97' Mistral Explosion 298
Hookipa1
I am considering buying a leftover 97 Mistral Explosion. Does anyone
have any good or bad comments on this board?
Thanks..
Frank
Keith Meder
Frank,
I've got a 1996 Echo, which is basically the same board, and I have
really enjoyed it. I weigh 180 lbs and use it mostly with a 7.3m and an
8.3m, I think it would be comfortable with as small as a 5.5m, if the
chop wasn't too big.
It is a very stable board and even though it is a 140 leters, it doesn't
feel big on the water. It planes quickly, is fairly fast on all points
of sail, and is easy to jibe.
Keith
Paul Hancock
Hookipa1 wrote:
>
> I am considering buying a leftover 97 Mistral Explosion. Does anyone
> have any good or bad comments on this board?
>
> Thanks..
> Frank
heavier sailor and want a board for the 15-20k range b) are a beginner
short boarder and looking for a board that will cover a wide range of
wind conditions, and c) if you want to be able to sail (plane) on those
lighter days using a bigger board.
I use the Echo in conditions usually in the 10-15 knots with 7.5m-6.5m
sail (I weigh 160). Much above this I switch to my Screamer but the Echo
can definetly handle higher winds. If you sail mostly in 15-20+ I would
recommend a smaller board unless you're a heavyweight. Overall it's a
great board, fast and fun to sail. I always take it with me no matter
what the forecast because invaribly that 25knot forecast turns out to be
a 15 knot day.
Paul H.
Bryan Alton
Paul Hancock wrote:
> I use the Echo in conditions usually in the 10-15 knots with 7.5m-6.5m
> sail (I weigh 160). Much above this I switch to my Screamer but the Echo
> can definetly handle higher winds. If you sail mostly in 15-20+ I would
> recommend a smaller board unless you're a heavyweight. Overall it's a
> great board, fast and fun to sail. I always take it with me no matter
> what the forecast because invaribly that 25knot forecast turns out to be
> a 15 knot day.
>
> Paul H.
I also have a Echo and am curious to know what size
fin do you use with the 7.5m sail in the lighter winds ?
Thanks
Bryan
Paul Hancock
> I also have a Echo and am curious to know what size
> fin do you use with the 7.5m sail in the lighter winds ?
>
> Thanks
>
> Bryan
I use a True Ames Series II 16.5" fin with the 7.5m Katana. It's a
great light wind fin but I find at the upper end of the sail's range I
have to switch to a smaller (15-14") fin to keep the board under
control.
TomBuckOb2
Paul Wrote:
<I use a True Ames Series II 16.5" fin with the 7.5m Katana. It's a
great light wind fin but I find at the upper end of the sail's range I
have to switch to a smaller (15-14") fin to keep the board under
control:>
This was a big revelation to me this last season with new "wide range" sails -
that I could switch fins when overpowered instead of rigging down the sail
size. I even switch fins, then switch boards before re-rigging the sail.
Anyone else experience this with new sails?
Tom O'Brien - Chicago
Vesa kuusava
tombu...@aol.com (TomBuckOb2) wrote:
>
>This was a big revelation to me this last season with new "wide range" sails -
>that I could switch fins when overpowered instead of rigging down the sail
>size. I even switch fins, then switch boards before re-rigging the sail.
>
>Anyone else experience this with new sails?
>
>
>Tom O'Brien - Chicago
>
>
Of course. What one can do more, is to trim the sail according
changing situation:
So: retune sail, switch fins, then switch boards and last re-rig the
sail.
os...@dlc.fi
Bob Jacobson
> The spookiest thing is I now sail a 7.0 - 7.5 in the same conditions I
>
> sialed a 6.0-.6.5 in a year ago, and those were up half a meter from
> the
> year before! And these arger sails are faster and easier to sail.
> Way to go all you sail designers!
> later
> >
> >Tom O'Brien - Chicago
Tom, Tom .......
They're just making flat sails with no low end grunt.
Bob Jacobson
sailquik (Roger Jackson)
>I use a True Ames Series II 16.5" fin with the 7.5m Katana. It's a
>great light wind fin but I find at the upper end of the sail's range I
>have to switch to a smaller (15-14") fin to keep the board under
>control:>
recreational sailing, is a whole bunch of fin.
I use 13"-14" quite often (except for those darn "first mark straight
upwind" races) with my 7.5 and 8.2 and I don't see too many follks going
much if any higher.
I have a 46cm for the 305, but only use it in under 15 mph, then I fo to a
40cm, which is usually quite a bit faster and much easier to sail. Goes
upwind, once the water gets flowing, just as well as the 46!
>
>This was a big revelation to me this last season with new "wide range" sails -
>that I could switch fins when overpowered instead of rigging down the sail
>size. I even switch fins, then switch boards before re-rigging the sail.
>
>Anyone else experience this with new sails?
I'll post a little test on an 8.5 Sailworks Retro, hopefully over the
weekend or early next week. The sail was in Illinois yesterday, so come on
UPS!
All of the new sails seem to have a greatly extended range, but the Retro
seems to top all the others I've tried thus far.
The spookiest thing is I now sail a 7.0 - 7.5 in the same conditions I
sialed a 6.0-.6.5 in a year ago, and those were up half a meter from the
year before! And these arger sails are faster and easier to sail.
Way to go all you sail designers!
later
>
>Tom O'Brien - Chicago
>
>
sailquik (Roger Jackson) US 3704 |Ph#in MD 301-872-9459
F2/North Sails/ True Ames/Rainbow|Ph#in NC 919-995-3204
US Sail Lvl 1 WS Instructor
sailquik (Roger Jackson)
>Of course. What one can do more, is to trim the sail according
>changing situation:
>So: retune sail, switch fins, then switch boards and last re-rig the
>sail.
Try and adjustable outhaul setup. Then you can not only tune the
sail/rig for windspeed changes, but also for changes in the direction
you are sailing.
Harden up on the outhaul for upwind, go tho med. outhaul for max.
reaching speed , and slack it for better downwind performance.
Depending on the sail, and adjustable or crankable downhaul system
may give you even more range!
later
sf...@fhm.healthplan.com
Um, I'm afraid I don't follow your thinking. You're talking like rigging the
correct size sail is something to be avoided at all costs. What's the big
deal? Lets see...instead of rigging the correct size sail I'm going to save a
lot of time and effort by: 1. Carry my board and rig onto shore. 2. Walk
back to the car and get my downhaul tool. 3. Release the mastfoot (removing
the sail from the board). 4. Untie the outhaul, extend the booms, and re-tie
the outhaul. 5. Untie the downhaul, extend the mastbase, and redo the
downhaul. 6. Re-attach the masfoot to the board. If I'm going to do all
that and hope I can get by with too big a sail, why not just rig a whole new
sail that's the correct size to begin with. Of course the ideal situation is
if you can rig a new sail without de-rigging your current sail (assuming you
have extra booms, mast, mastbase). That way if the wind is playing games,
you can switch to the appropriate rig in a snap. Steve > > > >This was a
big revelation to me this last season with new "wide range" sails - > >that I
could switch fins when overpowered instead of rigging down the sail > >size.
-----== Posted via Deja News, The Leader in Internet Discussion ==-----
http://www.dejanews.com/ Now offering spam-free web-based newsreading
TomBuckOb2
Steve Wrote:
Um, I'm afraid I don't follow your thinking. You're talking like rigging the
correct size sail is something to be avoided at all costs. What's the big
deal?
Lets see...instead of rigging the correct size sail I'm going to save a
lot of time and effort by:
1. Carry my board and rig onto shore.
2. Walk back to the car and get my downhaul tool.
3. Release the mastfoot (removing the sail from the board).
4. Untie the outhaul, extend the booms, and re-tie the outhaul.
5. Untie the downhaul, extend the mastbase, and redo the downhaul.
6. Re-attach the masfoot to the board.
If I'm going to do all that and hope I can get by with too big a sail, why not
just rig a whole new sail that's the correct size to begin with. <snip>
Steve:
When I move a sail from one board to another I just pop it off the old board
and pop it on the new one. My boards are within 25 yards of the H2O so it is
no big deal. What was all that about the outhaul and downhaul?? (Steps 1 - 6)
MTVNewsGuy
sfoy wrote:
<<Lets see...instead of rigging the correct size sail I'm going to save a
lot of
time and effort by:
1. Carry my board and rig onto shore.
2. Walk
back to the car and get my downhaul tool.
3. Release the mastfoot (removing
the sail from the board).
4. Untie the outhaul, extend the booms, and re-tie
the outhaul.
5. Untie the downhaul, extend the mastbase, and redo the
downhaul.
6. Re-attach the masfoot to the board.>>
I'd say that saves a lot of time. We can type out a list of what is required
to unrig one sail and rig another, and it will be much longer. If the sail can
be tuned to handle the wind nicely, I'd rather do that than derig and rerig.
-Michael
US5613
Ellen Faller
I would much rather save my energy for sailing and not waste it on
rigging just to be rigged correctly for a short time. Switching fins,
and if necessary, boards are way simpler, not to mention adding or
letting off a little downhaul when needed.
First of all, one does not deliberately rig an inappropriate sail, and
then waste time trying to make it work by playing gear games. One rigs
for the conditions at rig time. But conditions often change, and some of
us sail in very changeable conditions. If the wind picks up, I find it
far simpler to walk/run back to the van and switch fins than to rig a
whole new sail, by which time the wind may have changed again.
Adding or letting off some downhaul is done quite simply and I don't
have to make any changes to the mast base, but yes, I do have to take it
off the board. We are talking some mm of downhaul which amounts to some
cm of line, not inches on the mast base. I keep a simple downhaul tool
in my harness. If I rerigged, I have to take it off also! Likewise, I
rarely have to change the outhaul very much, or adjust the boom.
As for changing the board, for me that has often added tremendous
mileage to that same sail as the conditions change. At the most it means
taking board #1 back to car, getting out board #2, insert fin, go
sailing. Better yet, leave board #1 and first fin on beach and sail
board #2. Wind changes, easy swap again. By now, using this other
method, I'd be pooped and would have missed all the wind that I was
frantically rerigging for.
I don't quite understand the thought process outlined by the writer
below. Perhaps he enjoys the process of rigging. If so, he could
probably make a fortune at our beach offering his services as a rigger!
I would rather sail than rig personally.
Ellen
sf...@fhm.healthplan.com wrote:
> Um, I'm afraid I don't follow your thinking. You're talking like rigging the correct size sail is something to be avoided at all costs. What's the big deal?
> Lets see...instead of rigging the correct size sail I'm going to save a
> lot of time and effort by:
> 1. Carry my board and rig onto shore.
> 2. Walk back to the car and get my downhaul tool.
> 3. Release the mastfoot (removing the sail from the board).
> 4. Untie the outhaul, extend the booms, and re-tie the outhaul.
> 5. Untie the downhaul, extend the mastbase, and redo the
> downhaul.
> 6. Re-attach the masfoot to the board.
>
> If I'm going to do all
> that and hope I can get by with too big a sail, why not
> just rig a whole new
Clive Reynish
I have 288 explosion and find it more fun but not that more difficult to
sail.
I sure would think about the choice of 288
Hookipa1 wrote in message <19980302015...@ladder02.news.aol.com>...
sailquik (Roger Jackson)
On Fri, 06 Mar 1998 09:31:14 -0600, sf...@fhm.healthplan.com wrote:
>Um, I'm afraid I don't follow your thinking. You're talking like rigging the
>correct size sail is something to be avoided at all costs. What's the big
>deal?
Steve:
You may have missed the point here. No one ever said to rig the "wrong"
size sail.
The point being made is that the newer sails, with built in pretwist, can
cover a far more extensive range of conditions. Add a little downhaul,
slack the outhaul a bit, and you may not need to change sails unless the
wind is above 15 knots, and it doubles.
A modern 6.5-7.5 race sail will be efective in 12-25 mph. I now sail a 7.5
or 7.0 in 15-20 mph. 2 years ago I sailed a 5.5-6.5 in this same wind
range. About 4 years ago, I was getting my butt kicked in 20 + on anything
bigger than a 5.0. The new sails have a whole lot more range than fins and
boards, so It's easier to tune the sail a bit, and simply change fins or
change boards. Witht he newer sails I find myself underpowered or
overpowered a whole lot less!!!
But I do have one question for you?
Why do you release the outhaul to adjust your boom. How much outhaul
tension are you using? I can usually move my booms to the next longer hole
without even releasing the outhaul at all, but in order prevent too much
positive outhaul, i will usually pull the boom out and then slack the
outhaul slightly to determine where neutral is and then adjust it to 2 cm
negative or positive.
With the new Retro's which require about 5 cm of positive outhaul to get
the correct shape, I am just now adjusting my rigging technique. On my
North Races sails, 2-3 cm of negative was what made them work best.
later
> >This was a
>big revelation to me this last season with new "wide range" sails -
> >that I
>could switch fins when overpowered instead of rigging down the sail
> >size.
>I even switch fins, then switch boards before re-rigging the sail.
> >
>
>-----== Posted via Deja News, The Leader in Internet Discussion ==-----
>http://www.dejanews.com/ Now offering spam-free web-based newsreading
sailquik (Roger Jackson) |Ph # in Md. (301) 872-9459
Lvl 1 WS Instructor | in N.C. (919) 995-3204
F2/North Sails/Rigs/True Ames/ Rainbow
NLW TFW NM
It's not just the "new, wide-range sails"; it worked fine on my RAFs in the
last decade, too. It's just hydrodynamics: higher winds => greater board speeds
=> maybe too much hydrodynamic lift from the fin => need to regain control =>
less sail or less fin or less board. Because the fin's main purpose is to
oppose the sail's aerodynamic drag [the fin counteracts the wind's downwind
push on the sail (and rider)], we can use smaller fins (in area) these days
because today's racier sails have less drag to counteract. (I'm thinking out
loud here; if any real experts can straighten out my logic, jump in).
Re:"They're just making flat sails with no low end grunt."
Right, and that flatness generates less drag, allowing smaller fins for a given
amount of wind and sail area.
I usually switch boards before switching fins. It's quicker, and I prefer to
use the smallest board conditions will support. Then if the wind reverts to its
previous speed, I'm back on the other board in 30 seconds.
I often change outhaul tension on the water, too, if the wind edges up or down
and stays there or if I've just done an upwinder in preparation for a
downwinder. It takes only a minute to tighten or loosen the outhaul lying in
the water.
I seldom bother to change downhaul tension, even though I can do it at the
water's edge without a rigging tool. I'd just have to change it back again when
the wind changes back, so if a little outhaul adj or a smaller board doesn't
fix the problem, it's quicker overall to rig another sail. That way I have the
right rig handy on shore as the wind builds all day and backs off in the
evening, so I waste only part of a minute switching between rigged sails. Once
I rig a sail it stays rigged until I drive away, and rigging my RAFs takes only
2 or 3 minutes. We do have the advantage that piling gear on the shore is
usually safe.
I also have a rule that has saveed me from unnecessary rerigging MANY times and
helped ensure I never waste good sailing time eating: I always eat when the
wind tells me to rerig. If the new wind speed still insists after I've eaten
that I rerig, I'll do it. MANY times the wind gives up on its bluff while I'm
eating and the same sail that I came in on is right again. Rerig averted!
Mike \m/
Never Leave Wind To Find Wind
Sailut
NLW TFW NM wrote:
> I also have a rule that has saveed me from unnecessary rerigging MANY times and
> helped ensure I never waste good sailing time eating: I always eat when the
> wind tells me to rerig. If the new wind speed still insists after I've eaten
> that I rerig, I'll do it. MANY times the wind gives up on its bluff while I'm
> eating and the same sail that I came in on is right again. Rerig averted!
>
> Mike strikes again! I realized I have done this a few times before but not as a
> rule, I think I will now make this a rule.
>
> At one of our local sailing spots, I remember always rigging two sails a day
> until a few years back, With the new race sails I hardly ever re rig, and
> consider it a great day if I have to rig down a size. (I even think its great if
> it comes up enough to get "slammed" a couple of times) A fin change or even a
> board change can usually go a long way to getting more on water time.
>
> Marty
>
sailquik (Roger Jackson)
Sorry Bob, but Tom didn't write the dialogue you quoted, I did.
>They're just making flat sails with no low end grunt.
And, your analysis here might be true of some of the fastest race sails
North IQ3D, NP VX, Sailworks Synchro and others, but I'm now sailing
something that has more low end grunt, and way more range than the
Pyro/V8/Bravo.
It's called the Retro.
Spent the day at the Canadian Hole in Cape Hatteras.
In the morning I was on an 8.5 Retro Raceboard/305 Thommen/46 cm pointer
fin. No one else was planing at all, but I was in the straps and cooking. I
sailed the 8.5 until the wind got consistenly into the 15-18 range, and I
was stating to get worked.
I then rigged a 7.5 Retro (not the raceboard version, but the higher aspect
slalom version. I put this on a 277 F2 Ride and just ripped until I was
getting worked on it as well. Wind was no very much over 20 most of the
time, other sailors were on 6.2's and one gal was on a 5.2.
You might like to try one of these Retro's to find out the true meaning of
"grunt", coupled with alot of range, and the ability to be sailed quite
overpowered.
Look for a very objective (with real numbers) report to follow.
On, by the way, the Retro is camless!
Regards
Roger
andy campbell
How can you find neutral outhaul? When resistance is felt?
But surely this is subjective? The weight of the sail must confuse the
issue?
With the newer sails there's lots of talk about slight positive or negative
outhaul, but if your neutral position is wrong, so is the whole setting.
Any advice much appreciated
--
___ _ ___ _ _ _
/ _ \ _ _ __| |_ _ / __|__ _ _ __ _ __| |__ ___| | |
| _ | ' \/ _` | || | | (__/ _` | ' \| '_ \ '_ \/ -_) | |
|_| |_|_||_\__,_|\_, | \___\__,_|_|_|_| .__/_.__/\___|_|_|
add.ca...@argonet.co.uk |_|
Stephen Foy
IMHO, people are overstating the range of the "new" sails.
People are talking like flattening out a sail by increasing the
outhaul and downhaul is some new revelation. Sure, flattening a
sail will help if your overpowered, but it sure doesn't beat rigging
the correct size sail. I was trying to point out that the effort required
to flatten out the sail is not that much less than rigging
a new sail. If I'm overpowered and I know that I have the correct
size sail sitting in the car, I'm not going waste time playing around
with the outhaul and downhaul and hope I can get by. I'm just
going to rig the right sail. If you can rig a new sail without derigging
your current sail, you're covered if the wind changes
back. If the wind picks up even more and you're out sailing with
your flattened oversized sail, you're in trouble! If you were on the
correct size sail to begin with, you should be able to make it back
to you're launch site. I contend that adjusting the outhaul and
downhaul should be considered fine tuning the sail and is not a
substitute for rigging up or down a whole (1 meter) sail size.
Steve
Ellen Faller <eleanor...@yale.edu> wrote in article
<350042...@yale.edu>...
> sf...@fhm.healthplan.com wrote:
> > Um, I'm afraid I don't follow your thinking. You're talking like
rigging the correct size sail is something to be avoided at all costs.
What's the big deal?
William Fragakis
In article <6e29od$7...@bgtnsc03.worldnet.att.net>, "Stephen Foy"
<Stev...@worldnet.att.net> wrote:
> to flatten out the sail is not that much less than rigging
> a new sail. If I'm overpowered and I know that I have the correct
> size sail sitting in the car, I'm not going waste time playing around
> with the outhaul and downhaul and hope I can get by. I'm just
> going to rig the right sail.
Let me get this straight... I'm a bit dense. Pulling an extra 2 inches of
outhaul and, say, one inch of downhaul, for example, a mile offshore in
Pamlico Sound (the Outer Banks- Cape Hatteras) is not much easier than...
1) Sailing a mile in
2) Slogging through the windshadow near shore
3) Wading the last 100 yds through the shallows.
4) If I'm fortunate and have enough masts, booms and mast extensions I
skip the unrigging process
5) Re rig
6) Suffer a mental breakdown because I'm sitting on the beach putzing
around while my buds are nailing jibes out there in the now 15-20 mph
wind.
7) Drag my board back through the shallows
8) Slog back to the wind line
9) Enjoy my new sail.
No, not all launches are this arduous to get to but our favorite local
spot can have a nasty windshadow the last 100 yds in and its a real pain
to come in, slogging and falling (did I mention the wind eddies there?
Coming in there makes my Hatteras scenario pleasant in comparison), carry
the rig to the parking lot, re rig, carry new rig to beach ... chachacha.
Yes, sometimes you just have to do it, but I'd really rather take
advantage of the wide range a modern sail has. A meter either side on a
good slalom or race is not out of the question. I've been happy to be on
the water with my 6.2 slalom while everyone else was on 6.8-7.2s and the
same sail when folks were on 5.2-5.0s. I'd rather be sailing than shoving
a sandy mast up a luff sleeve.
No, there is no substitute for rigging the right sail the first time
around but an hour later, the right sail might be .75 of a meter
different.
Regards,
William
Stig Johansen
andy campbell wrote:
>
> How can you find neutral outhaul? When resistance is felt?
> But surely this is subjective? The weight of the sail must confuse the
> issue?
Neutral is when you can hold up your sail (on the beach) and the
boom barely stretches the sail out. Negative outhaul is from the
point that the sails clew starts to wrinkle.
Be aware that if the sail is lying on the beach it will look as
if you have added some outhaul, because of the stretch from
the sail cloths weight.
There are other methods to find neutral outhaul, but these are
the easiest to explain.
(N-16) Arctic Surf Bums:-)
--
///// Stig Johansen | Datavision AS /
//// Senior System Developer | Lagerveien 8 //
/// st...@datavision.no | 4033 Forus ///
// +47 51 81 83 15 | Norway ////
/ http://joyweb.priv.no | http://www.hitec.no /////
sf...@fhm.healthplan.com
In article
<nospamfragakis-...@user-38lcaon.dialup.mindspring.com>,
nospamf...@mindspring.com (William Fragakis) wrote:
> Let me get this straight... I'm a bit dense. Pulling an extra 2 inches of
> outhaul and, say, one inch of downhaul, for example, a mile offshore in
> Pamlico Sound (the Outer Banks- Cape Hatteras) is not much easier than...
>
> 1) Sailing a mile in
> 2) Slogging through the windshadow near shore
> 3) Wading the last 100 yds through the shallows.
> 4) If I'm fortunate and have enough masts, booms and mast extensions I
> skip the unrigging process
> 5) Re rig
> 6) Suffer a mental breakdown because I'm sitting on the beach putzing
> around while my buds are nailing jibes out there in the now 15-20 mph
> wind.
> 7) Drag my board back through the shallows
> 8) Slog back to the wind line
> 9) Enjoy my new sail.
>
I'm amazed that you can apply more downhaul, as you say, a mile offshore.
I would never attempt such a thing unless I was truly desperate and it was
a choice between that and ditching the sail. I assume you detach the sail
from the board in order to do this? I would think this would be a very
dangerous manuever. How do you prevent the board from floating away?
With a good wind combined with the waves, I would be afraid the board
would get carried away faster than I can swim for it. And then what?
No board, holding onto a half submerged sail, a mile from shore?
I'd rather rig the right sail!
Steve
William Fragakis
The beauty of Hatteras is that a mile offshore on the sound side, you are
often still in chest deep water.
Incidentally, when I wrote this, I was making a hypothetical example and
then I remembered that I basically do just this in Oct. '96. I stayed
with a 7.5 while others (bigger and heavier) were sailing 6.5s. Good
thing, too. While we were out there, we decided to do a 2 mile upwinder
to Barton's and back. Yeah, I could have sailed in but I might have
missed the fun. Incidentally when we got there, we learned that the wind
was a steady 18-19 at the shop's wind meter.
Assuming that you aren't comfortable adjusting the rig in deeper water,
and certainly more outhaul can be applied with out the benefits of
Hatteras's forgiving nature, sailing into a shallow, an island or reef
will allow you to adust the rig.
And that is still faster than walking back to the car.
Better sailors than me have said it... trust your sail (properly rigged),
it can perform in a lot more wind than many of us think.
Regards,
William
Nick Kies
>
>How can you find neutral outhaul? When resistance is felt?
>But surely this is subjective? The weight of the sail must confuse the
>issue?
>
>With the newer sails there's lots of talk about slight positive or negative
>outhaul, but if your neutral position is wrong, so is the whole setting.
>
>Any advice much appreciated
Neutral out haul is exactly what it sounds like. Rig your sail (It is
important to get the downhaul right) and outhaul the sail and tension
the battons. Then let the outhaul loose till it sags, now pull the
line till the slack is out of the line. Now it's neutral.
Some sails even like negative outhaul. In this case leave an inch or
two of slack. I have some Waddels that love to be rigged negative.
When you do all this make sure it is how the manufacturer says to rig
your sail. Some sails would never be right unless they have plenty of
positive outhaul.
Bob Jacobson
The original premise of this thread (I think) was that changing fins
(reducing fin size or changing to a swept design) could allow one to
regain board control in overpowered conditions. The symptom of having
too much fin is the tendency of the board to tail walk, or jump every
piece of chop. Our feeling when this happens is that the board is too
big, and we're going way too fast. What is happening is the fin is
exerting more force than we can control ( the fin is probably also
unstable due to changes in angle of attack and rake). In this
situation, flattening out the sail will usually not be sufficient to
regain enough control to sail comfortably. Moving the mastbase forward
would probably do more to help regain control, as it will put more board
in the water, and allow the fin to attain a more vertical angle.
Flattening the sail some will also help, but there is the danger that
the draft will move back too far, and unbalance the pull on the harness
lines, requiring a harness line adjustment, also. Usually you end up
sailing in an uncomfortable position, and sailing slower than people
using smaller sails. Finally, making all those adjustments on the water
can take more time than sailing back in and changing the fin, as it
usually takes a couple of tries to get things sorted out.
Having read what I just wrote, it occurrs to me that I have made an
assumption that we're talking about an increase in the average wind
speed. If the problem is gusts, then more downhaul may be more usefull.
I generally put a lot of downhaual on my sails as a matter of course,
and more if it looks gusty.
Also, I guess I was thinking more of overpowered 5.5 conditions, rather
than overpowered 7.5. Most likely the boardspeeds attained with a 7.5,
and lack of chop, will probably not result in fin stability, or board
control problems. The problem there will probably be dealing with the
heeling effort of the sail, which can be reduced depowering(more
outhaul), and moving the center of effort down (more downhaul).
Hmmm...... I guess what and how we sail is really dependent on our local
wind and water conditons, and accessibility of launch site, as well.
Bob Jacobson
TomBuckOb2
Bob Wrote:
<Also, I guess I was thinking more of overpowered 5.5 conditions, rather than
overpowered 7.5. Most likely the boardspeeds attained with a7.5, and lack of
chop, will probably not result in fin stability, or board control problems. The
problem there will probably be dealing with the heeling effort of the sail,
which can be reduced depowering(more outhaul), and moving the center of effort
down (more downhaul).>
Bob:
I started the thread, and it was specifically with my 7.3 M sail in mind. I
stay on my AHD 297 until the board is coming out of the water, then move the
sail to my 275 with a 33 cm fin and then I put a smaller fin on it before
re-rigging the sail.
andy campbell
In article <3506bf72...@news.concentric.net>,
monk...@delete.concentric.net (Nick Kies) wrote:
>
> On Mon, 09 Mar 1998 23:22:28 GMT, andy campbell
> <add.ca...@argonet.co.uk> wrote:
>
> >
> >How can you find neutral outhaul? When resistance is felt?
> >But surely this is subjective?
> >
>
> important to get the downhaul right) and outhaul the sail and tension
> the battons. Then let the outhaul loose till it sags, now pull the
> line till the slack is out of the line. Now it's neutral.
>
line tight prematurely?
Secondly, is there any merit in pressing the sail down against the boom? I
tend to do this & provided the sail, with reasonable pressure, doesn't touch
further than the clamp (on my MK boom) I wondered if this was close?
When I set what I think to be slight negative outhaul, I can press the sail
down on the boom so that it touches quite a way alomg it towards the mast. I
feel that this is too much therefore.
What do others think?
NLW TFW NM
Don't sweat the sail weight. You're trying to get too scientific. Just do what
seems right, experiment a bit, and you'll quickly find out what works best. Try
htis for quick results:
1. Rig with lots of downhaul.
2. Rig the outhaul tight and go sailing.
3. Drop into the water and loosen the outhaul line a cm. Just slack it off --
no need to adjust the boom length for this purpose.
4. If that feels better, go back to step 3. If that felt worse, go to step 5.
5. Tighten the outhaul back to where it felt best.
6. Go to shore. Set boom length to match the best outhaul tension position with
no slack in the outhaul line. Mark the boom setting, and FEEL the tension to
define what the right tension feels like.
7. Change the downhaul tension, try to duplicate the "right" outhaul tension,
and return to step 3.
In an hour you'll have it all dialed in.
sailquik (Roger Jackson)
>>How can you find neutral outhaul?
I like Nick's version quite well, but I define it a little differently, but
I think Nick and I would arrive at almost precisely the same amount of
outhaul, only using slightly different methods.
I define "neutral outhaul" as the pressure you can exert on the outhaul
line, with a normal 2:1 purchase with the outhaul line between your thumb
and forefinger. Even folks with "gorilla" fingers can only grip a 4mm line
between the thumb and forefinger before the line "sinks" into the flesh and
slips. This also happens to be about the same time that the line comes up
straight as in Nick's method. This is done with the mast head and boom
laying on the ground with the sail fully downhauled.
I would disagree with 1-2" of negative outhaul, but if it works for Nick,
on his sails, it's cool.
I like to run the boom about 1" longer than where neutral outhaul would
bring the clew of the sail tight against the boom end. The I slack the
outhaul about 1-3 cm (3/8" -1 1/8"). This seems to allow the clew to move
up and down a bit which helps the head twist off in gusts.
But different sials require different amounts of outhaul to really work
well.
My North IQ3D's like 1-3 cm negative, even when overpowered (especially
when overpowered). I could maybe get a little more top end out of them by
outhauling 1-3 cm positive, but since I'm small I need them to twist off
for control alot more than I need higher top speed.
The Sailworks Retro (Camless) sails I have require about 5 cm of positive
outhaul as a minimum. They tune best in the range between 5cm-10cm
positive as they are "perimeter loaded" by design, and loose outhauls do
not load the perimeter. Sailworks suggests an adjustable outhaul for the
Retro, and my testing has completely supported this suggestion.
Slack it to about neutral for offwind sailing or max low wind "grunt".
Trim to 5cm positive for good bottom end and mid range power.
Trim to 10 cm positive for the best top end, and ability to handle gusty
overpowered conditions.
Being able to do this "on the fly" makes the Retro very easy to handle,
with great low end power, and very high top speeds.
> When resistance is felt?
Pull it out straight, or to where it slips between your thumb and
forefinger, and then measure it with a spring scale like the fisherman use.
Do thsi several times and I'd expect you will come up with an average
number of ounce/grams so you can duplicate "neutral" with the scale on a
repetitive basis.
>>But surely this is subjective? The weight of the sail must confuse the
>>issue?
Not really, as a properly downhauled, modern race or slalom sail will have
some of (if not most of the ) the batten ends resting on the ground when
you finally adjust the outhaul.
>>
>>With the newer sails there's lots of talk about slight positive or negative
>>outhaul, but if your neutral position is wrong, so is the whole setting.
True, but this is why you go out and sail, and then make a little "outhaul
adjustment", sail some more, adjust again, until the sail really feels
sweet for the conditions. Then you can mark things, or measure them and
write them down before you derig. Next time the conditions are about the
same, set the sail where it was "sweet" before, and it more than likely
will be almost as sweet, right off the beach. Then try to make it sweeter!
I do have to say that several of the sailmakers have really done their
homework on tuning tips.
My North's with the Visual Trim System (VTS) and my Sailworks
Retro's, both slalom (high aspect) and Raceboard (lower aspect)
are very nearly as sweet as I can get them, just by rigging them according
to the manufacturer's suggested rigging parameters.
Use these first, no matter WHAT your local "rigging experts" tell you.
Oh, yeah, and it really is important to use either the exact mast
recommended by the manufacturer, or one from another mast maker with the
same length and bend ratio characteristics.
Sails are designed to work with the mast the designer feels
will work best, and are tested on these masts. Using some other mast
compromises the design.
MTVNewsGuy
Variety is the spice of life...
I have great success getting the outhaul right by focusing on the downhaul.
(If your sail is making a lot of boom contact, and you've got the correct mast,
I'd say you need more downhaul).
Once I'm happy with the downhaul (how loose is my luff etc) for the conditions,
I set the boom so that it's almost touching the back of the sail, tie the
outhaul off, and go out for a few runs. Once everythings been sailed for five
minutes (and the sail has been dunked in the water) I get back on the beach,
check the downhaul again, and set the outhaul again.
As far as precise tension (if you want to worry about it) for neutral outhaul,
you'll notice that you can put some pressure on the line without moving the
clew. In my mind, if there's a little tension on the line, that should mean
that there's no slack...slack equaling negative outhaul.
-Michael
US5613
William Fragakis
Bob,
Sorry if I deviated too much from the original thread but I was responding
to the premise that if your entire rig (board and sail) are "overpowered"
that the simple solution is to go back to the car and start over.
Like Tom and probably you, I, too, use several fins per board. On my big
slalom I run several between a 48 and 35cm. What I use depends on wind
speed, sail size and water conditions.
EG. If I'm underpowered, sometimes I'll grab a bigger fin instead of
rerigging as the hard part for me (and I'm a reasonably good pumper) is
getting the board on the plane not keeping it on a plane. A bigger fin
will help and two screws are easier to turn than sliding a mast up a
sleeve, etc. For me, anyway.
If we find our foils, both above and below the water, too powerful, we can
either change their characteristics (tuning a sail) or change them (fin or
sail or adjusting daggerboard position). As the sail is the most time
consuming for me to change or replace, I prefer reasonable options that
are less time consuming yet give up little in terms of enjoyment on the
water. They may not always be the optimal solution in terms of the
perfect rig but optimally I'd rather be on the water than on the beach
messing around with equipment. IMHO, anyway.
Regards,
William
In article <19980311201...@ladder03.news.aol.com>,
Bob Jacobson
William,
Geez, another little point of disagreement - big fins for easier
planing. Unless your fin is so small that your board has severe
sideslip, or spins out very easily, going up in finsize won't help you
pump up on a plane. When you pump, most of the force is directed forward
(that is, in the direction the board is pointing) because of the angle
of the wind, and the fact that the board should be pointed off the wind.
In these circumstances there is little sideforce on the fin. If you pump
the board on a plane and the tail of the board slides out, you do need a
larger fin. Or if you just can't point. Otherwise, you're wasting your
time going back to shore for a larger fin.
MTVNewsGuy
Bob Jacobson wrote: <If you pump
the board on a plane and the tail of the board slides out, you do need a
larger fin. Or if you just can't point. Otherwise, you're wasting your
time going back to shore for a larger fin.>
That's not my experience at all. I've got two fins for my lightwind board (123
liters)...14" and 15.5" blades...I don't pump, and the board takes off with the
larger fin and a 7.5, but the wind has got to be screaming to get up on the
smaller fin.
-Michael
US5613
NLW TFW NM
Re:<<If I'm underpowered, sometimes I'll grab a bigger fin instead of rerigging
..... as the hard part for me is getting the board on the plane not keeping it
on a plane>>
William --
I think the first part of your sentence explains the latter part. A bigger sail
is the more effective route to planing. The fin doesn't PROVIDE power; it
merely generates lift in reponse to the speed provided by the SAIL's power.
Bigger sail => more power into the whole system => more planing time + greater
speed => greater fin lift => greater upwind capability.
Yes, adding a bigger fin promotes earlier planing IF traction (lift) is lacking
due to too small a fin. But once the fin is big enough, the shortage becomes
power, not traction. i.e., Once the fin is big enough to generate enough lift
to control sideways drift, we still need more forward force to overcome the
board and fin's hydrodynamic drag to break onto a plane. That forward force
comes from square meters (and, of course, sail design, especially draft depth
and boom length). We ain't gonns plane with a 5.0 in 10 mph winds even with a
10-square-foot fin.
It's like selecting engine and tires for a drag race car. As long as the engine
can spin the tires into oblivion, bigger tires (or better ones) will help. But
once the tires are good enough or big enough to control wheelspin, let's face
it -- it's time for a bigger engine.
Lets' face it -- if planing is a consistent bugaboo, the solution is more
power, not more lateral resistance. If the biggest sail we're willing to rig or
sail or buy is still not enough, it's time for an even bigger fin, an earlier
planing board, or another sport.
Peter Somlo
Bob Jacobson <sto...@ameritech.net> wrote:
>William,
>
>Geez, another little point of disagreement - big fins for easier
>planing. Unless your fin is so small that your board has severe
>sideslip, or spins out very easily, going up in finsize won't help you
>pump up on a plane. When you pump, most of the force is directed forward
>(that is, in the direction the board is pointing) because of the angle
>of the wind, and the fact that the board should be pointed off the wind.
>In these circumstances there is little sideforce on the fin. If you pump
>the board on a plane and the tail of the board slides out, you do need a
>larger fin. Or if you just can't point. Otherwise, you're wasting your
>time going back to shore for a larger fin.
>
I'll second the above.
Peter
_____________________________________________________________________
Dr.Peter I Somlo FIEEE | M1: "Every coin has 3 sides - at least"
Microwave Consultant | M2: "The wind ain't gonna blow from where it
tel/fax: 61-2-9451-2478| ought'a, it'l blow from where it can"
Mobile(AU):041-926-3168| WWW:<http://www.zeta.org.au/~somlo>
Peter Somlo
Well said Mike. I have a nasty suspicion that some confusion is caused
by the word 'lift' when talking about fins. I have spoken to a number
of windsurfers who understood fin-generated-lift as being lift out of
the water; whereas all the fin does (ideally) to provide infinite
sideral resistance with zero axial resistance.
When is a board planing depends on (primarily) on the board's "hull
speed limit". When there is enough thrust to overcome this limit, the
board is planing.
Anyway, that's my 5c. worth.
MTVNewsGuy
There are a group of posts here saying that rigging a larger fin than a given
one does not lead to earlier planing, once the fin is large enough to prevent
drift. I assume those of you who've posted this believe the converse is true.
Yet there are those of us who are very successful in trimming boards for wind
speed by using varying sizes of fins for the same given sail. I'm wondering if
this is less a phenomena for bump sailors than slalom. It's an observable fact
in my neck of the woods...finning up and down to dial in a board, and
absolutely to promote early planing in lighter winds. I'm talking about slalom
sailing 6.0-7.5 most of the time, but I probably rig two different fins for
each of my sails depending on conditions, down to 3.5.
There's enough lift, too much lift, and not enough lift if you're sailing blade
fins. I can go back and fourth between 3 different sized fins for the same
sail and plane on all and go upwind on all, yet unless the sail is really
powered up, I'll get planing faster on the largest (and if the sail is really
powered up I'll be fighting railing all day with too large a fin.)
And Peter Somlo...you should check out the old string on "riding the fin" when
the discussion was precisely about the fin lifting the board up and out of the
water (I had taken your side...but some people were talking about angling the
board to have the fin lift the board's tail above the water's surface...an
extreme example.)
-Michael
US5613
JohnMic
Assuming you've set up the correct amount of downhaul.
After you've rigged the sail and set what you THINK is neutral
outhaul stand the sail up and jibe it a few times at the rigging spot.
So that all the cams rotate a few times.
Now with the sail fully rotated to one side and cams all popped hold the
sail parallel to the wind (theres no pressure acting on the sail) and check
out the clew.
At neutral outhaul the clew patch is neither creased (negative outhaul)
nor under tension from the outhaul rope (positive).
Somewhere between the two.
Adjust the outhaul and repeat the above until you are satisfied.
Since this procedure is done with the sail standing upright the weight of
the sail is eliminated.
Anyway it works for me.
JohnM
Ian Knight
I agree with William. A larger fin definitely helps you plane in
marginal conditions. Ideally you should up both fin and sail size
together but if the bigger fin is you're only or easiest option it is
well worthwhile. I go to a 355 fin on my largest sail 6.0. I get the
impression it stays on the plane better also, but if the wind picks up
to genuine 6.0 strength the smaller properly matched fin is the go.
I figure that although the smaller fin may not have lost traction at
sub-planing speed it must operate at a high angle of attack to generate
enough force, along with the leeward rail, to balance the sail.
A large fin can balance the force or this same sail at a lower angle of
attack which I suspect is more efficient in terms of lift to drag and
allows you to get through the planing barrier.
Ian
sailquik (Roger Jackson)
>Variety is the spice of life...
I'll say!!
>
>I have great success getting the outhaul right by focusing on the downhaul.
>(If your sail is making a lot of boom contact, and you've got the correct mast,
>I'd say you need more downhaul).
Boom contact, on the beach or rigging area??? Hmmmm? What's wrong with this
picture?
>
>Once I'm happy with the downhaul (how loose is my luff etc) for the conditions,
Loose luff???? What kind of sails do you use. The luff needs to be quite
tight, unless you are trying to deepen the draft to make a small sail act
like a larger one.
Except for my Retro and wave sails, the luffs on all my sails will
"thunk"like a drum if you flick them with your finger. The leech, however,
is completely floppy and loose.
>I set the boom so that it's almost touching the back of the sail, tie the
>outhaul off, and go out for a few runs. Once everythings been sailed for five
>minutes (and the sail has been dunked in the water) I get back on the beach,
>check the downhaul again, and set the outhaul again.
This sounds about right, except for the part about the boom almost touching
the sail. Have you ever tried it with the same outhaul tension (or lack of)
with the boom set at the next notch (adj. hole, etc) longer?
Makes a huge difference i my race sails!
Also, nearly all modern sails do most of their "stretchhing" in the first
day or so that you sial them, so getting them wet should make no difference
as long as the initial "stretch/break in " period has occured.
I've heard that the North World Cup team riders leave all their new sails
rigged overnite if at all possible to allow them to stretch out, before
they put the final rigging tweaks into them. Otherwise they have found that
in the first hour or two of sailing, the sails stretch and change enough to
diminish the performance. After that, the just rig them and sail them..
>
>As far as precise tension (if you want to worry about it) for neutral outhaul,
>you'll notice that you can put some pressure on the line without moving the
>clew. In my mind, if there's a little tension on the line, that should mean
>that there's no slack...slack equaling negative outhaul.
I agree!
MTVNewsGuy
Roger wrote:
<Loose luff???? What kind of sails do you use. The luff needs to be quite
tight, unless you are trying to deepen the draft to make a small sail act
like a larger one>
It's not that I use unusual sails, it's that I used the wrong term. I meant
LEACH. Floppy leach and soforth.
A big oops on my part!
-Michael
US5613.
William Fragakis
In article <35081D01...@ameritech.net>, Bob Jacobson
<sto...@ameritech.net> wrote:
> William,
>
> Geez, another little point of disagreement - big fins for easier
> planing. Unless your fin is so small that your board has severe
> sideslip, or spins out very easily, going up in finsize won't help you
> pump up on a plane. When you pump, most of the force is directed forward
> (that is, in the direction the board is pointing) because of the angle
> of the wind, and the fact that the board should be pointed off the wind.
> In these circumstances there is little sideforce on the fin. If you pump
> the board on a plane and the tail of the board slides out, you do need a
> larger fin. Or if you just can't point. Otherwise, you're wasting your
> time going back to shore for a larger fin.
Bob and Mike,
Whether you contend that a fin generates lift or prevents lateral sideslip
(I vote that lift proper term, otherwise keelboats would have kept those
long keels and never gone to modern high aspect foils) , I firmly believe
that bigger fins help in marginal conditions. And whether its blowing 10
or 18, marginal is whether the conditions are enough for the
board/rig/sail combination.
1) The rig is an assemblage of components: board, sail and fin (and
windsurfer's gut but we can't do much about that in a single sailing
session). By changing any one of these variables, we change the effective
wind range of the combination. Put an 8.5m on a 295 board with a 10" B &
J fin and see how much wind it takes to plane. I guarantee you that I'll
plane earlier on my 282 with a 7.5 and a 17" (44cm) fin. This goes to the
heart of the thread. A rig can be tuned by more than running in an
grabbing a different sail.
To alter Mike's analogy somewhat, it's less like a dragster but a race car
that must corner (NASCAR is my local variant). Tires, tire pressure,
springs and suspension setup all determine how a car handles. The
windsurfer is similarly complex. A number of different combination of the
variables can give you a workable solution- ie a rig that you are
comfortable with.
2) The fin that generates enough lift at 15-16 mph (a slow plane) may not
generate enough lift a 12 mph (say, your planing threshold). So it is
difficult to judge by spin/slip out at planing speed whether the fin is
big enough at a lower speed.
3) Pumping is more than just yanking on the sail. The fin, too, can be
pumped. Underwater surfaces can be very effectively pumped, witness
downwind board/hull movements in IMCO's, Lasers, et al. As you begin
pumping, you are very forcefully pushing against that fin. It better be
big enough at 8 mph for us to even discuss whether its going to slip a bit
at 15
4) IMHO, in very marginal conditions, the most effective angle of sail is
a reach not a broad reach. The apparent wind does not accelerate enough
on a broad reach to power the board.
5) At the last stages of pumping, the force is directed more sideways.
You begin with the sail trimmed out and on subsequent pumps, bring the
sail more close hauled until finally you are trimmed in. At this critical
juncture, more underwater lift/resistance helps.
6) A bigger fin lowers the speed required for me to plane. If I'm
slipping at all in an under powered plane (and you slip a lot more than
you think), any increase in the efficiency of the underwater foils will
keep me from effectively drifting with the wind which increases the
apparent wind ever so slightly.
7) Scenario: I am marginally rigged on my 6.2, while I could be fully
powered on my 7.5. I have a half hour left in the session before the
babysitter turns into a pumpkin. Do I go back to shore and rig a new sail
or do I go from the 38 to the 42 cm fin? The bigger fin, everytime. And
this goes back to the origin of the thread. Ideally, we'd be on the right
stuff everytime, but life isn't that way...
With my best regards and too bad we couldn't do this over a beer together :-),
William
Craig gsogh Goudie
In article <35084a8...@news.zeta.org.au>,
so...@zeta.org.au (Peter Somlo) wrote:
>
> Bob Jacobson <sto...@ameritech.net> wrote:
>
> >William,
> >
> >Geez, another little point of disagreement - big fins for easier
> >planing. Unless your fin is so small that your board has severe
> >sideslip, or spins out very easily, going up in finsize won't help you
> >pump up on a plane. When you pump, most of the force is directed forward
> >(that is, in the direction the board is pointing) because of the angle
> >of the wind, and the fact that the board should be pointed off the wind.
> >In these circumstances there is little sideforce on the fin. If you pump
> >the board on a plane and the tail of the board slides out, you do need a
> >larger fin. Or if you just can't point. Otherwise, you're wasting your
> >time going back to shore for a larger fin.
> >
> Peter
> __
Nope, there's more to it than that. Some people also pump the board
while pumping the sail (you skateboarders out there know how this works).
A bigger skeg provides more lateral resistance to pump against allowing
a much longer stronger stroke. Getcha on a plane faster every time.
.02
Craig (Go Short or Go Home!) Goudie
Sailing the high desert lakes of Utah on my:
Star 288, Gem 8'10" and Cobra 8'4" with
Naish Sails and Meritex Fins
___________________________________________________________________
> Dr.Peter I Somlo FIEEE | M1: "Every coin has 3 sides - at least"
> Microwave Consultant | M2: "The wind ain't gonna blow from where it
> tel/fax: 61-2-9451-2478| ought'a, it'l blow from where it can"
> Mobile(AU):041-926-3168| WWW:<http://www.zeta.org.au/~somlo>
>
Nick Kies
>Thanks for the info, but what about the weight of the sail stretching the
>line tight prematurely?
You can tell when this is happening by watching your sail. When you
wrinkles near the clew pull them out. This isn't rocket science so you
only need to be within an inch of neutral.
>
>Secondly, is there any merit in pressing the sail down against the boom? I
>tend to do this & provided the sail, with reasonable pressure, doesn't touch
>further than the clamp (on my MK boom) I wondered if this was close?
Not for rigging and adjustment purposes. It is a handy way to gauge if
you have your sail in the same place you liked it last time. Course
that means you need to have checked it out before.
>When I set what I think to be slight negative outhaul, I can press the sail
>down on the boom so that it touches quite a way alomg it towards the mast. I
>feel that this is too much therefore.
Maybe you have a downhaul adjustment problem.
That's right, negative outhaul gives you a nice full sail. There is
one thing you can do though to check your full sail out. Pull you
outhaul to neutral or slightly further. Now go to your downhaul and
loosen and pull it while watching your sails luff up the edge of the
mast. With the downhaul on the loose side pull. As you pull the curve
in the luff should get closer to the mast. Then when you are going too
far the luff will start to flatten out. Adjust you sail so the ful
luff is as close to your mast as you can before it flattens. It is
nice to have a friend do the adjusting as you look from the top of the
mast, but you can do it alone.
Now go back and adjust you outhaul with you battens fully tensioned.
YOu may not like the feel of a properly rigged sail if you have been
sailing with your sails too flat or full (more likely too flat, too
much downhaul and/or outhaul). The sail will have a tendency to cause
you to head up into the wind if your not used to it. Learn to like it
and adjust your sailing style. When you change the luff curve you have
to change your harness lines to corrospond.
Bob Jacobson
Yeah william, too small afin won't work. But the premise was that you
were out sailing successfully on the fin, then the wind dropped, so you
sailed back in to go up in fin size, instead of sail size. Which means
there should be enough fin there when you get up to marginal planing
speed.I think good pumping technique requires that you don't oversheet,
and put too much pressure on the fin. After all, that sideforce is not
propelling you forward.
As to beam reach being better than broad reach for getting on a plane in
light winds, I don't agree. I've watched a lot of racer-boys (Mike Z.,
Berkely Bob, etc.) leave the Berkely Marina on light air gear. They
always head down until they're planing, pick up speed until the fin
hooks up, then head up wind like a rocket. I think at a broad reach the
apparent wind is lower, but there is also much less side force for the
fin to work against, which means the fin can act act at a lower angle
of attack, with less drag.
Discussing this over a beer would be great, especially if were after a
session on the water where we coull put these concepts to the test.
Better yet, on a 25mph day when we didn't have the opportunity.
Bob Jacobson
William Fragakis wrote:
> In article <35081D01...@ameritech.net>, Bob Jacobson
> <sto...@ameritech.net> wrote:
>
> > William,
> >
> > Geez, another little point of disagreement - big fins for easier
> > planing. Unless your fin is so small that your board has severe
> > sideslip, or spins out very easily, going up in finsize won't help
> you
> > pump up on a plane. When you pump, most of the force is directed
> forward
> > (that is, in the direction the board is pointing) because of the
> angle
> > of the wind, and the fact that the board should be pointed off the
> wind.
> > In these circumstances there is little sideforce on the fin. If you
> pump
> > the board on a plane and the tail of the board slides out, you do
> need a
> > larger fin. Or if you just can't point. Otherwise, you're wasting
> your
> > time going back to shore for a larger fin.
>
NLW TFW NM
One of the quickest ways to induce a plane is to bear off, then pump sail and
fin while tilted downhill on whatever chop/swell's available. Get planing, pick
up speed (and thus fin lift), then bootstrap your way to apparent wind and more
speed. But then there's that next lull that starts the whole sequence again.
Naaah -- unless I'm already on my big sail, it's sail time. That's just one of
the 13.2 reasons I use RAFs: re-rigging takes less time than bootstrapping onto
plane a few times, only a 100 seconds more than changing fins, and there's
nothing like having reserve power when the wind backs off ANOTHER notch. In
fact, if I rerig in the evening as the wind backs off, I usually skip a size
and sail overpowered for a while, 'cause I KNOW it's gonna back off another
notch. OTOH, if I got there early enough that morning my bigger sail's probably
already (still) rigged and ready.
sailquik (Roger Jackson)
>You can tell when this is happening by watching your sail. When you
>wrinkles near the clew pull them out. This isn't rocket science so you
>only need to be within an inch of neutral.
Nick, I find this very interesting, as on my sails, an inch positve or
negative is the entire adjustment range. These are race sails, are you
rigging something different??
>>Secondly, is there any merit in pressing the sail down against the boom? I
>>tend to do this & provided the sail, with reasonable pressure, doesn't touch
>>further than the clamp (on my MK boom) I wondered if this was close?
>
>Not for rigging and adjustment purposes. It is a handy way to gauge if
>you have your sail in the same place you liked it last time. Course
>that means you need to have checked it out before.
I agree with this completely. But on my sails, the best tuning indicators
are the leech ends of the battens. If it's a slalom sail (North
Katana/Pyro) and I want alot of power, I'll downhaul until the top batten
just starts to drop off at the leech end. If I want better speed, less low
end, then I'll downhaul until the top 3 battens have dropped off. If I
figure I'll be overpowered, then I'll downhaul until all the batten above
the boom have dropped.
On Race sails, I tend to go with more of the battens dropped sooner.
Even on my wave sails I use the leech tension (ie how many batten ends
drop) as the prime indicator of how much downhaul I need.
>
>>When I set what I think to be slight negative outhaul, I can press the sail
>>down on the boom so that it touches quite a way alomg it towards the mast. I
>>feel that this is too much therefore.
Not sure what you are trying to achieve by pressing down on the sail. If
you are trying to run negative outhaul, ther will be no tension on the
outhaul line. The batten tension will hold the clew up to some degree, but
a certain curvature will always exist on the clew if you have truly
negative outhaul pressure. Neutral outhaul pressure will straighten the
clew out until the curvature is gone. Giong into the positive outhaul
range, you will see the pocket (draft) being pulled out of the front of the
sail.
>
>That's right, negative outhaul gives you a nice full sail.
True!
> Now go to your downhaul and loosen and pull it while watching your sails luff up the edge of the
>mast. With the downhaul on the loose side pull. As you pull the curve
>in the luff should get closer to the mast. Then when you are going too
>far the luff will start to flatten out. Adjust you sail so the ful
>luff is as close to your mast as you can before it flattens. It is
>nice to have a friend do the adjusting as you look from the top of the
>mast, but you can do it alone.
I guess you can do it this way, but I think the leech is a far better
indicator!
>Now go back and adjust you outhaul with you battens fully tensioned.
By fully tensioned, I hope you mean just until all the vertical wrinkles
are gone above and below the batten pockets. On a new monofilm sail it is
very interesting to watch the wrinkles in the panel just "disappear" at the
same time the vertical wrinkles adjacent to the batten pockets disappear.
snip!
The sail will have a tendency to cause
>you to head up into the wind if your not used to it.
What? Unless the draft in the sail has been artificially moved, buy
improper downhaul or outhaul tension, they I see no reason for the
CE to move enough for it to affect the board heading up or down.
Learn to like it
>and adjust your sailing style. When you change the luff curve you have
>to change your harness lines to corrospond.
I agree!
later
andy campbell
In article <3509ab60...@news.ameritel.net>, sail...@mail.ameritel.net
(sailquik (Roger Jackson)) wrote:
> Learn to like it
> >and adjust your sailing style. When you change the luff curve you have
> >to change your harness lines to corrospond.
> I agree!
Any more info on harness line changes to suit luff curve changes?
Thanks to all for the great feedback in this thread
sailquik (Roger Jackson)
>In article <3509ab60...@news.ameritel.net>, sail...@mail.ameritel.net
>(sailquik (Roger Jackson)) wrote:
>> Learn to like it
>> >and adjust your sailing style. When you change the luff curve you have
>> >to change your harness lines to corrospond.
>> I agree!
>
>Any more info on harness line changes to suit luff curve changes?
Andy:
Anytime you tune your sail enough to move the CE (center of effort)
to anywhere (forward/aft) besides where the sailmaker put it, in his
design, you will need to move/adjust your harness lines to balance around
this new point.
Most often, if you change the outhaul setting alot, you will move the CE,
and the lines may need to be tweaked some to compensate.
I'm not sure I agree completely with tthe idea you can move the CE with the
downhaul, if you stay within the range the designer had in mind, but if you
are outside this range, ie too much, or not enough, or do not use the
proper mast, then I agree.
William Fragakis
Classically, in sailboats, the cunningham (which serves the same purpose
as our downhaul) was used to adjust the CE of the mainsail. As windspeed
increased, the draft (ce) would move back and more cunningham was applied
to move it forward.
For many sails, in my admittedly limited experience, more downhaul helps
stabilize the draft ie prevents it from moving back in a gust or in other
words moves it forward from where it might be otherwise in the gust. It
may be the case with sails with many cams and very stiff battens, that
this is almost unnoticeable.
Regards,
William
Nick Kies
Message below this reply, for reference.
I agree with Roger that an inch of change in the outhaul does have an
impact on new sails. I did say less than an inch in my previous post,
just the same that is a little bit of an overstatement, I admit.
I also have used the falling of at the leech method of adjusting my
sail and this is a very good method. I didn't go that route because I
wasn't sure that it would be consistant with most sails. I guess the
better way to describe downhaul is to say, pull till the top of your
sail falls off to at least your second batten. Pull more if you want
to depower the sail, even till the leach falls off to the boom. I have
sailed a 6 meter sail with loose leech to the boom in extremely up and
down situations to incredible advantage.
To the person who replied that he adjusts his center of effort with
his outhaul. I don't adjust my center of effort. I adjust my sail
flatter or fuller and the center of effort changes when I do this,
and not necessarily where I would want it. I am playing a semantic
game here, but the purpose is to make it clear that you don't for
instance decide to change the center of effort to match your harness
lines. It would work, but you would be making your sail inefficient
for the wrong reason.
I may be mistaken in this, but sometimes I actually rig my sails so
the luff does not drop off at all and set the downhaul for maximum
draft with negative outhaul. I do this in lighter wind conditions
when the sail is not always fully powered (and the water is flattish).
I feel this helps getting the board on plane. But I weigh 205 and
getting the board out of the water is different than for a lighter
sailer. Course this would usually be on my larger sails, cause why put
on a smaller sail if it's not powered.
> Learn to like it
>>and adjust your sailing style. When you change the luff curve you have
>>to change your harness lines to corrospond.
>I agree!
NLW TFW NM
Nick --
While I agree totally in theory with
" sometimes I actually rig my sails so
the luff does not drop off at all and set the downhaul for maximum
draft with negative outhaul. I do this in lighter wind conditions
when the sail is not always fully powered (and the water is flattish)",
it leaves my 6.8 twin-cam slalom sail feeling top-heavy. To kill that dead
feel, I have to downhaul some slack into its leech top. The tiny, if any, loss
of bottom end power is worth the livelier feeling and the better gust response.
I wonder if most larger sails respond this way (requiring some leech slack even
when underpowered), or whether its just some sails that do?
Wolfgang Soergel
Bob Jacobson wrote:
>
> William,
>
> Geez, another little point of disagreement - big fins for easier
> planing. Unless your fin is so small that your board has severe
> sideslip, or spins out very easily, going up in finsize won't help you
> pump up on a plane. When you pump, most of the force is directed forward
> (that is, in the direction the board is pointing) because of the angle
> of the wind, and the fact that the board should be pointed off the wind.
> In these circumstances there is little sideforce on the fin. If you pump
> the board on a plane and the tail of the board slides out, you do need a
> larger fin. Or if you just can't point. Otherwise, you're wasting your
> time going back to shore for a larger fin.
>
which has adequate upwind performance for the conditions.
And you have some point. Fins don't generate any "thrust" but counter
the sailforces. Thus a fin which is just large enough to counter forces
i adequate. But the world isn't perfect. A larger fin can be quite
a bit of help when trying to get a board on a plane, especially if
pumping and NOT going on a broad reach is involved. Most sailors
produce appreciable amounts of sideways thrust when pumping.
So a big fin is a kind of a crutch for lack of "perfect technique"
but it helps.
Does switching fins instead of rerigging make now sense ?
Imho it depends a lot on the sailor, the conditions and the
alternaives available.
Personally when sailing on the lake i ussually hold on to the sail
when the wind increases rigged first untill i can rig 1 m^2 smaller,
the rig another sail, leaving the old one rigged. This is
often accompanied by board change (smaller sail allows smaller board).
Once a sail is too big by 1m^2 (under the premise i already rigged big
to begin with), i feel that a smaller fin doesn't cut it anymore
when there is adequate gear only some minutes away.
If the wind drops on the other hand i find it sometimes beneficial
to switch to a slightly bigger fin, keeping the rig.
In the surf things are a bit different, i mostly found it beneficial
to rig another sail as soon as the one i had was too big / small
for more than 15 minutes. But again: Keep the old sail rigged.
If this isn't possible (need the mast / boom) the fin tuning
or a board change are the next best options.
But nothing beats sailing the gear suited for the conditions and
i don't see much value in overly hisitating to use it if it
sits in the car right on the beach.
Wolfgang
--
Wolfgang Soergel
Lehrstuhl fuer Nachrichtentechnik / phone: ++49-9131-857781
Universitaet Erlangen-Nuernberg / fax: ++49-9131-858849
Cauerstrasse 7 / email:
wsoe...@nt.e-technik.uni-erlangen.de
D-91058 Erlangen, GERMANY /
http://www.nt.e-technik.uni-erlangen.de/~wsoergel
Don Fukushima
Roger,
Which VTS dots are you running on the IQ 3D?
I've been running my between max and med nearly all the time. Again, I run
these sails always fully/overpowered. When I have had to run the biggest in
light conditions, I have run it at the min dot but find if gusts up, the
sail gets hard to hold onto rather quickly.
Don
sailquik (Roger Jackson) wrote in message
<35074891...@news.ameritel.net>...
Nick Kies
On 16 Mar 1998 19:36:11 GMT, nlwt...@aol.com (NLW TFW NM) wrote:
>Nick --
>" sometimes I actually rig my sails so
>the luff does not drop off at all and set the downhaul for maximum
>draft with negative outhaul. I do this in lighter wind conditions
>when the sail is not always fully powered (and the water is flattish)",
>
>it leaves my 6.8 twin-cam slalom sail feeling top-heavy. To kill that dead
>feel, I have to downhaul some slack into its leech top. The tiny, if any, loss
>of bottom end power is worth the livelier feeling and the better gust response.
>I wonder if most larger sails respond this way (requiring some leech slack even
>when underpowered), or whether its just some sails that do?
Whew, that's a big sail, I see what you mean. I usually find myself
rigging full on my 5 meter to 6 meter sails and they are wave, raf,
camber combos.
I have a six meter, 6.5 and a 7 meter in race sails but I haven't
experimented enough with those sails to say what's good because I have
been lucky wind wise. I just have them cause I hate to be skunked, but
I think I will be using them more since I moved south from Portland.
NLW TFW NM
Nick --
I had to smile at your "Whew, that's a big sail" (in reference to my 6.8). I
thought the same way, too, until 1) I got SO tired of driving to the water 185
miles away for a forecast of 30-40-mph, only to see nothing but 15-25 or 15-30
all day -- perfect for a 6.8 slalom sail at a mile high and 2) I sailed modern
6.x sails a few years ago. Just think how your accurate observation sounds to
these deprived souls who own and actually USE 17-foot masts (centimeters don't
even go that high, do they?) with movie-screen-sized sails (13 square
fathoms?).
Re:"I have a six meter, 6.5 and a 7 meter in race sails but I haven't
experimented enough with those sails to say what's good because I have
been lucky wind wise. I just have them cause I hate to be skunked, but
I think I will be using them more since I moved south from Portland"
Man, that IS lucky, considering that a 7-meter race sail is fine at 25 knots at
sea level. Man, yer SPOILT! I've seen many people race on 6.0 and 6.5 race
sails when big B&J sailors were SHREDDING on 3.5s. Sounds like you sail
exclusively in liquid smoke at Rooster Rock!
Bob Jacobson
Mike,
What's the point of sailing 6.0 when you could be sailing 3.5, or 5.0,
for that matter? I like to sail as small a sail as possible. I don't
mind if I have to slog a little. I'm not racing anyone. I guess some
people like Miatas and some people like Vipers. I'm more a Miata guy.
Bob Jacobson
NLW TFW NM
RE:"What's the point of sailing 6.0 when you could be sailing 3.5, or 5.0,
for that matter? I like to sail as small a sail as possible. I don't
mind if I have to slog a little. I'm not racing anyone. I guess some
people like Miatas and some people like Vipers. I'm more a Miata guy."
That was my thought, exactly. I was WAY powered up on my 3.7, and the wind was
consistent enough that I was a mile downwind of my launch site on a total
sinker, yet these guys -- Bruce, Eric, etc. -- were on 6.x sails, doing their
race thing. Of course, 3.7 stuff is common everyweek stuff in da Gorge, but an
official event is not, so I can't fault that at all; Ya race when ya can and
play when ya can't! Also of course were the broken nose and two broken ribs,
but BY GOD they didn't hit no lulls!
It's IMPRESSIVE to see these people handle, even master, 100% too much sail --
consistently! It's a realm of sailing I never CHOOSE -- although it beats
slogging ALL to hell, so I do it occasionally -- and it's why modern sails'
wind ranges are increasing so much. Bruce doesn't sail two and even three extra
meters PURELY for fun. And I'll bet his V-10 Viper can STILL outmaneuver our
Miatas when he's driving.
Craig gsogh Goudie
In article <199803181924...@ladder03.news.aol.com>,
nlwt...@aol.com (NLW TFW NM) wrote:
[why one might rig huge snippage]
> It's a realm of sailing I never CHOOSE -- although it beats
> slogging ALL to hell, so I do it occasionally -- and it's why modern sails'
> wind ranges are increasing so much. Bruce doesn't sail two and even three
extra
> meters PURELY for fun. And I'll bet his V-10 Viper can STILL outmaneuver our
> Miatas when he's driving.
Depends on the course, I betcha a low mass Miata can take a Viper in a tight
slalom course. Torque has it's advantages, so does nimbleness, on the water
I like nimble, on the road though, I wouldn't mind a Viper.
Ohhh I get it, you mean Bruce can kick my ass on what ever equipment he's on.
No argument there!
>
> Mike \m/
> Never Leave Wind To Find Wind
>
Craig (Go Short or Go Home!) Goudie
Sailing the high desert lakes of Utah on my:
Star 288, Gem 8'10" and Cobra 8'4" with
Naish Sails and Meritex Fins
-----== Posted via Deja News, The Leader in Internet Discussion ==-----
Keith Meder
NLW TFW NM wrote:
>
> RE:"What's the point of sailing 6.0 when you could be sailing 3.5, or 5.0,
> for that matter? I like to sail as small a sail as possible. I don't
> mind if I have to slog a little. I'm not racing anyone. I guess some
> people like Miatas and some people like Vipers. I'm more a Miata guy."
>
> That was my thought, exactly. I was WAY powered up on my 3.7, and the wind was
> consistent enough that I was a mile downwind of my launch site on a total
> sinker, yet these guys -- Bruce, Eric, etc. -- were on 6.x sails, doing their
> race thing. Of course, 3.7 stuff is common everyweek stuff in da Gorge, but an
> official event is not, so I can't fault that at all; Ya race when ya can and
> play when ya can't! Also of course were the broken nose and two broken ribs,
> but BY GOD they didn't hit no lulls!
>
> It's IMPRESSIVE to see these people handle, even master, 100% too much sail --
> slogging ALL to hell, so I do it occasionally -- and it's why modern sails'
> wind ranges are increasing so much. Bruce doesn't sail two and even three extra
> meters PURELY for fun. And I'll bet his V-10 Viper can STILL outmaneuver our
> Miatas when he's driving.
>
> Never Leave Wind To Find Wind
I too, use to try to go with the smallest sail possible, but with the
new race/slalom sails, if you rig too small, you'll never get on a
plane.
So now I rig at least a meter bigger than I use too and I find I shlog a
lot less. Here in Dallas when they forecast 15-25mph or even 20-30mph,
it usually turns out to be more like 5-35mph. I can rig my Naish Mana
6.3m on my Screamer 278 and blast all day. With the right amount of
downhaul, you can can approach light speed when one of those 30mph +
gust hits, instead of getting slammed big time like I use to on my old
1993 Rushwind GS 5.7m.
If it's a marginal 15-25mph, I can sail my Echo with a Mana 7.3m and it
still surprises me how much wind that combo can handle.
So for the gusty conditions we get around here, the newer sails and
boards have made sailing a lot more enjoyable and actually much less of
a workout.
Keith
Stewart Legler
Keith Meder (med...@airmail.net) wrote:
: I too, use to try to go with the smallest sail possible, but with the
: new race/slalom sails, if you rig too small, you'll never get on a
: plane.
: Here in Dallas when they forecast 15-25mph or even 20-30mph,
: it usually turns out to be more like 5-35mph.
: boards have made sailing a lot more enjoyable
in short: decide!
rig and tune for the lulls and the gusts
decent wind with giant gusts = big race sail "flatter"
(within design constaints, no "plywood" flat)
big wind with short lulls = smaller sail "fuller"
(please don't bag it over the booms)
stew
(we got that 20-30 forcast today!)
Bob Jacobson
Stewart,
You're right. Local conditions dictate what and how you rig. I was
looking at the wind readout for Berkely yesterday, and I realized that
for a considerable time, there was not that much variation in windspeed.
See:http://www.windcall.com/reports/site10.html. I probably would have
been very happy on a 5.7, but probably could also have sailed one of the
new 6.5 race sails.
I still don't like these new race sails, though. Giving a big sail a
good top end is apparently easier than giving a smaller sai a better low
end. I would rather have a 6.0 that is good from 12-30 than a 7.5 that
fits the same range. I'll bet that this is where the development effeort
is going right now. I pedict that next year sailmakers will be touting
6.0swith the low end of the old 7.0 and the top end of the old 5.0.
Bob Jacobson
Barry Ritchey
Re: I'm not racing anyone.
Not to pick on Bob here but (it could be Mike Fick or any other hundreds
of boardheads)... Anyone that has ever smiled a little bigger as they have
passed someone, pointed a half degree higher to outpoint someone, altered
course to sail a little closer to someone... you're all guilty of being a
'racer'. You just all deny it publically. I enjoy racing and I enjoy not
racing... but I'm still trying to sail as good as I can. That's what it's
all about - racing - it's just held in a structured and public format. And
it (racing) gives you a legitimate reason to buy more and newer gear.
Racing will also improve your sailing faster than any other type of
sailing. OK, a sixpack of masts and a good attitude at Hookipa (or any
other wavesailing spot) is good at 'forced learning' too. It takes a
stretch to enter that first race, but the first step is always the
hardest.
Didn't mean to pick on you BJ - your comment was just the catalyst for a
thought busting to escape. And from a "neutral outhaul" thread...?
Re: those cars.
I like the Miata and the Viper. But I wish I had the green for an M3...
-Barry "NM-0"
======================
Bob Jacobson wrote:
> Mike,
>
> What's the point of sailing 6.0 when you could be sailing 3.5, or 5.0,
> for that matter? I like to sail as small a sail as possible. I don't
> mind if I have to slog a little. I'm not racing anyone. I guess some
> people like Miatas and some people like Vipers. I'm more a Miata guy.
>
> Bob Jacobson
>
> NLW TFW NM wrote:
>
> > Man, yer SPOILT! I've seen many people race on 6.0 and 6.5 race
> > sails when big B&J sailors were SHREDDING on 3.5s. Sounds like you
> > sail
> > exclusively in liquid smoke at Rooster Rock!
> >
Bob Jacobson
Barry,
The difference between recreational sailors and racers is the same as
the difference between drunks and alcoholics - they don't have to go to
meetings. Anyhow, I wasn't putting down racers. It makes sense in a race
to rig as big as possible so that you can go as fast as absolutley
possible all the time. I just want to go as fast as possible with the
equipment I have rigged. And I want to rig as small as I can because
smaller sails are easier to handle (and generally cheaper, too).
Bob Jacobson
CLAM193
Wait a minute!
After reading some of these replies I've decided not to get back into
windsurfing after an 8 year lay off. What a hassel!!
Bob Jacobson
Fine, we'll have less hassel find a parking spot, you not being there
and all.
TomBuckOb2
>Wait a minute!
>
> After reading some of these replies I've decided not to get back into
>windsurfing after an 8 year lay off. What a hassel!!
What a dork - too hard for you??
It can be as simple or as complex as you want it to be. I sailed for years
oblivious to all technical issues and enjoyed it every single time.
Tom O'Brien - Chicago
JimCanniff
I agree with Tom. The sport can be very simple or amazingly complex and
expensive. I do feel that many sailors get way too caught up in the
technology of the sport. But I guess the equipment manufacturers would have
no reason for advancements if people weren't as 'into it'.
As far as the fin thing goes for me. I have the fins that come with my
boards plus a weed fin. If the fin/board combo isn't working I go to a
larger or smaller board.
And for the dude who took 8 years off and isn't returning. What the hell
have you been doing for 8 years? Can the group believe it, 8 years? I
cannot.
-Jim
Stewart Legler
CLAM193 (cla...@aol.com) wrote:
: Wait a minute!
: After reading some of these replies I've decided not to get back into
: windsurfing after an 8 year lay off. What a hassel!!
just buy
a 10.5 rino (swept tip blabe) for everything 4.3 to 6.3 (single cam)
a 14.50 finworks wing for everything up to 8.0
sail a 272cm 92 liter (for 160 lbs sailer) all the time
sure its a trade off (but simple)
you won't be the fastest...
but you wont miss many days
stew
NLW TFW NM
Re:"After reading some of these replies I've decided not to get back into
windsurfing after an 8 year lay off. What a hassel!! "
The degree of difficulty is a personal choice.