Favorite sail sizes conflicts with proper spacing
sf...@attbi.com
trying to revamp my sail quiver in a way that makes sense. I now
realize I've become biased (both for and against) certain sails sizes
making it difficult to space out my quiver in an optimum way. For
example, I can't envision not having a 6.5m sail- it's the perfect size
for a lot of my sailing. I recently threw in the trash an old 5.0m
that I never liked. It always seemed it was either a little too big or
a little too small whenever I used it. So I replaced it with 2 sails
which bracketed the size- 4.7m and 5.3m. I threw out my old rarely
used 4.1m and replaced it with a new 4.2m figuring I might get more use
out of a slightly bigger sail. I got a used 5.8m to fill the gap
between the 5.3m and 6.5m and decided to keep my trusty 8.0m Retro for
now. So now I have 6 sails- 4.2, 4.7, 5.3, 5.8, 6.5, 8.0. Only the
4.2m is new, the others range from late 1990's to early 2000's. Before
I replace any more sails, it would be nice if I followed a logical
plan. Part of me wants to cover the same range with 5 sails, but every
scheme I come up with either doesn't include my favorite 6.5m size or
includes the dreaded (for me) 5.0m size. Am I being slightly crazy
here or what???
Dan Weiss
budget (although creative negotiation can get you a great bargain) but
I suggest using the same type of sail from the same brand in the same
year at all times. You will get maximum range with the fewest sails,
and do wo while retaining the same feel. This last part is really
important to tuning an entire quiver. It's hard to appreciate how much
this can improve one's windsurfing until experienced. LeeD and others
enjoy mixing and matching, but it rarely is the best way to go.
There is nothing magical about a particular number, as you know. The
fact that 6.5 is key for you may have a lot to do with a particular 6.5
that worked for you. I happen to have loved a 6.1 from the mid 90s'.
It was so sweet. But I've since owned many sails since that lovely
piece of work and can now say the acreage has nothing to do with it.
It's how the sail matches with all the other aspects, mast, fin, board,
conditions, what you ate for breakfast, and how many palm trees grow on
the beach.
If you really want to know what sail is the bomb, contact the sail
maker directly. He will tell you, for example, that the 6.5 didn't get
all the development attention that it would normally because the wind
always blew 30 knots during the R&D. Or, it could be that the 6.5 of a
particular year is the largest sail that goes on a small mast this
year-something that will totally change how the sail feels to a heavy
person.
More precisely, a quiver range depends a ton on the conditions you
encounter. For recreational sailors, choppy water usually means more
wind, but a lot less control than the same wind in flat water. Thus,
25 knots blowing across a small harbor usually allows for a larger sail
than 25 knots of crazy ping-pong ball chop. Another factor is the
range of your board. I mean, I can sail my FW board with a single sail
over about a 15 knot meaningful range. If that's your kind of fun,
then you probably only want 2 sails. On the other hand, if you have a
135 liter "freeride" board and a 90l bump board, then 2 sails probably
isn't going to cut it because the conditions and sailing style will
vary so much.
By the looks of it, the latter scenario might reflect your sailing
reality. In eny event, I do suggest building a quiver of identical
sails for each board.
-Dan
sm...@fit.edu
is about a 15% gap for smaller sails, and 20% for larger sails. This
can obviously be adjusted to personal taste.
So if you know you want to keep 6.5, 15% smaller is 5.5, then 4.7
(which you have) then 4.0 (4.2 close enough). 20% bigger than 6.5 is
8.1, so 8.0 is close enough.
Of course this all assumes you're on fairly modern gear with the right
mast and a decent boom.
sm
Steven Slaby
> 4.2m is new, the others range from late 1990's to early 2000's. Before
> I replace any more sails, it would be nice if I followed a logical
> plan. Part of me wants to cover the same range with 5 sails, but every
> scheme I come up with either doesn't include my favorite 6.5m size or
> includes the dreaded (for me) 5.0m size. Am I being slightly crazy
> here or what???
>
If you don't want to squeeze out the max out of the range go with a
roughly 20 percent gap between sails, starting with your favourite size,
the 6.6
7.7 (8.0 is close enough)
6.5
5.5
4.5 (unfortunately 4.2 would be too big a gap to the 5.5 imho but since
you already have it, keep it which would make 5 sails).
I have the following which has worked for me (approx 25% gap):
10.5
7.5
6.0
5.0
4.2
I had a 8.3 which was too close to the 7.5 so I sold it and I'm going to
see if the 7.5 to 10.5 gap is ok or not for this year. So far, so good.
Steve.
kurt
10.0
8.0
6.5
5.5
4.7
I have an old 4.2 I use about once every 18 months; a 4.2 day on Lake
Michigan is life threatening.
When I finally got all the same sail line (Retro for me, but whatever
line you like), it was a revelation; I think it improved my sailing
handling immensely. If you can get all the same line, do so.
a_m...@yahoo.com
> here or what???
Of course you are - you're a windsurfer. We're all slightly crazy.
That said - 6.5 is a sweet spot in many sail ranges, as it hits that
sweet spot of powered up sailing on 100 liter boards.
If that's your pivot size, it makes total sense to build the rest of
the quiver around it. The desire for simplification is also very
understandable. Are you using adjustable outhaul to really get the full
range out of your 6.5? Something like a 6.5 Retro can easily be sailed
until you're fully powered on a 5.3. Might be a bit of an adjustment if
you're not used to sailing OP'd, but it's always surprising how much
range you can get out of a good modern sail.
Also, often when you're getting OP'd on something like a 6.5, just
switching down a fin size will make a big difference.
-Andreas
Florian Feuser
> Part of me wants to cover the same range with 5 sails, but every
> scheme I come up with either doesn't include my favorite 6.5m size or
> includes the dreaded (for me) 5.0m size. Am I being slightly crazy
> here or what???
I would start by replacing the size sail you're using most (or like
using best) with a new one. It's bound to feel different. If that's a
6.5, there are many ways to fill the gaps down to 4.2. I'd get a feel
for the top end of your new "main" sail first.
My quiver spacing:
6.4m KA Kult
5.7m Kaos
5.0m Kaos
4.2m Kaos
The 6.4 isn't too rangy - rather powerful and compact-feeling. The
smaller sizes have huge range, there is just enough overlap between the
5.0 and the 4.2
I wanted to get a 5.3 and 4.7 instead, but - contrary to your
experience - the 5.0 is my favorite sail size and covers a huge wind
range. Could it be the brand/make?
;-)
BTW: I am selling a new 5.3m Kaos on iWindsurf... I just don't need it.
Florian
KurtM
different sails perform, well, differently. If you own the same brand and
model of a sail in different sizes, you can generally assume that they
will work well as a set, but mixing brands and styles means that you can
only really tell if your logic works by sailing the equipment. So try to
demo a sail before purchasing if at all possible. I used to turn my quiver
every season, and I can tell you that even the same make/model of sail
can vary dramatically in performance from year to year as manufacturers
vary their sail design.
Gaps can typically be wider in larger sails, while large gaps in smaller
sails often make make your sailing more difficult. That's because the
force of the wind increases exponentially. Therefore, moving from winds of
15 to 20 mph increases the force in your sail less than moving from 20 to
25 mph. Well designed sails often account for this by varying their
profile slightly as size varies, with smaller sails leaning toward control
in the high end and larger sails developing greater power.
Regardless, since larger sails can generally twist off more and because of
the exponential impact of increasing wind speed, I typically recommend
full meter gaps in recreational sails since you can learn to tweak the
gear with downhaul and outhaul to get quite a bit of range from your sail.
More importantly, you can stay with one sail over a wider wind range
meaning less time rigging and more time sailing.
dale-...@monsya.net
KurtM wrote:
<snip>
> Gaps can typically be wider in larger sails, while large gaps in smaller
> sails often make make your sailing more difficult. That's because the
> force of the wind increases exponentially. Therefore, moving from winds of
> 15 to 20 mph increases the force in your sail less than moving from 20 to
> 25 mph. Well designed sails often account for this by varying their
> profile slightly as size varies, with smaller sails leaning toward control
> in the high end and larger sails developing greater power.
>
>
I agree with this as well. I weigh around 95kgs and prefer less than
half metre size increments around the 5.0m mark, but when I get up to
6.5m, a 1m increment is okay, and then after that the next most used
sail is a 9m. My quiver is 5.0, 5.4, 6.0, 6.6, 7.5, and 9.0.
My lighter friends find that they can get away with a jump from a 5.0
to a 6.0 or bigger, just because they are sailing these sails in
lighter winds.
If I were to keep a 1 metre spacing between my sails I would find that
in the larger sizes, there would be a few redundant sails, and in the
smaller sizes I would find I would go from over-powered to underpowered
just by changing a single sail size. Changing the fin doesn't make that
much difference to me in these conditions.
Dale.
Jrobb
I think most of the bases have been covered, bu tI'll add my worthless
two-pence.
I until today had
4.4 old 2cam race (soon to be replaced)
5.3 wave
7.3 nocam freeride
all by different manufacturers. This worked "ok" fo rme but as it is
obvious to most left a large gap. My most used boards are
103l(actually 97l) and 80l. I do have a 135l but it is now a lake
board. My go to sails were the 5.3 and 7.3, both could be used on the
103l but only the 5.3 and 4.4 would fit on my 80l. I generally would
rig the 5.3 and tune accordingly. If I needed slightly bigger sail, to
cover the gap in stead of rigging the 7.3, I'd swap out the little
board for more float. This worked more or less, but made for a bit of
a headache at times. The 7.3 was either a tad to omuch or the 5.3 was
a tad too small.
Enter a 5.8 cam/nocam freeride. This (so far) fills the gap quite
nicely. Tuned for mid to heavyier wind it's low end (16-19mph)
overlaps the 7.3 (14mph pumpin) and easily overlaps the 5.3. The help
from the 7.3 having a great range (14-23mph) makes this seamless...for
me at least.
4.4, 5.3, 5.8, 7.3 is how I stand and so far the only thing I see
hapening is possibly going bigger...maybe 9.0 but that means new mast,
boom, and money I don't have. For now this gets me on the water 5 out
of 7days a week if need be. Even god rested for a day so I figure two
is good enough for me..8)
J
Steven Slaby
That's why its better to use a fixed percentage to calculate your quiver
gaps so that you don't get into overlap issues by talking absolute numbers
like .5 or 1 meter gaps (or 0.1 meter gaps in LeeD's case). Try
calculating the percent increase from your smallest through to your
biggest and you will see where you have the overlap. I close a big
percentage and go from 6 to 7.5 so I would have no need for a 6.6.
Steve.
Craig Goudie
-Craig
<sf...@attbi.com> wrote in message
news:1154631483.1...@h48g2000cwc.googlegroups.com...
kike
sf...@attbi.com
although Andreas validated some of my thinking and Florian's quiver
came close to matching mine, so I'm not too far out of line. Starting
clean with all new sails from the same brand sounds great but that's
not going to happen, at least not this year. My oldest sail is 1997
4.7m Sailworks Revo. My thinking now is to replace it with a new 4.8m
Revo to compliment my new 4.2m Revo. I'm still not sure how it will
all pan out, but based on the feedback here, I'll be going with larger
spacing between sail sizes than what I currently have. Thanks for the
responses!
Steve
Wolfgang Soergel
[..]
> now. So now I have 6 sails- 4.2, 4.7, 5.3, 5.8, 6.5, 8.0. Only the
> 4.2m is new, the others range from late 1990's to early 2000's. Before
> I replace any more sails, it would be nice if I followed a logical
> plan. Part of me wants to cover the same range with 5 sails, but every
> scheme I come up with either doesn't include my favorite 6.5m size or
> includes the dreaded (for me) 5.0m size. Am I being slightly crazy
> here or what???
Sounds familiar. For me, 6.3/4/5 is also a key size since it is the
biggest i have. Next key size is 5.7/5.8 since this is the biggest sail
which makes sense for me in the waves. The 6.4 is a freestyle model and
lives on a very light 100% carbon mast, thus waves are no option. This
leads in the moment more or less automatically to 5.0, 4.5, 4.0 and 3.7
as smaller sails. Worked very well for me and has the advantage that
there is enough redundancy in case one sail fails. Quite similar to your
spacing except for the 5.0 thing. Which i think is quite funny: Many
years ago, i saddled 5.0 like you do now. And always had the feeling i
needed one. Then i was happy with 5.0 for a long time but had a number
of das lastly when 4.7 (or 4.2 or 5.3) would have been the perfect call.
So an optin for both of us could be to go 5.3-4.7-4.2-3.7 in the small
range and leave out the 5.7/5.8. In chop or flat water there is
probabely enough overlapp between 5.3 and 6.5 but otoh. i've come to
like that light air surfsailing and thus might again go for my old
spacing. Which might be warranted anyways since i wear out the sails in
question before i would throw them away of old age anyways. Only my old
4.0 Ezzy refuses to die...
Wolfgang
cosmicharlie
What a long thread!!! This must be a topic WSers mull over often. In
fact just yesterday I was doing that. I was wondering since I love my
late model 6.5 so much, I should figure the older 6.0's I own shouldn't
eventually be replaced. Perhaps, I could get by with a three sail
quiver, 8.4, 6.5 and 5.0. Then the fact that all my sails are
different took over. The 6.5 has three cams while I have one two cam
and another camberless 6.0. There's a pretty noticable gap in
performance between camberless 6.0 and the 6.5 which makes me realize
that I wouldn't want to part with either. Then there's a 5.6 race with
more camber-inducers than I can remember. I own three 5.0's, none of
which I've used this season as they only come out over 30 knots. I
replaced two older sails with a fairly new one last winter. However,
the older ones, one a two cambered race from mast track forward days
and another later single cambered job, might still serve me well. Now
I have a sail I can rig on nukin' days with a loose leach and one I can
rig on those days with high winds and serious lulls. Size isn't always
the only variable. They also vary with manufacturers. I have a sail
which was marked 7.1 but when I put it on top of my 6.5, I saw only
about a tenth of a meter difference.
Bill (NC/ME)
type of sail. I don't have them all from the same year, but they are
all recent vintage V8's. This has worked very well for me. The newer
the sail, the larger the gap, it seems. I have a 9.8 (2005), 7.7
(2004), 6.6 (2003), 6.0 (2005)... all V8's. These tend to be my primary
sails because I don't get out in more wind that that most of the year.
The other sails in my quiver are a hodge podge. They are old and worn
out... I have a 4.0, 4.7, 5.0, 5.5. I'll start replacing them. I'll
probably think of the replacement sails as a 2nd quiver though. The
V8's are great for flatwater blasting, but since I'm only 65kg, I find
that when I'm using anything below a 6.0, I tend to be in chop. So, for
the smaller sizes, I'll look into a more freeride or freemove type
sail. I'm actually expecting to overlap my two quivers around the 6.0
mark because there will be different situations for different 6.0
sails, as far as I'm concerned. I absolutely love my 6.0 V8 and can't
imagine not using it on my iSonic 105. But when I go out on my 91L, I
want to have something more oriented to a bump & jump board. No matter
what sizes I pick, I'll get them from one brand in order to make sure
they fit together well.
On the subject of size gaps, I think it is all dependant on how much a
sailor weighs and their skill levels.
Today, if I was to get a new quiver replacing all my sails, I would get
something like this: 10.0, 8.5, 7.5, 6.5, 6.0, 5.7, 5.2, 4.7, 4.2.
Alex Pang
favorite sail size: 5.0
quiver: 5.0, 5.0, 5.0
gotta have those backups, backup of backups..
although didn't have to go through as much sails
this year as it's been less than stellar coastal
sailing conditions
alex
cosmicharlie
sizes. It's prabably due to my lack of skill, but I enjoy R.A.F.'s
because they are easier to jibe. On the other hand I enjoy camber
induced sails for the low end power. In fact, I seem to have an easier
time gybing my 8.4 than I do the 6.5 for this reason. Also the 3
cambered 6.5 has a lot more ability for me when it comes to getting up
on a plane and staying there than any of the other comparable sails,
but I can gybe the 6.0 camberless with ease. Sticking to one brand may
have less of a difference, but I like to know something about all the
brands. Of course that isn't realistic, but at least I have an idea as
to the differences in sails and sail quality. When I'm 80, I want to
be able to sit on the beach in Maui in the middle of a good discussion
about the sport and follow it.
cosmicharlie
a_m...@yahoo.com wrote:
> That said - 6.5 is a sweet spot in many sail ranges, as it hits that
> sweet spot of powered up sailing on 100 liter boards.
6.3 the most. I've gained some weight and sail more, so my sail use
has changed. Putting in more days on the water led to using larger
sails a lot. Now, I prabably use the 8.4 the most. However, I still
get a lot of use out of the 6.5. However, I can't sail with the 100
liter board unless the winds are steady. This year they haven't been.
At 100 kgs I've sailed more with my 130 liter board than any other.
Craig Goudie
in the same model. It just makes no sense.
i.e. you won't find any V8s below 5.0. So, most people switch to a
different type sail from the same manufacturer.
As an example, I run a 6.7 Northwave Stiletto (no cam race sail) as my large
Gorge sail, and then switch to Northwave
Surflites from 5.5 on down. The drop from 6.7 to 5.5 is perfect. If this
were 2 different manufacturers, it's unlikely
it would work well.
Likewise, I have a bud who runs Loft O2s (more race oriented) in 6.6 and
5.4 sizes, and then switches down
to Loft Lips ( wave oriented) at 4.7.
The Manufacturers explicitly design that way. Going with several brands,
might keep you up to date, on them,
but I think I'd rather just gain that knowledge through less direct (and
expensive) methods. Ultimately, buying sails
from the same manufacturer saves you money in reduced quiver size, and more
TOW.
.02
-Craig
"cosmicharlie" <bes...@verizon.net> wrote in message
news:1154948652.3...@m73g2000cwd.googlegroups.com...
Wolfgang Soergel
Now that is a really nice quiver. Although maybe 4.7, 4.7, 3.7 would be
even better :-)
Greetings to an obviousely seriousely cool place from windless bavaria
Wolfgang