Problems w/Chinook Triple Clamp Carbon Formula Boom. Anyone else?
Windinmysails
ago. "Expensive" I thought but worth it. My opinion may be changing.
I've broken the head and three boom arms. In Chinook's defense, they
did replace the head and two of the arms under warranty. But now that
the third arm just broke, I'm becoming increasingly hesitant to venture
out with it again.
My weight is approximately 190 lbs, and last Sunday I rigged an 11 sq
meter Retro. The wind had built to the point where I probably could have
sailed my 9.5 or even 8 but it was on the Niagara River, which sometimes
can be gusty, so I rigged for the lulls. Mildly overpowered, heading out
on a reach......SNAP!!!. Turned around & sailed the good side back in.
40 degree F air, 32 degree F water. Each time that the boom has broken,
it has been in colder temperatures.
Is this normal? Is this a design flaw of Chinook Carbon Formula Booms?
Their website says "The stuff you can trust". I'm no longer so sure.
The description for their Carbon Booms says "Very stiff strong and
dependable". I'm not so sure.
For the price of the Carbon Formula, I could buy FOUR Aluminum Formula
booms. I was told the Carbon was far stronger, stiffer, lighter, and
would lock the draft better in a large sail. After this experience, I
may have to rethink this and take my chances with Aluminum and it may
not be Chinook, even though my booms in the past were Chinook.
What are your experiences? Are other Carbon Booms as fragile? I thought
far better and stronger Formula sailors regularly sailed overpowered
on Carbon booms with no ill effects. What do you think?
Thanks for any feedback from other windsurfers.
Craig.
Dan Weiss
Hey Craig:
I can't speak to Chinook's carbon booms, but basic tube failure of any
carbon boom is extremely rare. It's true that older FW-sized carbon
booms did fail at the boom head when the giant sails first appeared,
but that issue been resolved for the most part by redesigning. You
don't indicate where on the arm the boom snapped. I can only
speculate that the lamination was bad, or that the boom snapped at a
joint in the arm under the grip -if Chinook uses multi-piece arms,
that is.
Front end piece/ clamp tend to fail more regularly, but still not that
often.
I use Fiberspar FW booms and have experienced only one failure with an
older design, and that happened by going over the falls with an 11.0
(don't ask). The extension snapped on the tail piece and subsequently
cracked the tube as it was wrenched out.
Alu booms simply don't work well in sails over 9.0 for one basic
reason: flex. They are not stiff enough to control the sail and
preserve tuning. Yes, you can go windsurfing with a huge alu boom
without ruining your day. But carbon booms allow the large sails to
interact properly with the mast because no excess outhaul is needed to
compensate for boom flex. This means that the downhaul setting
remains proper for the conditions and not compromised by excess
outhaul tension. Remember, OH and DH work together.
From what I hear, the Maui Sails carbon boom is da bomb. Super-stiff
with a great clamp. Like I said, I like my Fiberspars. Maybe not as
stiff, but good enough for me.
(Full disclosure: The people at Fiberspar were very kind to me when I
was a young man trying hard to win races. I try to return the favor
now that I'm an older young man by honestly but positively reporting
my views about FS products that I continue to use.) That said, the
guys @ Chinook are great and I think work hard to make killer
products. Caleb posts on rec dot and is a stand-up dude. I'm sure he
will do his best to take care of you.
Craig Goudie
a "smaller" 9.5 retro on a Gulftech carbon boom, and for 1 season,
no issues. I did break the head on my small carbon Hawaiian ProLine,
on a 4.7 day at Doug's, but I don't fault the boom, and HPL was most
gracious in providing me a new head, even though I was out of warranty
(it's nice to live where they make HPL carbons).
I have a lot of Chinook alu booms, and they've always brought me back,
I am a big fan, but I don't know their carbon booms. With 3 failures,
at 190 lbs (I weigh about 180), it seems like there may be something
wrong with the geometry of your boom, or maybe with the way the
tubes get replaced. Are you doing the replacement?
-Craig
a_m...@yahoo.com
no direct ownership experience with the Triple Clamp FW boom. I've
been racing large gear since 99, so I've seen my share of boom
trouble; aluminum usually doesn't do the job for the big stuff. For
the Formula Experience class, they mandate aluminum as a cost savings
measure, and most of the racers I've talked grumble about that, as
their math works out to having to replace a boom that's half as
expensive as a decent carbon boom at least every two seasons
(meanwhile, at 210# and lots of use, I have an HPL carbon boom that's
been going strong for well over six seasons...).
Some general observations:
- Aluminum tends to gradually fatigue over time; carbon tends to go
strong for much longer but then if it fails, it fails in a somewhat
binary fashion (meaning something snaps all the way as opposed to
getting noodly first).
- Carbon booms and masts, if well treated (i.e., avoiding impact) can
last a really long time (there are exceptions, especially with race
masts where some manufacturers had issues with masts that were simply
under-spec'd given the amount of load and luff curve in their sails).
- Carbon booms tend to have a weak spot at the front end tube to boom
arm connection; if things break, that's usually the spot. This was
especially pronounced in the early Fiberspar booms (they've beefed up
since then; see Dan's comments on that, and do a google groups search
to find a lot of discussion on reinforcement techniques that can, with
the help of a bit of carbon wrapping, make even the original 99/00/01
Fiberspar front ends reasonably bomber)
Some slightly more specific observations:
- Almost all carbon booms on the market use a carbon front end (think
a u-shaped piece of carbon tubing) that's glued into the boom arms.
Then there's a front end attachment piece that's bolted onto that
front end tube and serves to attach the boom to the mast.
- Chinook went a different route - their boom arms attach to a molded
plastic front tube/triple clamp assembly. I don't know why they did,
but I believe that's why their booms, in formula sizes, are less stiff
than their competition (based on my subjective experience sailing one
and comparing it to my HPL and an older, pre-John Chao Gulftech I had
at the time). One could surmise that the flex from the front end
produces stress and point loads on the arms; one might also surmise
that it would reduce risk of failure at the joint (as the front end
might take the load in more forgiving ways). How the overall trade-off
works out can only be figured out by (a) getting a materials engineer
to do an analysis including destructive testing or (b) doing some
analysis on warranty claims. So on my part, that's all idle
speculation.
- I've been using HPL booms (both the older, slightly lighter design,
as well as the newer, slightly heavier/beefier one) with great success
and longevity. Haven't broken one of those yet (and I sail hard, and a
lot, and almost always overpowered). Your mileage may vary, but that
of my buddies who use the same booms doesn't seem to (they all have
about the same track record). So if you look at what an HPL will cost
you (http://www.sailworks.com/web/category.cfm?category=3), and you
amortize that out over 7 or 8 seasons, it starts to look like one of
the more favorable investments in this sport once you've gotten over
the initial sticker shock. BTW, don't expect to find too many good
used booms around - because these things are pretty durable, most
racers keep theirs for a very long time and don't cycle through them
for periodic replacement the way they do with sails, boards, and even
masts.
- If you're hellbent on getting an aluminum boom, check with Bruce
Peterson at Sailworks; he's done a fair amount of testing on the big
Retros with alu booms (all as part of kitting out the US Juniors for
Formula Experience). I seem to remember that there was one of those
booms that stood out above the rest, but can't recall which one; he'll
probably tell you to go carbon, though, with pretty much the same
rationale I gave above.
Glad that you've been able to extract yourself from all of those
incidents without getting hypothermic. I had a boom break on me well
over a mile offshore when slalom sailing in January a couple years
ago, and while the temps were a bit more reasonable than what you
faced, it certainly was giving me pause.
Cheers,
-Andreas
sailin fool
Craig,
Sorry to hear about your boom problems! Any equipment failure is no
fun.
I agree with most of the sentiment posted here - well made carbon
booms are very strong & are the way to go if you can swing it. Our
Formula boom is no exception.
If you feel the boom should not have broken, I recommend you go
through the proper channels - either to the shop you bought from or
through the contact link on the website: http://www.chinooksailing.com/web03/contact.html
I am sure they will help you out.
Happy sailing!
Caleb
Windinmysails
Each time the arms snapped, it has been near the harness lines and I was
hooked in. Thanks for your reply. I'm not sure which way to go. If
other manufacturers carbon holds up better, I may try, but if not it's
an expensive piece of equipment to gamble on.
Craig Goudie:
I also have a lot of Chinook Aluminum booms and I've been very satisfied
with them. I have broken them, but they didn't really owe me anything
for the use I had from them. Yes I did the replacement on the carbon
boom arms, but I really don't think they can be installed wrong. There
is a tab molded into the arms that fits into a slot in the head. Install
the screws and the job is done.
Andreas:
Ironically, because there is so much ice in Lake Erie right now, it is
not able to be sailed near Buffalo. While the Niagara River is still
32F, many times the wind will blow the ice to the east or west branch
and we can sail the other. This has helped because its only about a mile
wide, and I usually don't go that far away from shore in colder temps.
I have never sailed HPL Carbon, but I like the double pin system. Does
it hold in all conditions? Many times I find the pins were opening on
the Chinook Carbon. So much so that I often taped them closed with
electrical tape. Thanks for the advice. If I do replace w/Aluminum,
I'll give Bruce Peterson a call. I love his sails.
Caleb: Nice handle- Sailin Fool. I did ask the shop where I bought the
Carbon Boom from. He said it was out of warranty & rightly so, as it's
a couple years old. I still do not feel this boom been a good purchase,
as it has broken FOUR TIMES. Three boom arms and one head. Does the fact
that the pins often work themselves open while sailing (unless I tape
them closed), have anything to do with these repeated failures?
wsurfn
It is several years old (first generation triple clamp head). Still
going strong, and I would buy it again. I have owned HPL,Gulftech as
well.
My formula boom is an '04 HPL with a MS boom head. I like the Maui
sails booms too, but they are not bombproof. I had a friend one snap
sailing only a month old.
Customer service at Chinook is excellent. Contact them directly.
Brian Sangeorzan
FWIW, I'm #210 and I've also snapped two carbon booms right at the harness
line connection, although one was during a grande slam (in which I also
broke a rib - not carbon, but a calcium alloy). These were older FS, not
chinook. When you look at the tube wall thickness and consider the point
loading by the straps, I think they should add some wall thickness in that
area (also where the bending moment is greater). However, I'd never use an
aluminum boom on a larger sail - they're simply way to soft in gusty
conditions and will break too (I've broken several Al rental booms), albeit
with a little warning sometimes.
Good luck with the replacement. If you can afford it, stay with the carbon.
Brian
"Windinmysails" <Cr...@bogus.net> wrote in message
news:ndZJj.3550$Ug4.1001@trndny01...
Cliff Frost
in much colder temps (water+atmosphere) than anyone I've heard of on recdot.
I wonder if that's also why you have problems with the pins slipping out.
I've never seen a formula carbon boom break at the harness lines but I'm not
that expert. Have others?
-Cliff
Windinmysails
> My guess is that it's the cold that's causing the problem. You're sailing
> in much colder temps (water+atmosphere) than anyone I've heard of on recdot.
>
> I wonder if that's also why you have problems with the pins slipping out.
>
> I've never seen a formula carbon boom break at the harness lines but I'm not
> that expert. Have others?
>
> -Cliff
>
Cliff:
The gang on Long Island, NY sail in some pretty cold temps. I'd like to
meet them someday and get better at my wave sailing attempts. I don't
think they usually take an 11 Sq meter out in cold temps though. I
really don't know if the cold is a factor in Carbon Booms breaking or
not. I'd like to know. It would influence my decision. I sail in cold
temps not because I like cold but because I like to sail. It was a
weekend and I hadn't sailed in a while. Funny thing, two days later I
was sailing a 4.0 overpowered. Thanks for any input.
Craig.