8.1 vs 9.4 Supersonic
Mark1754
At 145 lbs sailing in the 10-14 mph range I am wondering if I will notice
that much difference jumping to the larger sail. Have used a 7.5 Noa on a
Superlight II in these conditions and is just not quite enuf.
Will the ease of planning on the Starboard offset using the 8.1...
Zooka
Mark1754 wrote in message ...
Mendota767
sail either. Last week my 7.5 was almost there but not quite. I got out my new
8.5 pyro and presto, up on a plane and flying. I would get the bigger sail
Ihav2work
sail...@ameritel.net
ihav...@aol.com (Ihav2work) wrote:
> "get a cambered sail"
Why?
What, other than the 4 things I will list here, are the cambers good for
in recreational lite air conditons?
#1 So you can pump like an idiot to try and keep up with the no cam
sails in <12 knots? (Hmmm! Maybe you like all that effort and noise
cause it's cool?)
#2 Or so you can sail a 9.0 or 8.1 in 20 knots when everyone else is
rippin' on 6.0? (For what, the smaller sails may actually be faster)
#3 So you can be sure that your new "superplaner" only "planes" in more
than marginal (ie >8 knots) conditions while the no-cam, lighter weight,
sails effortlessly whisk their sailors up onto a plane with no pumping
in a knot or 2 less?
#4 So you can go upwind another degree or 2 higher, when totally wound
out drag racing your buddies. (Hmmmm? I've tried this tactic on race
sails, and they just drop off a few degrees and rip right by. After all,
there are no "upwind marks"in recreational sailing so who cares about a
few degrees of additonal upwind performance.)
OK, why?
--
sailquik US 3704 Ph.(301)872-9459 (In So. MD)
LvL I Instuctor (252)995-3204 (In Avon, NC)
F2/MPB/Sailworks/Tectonics/True Ames/Chinook/Kokatat/Da Kine
Sent via Deja.com http://www.deja.com/
Share what you know. Learn what you don't.
gu...@my-deja.com
that both the Sailworks Retro and HotSail Stealth have been rated (on
6 or 6.5 sails) as a bit weak in light air. So please tell me that I am
wrong and what I should buy instead of a 9.5 Naish Stealth. I really
welcome all suggestions. At 95kg I have 5.5 and 7.4 no-cams. Neil Pryde
is coming up with a replacement/alternative for the Supersonic but I
need a 9.5 sail to enjoy my GO in July.
Guy
In article <7jicl2$cge$1...@nnrp1.deja.com>,
sail...@ameritel.net
gu...@my-deja.com wrote:
> My personal reason would be that there are not many 9.5 no-cams and
> that both the Sailworks Retro and HotSail Stealth have been rated (on
> 6 or 6.5 sails) as a bit weak in light air. So please tell me that I
>am wrong and what I should buy instead of a 9.5 Naish Stealth.
So, you read a magazine article that rated the Retro and the Hot
Stealth, in a 6.0 or 6.5 m2 size, as lacking low end power.
Did the magazine happen to tell you what other 6.0-6.5 m2's they were
comparing these to?
The trouble with magazine tests is that they don't always compare apples
to apples.
Making a statement about the entire line of Retro's/Hot Stealth's/Naish
Stealth's based on comparing 6.5's is ludicrous to say the least.
Except in Vintage Races where there's a sail size/sailor weight limit,
who sails 6.5's in lite underpowered conditions? Perhaps beginners, who
really don't want or need terrific performance, but other than these
folks, the rest of the world uses larger sails.
It's really interesting that I seem to sail away from nearly everyone in
the Vintage Race fleet on a 6.5 Retro, on a very consistent basis in
very lite to moderate windspeeds.
This indicates to me that the Retro does indeed have very good low end
power in the 6.5 size range.
I haven't sailed the Hot Stealth or the Naish Stealth, so I don't have
an opinion on those, but some of the reps and other guys here on the
group have very consistently praised the lite wind power of both.
Do we know if the magazine folks used an adjustable outhaul??
That's worth a 30% performance gain in a large no-cam sail!
Do they really know how to rig these sails, or did they pull every
wrinkle out of the luff sleeve like a race sail, completely destroying
the ability for the luff to open up properly.
Was this magazines "lite air test" in a place like Florida?
If not, please tell me how one objectively evaluates 8.0-10.0 meter
sails in a place like Maui where the wind never gets down to 7-10 knots.
Oh, you don't have the answers to these questions? Hmmmmm? Neither do I!
This is why I take all magazine tests with a high degree of skepticism.
I give them credit for trying very hard, to be both objective AND
maintaining a good relationship with their advertisers.
Granted, one would have to spend all of their time testing boards and
sails and moving about from venue to venue to really objectively
evaluate each sail/board in the conditions it was designed for.
Go try some of these sails, and make your own judgement.
Just because the mag said they "thought" the no-cam 6.5's did not have
really good low end power has absolutely nothing whatsoever to do with
how a large no-cam will work on your Starboads Go with you sailing it,
at your local venue.
If you live in the Eastern half of the USA, there will be a Sailworks
demo tour covering pretty much the entire coast and inland this summer.
If you belong to a club, have them contact me and maybe we can put
together a demo at your local launch. Then you can try some really
big Retro's.
> I really welcome all suggestions. At 95kg I have 5.5 and 7.4 no-cams.
>Neil Pryde is coming up with a replacement/alternative for the
Supersonic but I need a 9.5 sail to enjoy my GO in July.
So, get the 9.0 Supersonic, a half a meter will not make that much
difference.
Or get a 9.5 Retro/Hot Stealth/Naish Stealth.
The Windwing Synthesis is also very powerful in this size range and
allows you to go no-cam or as many as 3 cams in the same sail. I think
there's even a 10.0 Synthesis.
Hope this helps!
ECavan6070
>If you live in the Eastern half of the USA, there will be a Sailworks
>demo tour covering pretty much the entire coast and inland this summer.
>If you belong to a club, have them contact me and maybe we can put
>together a demo at your local launch. Then you can try som
Hey Roger.
Would the tour consider moving as far inland as Charlotte, North Carolina? We
have an active club here, and I think that we might be able to come up with a
good turnout.
Thanks, Dave.
Bill Hansen
>My personal reason would be that there are not many 9.5 no-cams and
>that both the Sailworks Retro and HotSail Stealth have been rated (on
>6 or 6.5 sails) as a bit weak in light air. So please tell me that I am
>wrong and what I should buy instead of a 9.5 Naish Stealth. I really
>welcome all suggestions.
Both US Mags (WindSurfing & American Windsurfer) have test review articles
coming out next month on large sails in the 9-10 meter range. There are
several excellent alternatives to the ones mentioned in this thread...
- Bill
------------------------
William D. Hansen
Sail Design/R&D
http://www.windwing.com
------------------------
Ihav2work
I've sailed both cambered and camless sails in light wind (5-15kts) on the same
board. Cams make a BIG(not miniscule) difference in pointing upwind,
especially in the lulls.. Cams allow you to rig the sail full for extra
power=early planing. Cams allow your sail to fly better(once you've cleared
it) on lightwind waterstarts. Cams reduce arm strain in lightwind(when
unhooked and trying to plane)because gusts transfer directly to forward thrust.
I've found that I can plane earlier on SMALLER cambered sails than on BIGGER
camless sails. As for weight, sure camless sails are lighter but when I factor
in the above----the difference is immaterial. NOTE: these are
MYexperiences.....perhaps I was sailing incorrectly with the camless
sails....who knows....I think they're GREAT in planing winds because they fill
out and gain their airfoil shape ala the battens. Afterall, windsurfing sails
are already pretty inefficient due to the fact they're not complete airfoils
like Hanglider foils which have TWO sides=more than 30% more efficient in terms
of lift......I admit cambered sails can be a pain in the ass to get out of the
water for waterstarts and uphauls.......camless sails are very worthwhile but I
feel they're more valuable in the 6.5 and down range. That's just my
opinion.......I'm sure I'll catch some heat for this post but these are my
actual experiences---my original post stands
Brian Mckenzie
coast or on your way to Charlotte.
Brian
Brian Mckenzie
wrote:
>
>There are
>several excellent alternatives to the ones mentioned in this thread...
> - Bill
I'll go ahead and mention one, the Windwing Synthesis. Finally been
able to spend a little time on an 8.3 and its great! To reemphasize
what Roger mentioned, you can run it with or without cams, what more
could ya ask for! Check it out!
My good friend has the Supersonic 8.1, so maybe he'll chime in and
give his $.02. Dwight, you listening?
Brian
Concept
http://www.wnywindsurf.com/
http://reality.sgi.com/csp/twc/index.html
Thomas Degel
sail...@ameritel.net wrote:
> In article <7jjdv8$oc5$1...@nnrp1.deja.com>,
> gu...@my-deja.com wrote:
> > My personal reason would be that there are not many 9.5 no-cams and
<sniiiiiiip>
Roger is right: Arrange a try-out with your local shop and decide for
yourself. However, I myself has been looking into big no-cams over the past
few months, and through tests, discussions and other I don't see big no-cams
being weak in light wind. I am going for a test run as soon as my knees work
again.
gu...@my-deja.com
In both cases the reviews were from Windsurfing magazine quoted in the
web page of the manufacturer. The french magazine WIND had the same
comment on the Retro.
I fully agree with your points that a review on a sail size does not
hold for other sizes and that the reviewer may not have tuned the sail
properly and so on, which is why I was asking for additional advice.
I may buy the 9.5 retro although I believe you indicated that it only
marginally planes earlier than the 8.5 raceboard version.
Does anybody know how to get the July (next) issues of Windsurfing and
American Windsurfer in France (where I live currently) ?
Thanks,
Guy
In article <7jjibb$q89$1...@nnrp1.deja.com>,
sail...@ameritel.net wrote:
> The trouble with magazine tests is that they don't always compare
apples
> to apples.
> Making a statement about the entire line of Retro's/Hot
Stealth's/Naish
> Stealth's based on comparing 6.5's is ludicrous to say the least.
>
Wolfgang Soergel
>
> In article <7jjdv8$oc5$1...@nnrp1.deja.com>,
> gu...@my-deja.com wrote:
> > My personal reason would be that there are not many 9.5 no-cams and
> > 6 or 6.5 sails) as a bit weak in light air. So please tell me that I
> >am wrong and what I should buy instead of a 9.5 Naish Stealth.
>
> Stealth, in a 6.0 or 6.5 m2 size, as lacking low end power.
> Did the magazine happen to tell you what other 6.0-6.5 m2's they were
> comparing these to?
>
> to apples.
> Making a statement about the entire line of Retro's/Hot Stealth's/Naish
> Stealth's based on comparing 6.5's is ludicrous to say the least.
a 9.X could be a completely different sail from a 6.X, even if it's the
same "model". Just scaling one template won't get you far, i'd
guess you need different prototypes, resulting in possibly different
sail behaviour, although the may look similar.
> Except in Vintage Races where there's a sail size/sailor weight limit,
> who sails 6.5's in lite underpowered conditions? Perhaps beginners, who
> really don't want or need terrific performance, but other than these
> folks, the rest of the world uses larger sails.
Now that's where i disagree. This "big is everything" thing is not
the way ALL sailors go. I just know too many sailors often locked
to gusty inland lakes part of the year who have long mastered
basic shortboard technique such as jibing (hence no need to
practice jibes) who nevertheless do not own sails bigger than 6.5
Around here it's very rare to have consistant light winds which
are not enough to get a 6.5 going but enough for consistant
planning on something huge, at least for average weight sailors.
No contest that big boys need big gear. But there are enough
people, and not just beginners but often quite the opposite,
who are interested in the performance of 6.5ish sails in
conditions from barely any wind to just holding on.
I (as a lightweight of 62 kg, ok) just changed my biggest
sail from a 6.5 Spectro to a 6.3 North Volcano: The thing
planes just as early as everyone, at least if you see the
gust comming. The handling (ok with a light boom and mast)
is just incredible and i would not want to change it for
anything bigger. Plus i can now use my biggest sail on the
waveboard.
[..]
>
> Do we know if the magazine folks used an adjustable outhaul??
> That's worth a 30% performance gain in a large no-cam sail!
Now i know enough recreational sailors who wouldn't want to be
bothered by another gadget like an adjustable outhaul. Fine
for those who want and for racing but i'd prefer to be able to
buy sails which i trim once on the beach and then work for
a wide variety of conditions.
> Do they really know how to rig these sails, or did they pull every
> wrinkle out of the luff sleeve like a race sail, completely destroying
> the ability for the luff to open up properly.
Look at the beaches and how the sail of Joe Average is trimmed.
I'd assume that mag testers know at least better..
[...]
>
> Go try some of these sails, and make your own judgement.
> Just because the mag said they "thought" the no-cam 6.5's did not have
> really good low end power has absolutely nothing whatsoever to do with
> how a large no-cam will work on your Starboads Go with you sailing it,
> at your local venue.
Amen.
[..]
Wolfgang
--
Wolfgang Soergel
Lehrstuhl fuer Nachrichtentechnik I / phone: ++49-9131-85 2 7781
Universitaet Erlangen-Nuernberg / fax: ++49-9131-85 2 8849
Cauerstrasse 7 / email:
wsoe...@nt.e-technik.uni-erlangen.de
D-91058 Erlangen, GERMANY /
http://www.nt.e-technik.uni-erlangen.de/~wsoergel
Jonathan M Richardson
: Roger is right: Arrange a try-out with your local shop and decide for
: yourself. However, I myself has been looking into big no-cams over the past
: few months, and through tests, discussions and other I don't see big no-cams
: being weak in light wind. I am going for a test run as soon as my knees work
: again.
I must chime in. I have been racing One Design and open class for 5
years, making me a novice compared with many other racers. What I have
learned is that sailmakers had light (<10kt) winds completely figured
out 10 years ago. I now sail an 8.5 Gaastra Flow 3X and I have been
passed by sails that look so old I just had to cry. The thing is that
you want a fairly loose and baggy sail in light winds. A stiff luff
pocket and floppy leach are totally useless in <10kts, particularly as
the wind dies down to <5kts. If you want to see the state-of-the-art
lightwind sail just look at the One Design sail which was designed in
the early 80's. It is an excellent light wind sail that is pumpable
and tunable. It has (3?) cams BTW. As the wind picks up, the sail
loses its shape and is not as easy to handle as a newer design. In
very light winds wher pumping is key the good One Design sailors will
be right up with the front fleet.
I wonder if Bill Hansen can addres this issue: a sail designed for
course racing in 0-15 kts.
Cheers,
Jonathan (US233)
Charles Livaudais
Wolfgang Soergel <wsoe...@nt.e-technik.uni-erlangen.de> wrote:
>
> Now that's where i disagree. This "big is everything" thing is not
> the way ALL sailors go. I just know too many sailors often locked
> to gusty inland lakes part of the year who have long mastered
> basic shortboard technique such as jibing (hence no need to
> practice jibes) who nevertheless do not own sails bigger than 6.5
> Around here it's very rare to have consistant light winds which
> are not enough to get a 6.5 going but enough for consistant
> planning on something huge, at least for average weight sailors.
Your post illustrates the perils of making blanket statements
about the appropriateness of windsurfing gear. On the east
coast of the US, where Roger Jackson (and I) sail, there are
many days for the average-sized sailor when a large sail and board
will rip while a 6.5 will slog. Such days are, unfortunately, the
majority of sailing days at the inland lake closest to my home.
Where I can't agree with Roger (can't disagree either - I
simply don't know) is the issue of whether camless sails are
better for the inland lake sailor. Planing through lulls and stability
in gusts are of major importance at our little lake, as is upwind
ability. I'm told Roger is arranging a demo day for our local club
(thank you!), so perhaps we'll get to see...if the wind cooperates.
BTW, did anyone answer the original poster's question of
8.1 v. 9.4 Supersonics? :-)
Charles Livaudais
sail...@ameritel.net
gu...@my-deja.com wrote:
> In both cases the reviews were from Windsurfing magazine quoted in the
> web page of the manufacturer. The french magazine WIND had the same
> comment on the Retro.
Well, as ihav2work so succinctly stated, each of sails is different
conditions, and what may be good lite air performance for me, on the
Thomas Marginal Planing Board (MPB) trying to plane in < 4 knots of true
windspeed in the Sound behind Hatteras Island, may have little to do
with his experience sailing at his local lake. That's one reason why I'm
so interested in doing the Sailworks Demo Tour. I hope to learn some
things I can pass along to the Sailworks designer about what works for
sailors at different locations, and what doesn't.
> I fully agree with your points that a review on a sail size does not
> hold for other sizes and that the reviewer may not have tuned the sail
> properly and so on, which is why I was asking for additional advice.
I hope you questions were adequately addressed.
>
> I may buy the 9.5 retro although I believe you indicated that it only
> marginally planes earlier than the 8.5 raceboard version.
Yes, but I must qualify this. The 9.5 Retro (Slalom) rigged full, planes
a little earlier than the 8.5 Retro Raceboard, but we are talking
planing in LESS than 5 knots true windspeed.
In 6 knots and above, where I have actually raced both sails, the 9.5
gives me more range as it's designed for the top to twist off.
The 8.5 Raceboard is a lower aspect design which does not twist off, but
the lower aspect ratio and longer boom provide more useable POWER for
racing in lite conditions on a longboard. It's also a little lighter in
weight. The Retro Slalom is more appropriate for Superplaners, and the
Retro Raceboard is more appropriate for longboards.
I'm hoping to find conditions this weekend to test the 98 8.5 Raceboard
against the 99 8.5 Raceboard and the 99 9.5 Retro Slalom. I will try to
do the tests on both the F2 380 Race Longboard and a Superplaner
shortboard. I've tried to do this before, but the weather has not been
cooperating.
>
> Does anybody know how to get the July (next) issues of Windsurfing and
> American Windsurfer in France (where I live currently) ?
I think they can give you an international subscription.
--
sailquik US 7011 Ph.(301)872-9459 (In So. MD)
LvL I Instuctor (252)995-3204 (In Avon, NC)
F2/MPB/Starboards/Sailworks/Tectonics/True
Ames/HPL/Kokatat/Da Kine
gmart...@my-deja.com
sails and I use both frequently with my Thommen
305. In the last year I have also taken the time
to make numerous on-the-water windspeed
measurements during my sailing sessions. I weigh
185# and am an advanced intermediate sailor,
having sailed the gorge and Puget Sound area for
10 years. The difference between the 8.0 and the
9.5 in upper and lower end is about 3-4 mph. With
the 9.5, I can pump onto a plane at 8 mph but I
can only sustain planing upwind in 10 mph. With
the 8.0, it takes 13 mph. On the upper end, I have
sailed both sails up to 20 mph, although by choice
I would sail a 6.5 or 5.5, depending on the water
conditions. The 8.0 can be "tweaked" such that 20
mph is actually comfortable in a straight line.
The 9.5 feels overpowering in these conditions but
is doable when the wind is 17mph. As expected the
9.5 is slightly more work to uphaul, waterstart,
jibe and tack, but very doable for someone of my
size and ability. The difference is especially
true with jibing, where I find it difficult to
plane through jibes with the 9.5 because the sail
flip is so slow. I like to sail whenever I have
the chance and the 9.5 gets used about 5 times
more often than the 8.0. This past month, I had 8
planing shortboard sessions on our local lake, and
I used the 9.5 7 times and the 8.0 once. My
opinion; if you want to plane as many days as
possible and you frequently get days in the 10-13
mph range, get the larger sail. With the 8.0, you
will still sail but your schlogging time will
definatel