Yet another kiting accident
Bill
the president of a major U.S. watersports distributor gets hurt, I
think that people will take special notice. Our best wishes are
with Alex for a full recovery. Hopefully, the incident will not
threaten access here in Miami.
___________________________
MATHESON HAMMOCK
Kitesurfer is injured in windy conditions
The head of an extreme-sports gear distributor was seriously
injured after he tried to launch his kiteboard from Matheson
Hammock park Tuesday afternoon.
Alex Caviglia, head of Miami-based Adventure Sports, was
standing on the shore of the South Miami-Dade park when a
gust of wind snagged his parachute-like kite, slamming him onto
the pavement of a nearby parking lot.
''It was like a slingshot,'' said Alvaro Ordoñez, a Coral Gables
dentist who had just arrived at the park for an afternoon of
kitesurfing -- a sport that allows thrill-seekers to jump across
waves on a board while harnessed to an inflatable kite.
Caviglia first landed on his side on the sand before the kite
pulled him spinning into the air again, said Ordoñez, who
watched as Caviglia's head hit the corner of a concrete parking
triangle.
''Then he went up again and landed on the asphalt underneath
his BMW,'' said Ordoñez. ``It happened very fast.''
Caviglia, a 47-year-old father of two who lives in Pinecrest, was
airlifted to Jackson Memorial Hospital's Ryder Trauma Center
and underwent surgery. His condition was not known late
Tuesday.
High winds in the area could have played a part in Caviglia's
crash landing. According to the National Weather Servicewinds
in the area reached 30 miles per hour, with occasional gusts
reaching 40 miles per hour.
Caviglia may have underestimated the windy conditions, said
Kent Marinkovic, a national sales manager for Adventure Sports.
He said Caviglia was an avid windsurfer and kitesurfer.
As a safety precaution, kitesurfers sometimes ''walk'' their kites
out into the water to avoid being catapulted toward land, said
Marinkovic. Caviglia was lifting from the shoreline, according to
witnesses.
Sent via www.sfbsa.com
The South Florida Board Sailing Association
Peter Berkey
of pilot error (??). There was a time when I thought seasoned windsurfers
were safer at kiting than non-windsurfers because they supposedly had more
respect & control for the power in the wind. However, this case sure does
blow that theory out of the water!!
BTW, with winds gusting to 40.... why wasn't this guy windsurfing on his
small stuff instead of tea bagging on a kite??
Hoping for a full recovery for Alex.
--Wind Mountain Pete
"Bill" <behr...@nospam.compuserve.com> wrote in message
news:botes5$68g$1...@ngspool-d02.news.aol.com...
Jeff McVannel
Peter Berkey wrote in message ...
>BTW, with winds gusting to 40.... why wasn't this guy windsurfing on his
>small stuff instead of tea bagging on a kite??
That's easy to answer. Stronger winds = bigger jumps.
Jeff
Tom - Chicago
I am not in any way against kiting - but it is scary how easy it seems to be
to get hurt. Or perhaps how random it seems to be - and the severity of the
injuries.
I hope he has a speedy recovery.
Tom - Chicago
"Bill" <behr...@nospam.compuserve.com> wrote in message
news:botes5$68g$1...@ngspool-d02.news.aol.com...
Paul Braunbehrens
In article <3Vssb.20721$8x2.8...@newssrv26.news.prodigy.com>, Tom -
Glenn Woodell
jef...@harborside.com says...
Looks like he got that. Let's hope he recovers from this.
Glenn
Jeff aka shredulato
fractures with the immediate surgery needed.
Alan Sandoval
family.
Just goes to show, once again, that kiting is too dangerous for even
experienced people. And before anyone calls me a hand-wringer, once again,
a short portfolio. Downhill skier, rock climber, race car driver. I
thought those risks were controllable, I don't feel that way about kiting.
I would NEVER kite.
Alan
"Jeff aka shredulato" <wildw...@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:916f2fd2.03111...@posting.google.com...
> hope he is well soon sounds like a bad head injury and or bad
> fractures with the immediate surgery needed.
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Bill
This is very good news.
What you say makes sense, Alan. Where gusty conditions may
make windsurfing less fun (or more challenging), they can make
kitesurfing deadly. In that sense, one's fate is "cast into the
wind" to a much larger degree. It doesn't appear that the rider
can be trusted to react quickly enough to gusts to escape a bad
situation. Perhaps some type of "pressure relief valve" should
be designed into kites that limits the effect of large gusts on the
kite's power.
Bill
Rainer Leuschke
On Wed, 12 Nov 2003, Alan Sandoval wrote:
> Just goes to show, once again, that kiting is too dangerous for even
> experienced people. And before anyone calls me a hand-wringer, once again,
> a short portfolio. Downhill skier, rock climber, race car driver. I
> thought those risks were controllable, I don't feel that way about kiting.
> I would NEVER kite.
From the few details we've heared it goes to show, once again, that kiting
in strong gusty onshore conditions with little or no safety buffer and
attached to the kite is a dangerous proposition. Not wearing a helmet
doesn't help when things go wrong. Unfortunately this has been the same
story over and over with a huge majority of serious accidents. Experienced
riders seem to ignore some basic safety issues quite frequently. Its an
issue of the social dynamics of the sport. People that can't evaluate risk
for themselves might be better off sticking with lawn bowling.
Did you do any free solo climbing at the limit of your skill? Skied cliff
bands that you didn't scout beforehand?
Keep it real....oh wait, this is a recdot.
R!
Jon from islandsports.com
"On Tuesday, November 12, 2003 at approximately 3:30 pm, Alex Caviglia
the
President of Adventure Sports was injured in a serious kiteboarding
accident. The incident occurred at Matheson Hammock Park in a suburb of
Miami. Matheson Hammock is one of the most popular locations for
kiteboarding in Miami. The conditions at the time of the incident were
ranging between 21-34 MPH and gusty. The wind was from the NNE and
directly
onshore. The incident occurred within seconds after the launch of his
kite.
The launch area is confined and approximately 35 meters in length and 2
to-5
meters in width (from the water to the parking lot). Due to the onshore
conditions and the narrow width of the launch site, Alex was limited to
being only 4 to 5 feet from the shore (knee deep in water) prior to his
launch. His kite was also either over the land or just 2-3 feet off the
shoreline. An experienced kiteboarder assisted in the launching of
Alex's
kite and had released the kite after Alex had signaled him to do so.
The
launch was clean and free from fouls or twists. Alex proceeded to raise
the
kite to approximately the 3:00 position (about 12 to18 feet above the
water
and very low). Just after the launch, the gusty conditions caused the
kite
to drift slightly back (down wind and over the shoreline),
approximately 8
to10 feet from its original position which was far forward and out of
the
power zone. The kite quickly and sharply accelerated, causing Alex to
lurch
forward, out of control. Given the extremely narrow span of the launch
region, Alex had literally a fraction of a second before colliding with
the
shoreline. Two witnesses (both kitesurfers) indicated that Alex had
neither
the time, nor the opportunity to activate his safety release system and
that
his hands never left the bar.
Fortunately, two of the witnesses on the beach (one a kiter) were fire
fighters and certified paramedics. The first assistance by one of the
witnessing paramedics reached Alex within 15 seconds of the time of the
accident. The quick acting paramedics were able to contact emergency
services within seconds and directly request that the Trauma center
launch a
rescue helicopter immediately. Alex was airlifted to Jackson Memorial
Trauma
center in Miami where he remains.
Alex's current condition is critical, but stable. He has suffered
serious
head injuries, but doctors have performed procedures that have gone as
planned and without incident. He is reported to also have other
serious, but
less threatening injuries. These injuries are yet to be determined.
Doctors
at Jackson Memorial hospital have indicated that more information on
the
severity of Alex's injuries will come during the next 48 hours. "
Kent related some encouraging news from the hospital to me. Alex has
revived
to a degree into what the doctors call a "light coma." That is even
though
he is still unconscious, he is responding to some verbal instructions.
Alex
still has some ground to recover but this is excellent news! Alex, our
prayers and thoughts are with you.
_________________
FKA, Inc.
transcribed by: Rick Iossi
Rainer Leuschke <rai...@u.washington.edu> wrote in message news:<Pine.A41.4.58.03...@dante07.u.washington.edu>...
(Pete Cresswell)
> Experienced
>riders seem to ignore some basic safety issues quite frequently.
It's not the inexperienced having accidents that bothers me - it's the
story-after-story I hear about competant, experienced people getting lunched.
--
PeteCresswell
Peter Berkey
> It's not the inexperienced having accidents that bothers me - it's the
> story-after-story I hear about competant, experienced people getting
lunched.
Seems to me the problem might be over-confidence and just a little
carelessness on the part of some kiters? Maybe a little early to tell, but
this latest case seems to be a clear example of breaking the rules. Isn't
it true that in kiting, ya never launch from the shore when there are
onshore winds.... especially when those winds are super gusty of 40+ ??
Understand, don't want to jump to any conclusions here, but doesn't it just
*seem* that there are some "experienced" kiters out there who are just a
little too relaxed about certain "common sense" rules of the wind??
-- Wind Mountain Pete
Cliff Frost
> Pete Cresswell writes:
...
> Understand, don't want to jump to any conclusions here, but doesn't it just
> *seem* that there are some "experienced" kiters out there who are just a
> little too relaxed about certain "common sense" rules of the wind??
Well one problem is that the consequences of a mistake or misjudgement
seem to be so great with kiting.
Given the high skill level of the last 3 injured (or killed) kiters
we've heard about on this newsgroup, it looks to me like it's not as
simple a matter as being "too relaxed".
Dunno, but I advise anyone who asks me to stay away from kiting given
everything. Even though it does look like fun to me...
Cheers,
Cliff
(Pete Cresswell)
>Understand, don't want to jump to any conclusions here, but doesn't it just
>*seem* that there are some "experienced" kiters out there who are just a
>little too relaxed about certain "common sense" rules of the wind??
In the stories I've read I see:
1) A "Russian Roulette factor": freak windshifts/gusts. They happen. We've all
seem them happen in the past and they're going to keep happening in the future.
2) A limit on human reflexes. The beginner is probably less at risk than the
accomplished sailor because the beginner is running scared while the
accomplished kiter is used to controlling the situation. Gust comes, the
beginner's reflex is to ditch the rig. To the experienced sailor, it's just
one more gust and they reflexivey start to fly their way out of it....but this
is one of those rogue gusts and that's not gonna happen. In the time the seven
tenths of a second or whatever it takes to realize that passes, it's too late -
they're either 30 feet in the air or doing 30 mph across the parking lot....very
soon to be doing zero mph...
--
PeteCresswell
Peter Berkey
> 1) A "Russian Roulette factor": freak windshifts/gusts. They happen.
We've all
> seem them happen in the past and they're going to keep happening in the
future.
What I wonder is why there aren't more horrific kiting accidents here in the
Gorge.... this *should be* where most accidents involving kites occur mainly
because of the fact that this is nuker-puff alley when it comes to wind
gusts. However, there are rarely any kiting accidents at all here.... why
not? My only guess (pure speculation) is that because the wind only travels
the same direction as the shore (with few exceptions), there is a smaller
risk factor of being dragged into an obstruction. So, the choice of where
and when to launch seem to be the primary issues with most kiting accidents,
am I right?
> 2) A limit on human reflexes. The beginner is probably less at risk than
the
> accomplished sailor because the beginner is running scared while the
> accomplished kiter is used to controlling the situation.
Yep, absolutely.... it's a control thing. Looks bad if you let go of a
kite.... and you are certainly responsible for the damage it causes.
Experienced kiters know this very well. However, beginners are far less
concerned about these matters.... they just bail if & when the need arises.
Sometimes ignorance is wisdom and there is great wisdom in being ignorant.
--Wind Mountain Pete
Crockett
news:vr8jjk3...@corp.supernews.com...
The spot where this happened, Matheson Hammock park here in Miami, is where
I learned to windsurf. Incidentally, its also where car companies take a lot
of photo shoots advertisments etc. Benz, Acura and Honda to name some I've
seen, and used in several shots for the movie There's Something About Marry
(the scene where Stiller gets hooked through the lip w/ a fishing lure)
Kiters have pretty much taken over the place -- high tide is about 3ft deep
max over a large sand-bar. On some low tides the turtle grass wisps at the
surface (6-12"). Even on high wind days like we had early this week, there's
virtually zero chop. Lots of rays and skates scootin' out from beneath your
board as you startle them.
The way the launch is and the way our predominant wind is (NE - SE) there's
never any side shore wind. What makes matters worse at Matheson Hammock is
that at high tide, the water is literally about 3-5 feet from asphalt. On
big high-tides w/ some wind thrown in, the parking lot and road to the bay
gets soaked. I can't tell you how many times I drove my old volvo 240
through 6-12" of pure unadulterated bay water at Matheson growing up.
This kiting thing is really dangerous... I mean if a windsurfer gets
launched, we slam into a boom or mast - most often resulting in a bruise.
These guys get launched and they get thrown 20 ft in the air and 50yds down
wind. Carajo meng!
Lev Brouk
> Gorge.... this *should be* where most accidents involving kites occur mainly
> because of the fact that this is nuker-puff alley when it comes to wind
> gusts. However, there are rarely any kiting accidents at all here.... why
> not? My only guess (pure speculation) is that because the wind only travels
> the same direction as the shore (with few exceptions), there is a smaller
> risk factor of being dragged into an obstruction. So, the choice of where
> and when to launch seem to be the primary issues with most kiting accidents,
> am I right?
>
dangerous, especially when just launching the kite. You hit a lull,
and the kite starts drifting downwind, in a potentially more powerful
position. It's also not as controllable when there's no power in it.
Then, if a strong gusts hits you with the kite in the wrong position,
it'll almost definitely lift you up. Then it's just a matter of how
much space you have for the launch.
Personally, I don't think onshore winds are that bad, in fact it's my
preferred wind direction for kiting. But being safe does require a
bit of a sandy beach in case you get dragged on it. Onshore winds are
usually relatively regular, you never sail too far from the shore,
there's no risk of losing the board, and you can sail in the glassy
sections between the waves.
Sidehore/sideon is allright. Offshore/sideoff sucks bad time for
kiting, it's often dangerous in case of a breakdown, but most
importantly the winds are so irregular near the beach, that kills half
the fun.
- Lev
Heinz Kiosk
news:b2dca238.03111...@posting.google.com...
> It's not so much the gusts as the lulls that make irregular winds
> dangerous, especially when just launching the kite. You hit a lull,
> and the kite starts drifting downwind, in a potentially more powerful
> position. It's also not as controllable when there's no power in it.
> Then, if a strong gusts hits you with the kite in the wrong position,
> it'll almost definitely lift you up. Then it's just a matter of how
> much space you have for the launch.
>
the low-pressure-system driven winds that we get *invariably* have a
significant lull right in front of every gust. As you see the squall coming
across the water the first thing that happens (that signals the gust is
about to arrive) is that all of the power goes out of the sail and thats
when you have to brace yourself/bear away before the gust arrives. I hadn't
thought before what a significant problem this could pose for kites because
of the envelope contraction during the lull. My son loves extreme sports and
can't wait to try kiteboarding, which makes me more nervous than almost
anything else he could want to do.
Lev Brouk
Normandie myself, just a couple hundred km from the UK, so I think the
winds are similar.
Unless the wind is coming over the hills and has some REAL holes in
it, the normal lull/gust irregularities are OK.
In fact, in many ways kite is a better tool for "normal" irregular
winds than a windsurfing sail, except when it gets to 0-25, 0 being
the lulls, 25 the gusts. Also, I believe, in the UK much like in
Normandie you have long sandy beaches for the most part which is a
nice safety margin.
"Heinz Kiosk" <removethis.t...@ntlworld.com> wrote in message news:<_%%sb.49$s03...@newsfep4-glfd.server.ntli.net>...
Rainer Leuschke
On Fri, 14 Nov 2003, Cliff Frost wrote:
> Well one problem is that the consequences of a mistake or misjudgement
> seem to be so great with kiting.
>
> Given the high skill level of the last 3 injured (or killed) kiters
> we've heard about on this newsgroup, it looks to me like it's not as
> simple a matter as being "too relaxed".
Skill (as in lots of TOW) has little to do with good judgement and
appreciation of the dangers. I do believe that skilled fliers have a
greater tendency to launch even when they are nominally aware of the
issues however. Complacency. I think that's what he meant by "too
relaxed". It's not a simple matter at all. Not becoming complacent is a
tough and necessary requirement to stay safe.
R!
Paul Braunbehrens
what you are doing and there is a long sandy beach is pure B.S. This
guy knew what he was doing, yet he got hurt. Alameda has a long sandy
beach, but that hasn't helped the woman who got hurt there.
As it stands now, the sport is very dangerous, to anyone.
Also, saying that "he made this mistake, or he made that mistake"
doesn't make much sense. Humans are humans, and they make mistakes.
If simple mistakes can kill you then it's a dangerous activity.
I think that someone needs to sit down and come up with a set of rules
for this sport. I don't kite, so I don't know what they should be, but
probably something like:
Always wear a helmet.
Never launch until you are at least 100 feet from shore in onshore
conditions.
Always use some kind of safety release mechanism.
Also, I think the current safety mechanisms are no good. What we need
is a system where you have to hold against the power of the wind, and
if you are taken by surprise the power goes out of the kite. I don't
know if this is possible.
Even with these safety measures I'm not sure that kiting can ever be
reasonably safe, i.e. within a reasonable measure of control.
I used to ride a motorcycle, I SCUBA dive way past recreational limits,
I windsurf and I snowboard. Kiting seems like it's a blast and very
easy to learn, but I'm not touching one until these issues are
resolved.
BTW, if you chose to Kite then please don't do so under the illlusion
that it "can be safe if you know what you're doing". At the very
least, if you have a family, get a good insurance policy.
Just my .02. If I come accross a little harsh, it may have something
to do with reading about people getting hurt once a month.
Alan
dragged between two houses and into a street that had overhead power lines.
He could've released his kite at any point but chose not to. Instead, he
yelled for help. Even if kiters can release, who wants to when you get into
trouble. Human nature is to hold on to something. Perhaps a drill where
kiters learn to release when in trouble, kind of like martial arts
instructors teach you how to fall properly, would be wise. Not just how to
release, but actually let the kite go flying.
The same kiter bloodied his arm good by getting dragged across a sand bar
later on in the day. Tore the skin off between his elbow and wrist.
Alan
--
Windsurfing Club: http://www.ibscc.org
"Paul Braunbehrens" <baka...@insertthesamewordthatisbeforetheatsign.com>
wrote in message
Rainer Leuschke
On Fri, 14 Nov 2003, Paul Braunbehrens wrote:
> I think that someone needs to sit down and come up with a set of rules
You mean like these?
http://www.kiteforum.com/phpbb/viewtopic.php?t=3881
R!
Glenn Woodell
alannc44@{nospam}ix.netcom.com says...
>
>Last Sunday a buddy and I had to grab the seat of a kiter who was getting
>dragged between two houses and into a street that had overhead power lines.
>He could've released his kite at any point but chose not to. Instead, he
>yelled for help. Even if kiters can release, who wants to when you get into
>trouble. Human nature is to hold on to something. Perhaps a drill where
>kiters learn to release when in trouble, kind of like martial arts
>instructors teach you how to fall properly, would be wise. Not just how to
>release, but actually let the kite go flying.
I'm sure part of the problem is in letting go of expensive gear for fear that
it will get trashed when if you hold on to it you might be able to recover
with no harm done. Also, imagine getting jerked 4 feet in the air a few times.
No big deal. You come back down. Then imagine going 8 feet a few time. No big
deal. A little fun actually. Now imagine going 15 feet and thinking you
might come back down like all the rest of the times. Why would you let go.
Once you realize you're already in trouble who wants to let go at 20 feet or
more off the pavement. I think I'd try to hold on and land the darn thing. But
what do I know. I've never flown one of the things. I've only been dragged
along on the ground by stunt kites. Even these small stunt kites have
tremendous pull.
Glenn
Marc Rosen
word "kiter" for "diver
There are old kiters and there are bold kiters, but there are no old, bold
kiters"
Marc (who does not dislike kiting, but thinks it has more risks than other
means of wind powered pleasure)
"Paul Braunbehrens" <baka...@insertthesamewordthatisbeforetheatsign.com>
wrote in message
news:141120031343528060%baka...@insertthesamewordthatisbeforetheatsign.com.
..
srm
> yelled for help.
I doubt that he "chose" not to release. My guess is that his
instict/training took over, and that was to hang onto the kite.
Even if kiters can release, who wants to when you get into
> trouble. Human nature is to hold on to something. Perhaps a drill where
> kiters learn to release when in trouble
My guess is that kiters are taught that releasing the kite is the
worst thing they can do, and frankly, it probably is because if they
do, they endanger the lives of the people around them. Once the kite
is free, your have this super-powerful wind-bucket blowing downwind
attached to razer sharp lines that any Joe can grab onto and get hurt.
At the very least, it's $1500 blowing away. The real problem that
kites face right now is that they don't automatically depower like a
windsurfer does. I think that that is one of the intrinsic problems
with kiting that needs to be dealt with in order for kiting to become
save. On a windsurfer, if the sh!t hits the fan, you just let go, but
on a kite, you can't because if you do, your kite is a mile downwind
dragging it's razer sharp lines along with it, at best, you have a
very long swim. "When a windsurfer loses control, he crashes and the
excitement is over, when a kite boarder loses control, the exictment
has just begun."
SM
Paul Braunbehrens
known kiteboarding accidents to see if they would have been prevented
had these rules been followed?
In article
<Pine.A41.4.58.03...@dante42.u.washington.edu>, Rainer
Leuschke <rai...@u.washington.edu> wrote:
Heinz Kiosk
> > trouble. Human nature is to hold on to something. Perhaps a drill where
> > kiters learn to release when in trouble
>
> My guess is that kiters are taught that releasing the kite is the
> worst thing they can do, and frankly, it probably is because if they
> do, they endanger the lives of the people around them. Once the kite
> is free, your have this super-powerful wind-bucket blowing downwind
> attached to razer sharp lines that any Joe can grab onto and get hurt.
> At the very least, it's $1500 blowing away. The real problem that
> kites face right now is that they don't automatically depower like a
> windsurfer does. I think that that is one of the intrinsic problems
> with kiting that needs to be dealt with in order for kiting to become
> save. On a windsurfer, if the sh!t hits the fan, you just let go, but
> on a kite, you can't because if you do, your kite is a mile downwind
> dragging it's razer sharp lines along with it, at best, you have a
> very long swim. "When a windsurfer loses control, he crashes and the
> excitement is over, when a kite boarder loses control, the exictment
> has just begun."
> SM
line, take the pull away and the kite just flops down. Sure, it'll blow
along in the wind but with nothing like the speed or power that it develops
with line tension. Also I think the "razor sharp wires" thing is overstated.
By far the safest course for bystanders if the thing is out of control is to
let it go. IMO *far* less dangerous than an out of control windsurf rig
bowling along a beach.
BTW I am against kitesurfing and I believe it to be extremely dangerous and
anti-social. There is ample evidence IMHO of skilled experienced kiters
being badly hurt.
Tom
Heinz Kiosk
know of.
Tom
"Paul Braunbehrens" <baka...@insertthesamewordthatisbeforetheatsign.com>
wrote in message
news:141120032227041635%baka...@insertthesamewordthatisbeforetheatsign.com...
Steven Slaby
>
> My guess is that kiters are taught that releasing the kite is the
> worst thing they can do, and frankly, it probably is because if they
> do, they endanger the lives of the people around them. Once the kite
> is free, your have this super-powerful wind-bucket blowing downwind
> attached to razer sharp lines that any Joe can grab onto and get hurt.
> At the very least, it's $1500 blowing away.
The all the kites I have own and have flown (non-inflatables) were set up
that if you released the bar, the safety brake would kick in, and the kite
would collapse and slowly drift to the ground still attached to the person
by the safety brake. Isn't there something similar for an inflatable setup ?
Maybe that's another reason why I love kiteskiing in the winter with foils
but am not remotely interested in getting into it on the water.
Steve.
--
----------------------------------------------
Ottawa Windsurfing http://ottawawindsurfing.ca
The Dog
removethis.t...@ntlworld.com says...
> By far the safest course for bystanders if the thing is out of control is to
> let it go. IMO *far* less dangerous than an out of control windsurf rig
> bowling along a beach.
Unless of course that runaway kite happens to blow up onto the nearby
Interstate like happened here last year. Probably has something to
do with why that launch was closed to kiters. At least that's what
the kiters who used to launch there think... They city didn't
explain.
Peter Berkey
> On a windsurfer, if the sh!t hits the fan, you just let go <snip>
This is precisely what happened when a fellow sailor lost control and bailed
last July at Cheap Beach here in the Gorge.... his rig came flying at me and
the mast hit me in the neck, it knocked me completely unconscious and I
could have easily drowned.
We should have all been taught NOT to let go of the rig in windsurfing
durring our first lesson, and with good reason!! IMHO, it's much more
dangerous to let go in windsurfing... especially when we're talking 40+
winds.
--Wind Mountain Pete
Peter Berkey
become more safe.... people just need to know and understand what is meant
by "acceptable risk" in the sport of kiting. Seems to me that this sport
is attracting more and more risk-takers who search out the limits of the
sport and then try to take it a little further. Unfortunately, as with
flying an aircraft.... there is no forgiveness when ya push the limits too
far involving the freak powers of nature.
There are certainly some fundamental flaws with kite equipment, and as soon
as these are worked out I believe this will be an awesome sport. I'm just
surprised and relieved that there hasn't been more deaths as a result of
these accidents.
--Wind Mountain Pete
RMoore 41
"accidents" the thing that jumps out is the VENUE is not appropriate for
kitesurfing. It is very obvious that the recent incident was a result of the
simple fact that there wasn't enough room and no margin of error by the flyer.
You look at the accident reports you don't even hear about the minor ones like
broken bones or lost fingers but only the most serious and death. In every case
that I have read about the flyer hit something like a car, pier, rock jetty,
building, tree ect ect. So in these cases bad venue and bad judgement to even
be there. As far as "rules" this won't happen as a big percentage of kiters
won't wear safety gear like helmets and impact vests and will launch and fly at
anyplace they feel like. Who would enforce the rules? the park, government or
law enforcement, not a chance. So what needs to happen is banning from areas
that are multiple use areas and areas that are not suitable for safe kiting.
This won't happen till someone sues the park or agency that controls the site
and causes the agency to rethink what kind of usage that park should have. As
far as us, the windsurfing community that shares the sites with kiters, is to
keep ourselves safe by staying alert to whats overhead, stay out of the path of
a kite and report problems to the agency that controls the site. RON
Rainer Leuschke
On Fri, 14 Nov 2003, srm wrote:
> My guess is that kiters are taught that releasing the kite is the
> worst thing they can do, and frankly, it probably is because if they
> do, they endanger the lives of the people around them. Once the kite
> is free, your have this super-powerful wind-bucket blowing downwind
The standard setup is to have a leash connected to one of the kite lines.
Let go of the bar and the kite falls down hanging by one line with minimal
pull. In lessons newbies are taught to ditch when things go south. They
are also taught to have a large safety buffer downwind and to the sides.
Unfortunately a significant number of "experienced" riders (first and
foremost pros) do not use a kite leash. AFAIK Alex had a kite leash system
on his kite but he put himself in a spot where he had no chance of using
it. R!
Peter Berkey
> the thing that jumps out is the VENUE
Venue is certainly a major issue. Don't understand why some launches turn
into kite venues. OTOH, there's places here in the Gorge that would make
terrific kite sites, but all the kiters seem to go to the same site to
launch.
Safe equipment is certainly a key issue with kites. Kind of reminds me of
our tele ski gear, Ron. When are they gonna come out with a releasable
binding that performs like a HammerHead?? (Don't mean to go to OT with this
thread, but dang, I was hoping that by now we would be there already with
safe tele gear!!)
Every sport certainly has got safety issues ('cept the sport of watching
sports on television??).... unfortunatly, kiting just seems to have more
safety issues than most. That being said, I'm still planning on taking kite
lessons here in the spring.
-- Wind Mountain Pete
"RMoore 41" <rmoo...@aol.com> wrote in message
news:20031115114831...@mb-m10.aol.com...
RMoore 41
importantly is being under control, knowing your personal limits and using good
judgement. There is some releasable tele bindings out there and Karhu has a
binding that has good system and lots of skiers are getting on them. But
whether or not it makes the skier safer is questionable. I don't use releasable
bindings as I don't want to add weight to my feet and I don't want my skis
coming off. My issue is stated above, control, limits and judgement. I do think
that the new generation kites have good and solid release systems and the guy
who just got hurt was on one of the best(recon) he just didn't have time to
pull the red ball. RON
srm
>
> This is precisely what happened when a fellow sailor lost control and bailed
> last July at Cheap Beach here in the Gorge.... his rig came flying at me and
> the mast hit me in the neck, it knocked me completely unconscious and I
> could have easily drowned.
>
> We should have all been taught NOT to let go of the rig in windsurfing
> durring our first lesson, and with good reason!! IMHO, it's much more
> dangerous to let go in windsurfing... especially when we're talking 40+
> winds.
>
dangerous, and an out of control or flying away windsurfer or kite or
hobie cat or beach umbrella could be lethal. My point is that a
windsurfing sail will naturally depower. You get hit by a big gust,
you release your back hand and the sail depowers. You might go
splash, but the ride is over. On a kite, if you get hit by a gust you
have to fly the kite into the neutral zone to depower all the while
being dragged. Even in the neutral zone, the kite has the ability to
drag you or pick you up. The alternative is to use the safety line so
the kite completly collapses. I've never seen anyone use this even
though I've seen people get dragged down the beach. There needs to be
a way for the kite to completly "sheet out" immediatly or for the
kite's natural state to be sheeted out so that when a gust hits, it
automatically sheets out unless the rider is sheeting in.
FFF
> This is precisely what happened when a fellow sailor lost control and bailed
> last July at Cheap Beach here in the Gorge.... his rig came flying at me and
> the mast hit me in the neck, it knocked me completely unconscious and I
> could have easily drowned.
>
> We should have all been taught NOT to let go of the rig in windsurfing
> durring our first lesson, and with good reason!! IMHO, it's much more
> dangerous to let go in windsurfing... especially when we're talking 40+
> winds.
Without trying to defend the guy who hit you; he clearly intended to save the
situation. If the nose of his board had hit you in the sternum with him still in
the straps, he would have put an end to all your worries right there.
Otherwise, I totally agree.
florian
Peter Berkey
> Without trying to defend the guy who hit you; he clearly intended to save
the
> situation.
don't know about that.... I'm still really amazed that he didn't stick
around much after the accident.... IMO, he was clearly more interested in
self-preservation than he was interested in saving the situation. Lesson
to be learned there... most important thing when any windsurfer feels the
sudden urge to ditch is to bring the sail down into the water with you.
Ideally, bail out on the windward side as this will help keep the sail from
catching air on the way down. I always grab the handle on the nose of the
boom with a firm grip just before I bail.... this de-powers the sail very
effectively, and doesn't allow the sail to get away when I hit the water.
pluvious
windsurfers. That's the nature of the beast. (I'd also argue that
that's one of the reasons its so thrilling.) Because that's the case,
it's incumbent on anybody who kites to educate themselves about the
risks involved, and prepare themselves to deal with those risks in the
event that something bad happens. Also, don't forget, something bad
WILL DEFINITELY happen, at some point, and you'll have to be prepared.
First and foremost, proper safety equipment -- helmet, impact vest,
reliable (test) safety release and kite leash. I'm amazed that few
kiters actually wear helmets. Why don't they? Caust they're stupid, or
vain, or lazy, or just can't be bothered. There's no excuse. There are
those that ride motorcycles without helmets, too. IMO, that's just
dumb.
As with cars or motorcycles, it only takes half a milli-second of
innattention, or distraction, or carelessness, to ruin a perfectly
nice day. That's why the smart money always acts as if the worst is
about to happen. Always drive with BOTH hands on the wheel, in case
your tire blows out. Always assume the guy in the other lane is going
to veer unexpectedly. Assume the worst. How many of us actually follow
that rule? Not many.
When kiting, one should ALWAYS be thinking in terms of worst cast
scenario. If the worst that COULD happen, at any particular instant,
DOES happen, are you suffuciently protected? Narrow launch spot and
gusty onshore winds? Don't launch. Shallow water? Don't boost too
high, you might break a line. Never ride anywhere near obstruction.
Distance is your friend. Don't keep you kite at zenith on or near
land.
All of that being said, there are still going to be accidents. Yes,
kiting is dangerous. So is driving. Ditto rock climbing, snow
boarding, etc. Always work within your limits and respect the rights
(and lives) of others around you. Don't get complacent. Don't let you
desire for stoke to get the best of you. Be safe. Always ride as if
your life depends on it, because it does.
Tom - Chicago
conditions?? (Gusty onshore winds, narrow, hazard strewn launch??
I don't ride a sinker in offshore winds in November on Lake Michigan. I
could - and would likely have a great ride - but I don't. I ride my F175 -
because I know I can always get it back to shore.
Tom - Chicago
"Paul Braunbehrens" <baka...@insertthesamewordthatisbeforetheatsign.com>
wrote in message
news:141120031343528060%baka...@insertthesamewordthatisbeforetheatsign.com.
..
WARDOG
Tom - Chicago wrote:
>> I don't ride a sinker in offshore winds in November on Lake Michigan. I
>> could - and would likely have a great ride - but I don't. I ride my F175 -
>> because I know I can always get it back to shore.
Excellent point, Tom...
I learned the hard way why you don't see many waveboards being ridden at
Chrissy Field...nice, loooooong swim in from almost under the Golden
Gate one day...
Speaking of swimming...kiting and swimming are inextricably connected...
Had a local kiter customer lose his spreader bar 1/4 mile out...
He got pretty worked getting in...his wakeboard didn't float him all
that well and his arms ended up about 6" longer...;-)
WARDOG
http://surfingsports.com
Alan
Hookipa. It is a pro kiter who broke his leg on something along the shore or
upon landing from great heights. Remove the <nospam> after http.
Alan
http://<nospam>groups.msn.com/windsurfingcincinnati/mauioct03.msnw?action=Sh
owPhoto&PhotoID=737
--
Windsurfing Club: http://www.ibscc.org
"WARDOG" <war...@XXXsurfingsports.com> wrote in message
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