Dynafiber Mast Breakage?!
Bill B.
Last weekend, I had a brand new (first time on the water) Tsunami Surf
that broke by getting worked by knee to waist high whitewater at Ego
Beach in Hatteras?! I had the mast parallel to the beach so there was
no possiblitiy of sticking it in the bar, and it broke when the white
water hit. I also broke another brand new one last fall at the Hatteras
lighthouse, but conditions there were legit with head to logo high surf.
I've been using No Limtiz with no problems except a tight furrel that
made my two piece a one piece. Powerex is also an excellent mast that I
have been using for years... Only one I have ever broke was during
Hurricane Fran in 1996 when I washed up on the rock jetty on the south
side of Oregon Inlet... again a legit break!! : ))
Are Dynafiber junk or what??
bb
Sent via Deja.com http://www.deja.com/
Share what you know. Learn what you don't.
Bill B.
>
> Are Dynafiber junk or what??
Sorry for the Dynafiber blast, folks at Dynafiber! Like I said though,
I was suprised that the Tsunami Surf broke in such small conditions. I
guess it was a rare defect in the particular mast I was using. I still
have the top, so I could test a new bottom?!
see ya,
NLW TFW NM
sail often in surf.
Mike \m/
Michael Brown
almost bombproof. Some of the masts even came with 5 year prorated guarantees
against breakage. As I understand it ,after buying Seatrend and shifting all
manufacturing to the Czech Republic there were a number of legal battles over
some issues of selling off parts of the company and its technology. The current
Dynafiber's relationship to the old Dynafiber is minimal, other than the name.
D & J
in the surf. I'm in Kure Beach NC. Too bad were not closer. I'd love to find
a home for my bottom piece.
Bill B. <bbel...@my-deja.com> wrote in message
news:7jp7aj$s8g$1...@nnrp1.deja.com...
Tauras
NLW TFW NM wrote in message
<19990610205355...@ng-fp1.aol.com>...
>Interesting (Dynafiber's evolution). Maybe I had better hang onto my cherry
>U.S.-made Tsunami .... or sell it for a fat price.
>
>Maybe that's why many Oregon dealeres tell me that the NoLimitz Skinny
>one-piece is THE mast to use when durability in the surf is paramount.
Not quite, dealers want to sell masts, give those skinny noodles a decade to
prove out. The gray late model reinforced one piece Ampros are the only near
indestructo wave masts on this planet. Why because those that sail ALOT on
the coast can't wear them out. That's why Ampro went Chapter 11, they got
the combination down and killed their own market after getting worked trying
to go lighter... Sure they are heavy but given the level of use I got from
mine its down to less than $ 0.20/use and I'm over 200 lbs, like to always
sail overpowered, and am know to eat it on many a wave after 15 years of
sailing the California Coast. I might retire mine at 750 sessions since I
got a new OLD Ampro to replace it for free... seems old tech is THE tech for
durability. New stuff in general is built to wear out, (UV unstable
monofilms designed to degrade??? and eggshell boards, heal ding, no charge)
its the only way the industry can keep in business these days.
Ed Scott
I've got about 120 sessions now on my Powerex 400 skinny (2-piece) over two
seasons. No worse the wear after pogoing it off the bottom a couple times at
Waddell, Davenport, and Natural Bridges. Don't know if it'll last 750, but I
sure saw a lot of skinnies at the Waddell Creek Challenge on Sunday (e.g.
Nathan Merchant). I know these guys get new equipment every year, but I was
gratified to learn that I wasn't the only skinny geek out there. Otoh, the
crappy Chinook Powerhaul extension I use with that mast did fail about a mile
offshore Santa Cruz last September. Chinook replaced it, no problemo, though.
As for flotation that many complain about (yes, I mean you WARDOG), that's a
valid complaint, you just gotta learn to clear that thing when the set is
jacking up in front of you.
I'll let you know when I hit 750, if I get that far.
-Ed (Windwing vinyl windows, ASD epoxy boards)
NLW TFW NM
U.S.-made Tsunami .... or sell it for a fat price.
Maybe that's why many Oregon dealeres tell me that the NoLimitz Skinny
one-piece is THE mast to use when durability in the surf is paramount.
Mike \m/
NLW TFW NM
prove out. "
But the same dealers who say the Skinny is so tough recommend other brands,
espscially the Powerex, for anything but serious surf sailing.
I had a pile of Gray waves ... still have two and can buy them for $40 .... but
the WEIGHT ... and that flex-bottom bend!
Mike \m/
RedKen2
friday mast from every company. What you need to value is how the company
takes care of the Warranty and not slam them in front of everyone that can read
E-Mail. Talk to who you got it from (dealer ) and get it warrantied if valid.
If you got it used there could have been a time when the mast struck somthing
that you were un aware of and was weak in that area. I have worked for
Powerex for the last 6 years, I was using there product before I worked for
them. I used them because they took care of any warranty problem it seemed on
the spot and the dealer dealt with it so didn't need to wait around for an
approval.
Bottom line almost all mast are really good and it is who takes care of you
and not the name so much any more
Ken H
Powerex
Wolfgang Soergel
>
> Dynafiber was a very different company a few years ago. Made in the Gorge and
> almost bombproof. Some of the masts even came with 5 year prorated guarantees
> against breakage. As I understand it ,after buying Seatrend and shifting all
> manufacturing to the Czech Republic there were a number of legal battles over
> some issues of selling off parts of the company and its technology. The current
> Dynafiber's relationship to the old Dynafiber is minimal, other than the name.
>
Technofiber
in the Czech Republic. There is still "Dynafiber" printed all over the
mast however and the braided construction is still the same. I do have
older
Tsunami Surfs and ones from this year. No problem ever other than
quite tight ferrules (mast easily sticks if you're not carefull.
Bot otoh, tight fit minimizes breackage problems here).
The newer ones do have some more carbon content (45 % right now)
and seem ligheter and quicker to me -- i'll sell my older ones
in favor of them.
I do also have a new XR 95 from this year -- great mast but a bit
heavier than most other masts in this percentage range.
Maybe the masts you get in the states are different but
besides that i'd go and exchange the broken one on warranty.
Wolfgang
--
Wolfgang Soergel
Lehrstuhl fuer Nachrichtentechnik I / phone: ++49-9131-85 2 7781
Universitaet Erlangen-Nuernberg / fax: ++49-9131-85 2 8849
Cauerstrasse 7 / email:
wsoe...@nt.e-technik.uni-erlangen.de
D-91058 Erlangen, GERMANY /
http://www.nt.e-technik.uni-erlangen.de/~wsoergel
Tauras
NLW TFW NM wrote in message
>I had a pile of Gray waves ... still have two and can buy them for $40 ....
but
>the WEIGHT ... and that flex-bottom bend!
Your just using them with the wrong sails ;)
As for the weight, sure they weigh alot but once the sail is powered the
weight translates into inercia, those new fangled light mast just don't have
the mass to add to the down hill freight train effect ;)
Recently picked up a windwind 4.7 interface for '96, damn have to run it on
a vintage killwell 2 piece since it has a lower OD than the gray Ampro...
sail takes loads of downhaul and rigs with some ugly wrinkles down the CE of
the sail out to mid leech. But it works well when overpowered but anything
approaching just powered enough and its a very low power sail. Seems new
sails are designed to sail overpowered. Maybe a new mast would help but
given the cost of one of those new masts its not in my near term future.
Tauras
Ed Scott wrote in message <37609C8D...@best.com>...
>Tauras my friend-
>
>I've got about 120 sessions now on my Powerex 400 skinny (2-piece) over two
>seasons. No worse the wear after pogoing it off the bottom a couple times
at
>Waddell, Davenport, and Natural Bridges. Don't know if it'll last 750, but
I
>sure saw a lot of skinnies at the Waddell Creek Challenge on Sunday (e.g.
>Nathan Merchant). I know these guys get new equipment every year, but I
was
>gratified to learn that I wasn't the only skinny geek out there. Otoh, the
>crappy Chinook Powerhaul extension I use with that mast did fail about a
mile
>offshore Santa Cruz last September. Chinook replaced it, no problemo,
though.
Maybe they got the skinny design down finally but what's the advantage
unless sails are designed for that diameter. Skinny means they have to put
way more material in the mast to maintain the same stiffness as a normal
diameter mast. Is the weight savings significant (over 20%) to justify the
cost of new mast base and boom?
Skinny to me, smell to much like a fad for those that buy(or get given) new
equipment just about yearly... Only time will tell but its good to hear some
of that skinny stuff lasts, round here skinny has been producing swimmies...
nobody likes to swim whitey infested waters due to equipment failure... back
to work so I can sail in the PM!
Tauras
http://www.slonet.org/~tsulaiti/
WARDOG
Ed Scott wrote:
As for flotation that many complain about (yes, I mean you WARDOG), that's a valid complaint, you just gotta learn to clear that thing when the set is jacking up in front of you
First point; No mast is "unbreakable"......I have seen Jalama break every
kind of mast thrown at it ,including Taurus' beloved Gray Ampro........
Another point to consider with skinnies is how well they will work
with your year,brand, or model of sail.(I try not to "complain", that gets
misconstrued as bitching and whining
and I don't get bit by the same dog twice; if you do it's your own
damn fault!)
I know Bill, Blake, Bruce and other sail designers have their theories,
but from my personal experience, skinnies feel "too noodly" to me....in
other words, too much "action"
at the head of the sail. 1999 (last year's sails) was a pivotal year
in sail design,
aspect ratios changed which impacted mast selection. 460's became essentially
obsolete
overnight; much to the delight of mast manufacturers, many of us were
"forced" to buy
smaller masts; I "had" to get a couple of 400's and a 370! Because
of luff curve changes
and lower aspect ratios we have to go back to the drawing board (actually
the aquatic
laboratory, on "optimal" mast selection. From my experience talking
shop with most sailors, it seems that masts are a lot like fins, you keep
them until they break, so that
slows down the sailors' knowledge curve. I attempt to try as much gear
as anyone will let me, but apart from a handfull of sailors at the top
of the food chain, very few sailors
have the opportunity to rig their sails on a variety of masts.
Bottom line; it's been over a decade since George Greenough, a native
Santa Barbarian
and a man I respect and admire immensely, invented the "skinny", but
the jury is still out.
In the interim, "fatties" have become "middies" and that is where I
am at (everything in moderation.....well, almost everything!). Time will
tell in the performance arena.
A technical note; Gulftech pre-peg carbon masts have a greater wall
thickness at the tip than the "skinnies" for those (yes I mean you, Ed)
that are worried about "pogo" breakage. I believe Powerex is the best mast
for the $$$/performance ratio, right now, and they have by far, the best
"no quibble" warranty in the industry.
Dynafiber screwed up going overseas, retooling, and making masts that
broke easily,
leaving many sailors with tops or bottoms that they could not get replacements
for under warranty at any price. Myself included, like I said, I ain't
gonna get bit by the same dog twice!
-WARDOG (Northwave '99 wave sails, Gulftech and Powerex wave masts,Windsurfing
Hawaii booms, harnesses,footsraps, harness lines and accoutrements,
True Ames "WARDOG" wave fins, Bassett tri-fin wave boards, Ford F-250 4X4,
Lance camper,
Chocolate Labrador Retreivers, Cold beer,blah,blah,blah.....yada,yada,yada.......
LET'S GO SAILING!!!!!!!!
"It ain't the size of the dog in the fight, it's the size of the fight
in the dog"
- Boob tube commercial
Ed Scott
Tauras wrote:
> Ed Scott wrote in message <37609C8D...@best.com>...
> >Tauras my friend-
> >
> >I've got about 120 sessions now on my Powerex 400 skinny (2-piece) over two
> >seasons. No worse the wear after pogoing it off the bottom a couple times
> at
> >Waddell, Davenport, and Natural Bridges. Don't know if it'll last 750, but
> I
> >sure saw a lot of skinnies at the Waddell Creek Challenge on Sunday (e.g.
> >Nathan Merchant). I know these guys get new equipment every year, but I
> was
> >gratified to learn that I wasn't the only skinny geek out there. Otoh, the
> >crappy Chinook Powerhaul extension I use with that mast did fail about a
> mile
> >offshore Santa Cruz last September. Chinook replaced it, no problemo,
> though.
>
> Maybe they got the skinny design down finally but what's the advantage
> unless sails are designed for that diameter. Skinny means they have to put
> way more material in the mast to maintain the same stiffness as a normal
> diameter mast. Is the weight savings significant (over 20%) to justify the
> cost of new mast base and boom?
Don't know about the material issue and I don't have the specs in front of me,
but the Powerex 400 skinny (1998 model?) is 90% carbon, and is lighter than the
equivalent 400 standard diameter mast (I think 3.9 lbs total). For me, I just
like the "feel" of the smaller diameter (yes I still grab my mast on occasion
in low-wind manuevers), and the lower mass/lower swing weight makes throwing
the sail around "feel" lighter during such transitions.
As for a different luff sleeve, I know in 1995 Windwing was selling sails esp.
designed for skinnies, though I steered away from them for flexibility's sake.
My current quiver, 1997 Interfaces, are not skinny-specific and all rig with a
snug leading edge against the mast. I guess the luff could be optimized for
the skinny, but as long as there's not an efficiency issue or an inordinate
amount of water getting in the luff, I could care less. I'll let him speak for
himself, but Bill Hansen informs me that he and many Gorge sailors are on
Powerex 400 skinnies on all sails up to their 4.9. Obviously, it's still a
rare bird here on the No. Cal. coast, but you see a few of them in the Bay.
You don't need a new boom, although they are available. The clear PVC 2" or
1.75" washer hose (available at Home Depot) makes a good adapter. You just
have to make sure it's snug on your mast. This may require cutting a little
material off the adapter. You're correct about extensions, but Chinook makes a
skinny adapter kit for about $10 to make a standard extension work with
skinnies. You can still use the extension after it has been adapted with
standard masts. Also, Windsurf Hawaii makes a skinny-specific extension which
a friend uses, but I haven't tried one yet.
As for Dynafiber, I had a skinny braided mast which probably had about 200
sessions or so on it, and it was very durable. I'm very bummed that I lost it,
but alas, it rests comfortably on the bottom on SF Bay right now after a
u-joint separation on a 3.5 day.
>
> Skinny to me, smell to much like a fad for those that buy(or get given) new
> equipment just about yearly... Only time will tell but its good to hear some
> of that skinny stuff lasts, round here skinny has been producing swimmies...
> nobody likes to swim whitey infested waters due to equipment failure... back
> to work so I can sail in the PM!
Tell me about it. Hope I'm not one of the statistics. No sailing for me
today, 3 4.4 sessions at the coast this week and I'm toast.
-Ed
NLW TFW NM
While great warranty service is ultimately vital, durability is still #1 on my
criteria list if/when I sail spots where mast breakage would threaten my life
-- or even just a great 3.2 session.
Mike \m/
Bruce Peterson
ago.
After closing down their Stevenson, WA (Gorge) factory in the fall of
'96, all Dynafiber production shifted to their European factory in
Brno, Czech Republic. This was the sole source of Dynafiber masts
throughout 1997.
For a variety of reasons, the Dyanfiber company failed as a profitable
business venture in early 1998 and was liquidated. The assets of the
Dyanfiber Europe factory were dispersed through two entities: Thermal
Laminates Co. and Technofiber. Thermal Laminates (TLC), the maker of
Seatrend boards, bought the rights to the Dynafiber name and half of
the tooling from the Dynafiber Europe factory. TLC continues to
manufacture and market the Dynafiber masts and booms, albeit under a
significantly altered processes, with varied success.
Technofiber acquired the other half of the Dynafiber Europe factory
and continues to manufacture masts under the *original* Dynafiber
process. For some bizarre reason Technofiber markets their brand of
mast in Europe with the same model names as Dynafiber. This obviously
leads to unending confusion to who actually makes the masts.
For Sailworks users familiar with the association of Dynafiber to the
Sailworks mast program, the Sailworks brand of masts (EPX & XR) are
currently manufactured by Technofiber (since Feb/98) to the original
specifications developed by Sailworks at the Dynafiber/Stevenson
factory in the fall of 1996.
Bruce Peterson
Sailworks R+D
Bill Hansen
<tsul...@slonet.org> wrote:
>Recently picked up a windwind 4.7 interface for '96, damn have to run it on
>sail takes loads of downhaul and rigs with some ugly wrinkles down the CE of
>the sail out to mid leech. But it works well when overpowered but anything
>approaching just powered enough and its a very low power sail. Seems new
>sails are designed to sail overpowered. Maybe a new mast would help but
Taurus:
I'm a little surprised by your post based on your prior superbly posed and
intelligent writing in sailing publications and this NG.
I'm glad to hear you acquired a '96 Windwing Interface which is an extremely
durable and popular wave sail but, I must point out that it was NOT designed
for either of the masts you mention. Why? Ampro ceased business many years
ago, Killwell is not widely distributed and they are both fairly different
than the RECOMMENDED masts in terms of flex and diameter profile.
I work extremely hard, have a very deep and personal interest in sail
design, sail almost daily in all sorts of underpowered and overpowered
conditions and constantly test and re-test ideas and developments. Speaking
for all sail designers, when a blanket statement is made about ANY sail used
on the WRONG mast, our passion for sailing and designing quickly turns to
frustration. It is bad enough when sails are improperly rigged and
conclusions are drawn (even by magazine testers) but observations (good or
bad) based on incompatible, out-of-date and unavailable masts is misleading
and a disservice to everyone on the NG.
For those out there that may be interested in an Interface sail, I can
unequivocally state with integrity and objectivity that when
rigged correctly and used on the recommended mast, the Interface has CLEARLY DEMONSTRATED
ABOVE AVERAGE LOW-END POWER as well as superior overpowered handling in
windsurfing areas from coast to coast for the last five years.
Best regards,
- Bill
------------------------
William D. Hansen
Sail Design/R&D
http://www.windwing.com
------------------------
Bill Hansen
<eds...@NOSPAM.best.com> wrote:
>As for a different luff sleeve, I know in 1995 Windwing was selling sails esp.
>designed for skinnies, though I steered away from them for flexibility's sake.
>My current quiver, 1997 Interfaces, are not skinny-specific and all rig with a
>snug leading edge against the mast. I guess the luff could be optimized for
>the skinny, but as long as there's not an efficiency issue or an inordinate
>amount of water getting in the luff, I could care less. I'll let him speak for
>himself, but Bill Hansen informs me that he and many Gorge sailors are on
>Powerex 400 skinnies on all sails up to their 4.9. Obviously, it's still a
>rare bird here on the No. Cal. coast, but you see a few of them in the Bay.
You can check the archives for my previous extensive thoughts on RDM
'skinny' masts, luff sleeves and sails, but in a nutshell, they work fine...
Yes, we recommend and use 400cm RDM 'skinnys' on 5.0 sqm sails and down. It
is the easiest mast to find in my bag because it is not only the smallest
and lightest, but the oldest, most scratched and worn looking mast I have.
Why? I've had it for years and it is still growing strong after more than a
few punishing rounds of wave action, 'pogo-ing,' slams and ill-advised
attempts at going out in unsailable (for me) shore pound.
RDM's are now used extensively by more and more highly skilled wave sailors
in the US and Maui who are just plain tired of broken masts, lost sailing
time and the associated life-threatening problems of swimming over the
reefs, bars and rocks with damaged sails and equipment. That isn't to say
RDM's can't be broken, but I would bet the frequency of failures, even in
today's environment of extreme wave sailing maneuvers is superior to any
mast in history including the venerable old grey Ampro which weighed almost
twice as much. Look closely at the 'hot shots' in the mags and you will see
a surprising number of 'skinnys' because they work - not because they are
handed out by sponsors...
> Windsurf Hawaii makes a skinny-specific extension which
>a friend uses, but I haven't tried one yet.
It works fine... Streamlined and Chinnok also have RDM compatible bases.
>As for Dynafiber, I had a skinny braided mast which probably had about 200
>sessions or so on it, and it was very durable.
I helped Dynafiber develop this mast including setting up a testing jig and
breaking prototypes for them at their factory. Unfortunately, this mast and
the similarly-dimensioned Fiberspar version weren't as durable as the
Powerex and No Limitz pre-preg models. Luckily, these more fragile masts are
no longer on the market and giving RDM's a bad name...
>> Skinny to me, smell to much like a fad for those that buy(or get given) new
>> equipment just about yearly...
Something that has been around since the early '90's and steadily gaining
converts at the upper echelons of sailing isn't a fad.
>> Only time will tell but its good to hear some
>> of that skinny stuff lasts, round here skinny has been producing swimmies...
I disagree. For every broken skinny, I'm sure you can find a dozen or so
broken std masts. The guys breaking RDM's are typically the ones who sail
the most and are aggressively and repeatedly going for it. And, when an RDM
does break, it is a topic for conversation rather than an everyday
occurrence.
>> nobody likes to swim whitey infested waters due to equipment failure...
I have sailed Scott Creek for years and still do when I get a chance. IMHO,
when 'Stumpy' and 'Top-Notch' are lurking about I wouldn't want anything but
an RDM.
Bill Hansen
clay6...@aol.com (Clay666666) wrote:
>Regarding skinny masts, let's look at it from a technical point for a moment.
>I beleive that in general, larger, thinner structures are stronger and/or
>lighter. This would suggest that a larger diameter mast would be stronger
>and/or lighter.
You are mistaking 'strength' for stiffness....
>What else enters into the equation?
The wall thickness...
The 'stiffness' of a cylindrical section is proportional to the 4th power of
the outside diameter minus the 4th power of the inside diameter. The
'skinny' must have a thicker wall and/or higher modulus material to achieve
the same design stiffness as a larger disameter mast. Since the materials
used are generally a combination of carbon fiber and glass in either type of
mast, the wall thickness of the 'skinny' must be greater than that of a
standard mast of the same stiffness. The usual failure mode under deflection
is ovalization and collapse of the structure, i.e. think about 'kinking' a
soda straw. A thicker wall better resists ovalization i.e. a smaller
diameter straw with a thicker wall will bend much more before failure than a
larger diameter thin-walled structure...
Kevin Kan
I borrowed Will's 5.5 IF Air last year and was blown away by the low
end. I couldn't believe I was planing!
kev
--
Kevin Kan
ke...@kan.org
www.geocities.com/Colosseum/Arena/8612
Clay666666
I beleive that in general, larger, thinner structures are stronger and/or
lighter. This would suggest that a larger diameter mast would be stronger
the point of breaking, it enters a non-linear region. Does the
stronger/lighter "formula" no longer apply?
clay
Tauras
Bill Hansen wrote in message <9292208...@news.remarQ.com>...
NLW TFW NM
$125 in Gorge swap meets, personal sales, local swap meets around the country,
etc. There's no reason to try to sail modern sails on old, dramatically
mismatched masts. I just sold three well-used but flawless US-made Dynafiber
460s this week for $125-$140, and will probably sell my virtually unused
U.S.-made Dyafiber Tsunami 460 wave for about $150 -- I hope.
Used gear just a couple of years old is dirt cheap most places I've seen, as
low as 20 cents on the dollar even though in very good to excellent shape. I've
been unable to sell harnesses, masts, sails, fins and neoprene -- often current
or even NEXT year's gear, used only once if at all -- until I dropped its price
well below half of its usual selling price. I bought my last two half-masts --
U.S.-made Dynafibers -- for $10 each, without a flaw on them beyond the usual
scuff marks -- because the owner had broken their lower halves.
There's just no reason to sail ancient gear on any budget over $1k per year,
except one: CHOICE. And that's ALWAYS a valid reason.
Mike \m/
Alan Sandoval
is the user that is inadequate.
Alan
Formerly of The Water Planet
http//www.thewaterplanet.com