floppy topped sail that does not
produce a monotonic and twisted leech line. If the head is a S curve at the
leech under normal wind load, the top of the mast is not tuned to the sail
or something else is wrong. A floppy leech that never firms up is not what
one wants either. The other factor to consider here is off wind performance
of racing sail. Off the wind, area is the winner more than anything else,
and this is true when the sail is not in stall mode but has brought the
apparent wind more aft while turning down but still maintained mostly
lifting flow. In order to have that extra area off the wind, you have to
hide or depower the area on other points of sail. I think the fact that
12.5 sails are so important off the wind is because they can be twisted off
going upwind when the apparent wind is so much higher. So, you are probably
right in one regard, we have to use bigger sails than otherwise necessary
while racing so the downwind angle can be deeper. Still, overall, the
twisted sails are faster or no one would be using them. Perhaps the
exception are the jumpers who want the center of effort higher in the sail
and all the lift they can get. But remember, as they use both momentum and
some lift to reach greater heights, they are not going nearly as fast up
once up in the air.
Amended position: Twist good, too much twist bad, too little twist bad.
CI
"Tom Whicker" <t.wh...@mindspring.com> wrote in message
news:3F839BF5...@mindspring.com...
FFF
> All that creaking and groaning you hear on the "onboard microphones"
> is lines being tightened and eased around huge grinder winches, plus
> the creaks and groans from different parts of the rig under
> unbelievable
I belive those creaks and groans are just foreplay to this:
<http://pplmedia.com/art_pic/ac_yam2.jpg>
florian
Charles Ivey
Ted Turner (he in his 6 meter Yellow Rose, 30 + feet long). Turner was
struggling and cranking out on his backstay when we got a good burst and was
able to slip just forward into good air. He bore down a little to get speed
and I heard the creaking and groaning followed by a loud snap, then
explosion...he had pulled the whole mast and rigging down into the board --
collapsed the whole thing right down. He put on a furious display of
berating everyone in the area and on the docks later.
It was not as bad as Conner's sinking at the dock (which I did not see just
to be clear about it) but I did see what the huge forces could do to a boat
and how much tension and danger there is in highly stressed rigs. Snapping
a windsurfing mast while cranking the downhaul is nothing compared to larger
yachting masts.
CI
"FFF" <florian...@funnygarbage.com> wrote in message
news:20031008231...@News.CIS.DFN.DE...
sailquik (Roger Jackson)
Yep, it was foreplay with the headstay, vang, and hydraulic backstay that
broke
Young America's back.
Notice that the area where the hull failed is right under the vang, and
pretty much
half way between the headstay and the backstay. Imagine that!
Roger
BarryWind
Thought I'd also shed some positive light on the F156. For my weight, 172#,
it's a great compromise between size and control. And no, it's not just a
junior or woman's board. Even though I've never used anything larger than a
11.5 on it, there would be no problem to fly a 12.5 on it. I wouldn't go
much shorter than a 62-66 cm fin for BAF sailing. Although only 129L, it
floats me just fine and slogs about as bad/good as the shorter, but
floatier, F147. And if you don't want the wood version, this board is also
available in the DRAM construction...
-Barry [NM]
PS - Hope to see you up at Morgan, before the snow flies. If I have my F156
with me, you are welcome to take it for a spin. Tentatively, bunch of us are
heading there for first weekend of Nov, forecast dependant of course...
"Craig (gsogh) Goudie" <gor...@netzero.net> wrote in message
news:3F8196FE...@netzero.net...
> I'm thinking Starboard formula, but there is such a profusion of late
> model Starboards
> I'm finding it hard to know where to Start (yuk, yuk). Add to that the
> dubious virtual volume
> marketing ploy, and I really am clueless. ...
Charles Ivey
junior riders mostly use in ASA construction and it performs very well.
Barry indeed does fly along on his. I have a little less success with the
F156 because from about 185 pounds and up the volume seems a little low for
most people. However, we have a 200 pound 16 year old who has no problems
with the volume and he really likes the 156.
CI
"BarryWind" <barry...@earthlink.net> wrote in message
news:Owdhb.3399$av5...@newsread3.news.pas.earthlink.net...
Weed Fin
<<Several years ago, I was in a duel on the first reach, sailing along side
Ted Turner (he in his 6 meter Yellow Rose, 30 + feet long). Turner was
struggling and cranking out on his backstay when we got a good burst and was
able to slip just forward into good air. He bore down a little to get speed
and I heard the creaking and groaning followed by a loud snap, then
explosion...he had pulled the whole mast and rigging down into the board --
collapsed the whole thing right down. He put on a furious display of
berating everyone in the area and on the docks later.>>
I know where they are selling two of America Cups R+D hulls from 1990
something for novelty if you're interested. You can put in in your bar, club
house, etc. I think the price is $2500 or $4000 each.
BarryWind
Depot door... Tell Zach that he should seek a sponsorship from Home Depot or
any other building supply house. We'll work out the minor detail of
attaching a fin in this NG... ;^)
-B
"Charles Ivey" <charl...@cox.net> wrote in message
news:wcehb.710$_f....@news1.central.cox.net...
> ...we have a 200 pound 16 year old who has no problems
srm
> the world's best designers, why don't they have sails that
> twist off???
>
Given that these guys have endless millions to spend and
the world's best designers, why don't they have sails that
twist off???
My understanding is this:
The principal reason for twist in a windsurfing sail is to extend the
range of the sail (per a sailmaker's clinic). Boat sailors aren't
really concerned with this because their sail is fixed to the boat
with stays, so they don't get catapulted or back-handed and they
aren't effected as much if their CE moves around.
The other reason, as was mentioned before, is to deal with wind
gradient (the increase of windspeed as we move away from the water
surface). The windsurfer's sail starts at essentially the water,
hence wind speed at the foot of the sail approaches zero. If my
memory is correct (per Frank Bethwait's book) the boundary layer
(depth of wind gradient) for windspeeds above something like 6kts only
extends like 5 or 10 feet above the surface, i.e. the wind speed at 10
feet is the same as the windspeed at 30 feet and at 100 feet. Thus,
the windsurfer's sail is operating (at least partially) within the
boundary layer (so it is effected by wind gradient) while the yacht
sail is completly out of the boundary layer (no wind gradient).
Bill Kline
>Subject: Re: Sail size ?
>From: sm...@fit.edu (srm)
>Date: 10/10/2003 9:09 AM Pacific Daylight Time
>Message-id: <f8b7a665.03101...@posting.google.com>
Charles Ivey
Willis, Mark Ramsey, Pieter Botha and Clay and Todd Selby, not to mention
all four girls (Angela Hurley, Marina Robel, Lilly Barnett, and Lene Botha)
will be back next year -- and tougher and stronger... and sooner or later
you will have to face what I face -- youth will beat you eventually. For
now however, you and Guy have lots more to help me teach these kids, even if
they can plane before any of us. Ummm, some of the new ones coming up...
now's the time to beat them before they get fully dialed in. Next year if
they get too cocky, you can ride my Hypersonic against them in a drag
race -- that will help the ego.
When you compute the square meters per pound these kids sail, it is no
wonder they take off so easily. A 109 pound kid with a 10.5 when you are on
an 11.0 is no contest in light winds...
CI
"BarryWind" <barry...@earthlink.net> wrote in message
news:lUyhb.5882$dn6....@newsread4.news.pas.earthlink.net...