Triple pulley on sails - why?
nikita
pulley at the foot of their sails, as opposed to an eyelet. I used to
have a bunch of Ezzys and found it very convenient to have a hook
attached to my extension, which I can then easily set up to use with
any of the sails. Now I got a Sailworks, which appears to be a nice
sail, but it comes with a triple pulley at the bottom. This means that
I either have to re-thread the downhaul line every time I switch
between Sailworks and my Ezzys or have a dedicated extension for the
SW.
Why the heck do they do this? I know that North, for example, uses
eyelets, just as Ezzys. Some others, such as NP and Gaastra go with
pre-installed pulleys. Wouldn't it be easier for everyone if they all
had eyelets and we'd save ourselves 5 minutes of aggravation having to
unthread and re-thread the line every time?
I will probably end up with a dedicated extension base (the ones that
are common for europin extensions), but having to spend an extra 20 or
40 on this seems like a waste as well.
Nikita.
LeeD
lines thru the triple pulleys, about the same as untangling the lines
from the pulleys which seem to often break and take up 2" of space so
your sail is too high off the deck.
Sometimes, it's not all about convenience and ease.
You have to adapt to a changing world.
My North has a single grommet, and I can figure that one out too....
I'm sure if you rigged your triple pulley like 6 times, you'll find
it's just as fast as unhooking your pulley hook, untwisting the lines,
and hooking in from the right direction.
rath...@gmail.com
mast, the tension holding the hook in place goes away, and all of a
sudden your sail will start floating away from the rest of your stuff
(so I hear).
Also, I've used the pulley hook system before and I didn't like it
because:
-the rollers on the pulley hooks were generally small and of poor
quality making downhauling harder
-using the pulley hook extended the foot of the sail another two inches
off the deck of the board
I did like the pulley hook system b/c it was convenient. Also, the
problems I addressed could be rectified. Some manufacturers who design
their sails for pulley hooks recess the tack grommet a few centimeters
up the foot to compensate for the pulley, and somebody could certainly
make a better pulley hook. I also used the streamlined pulley, which
was very good quality and made downhauling a breeze, but it was a
cotter pin design, so there were no convenience factor advantage.
I have now gone to a loop and go system w/ my sails which I find works
very well (at least for sails 6.0 and smaller). With this system, all
I have to do is pass the loop through the tack pulley and hook it onto
the other side of the extension. I use NP sails and extensions w/ a
good spectra line. I believe you can do this same thing on the newer
Fiberspar Euro Pin extensiosn. Very fast and easy to rig up. To make
things even faster, I have a separate extension for each sail, so I set
it and forget it. Furthermore, I have a bowline pre-tied w/ some
harness line tubing to give me a built in downhaul handle, so I don't
even need to use any cranks or tug cleats. I also store the extension
in the rolled up sail in the sail bag, so when I go to rig, it's all
there for me. Here's some pictures of the loop and go:
http://homepage.mac.com/rathokan/PhotoAlbum10.html
BTW, I believe North Sails now have triple roller tack pulleys on their
sails. Loft used to use grommets, and now they use pulleys too. Same
w/ the Sailworks Revos.
kike
Thanks for the pics, that'll save me some time when rigging
Jerry McEwen
Along with the other reasons already posted, it allows you to get the
foot of the sail closer to the board instead of always being stuck
with the gap created by the hook.
Craig Goudie
and
it won't let me rig the sail down to the bottom of the mast. I have
Sailworks
sails which have a sorta triple pulley incorporated, I also sail Northwaves
which have
dual eyelets. I rig them both with the "thread" method. Less required
parts
is good parts in my book, and I'd undoubtedly lose the hook and pulley, so
I'm good without it.
Oh, to answer the question, they do it because the majority of their
customers want it that way.
Both Sailworks and Northwave have been very good about implementing
(reasonable) customer
suggestions.
-Craig
"nikita" <npia...@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:1138387908.2...@g44g2000cwa.googlegroups.com...
Dan Weiss
There remains the issue of lack of purchase for bigger sails or at
least for sails that require a lot of downhaul tension. The 4:1
purchase on the shortcut simply does provide the same purchase compared
to the standard 6:1 or even 8:1 seen on some bases. More than 4:1 is
needed just to downhaul anywhere close to minimum on large sails, and
even if you are strong enough, you probably cannot achieve the small
increments required to actually tune. Even if Hercules can do it, the
base itself may not stand up to the focussed stress when using 2 of 3
or 4 of the rollers. So you need to determine for yourself whether you
can use this great shortcut on each sail.
Another big reason why most sailmakers no longer use only a grommet on
the tack is that they know many consumers will not rig with a hook and,
therefore, may never get close to adequate tuning due to the friction
of the line against itself and around the press ring. The solution,
therefore, is "drop" the foot/ carve out an area at the tack and hang a
pulley. I think this is less expensive than a stainless grommet and
ensures that the sail can be downhauled properly, whereby the tack is
close to the mast because the tack pulley can be pulled much closer
than any grommet. Doing this greatly enhances draft stability and
removes a point of variability and helps achieve more consistant and
repeatable tuning.
-Dan
nikita
pulley.
The reasoning that you can get the sail closer seems strange to me -
can't you just put the grommet half an inch higher up the sail to
account for the hook? I think I saw some sail (North?) with a small
cutout in the foot in front of the mast that accomodated the hook, so
you could get the foot of the sail all the way down to the base.
People forgetting to use the hook with a grommet would be a problem,
but that doesn't seem like a good reason to do away with a grommet. If
people go with a 4:1 purchase just to make life easier and NOT do the
thread, why is this much better than achieving the same 4:1 leverage
through the grommet? There is not that much friction with just 2 ropes.
It would suck, of course, but not much more than the 4:1 through the
pulleys.
Treating the hook as "extra equipment" is also kinda funny - it's
always attached to the extension, never goes anywhere, you don't have
to adjust it - nothing. Costs no more than $10 and you only need 1 or
2. Having a separate extension for each sail - that's EXTRA!
People using the 4:1 system actually kinda proves my point: it's a pain
to thread all the pulleys so people take shortcuts and not use them!!!
At the same time, I have my 8:1 hook set up and ready to go all the
time, giving me easy adjustments.
If I were retired and had all the day on the beach, maybe I won't care.
But I often go sailing after (or before work - 7-8.30), so I value
every 2 minutes that I have to spend fiddling with equipment.
Well, maybe I am weird... :)
Nikita.
rath...@gmail.com
well. in order to use 4:1, you need to have good rollers on both the
sail and the base cleat and some good line.
I personally don't find threading 6:1 to be a pain, and I gladly do it
on my bigger sails. But, if I can get away w/ not doing it on my wave
sails, I don't see a reason not to. My main reason for using the 4:1
loop and go on MY sails is that it is extremely fast AND still easy to
downhaul. If it made it too hard to downhaul, I would thread the lines
6:1 (which I do on my bigger sails).
I think another problem related to this question in general is that
most people don' t know how to thread downhaul lines properly w/o
twists and extra friction. I know when I was first learning to sail
and rig, this was the hardest part: threading the downhaul lines and
putting enough downhaul tension. Of course I was using a Powerex
Flex-Top Red mast and some Windwing Slalom Comps, so that may have been
part of the problem (at least w/ getting sufficient downhaul). I
remember trying to rig up one day and breaking three downhaul lines in
a row! I went home after that w/o sailling.
I used to hate the pulley orientation of Windwings and how you couldn't
thread the lines sequentially (like most people do) w/o crossing the
lines. My first Gaastra had the pulley turned 90 degrees so it was
easier for me to figure out the threading. However, after many years
of sailing now, I prefer the "non rotated" orientation that you'll find
on NP, Naish, North, etc... now that I have the theading figured out.
Anyway, I've always been a big fan of the loop and go, whether it be on
a a mast base or a boom. My first boom was a Windsurfing Hawaii Power
Taper just b/c it had a loop and go in the tailpiece.
oh boy, i guess i'm rambling now. sorry :-(
LeeD
You ready to sail yet?
Are you surfing? I passed on last Sat, drove to Cronk, passed there,
and played tennis back at Berkeley, the 3 bridges tour, getting up
early......
John Sitka
streamlined
'TRIPLE-BLOCK' Tack Block. The harken airblock in the correct size
needs a shackle.
Even when the triple pulley "isn't a pulley" it's better. Get some
Swiftcord from
Annapolis Performance Sailing out of their Sale Rack section and then
reevaluate
downhaul desires, no sense solving the wrong problem.
Paul Braunbehrens
tubing, does it fit in the extension?
Also, I don't like that some sails don't have enough clearance above
the pulleys, so it's hard to slip a loop over. Loft is one like that.
With spectra line it should be easier, but the thicker chinook stuff is
near impossible.
In article <1138390005.6...@g49g2000cwa.googlegroups.com>,
rath...@gmail.com
all the extra line stores inside the extension.
kev
rath...@gmail.com
Thanks for asking, but I'm still screwed up. :-(
kev
wee...@aol.com
<< Hey LeeD,
Thanks for asking, but I'm still screwed up. :-( >>
You won't be alone soon. I go for an MRI this Sunday on my right
shoulder. Looks like surgery may be needed for repair.
Tsunami
All the above negatives for a grommet are correct... but I'll add one.
The eyelet / grommet is near on impossible to replace if it tears out. It
goes thru 4 or 5 layers of sail material, so you need to replace 4 layers
sail cloth and unpick about the whole bottom one-third of the sail. The
newer pulley sustems are usually held on with one bit of nylon webbing.
5 min job to fix if need be..... plus the aforementioned pluses like newbies
can downhaul it almost to spec easily, no tangled lines, it can rig close to
the board than using a second downhaul pulley thru a grommet and so on.
BTW to all the dudes above, I'm a wavesailr but have used race sails on
ovvasion right up to now and bever had a downhauling problem at 4:1. And I
am nowhere near as fit or strong as many w/surfers.
Craig Goudie
-Craig
<wee...@aol.com> wrote in message
news:1138449290.7...@g49g2000cwa.googlegroups.com...
rath...@gmail.com
Tsunami wrote:
> BTW to all the dudes above, I'm a wavesailr but have used race sails on
> ovvasion right up to now and bever had a downhauling problem at 4:1. And I
> am nowhere near as fit or strong as many w/surfers.
Yes, downhauling is all about leverage and how you use it. I always
downhaul by hand, but more than anything, I'm pushing w/ my legs as
opposed to pulling w/ my arms. Makes a big difference.
rath...@gmail.com
I'm sorry to hear that your on the injured list, too. I hope your MRI
reveals some positive things about your injury
kev
Bob T
When sails started going to high tension the sail manufacturers started
having grommets rip out of the bottom of the sail. The grommets only
grab on to about the first 1/2 inch of sail fabric around the outside
edge of the grommet, so it was fairly easy to pull them out. On some of
the big race sails, people would us a 6:1 purchase thru the grommet,
then hook the rope to their harness and use both legs to apply tension.
This kind of tension lead to many grommets being yanked right out of
the sail. To help spread the load of the grommet farther up the sail,
some manufacturers started running a piece of Dacron Webbing thru the
grommet then sewing that webbing to the sail. Problem was, the hole
size of the grommet limited the size of webbing. I say dacron,
because nylon webbing was too stretchy, and as the load was applied to
the webbing, it would stretch up to the first stitching, then break
those stitches, then move up to the next stiches, eventually unzipping
itself. To fix the problem, manufacturers went to a tripple pulley and
heavy duty strap, similar to the solution boat sail makers used on
larger genoa's on sail boats. With a good, strong, long, low stretch
strap, the load applied to the triple pulleys is spread out over a
large area of the bottom of the sail. No more tear-outs!
Paul Braunbehrens
nikita <npia...@yahoo.com> wrote:
> But I often go sailing after (or before work - 7-8.30), so I value
> every 2 minutes that I have to spend fiddling with equipment.
>
> Well, maybe I am weird... :)
>
> Nikita.
>
I don't think you're weird, I feel the same way. I often have less
than 2 hours from walking out the door to home and showered. 2mn adds
up. Also, it's typically more, because the more steps you have to do
the more time you spend between steps. This is one of the reasons I
like the Power XT extension, because the way I use it it's loop over
the pulley, crank down, go. As opposed to thread, lay down sail, go
search for downhaul tool, come back to sail, pick up sail, insert
downhaul tool, thread line into downhaul tool, downhaul, remove line
from downhaul tool, set down sail, put tool away.
It's the same for the boom. I use adjustable outhaul partly because
it's fast. I just slip the loops over the sail, and tighten the
outhaul. I don't have to fiddle with getting it adjusted right,
because I can just fiddle with it while I'm sailing.
(Oh crap, I just saw the windgraph. It's finally blowing, and I'm
stuck here nursing a cold. Damn!)
nikita
This seems to be the most reasonable explanation to me. I can see how a
grommet would be tougher to keep in place. Hopefully, Ezzy designers
know what they are doing and I won't have this problem. I've rigged one
of my sails at least 50 times now and the only tears I see are on the
sail itself (monofilm near the luff). The grommet seems solid and will
probably outlive the sail.
I have to say, I am big on user-friendliness. Spent an hour today
trying to screw in a deep tuttle fin - I hate it already...
Nikita.
LeeD
m--newsguy
I can't for the life of me figure out how the rigging scheme
discussed and illustrated in these photos
(http://homepage.mac.com/rathokan/PhotoAlbum10.html ) As I love
rigging tricks, I'd really like to know (though I can thread a triple
pulley in a few seconds).
I see how you're creating the loop that passes over the first and
third sail pulley. What I'm not understanding is specifically what
the loop hooks on to when you bring it back down to the base of the
extension. It looks like a setup similar to the back of a Fiberspar
wave boom, but those tailpieces have a hook to loop the line on.
Nobody else seems mystified, so I appear to have a blind spot.
Please help, thanks!
Dan Weiss
left-most position. I think the NPs use the same in some of their
models. I think Kevin's shot does not show the loop being fitted
around the open #1 pulley. Hope this explains it.
-Dan
Paul Braunbehrens
they have a little how to on threading the extension. I took a look at
it, but thought their explanation was overly complicated. Someone once
showed me a neat trick I've been using ever since, this is for
extensions that have the rollers perpendicular to the ones on the sail.
Looking down at the extension and the sail, properly lined up, put the
line into the same "spot" it came from. So if the line is coming out
of the top/right, go to the top right position on the sail. Now it's
coming out of the bottom right, so go into the bottom right on the
extension, etc. Since the sail and the extension pulleys are
perpendicular, TOP and BOTTOM refers to either side of a single pulley
on the sail, while it refers to the first and last pulley on the
extension. The opposite is true of LEFT and RIGHT. The explanation
sounds complicated, but in practice it's easy, just works and always
results in a clean rig with no crossing.
This saved me a lot of grief when I was johnsing to go sail and kept
tangling my lines.
In article <1138724321.2...@z14g2000cwz.googlegroups.com>, Dan
m--newsguy
learned from the rigging instructions that came with a Naish sail) look
involved, but once you do it, it looks obvious. It certainly is easier
to downhaul!