gybe turn or water start - which first?
shawnews
gybe turn or to waterstart?
I am in the harness and starting to feel for the footstraps. Water starts
seem like a lot of work for the benefit (?) and gybe turns LOOK like lots of
fun. What should come first?
Jerry McEwen
get wind, they could take a long time to nail.
Waterstarting allows you to save your strength rather than uphaul a
tippy, sinking board in lots of chop. You need this strength to work
on those jibes.
There is no reason whatsoever to think you have to learn one and then
the other, but I feel that waterstarts are far more important. If you
can beachstart, you are already halfway there.
dougm
significant safety issue. To go where there's enough wind for planing and
jibing, often big chop comes along with it. Waterstarting is a breeze (pun
intended) compared to uphauling in big chop, for a beginner. Since you can't
jibe, how else can you get pointed back to shore in those unpredictable
conditions? Jerry just understated a bit how much easier waterstarting is
than jibing. Sure it initially feels awkward, and like all else in
windsurfing, seems to defy physics and logic (eg. "How the hell do you get
pulled up by pushing up on the booms instead of pulling down on them??").
But with the waterstart, once you hit one of them, you go "whoa I got it."
You question whether you can do a second and maybe blow a couple, but then
you get you second, and your third, all in the same session. And from that
point on its become second nature. Way easier than bike riding, with just a
bit of clean up around the edges, like waterstarting big cambered sails,
light wind waterstarting, and clew first, all being optional. The jibe is a
different hairy animal altogether. After numerous tapes and expensive
lessons, and a hundred failed attempts, you hit your first survival jibe,
and justifyably scream for joy. Then your jibe career begins. It is no
exageration to say that you're facing 1000 jibes before you begin to
resemble what you see on the tapes. Years of jibe after jibe, 30 -50
days/yr, 10 -20 attempts/session. Fun, absolutely. The best! But it is still
the reigning king of skill moves required in this overall pursuit. The
glittering gateway from intermediate to advanced windsurfing. Enjoy it all,
but be safe first.
-
Doug
-
"shawnews" <cllo...@shaw.ca> wrote in message
news:YEO79.160094$v53.8...@news3.calgary.shaw.ca...
Jerry McEwen
On Sun, 18 Aug 2002 19:41:30 GMT, "dougm" <dmar...@attbi.com> wrote:
Mike Pringuer
up with the board and sail in the right position to waterstart almost
straight away.
No reason why cant learn both at once, providing you can beach start.
------
"shawnews" <cllo...@shaw.ca> wrote in message
news:YEO79.160094$v53.8...@news3.calgary.shaw.ca...
Frank Weston
waterstart.
Frank Weston
"shawnews" <cllo...@shaw.ca> wrote in message
news:YEO79.160094$v53.8...@news3.calgary.shaw.ca...
Mike F
it's been pointed out in all the times this question has been asked.
Whack!
Mike \m/
"Frank Weston" <fr...@weston-american.com> wrote in message
news:um0g8i4...@corp.supernews.com...
DavMen
Practice both !
After you try your gybe and fall in hopefully your sail will be in the
right spot to practice your water start.
DavMen
"shawnews" <cllo...@shaw.ca> wrote in message news:<YEO79.160094$v53.8...@news3.calgary.shaw.ca>...
Jerry McEwen
On Sun, 18 Aug 2002 18:36:02 -0700, "Mike F" <iso...@urxSpamDam.com>
wrote:
anthony
of chances to practise your waterstarts!
Anthony.
"shawnews" <cllo...@shaw.ca> wrote in message news:<YEO79.160094$v53.8...@news3.calgary.shaw.ca>...
dougm
effect" of learning jibes is clever, but problematic on a few counts:
a) he may drown first
b) he will get so tired and frustrated that he gives up on his jibes, or
c) he'll lose focus, forget what he's trying to learn and just take longer
overall.
I know I'm responding to tongue-in-cheek, but let me turn it around and
point out that the waterstart involves lessons vital to the jibe, only
learned in a far slower less dynamic and difficult mode. Just consider the
second nature skills of flying the sail, mastfoot pressure, keeping the
board from rounding up as you power up, and finding the subtle throttle
control to keep pressure and power, but not get launched. Does anyone here
really recommend that someone try a jibe without these skills and senses
being automatic? Finish grade school cleanly before starting high school.
Doug
"anthony" <ant...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:4b18702e.02081...@posting.google.com...
Mike F
people's first 1,000 or so (my estimate) jibe attempts will be followed by a
water start attempt ANYWAY, so why try to separate the two chronologically?
Similarly, one learns to use the straps, go faster, point higher, jump, etc.
at the same time (OK, in the same sessions) as learning to waterstart,
because they don't compete for the same minute. We work on SAILING between
jibe attempts, jibes (or fast tacks) at each end of each reach, and on water
starts immediately after each jibe attempt. Guess which skill matures first.
And guess which is most vital to WSing? We could sail for decades without
pulling off one planing jibe; they're icing on the cake. But marginal
waterstarts limit our venues to small bodies of water (no salt water, no
Great Lakes, etc. unless winds are onshore and absolutely will NOT change
directions) and no serious boat traffic (no Gorge, no Laguna del Madre boat
channel, no harbors), and can kill. Waterstarting in any conditions is the
most vital skill in WSing, IMO.
But if I had to perfect my waterstart before starting to try jibes, I'd have
taken even more years to learn jibing, and long ago asked, "SEZ WHO?".
Check out algebra in grade school if you can; can't hurt (or does algebra
begin in grade school these days?)
But he needs to realize that he will make virtually zero progress with
planing jibes until a) years have gone by, b) he has taken competent (i.e.,
pro) jibing lessons and studied many instructional videos, c) he is
absolutely RIPPING in the straps and harness all day alongside his local
hotshoes, and d) his footsteering is advanced, by which time he'll have
waterstarts wired anyway. He also needs to realize that jibing on flat water
and jibing in heavy chop/swell are two DRAMATICALLY different skills,
probably a couple of seasons apart for most situations.
Sadly, still no tongue in cheek.
Mike \m/
"dougm" <dmar...@attbi.com> wrote in message
news:NS789.78255$983.89660@rwcrnsc53...
John Lawrence
waiting for the wind to strengthen...there was a wooden platform from the
previous nights open air concert, so with sail fully rigged, I got onto the
platform, jammed the mast base between the planks, and practiced sitting,
then lying under the sail, then even hooking into my harness.... with only
the sail to concentrate on (no wobbly board or slopping waves) after a while
it became very easy to go from lying to standing both sides, in about 10-12K
winds.... combining that sail-feel with beach-start knowledge it was a snap
to waterstart...and Ive taught it successfully that way ever
since....bottomline, as long as you can waterstart, you can go out and come
back whether you flub jybes or not...so I wd agree learning to waterstart
trumps learning to jybe..... J
dougm <dmar...@attbi.com> wrote in message
news:NS789.78255$983.89660@rwcrnsc53...
Mike F
;-)
Mike \m/
"John Lawrence" <jesla...@worldnet.att.net> wrote in message
news:77989.19776$Ke2.1...@bgtnsc04-news.ops.worldnet.att.net...
Tom Gamble
I was taught the gybe was spinning the mast around. Is this the gybe that
is being talked about (catching it on the other side?) or the duck-gybe
which I am scared to do?
-Tom
"Mike Pringuer" <mpri...@yahoo.co.uk> wrote in message
news:ajp7l3$k6d$1...@venus.btinternet.com...
Tom O'B
device. Flotation device is not for safety, but for ease of waterstarting.
It is about 100 times easier to clear a largish sail with a life jacket on.
Also, remember Mike F's giant underwater leg swivel technique for getting
the gear in the right orientation.
Tom - Chicago
"dougm" <dmar...@attbi.com> wrote in message
news:NS789.78255$983.89660@rwcrnsc53...
Mike F
is a tack). As generally addressed in this forum, it refers to a jibe which
we plane all the way through. The rest ... duck, monkey, mast-handling,
boom-to-boom, etc. ... is mere details and options. Since you had to ask the
question, you're right in being "scared" of a duck jibe, as you're still
light years from being ready to try a planing jibe. No put-down, merely an
observation, because a planing jibe is an advanced maneuver way beyond
straps, harnesses, keeping up with the fast guys on ripping planes,
waterstarts in big chop, and jumps. No one who hasn't studied jibes at GREAT
length on videos and/or in lessons (and thus would not need to ask) is going
to be jibing any more often than 1,000,000 monkeys playing with windsurfers
... and that's ain't often.
That said ... if you do them without all that, more power to ya; you'll be
a pro before long.
Mike \m/
"Tom Gamble" <magicalyak@hot[SAYNOTOUBE]mail.com> wrote in message
news:um29tml...@corp.supernews.com...
John Lawrence
changed!
Mike F <iso...@urxSpamDam.com> wrote in message
news:dF989.1654$Tb3....@news.webusenet.com...
Jay Halford
nuts. He rigs up at the Marina on the grass (without fin of course), and
launches himself into the grass trying to get the feel for looping. He does
this in his straps!
He's been doing this for several weeks now and has amazing remained injury
free.
Jay
"Mike F" <iso...@urxSpamDam.com> wrote in message
news:dF989.1654$Tb3....@news.webusenet.com...
Dan Weiss
--
Dan
"Jay Halford" <Hal...@attbi.com> wrote in message
news:U9i89.211967$uj.3...@rwcrnsc51.ops.asp.att.net...
Charles Ivey
Mike F
several times per minute. Terrain seems to do that.
Mike \m/
"John Lawrence" <jesla...@worldnet.att.net> wrote in message
news:uge89.20315$Ke2.1...@bgtnsc04-news.ops.worldnet.att.net...
Jay Halford
failure on the water. He made up this technique BTW. Not too many other
people would do this I think.
Jay
"Dan Weiss" <dwusDON'TSP...@bellsouthSPAMSTER.net> wrote in message
news:YEi89.66750$dr.86...@e3500-atl1.usenetserver.com...
Tom O'B
Tom - Chicago
"Jay Halford" <Hal...@attbi.com> wrote in message
news:LEt89.91021$983.107601@rwcrnsc53...
Jay Halford
anyone else would like to video him, his name is Dave, and he lives out of a
blue VW bus, and is almost always at the Hatch, Dougs, or the Marina (parks
and trains there on light wind days). On the water he wears a yellow helmet
and sails an old Watson. He is moving to Portland soon to try a real career
(did I mention he has a Phd from MIT?), so you may have to catch him
weekends after labor day.
Jay
"Tom O'B" <to...@SPAMDAM.att.net> wrote in message
news:jpN89.3880$yt3.1...@newssrv26.news.prodigy.com...
Don Heffernan
> Also, remember Mike F's giant underwater leg swivel technique for getting
> the gear in the right orientation.
I missed Mike's swivel technique. How about repeating it?
Don
Mike F
Why swim?
In Tinho's July tutorial on flying the sail, he advises swimming one's gear
into waterstart position. May I suggest an easier way?
Because I like to save my energy for shreddin' rather than for mundane
peripheral activities such as positioning my gear, I have never yet swum my
gear into position. Remember when we were kids, floating with an inner tube
around our chest, swinging our legs in a wide circle as fast as possible to
get the tube spinning at about 100 RPM until we wanted to puke? The same
technique turns our gear, too. Place one hand on the board and the other on
the rig, swing your legs in a few big circles, and the board and rig are
rotated into position quickly and effortlessly. It uses far bigger muscles
than swimming, takes no apparent effort and only a few seconds, and keeps
our feet well clear of any rocks.
Tip: I kicked the fin once doing this, in 1983. I haven't kicked it again.
Me smart.
Mike \m/
"Don Heffernan" <don...@excite.com> wrote in message
news:2a45f81d.0208...@posting.google.com...
Steve Pretti
We need this and "Throw, throw, grab and go" at an easy to bookmark URL.
"Mike F" <iso...@urxSpamDam.com> wrote in message
news:xET89.1692$z16...@news.webusenet.com...
frusdniw
For bookmarking Mike swivel kick tip, just go to google and do a search,
when you find the message, bookmark the link to it.
I don't utilize all of the advice in Mike's jibe tips, but Throw, Throw,
Grab, Go, was KEY to me hitting my jibes. There were other keys, too,
but that was a biggy. I never made a decent jibe until I started doing
that. The analogy to shot put and a football pass helped visualization,
too.
Hans
--
Hans -
Commodore, CCWA, http://www.corpuschristiwindsurfing.com/
Corpus info -> http://windsurf.hansanderson.com/
for wheenies -> http://windlog.hansanderson.com/journal/hans
**** remove the z's from my email address to reach me ****
Tom O'B
know this, but I met my 65 CM Machete Fin last weekend with bloody results.
Tom - Chicago
"Mike F" <iso...@urxSpamDam.com> wrote in message
news:xET89.1692$z16...@news.webusenet.com...
Mike F
importance of jibing the board with our hips and jibing the sail with our
hands/shoulders cannot be overemphasized. Focusing our board-turning input
100% into a very powerful thrust of our hips (from butt to knees) brings
that board around like there's no tomorrow; none of this
mash-the-foot-into-the-leeward-rail pussyfooting business unless one WANTS a
wide, slow arc and its accompanying bounce and loss of speed.
Mike \m/
"frusdniw" <frus...@hanszanderszon.cozm> wrote in message
news:Pine.LNX.4.21.0208220819060.12774-100000@balingwire...
> Steve, go here:
>
>
http://groups.google.com/groups?hl=en&selm=5X5C5.1676%24rO1.65750%40newsread
Jay Halford
me. not only does it work, but it keeps me from falling to the inside of my
jibes (angulating vs leaning the whole body). still working on lots of other
jibe stuff though.
Jay
"Mike F" <iso...@urxSpamDam.com> wrote in message
news:%Z899.4869$z16....@news.webusenet.com...
Mike F
one's cg too far inside the wake.
I know I mentioned it before, but I first got SERIOUS about it a couple of
weeks ago. Man, when I FEEL and EXAGGERATE the power right in the hips, as
though that car door I am closing is really fighting me and I'm PO'd,
everything about the carve is far better, from the arc to the elapsed time
to the bounce reduction to the recovery to no CHANCE of falling inside. It
just drives everything from board to rig to body right to where they should
all come together on the new broad reach, maybe even barely past downwind. I
often jibe from beam reach to straight downwind, by which time I'm already
hooked in on the new side and getting into the straps before reaching the
new broad reach. There's NO obvious speed loss from old beam reach to new
beam reach when my timing's right, and it takes less than two seconds.
Now if I could just commit this to muscle memory rather than conscious
thought, that would be great, but at nearly 60 our muscle training ability
is fast becoming history.
Mike \m/
"Jay Halford" <Hal...@attbi.com> wrote in message
news:eIb99.139057$me6.19172@sccrnsc01...
Elliot Froidevaux
really do it for me in the jibes. Everything does tend to fall into place so
quickly you don't have time to realise what just happened..:-)
Though I remain with front foot locked in the strap right through to the
other side, meaning I sail "switch stance" for a second or two before
switching feet position, which tends to slow me down somewhat. Not my most
confortable position to be in even though I am getting used to it.
When I switch my feet with sail flip together, the carve is not as tight and
aggressive, but I do come out almost as fast as I started with.
The snowboarding carve (an exagerated movement) for the board to maintain a
smooth tight carve indeed can apply very well to windsurfing. Never thought
of the link between the two sports. Should really give it a go.
Just one thought: Has anyone tried carving and pushing so hard on the tail
to make it spin out and actually continue into a complete on the water
board/sail 360? Since you tend to lean forward into the jibe, and with this
hip movement going from front to back, then front again, in theory this
could work. With a small fin that can easily be spun-out, this would
backwind you as you are going backwards (weight on front hand/foot) and
completing a 360 without the aerial side of the conventional grubby.
This is a very common/basic move in snowboarding of course without the sail.
In windsurfing, other than the carve 360, all such manoeuvres are aerial
natured.
We could call it the "Back-Slash 360!"..:-)
When I finally land a successful Vulcan, maybe I'll give it go.
Elliot
"Mike F" <iso...@urxSpamDam.com> wrote in message
news:oGe99.4957$z16....@news.webusenet.com...
Heinz Kiosk
getting your hair wet.
Waterstarting can be practiced under control in gradually deeper water.
The components of waterstarting can be practiced separately. (gybing
comprises maybe 20 actions in 3 seconds all of which have to be dynamically
handled in sequence)
If you aren't out of your depth and the wind is strong enough there's no
need to get tired when practicing waterstarts
If you can beachstart smoothly and manouevre the board via the boom only you
are already 1/3 of the way to waterstarting
Don't try either of these skills until you are comfortably flying along in
the straps... there may not even be enough wind if you aren't screaming on a
reach in the harness and straps.
Success is a great buzz. Your first successful waterstart will have you
grinning soon if you get plenty of suitable conditions. Your first
successful planing gybe is some way away.
Good Luck
Jack (Sarasota)
skills until you are comfortably flying along in
the straps... there may not even be enough wind if you aren't
screaming on a
reach in the harness and straps."
Certainly true for the Planing Gybe, but waterstarts are probably
easier to learn in "moderate" conditions, which depending on the board
may not provide enough wind to scream, or possibly even get in the
reaching straps.
Jack (Sarasota)
"Heinz Kiosk" <no....@ntlworld.com> wrote in message
news:ri2b9.674$X11.29872@newsfep2-gui...
Mike F
Things happen too fast when it's rippin', but one can make waterstart
mistakes, correct them, recover, and still make a waterstart if the wind is
just baaarrrrrrely sufficient. Full planing winds, and the learning process
is more like a series of endless "Wham, Bam, Whut the hell happened?".
Mike m/
"Jack (Sarasota)" <Jack...@comcast.net> wrote in message
news:PcAb9.282735$m91.11...@bin5.nnrp.aus1.giganews.com...
Ed Foster
"Heinz Kiosk" <no....@ntlworld.com> wrote:
> Waterstarting is around 100 times easier than pulling a planing gybe without
> getting your hair wet.
Trying to learn a planing gybe is what perfects your waterstart. :-)