Ultimate Boom Height, has anyone asked Robby Naish?
WLFLANNERY
shoulder ,some say collar bone, some say chin, some say chest(top middle etc.).
Where does Robby naish set his ? How about Josh Stone. Can I contact them?
Windsurfer Wil
Dan Weiss
especially in wavesailing. You might recall pictures of Robby sailing as a
youngster on early gear. There was only so much adjustment available and he
made do with whatever was presented to him. He generally prefers a larger
power triangle (mastfoot, boom height, front footstrap) than most sailors
and his technique is built around this spread. Others keep everything
closer and sail just as well.
Boom height ranges among sailors and there is no single correct height.
Optimum height differs by sailor preference, rocker line, wind direction and
speed, fin design, sail draft position, footstrap spread and swell height.
In the most general terms, boom height from chest to chin allows easier
bottom turns, chin to eyeball easier control in jumping, but even these
basics are flexible. Start with whatever you are used to and change nothing
other than boom height throughout your session. The differences will become
obvious.
--
-Dan
"WLFLANNERY" <wlfla...@aol.com> wrote in message
news:20011016224513...@mb-fh.aol.com...
Mike F
high enough to keep my butt out of the water and low enough that I can rest
the boom on the tail when waterstarting. Then I go sailin'.
Mike \m/
"Dan Weiss" <dwu...@bellsouth.net> wrote in message
news:ym7z7.11273$n41.2...@e3500-atl2.usenetserver.com...
MTVNewsGuy
questions, and his answer was invariably (and maddeningly) "I'm always
adjusting and trying new things." He doesn't have a place he keeps his boom,
or harness lines, or fin, or anything.
Michael
US5613
Allen Beinke
discusses the ultimate boom height. He recommends that the boom always be
within an inch either side of the tail when raked back over the board. He
is convinced that this works for all types of sailing and for all ability
levels. He indicates that this works regardless of where the mast foot is
placed. (See his most recent interview with Josh Stone in the September
issue of Boards Magazine. Josh's boom is set about an inch off the tail.)
In previous articles, he has recommended a mastfoot position of 135 cm from
the tail for the newer style boards. It seems to work well for me (I'm
5'9") but I have no idea if it translates well for other sailors with
different boards.
Dan Weiss
mastfoot position for all boards then I would be skeptical of any advice he
might give on boom height. As for boom height, he's wrong. Boom height is
more directly a function of board width rather than length. Think about it.
A longboard boom (set for racing) goes high all the time but it moves many
centimeters in its masttrack. formula board requires very high booms due
to its width, but the same boom height on a wave board of the same length
260-265 would be completely imbalanced. Sorry, Allen, but Mr. Bornhoft must
be smoking crack if he wants to apply his observations to all types of
boards. That said, he is close regarding many wave boards.
--
-Dan
"Allen Beinke" <vie...@swbell.net> wrote in message
news:bqgz7.1911$276.63...@newssvr12.news.prodigy.com...
MTVNewsGuy
Michael
US5613
Dan Weiss
found implausible was the claim that a fixed boom height formula based
solely on board length is absolutely, positively oversimplified -so much so
that the formula is wrong. Not that there aren't a handful of boards where
the formula coincidentally works, maybe like the Techno, but it makes about
as much sense as saying that the number of cans of beer to buy is directly
related to how many people you invited to your party. Sure, it's a start,
but hardly a solid answer. I can say this because when I invited my local
chapter of AA to my house for a get-together they left behind most of the
beer! Good for them, I thought, but next time I gotta look at other
factors!
--
-Dan
"MTVNewsGuy" <mtvne...@aol.com> wrote in message
news:20011017132334...@mb-fo.aol.com...
Mike F
you can't reach your boom except on tiptoe.
Mike \m/
"Jerry McEwen" <ma...@mail.com> wrote in message
news:d7hsst0jdrnoe63fa...@4ax.com...
> I don;t get this --->
>
> > the boom always be >within an inch either side of the tail when raked
back over the board
>
> Huh? This sounds to me like we are talking about how far to sheet in.
> Somebody please clue me in.
Martin Allen
I think he was saying the boom should be within an inch of the tail of the
board when the mast is layed back on the board. Not raked back, as in the
sailing position.
Not sure if this is right but I think it is what he was saying.
Martin
Dan Weiss
cockeyed! How many other factors play into boom height? How about: mastbox
position, footstrap position, sailor height & weight, wind angle relative to
sailing direction, chop height, wave weight, chop conditions on the wave
face, position of draft in the sail, position of "draft" in the fin, whether
the fin itself is set fore or aft in its base, rocker line, outline of the
board, distance of straps to tail, whether your board is a flapper or not,
volume distribution, and finally what you ate for breakfast. Plus about four
thousand other things including whether you absolutely need to rest the
booms on the tail of the board when waterstarting.
As another analogy, the average shoe-wearing man in the US wear a size 8.5
US. I doubt that this would work for someone like Bill Kline, and I know
Bill uses his shoes as well as anyone else!
It's an simplification that might give some sailors a place to start, but
there is much better advice out there, even better advice in here!
--
-Dan
"Martin Allen" <mr.m...@virgin.net> wrote in message
news:ZRvz7.803$sF.1...@news2-win.server.ntlworld.com...
Ellen Faller
boom to rest on the tail of the board so they can use the tail while
getting organized for a waterstart. This is like compromising your whole
sailing style for something quite limiting. If you *require* the back of
the board in order to get the sail flying, it would be best to learn
good waterstart technique instead of sailing with a boom set too low
just for waterstarts.
Ellen
Tom Eberhard
Boom height is going to be most correlated to sailor height.
IMHO. :)
I used to set it as high as possible, thinking "it's good for early planing", but
as soon as the winds would pick up, I'd have control issues. Being 5'8" (about
average), I now set the boom right smack in the middle of the sail cut, and forget
about it. When the wind really picks up, I lower it by 1/2 an inch, but
the effect could be mostly psychological.
I think boom height will also be influenced by wether most of your height
comes from long legs or a long torso. (And many other variables... like
foot strap placement and mast track placement)
tom. (Boston)
Dan Weiss
--
-Dan
"Ellen Faller" <eleanor...@yale.edu> wrote in message
news:3BCF0EB5...@yale.edu...
Mike F
their SHREDDIN' just to make waterstarting easier? After all, we shred for
hours, yet water start only 50-60-70-80 times per sesh. Jeez, that;'s REALLY
stupid. It's SAILING that's important, not ease of the amenities. Of all the
ridiculous things I've heard of people doing in this sport, that's the worst
one yet.
After all, all one has to do to fly a big sail after orienting everything
properly is 1) swim it upwind until its clew reaches the surface, 2) swim to
the mast tip, 3) grab the tip of the mast, 4) kick like heck and stroke with
the other hand to remain afloat while trying to lift the tip clear of the
water so the sail can inflate, 5) keep it clear of the water while swimming
and inching the hand down the mast, and 6) re-orient the rig so the clew
faces downwind before the wind flips the rig forward and forces us to start
over. With small tight-luffed sails, maybe 5.x and down, it's quicker to
yank the rig out of the water with all your might while kicking as hard as
possible and hoping the clew clears before the wind flips it.
What could be easier?
Ooh, ooh ... can I answer that one?
Effortlessly placing board tail under boom -- even with a sunken sail --
and letting physics do the rest.
Tall people, people with AVS boards, and people who prefer very long harness
lines for some reason don't have that luxury; they WOULD have to compromise
sailing position. But us normal-height folks on non-AVS boards who like
short harness lines have to make no compromise to rest the boom on the tail
... and that makes life a HUGE amount easier for people who get wet often or
don't wear a PFD.
Just thought I'd add that for the beginner/intermediates who haven't yet
realized that many people don't have to make any sailing concessions to
waterstart the truly easy way. Of the hundreds of boards I've ridden (none
AVS, obviously), maybe two or three had deck boxes so close to the tail that
my preferred sailing boom height put the boom off the tail. That's just one
of the advantages of short harness lines.
Mike \m/
"Ellen Faller" <eleanor...@yale.edu> wrote in message
news:3BCF0EB5...@yale.edu...
Dan Weiss
board wider than 75cm like the raceboards. The boom height is so high and
the mastboxes so close to the tail that they almost always miss the tail.
And in the world of 10.4s, having the floatation of the tail to help fly the
sail in 12 knots can make life easier, but it's rarely possible.
Waterstarting from the head on these big sails is almost impossible due to
the weight of the rig. But, don't confuse me as an apologist for poor
advice.
--
-Dan
"Mike F" <iso...@urxSpamDam.com> wrote in message
news:PnHz7.7337$DY1.4...@sjcpnn01.usenetserver.com...
Mike F
addressed my comments) should be -- or commonly are -- sailing? Are these
the types of boards or sail sizes the thread's originator addressed (for
freestyle and waves)? I don't think so.
But your extrapolation does raise an unrelated question which once again
reveals my ignorance of such matters: How DO people get 10.4s on wide race
boards out of the water? Do they actually UPHAUL these beasts every time? If
so, no WONDER I keep seeing threads about uphaul devices.
Mike \m/
"Dan Weiss" <dwu...@bellsouth.net> wrote in message
news:8fIz7.8243$K8.6...@e3500-atl1.usenetserver.com...
rollinnufffatter
>
i do not know if this has been said, but, doesn't proper boom height
really come down to personal comfort?
anyone try someone else rig and felt like it was totally out of whack?
what is proper waterstarting technique? Someone mentioned this. I am
certain whatever it is, its got to be what is the fasted and most
effortless to the sailor.
there are definetly wrong ways to do things but there a certainly more
than one RIGHT way to do things
When I was learning how to sail low volume boards, someone told me to
pull the booms across the tail of the deck. That was the best thing
any one ever taught me in regards to windsurfing. If I was
comprimising sailing efficiency and "proper waterstarting technique"
for ease and comfort than so be it. I am still blasting the doors off
a lot of my friends.
tim
Mike F
analyses of boom height wrong, but it certainly presents the other side of
the coin.
Some say high booms give the driver greater leverage over the sail. Well,
yes, technically speaking, x lateral pounds applied at chin height DOES
provide greater torque to the rig than applying x pounds at chest height,
but applying x pounds is much easier at chest height than at chin height, so
the leverage advantage may be lost in the effort tradeoff, for all the
reasons Dan alluded to.
Certainly there are boom heights that are flat WRONG, such as forehead or
sternum. But way back when I was still experimenting with boom height, it
seemed to me that booms too high tired my shoulders and arms first (from
having to work with my hands too high), whereas booms too low tired my legs
first (because I couldn't put enough of my weight into the harness). Between
those extremes -- and they weren't that far apart -- I suspect it boils down
to comfort, including all points of sail and waterstarting (if one does that
a lot, as I do). But we should be vigilant for stance or performance
problems attributable to boom height; slight changes can affect both comfort
and performance ... which is why I may adjust boom height as the day and the
wind vary, and why I don't notice that my booms have slipped down a few
inches until they have crept towards the rear strap when resting the boom on
the tail. After all, it takes about three seconds in almost any conditions
to raise or lower the booms.
Minor boom height variations are sort of like switching boom grip diameters.
When I go from small grips to fat grips, the change feels DRAMATIC ... for
almost a whole reach, by which time I've forgotten the change completely.
I'd guess precise -- or at least CONSISTENT -- boom height is pretty
important to a serious, proficient, technical racer or early planer. I doubt
it's very important to the rest of us.
Mike \m/
"rollinnufffatter" <ry...@aol.com> wrote in message
news:3f19f9b2.01101...@posting.google.com...
Brian Collis
> reveals my ignorance of such matters: How DO people get 10.4s on wide race
> boards out of the water? Do they actually UPHAUL these beasts every time?
If
> so, no WONDER I keep seeing threads about uphaul devices.
8 times out of 10 I end up uphauling my 10.7. But if I'm racing, and I,
sail, and board have fallen into favorable locations, I'll be able to
waterstart it before the sleeve fills with water. If I'm not racing, and
feeling really lazy, I'll waterstart it from scratch.. but it usually takes
a lifejacket and a minute or 2 of kicking to get it flying. I've said it
before, a lifevest is a great tool for waterstarting large sails.
Brian
MTVNewsGuy
place slowly enough so you can set up the sail as you fall in, or at least get
it to fall so that it can be uphauled starting from a
mast-perpendicular-to-the-wind position to get some air under it. Otherwise,
without a floatation vest, they are bears.
Michael
US5613
woolsgrs
yep thats correct .. rig up set your mast track (135cm was just a
guide yes it varies with the board, conditions etc.) ... lay the rig
on the ground whilst attached to the board, the boom should be about 1
to 2" off the back of the board, this is then your starting reference
.. sure you may come back in and change it .. I found it fine on most
of my kit but do not have any fourmula stuff ( respect to you boyz
uphauling 10 ) .. if you like to use the back of the board to
waterstart then just grab the back strap and pull the boom over your
arm ( check you boom aint going to shred you or your suit).
think thats right
Si
Mike F
especially if that difference is compensated by harness line length? If not,
and I contend that it is generally not, why not just lower the boom by that
couple of inches, shorten the lines by a couple of inches if that floats yer
boat, and make waterstarting TREMENDOUSLY simpler in the process?
Mike \m/
"woolsgrs" <wool...@yahoo.com> wrote
Dan Weiss
fractions. The ability to sense the difference requires a certain amount of
ground work and a systematic approach to performance. Those who race and
wish to place MUST be able to repeat their tuning every time they sail, so
one of my favorite "downhaul" tools is my little composition book and pen.
When everything is just so, slight changes in boom height result in
significant changes in harness line pressure and every sailor can feel how
harness line tension affects fin pressure and the margins of sailing angles.
Yes, Mike, I bet you can feel it on your OO and a 4.0. But you sail in
something of a never-never land, with terrific conditions a lot of the time
and a favorable current virtually all of the time, so boom placement may not
be a big issue for you. Rest assured that it is a huge deal on race gear.
--
-Dan
"Mike F" <iso...@urxSpamDam.com> wrote in message
news:9blA7.81991$DY1.2...@sjcpnn01.usenetserver.com...
Mike F
considering the range of board configurations, rider sizes, etc.? And once
again, read the original question: "Whats the best boom height for freestyle
and wavesailing?"
Mike \m/
"Dan Weiss" <dwu...@bellsouth.net> wrote in message
news:LtqA7.13997$K8.10...@e3500-atl1.usenetserver.com...
Dan Weiss
lighten up in your tone, huh? You and I totally agree that one ought not to
measure boom height from the tail.
As for the original question, it appeared about 6000 posts earlier (I can't
really tell due to the limit I place on displayed messages) and the
selection of boom height is broader than simply the distance from the
mastfoot to the tail -even with waveboards. But topics progress and my
comments tried to match what I perceived as the increased scope that
includes all types of shortboards.
But, if you really want to get your panties in a wad about it, I will, too.
Generally for WAVEBOARDS, heavy rocker makes pitch angle crucial for planing
at the bottom of the power zone. Boom height affects mast base pressure
which in turn affects where the bottom of the board meets the water with a
given amount of sail pressure. As booms go up, mastbase pressure increases
forcing more of the board down to the water. Sometimes too much board goes
in and the board pushes water inhibiting both ease of planing top speed.
For onshore wavesailing, boom height is critical just to get out. For real
side-on to side-off conditions, boom height totally matters because it
determines how much rail pressure you get on a bottom turn with a certain
amount of front foot pressure and how much loft you get on an off the lip,
all other things being equal.
In other words, boom height relates to outline and rail design. Hmm, never
thought of that, huh? Maybe you have, so then you know that the same issues
and more apply to FREESTYLE boards and the ergonomics from tack to tack.
Wanna make the grab on a Vulcan? Better get your boom height dialed. Wanna
stay upwind in 15 knots with a 9.5" freestyle fin and still have power to
boost a 6 foot air in flat water? Better know that you can pressure your
harness lines without too much rake to windward in order to elevate the
tail. Ever tried a Shove It when your HPL booms are slowly creeping down to
your ankles? It's a great way to new dental work.
Even with aggressive swell riding and lofting big airs to windward, free
ride blasting in the gorge is much the same as basic out and back or
"BAF"ing as I've come to know the term. Straightforward jumps and trench
carving in the swells can be had without totally dialed in gear. Hell, for
a while in the gorge micro-sized racing gear was the baddest stuff around
for really kicking ass. Thankfully Brain Hinde and many others showed us
the way to easier fun, but for situations and applications that are
extremely technical like the purposes to which WAVEBOARDS and FREESTYLE
boards are designed to be put, boom height and harness line length make
measured differences.
I hope this brings to an end this completely stupid roundabout exchange that
started with a valid question and some questionable advice. The forum now
belongs to you, take up all the space you need. Peace, love and Full Sail.
-Dan
"Mike F" <iso...@urxSpamDam.com> wrote in message
news:Z9rA7.93348$DY1.3...@sjcpnn01.usenetserver.com...
Mike F
a rare commodity this year, so the swell is way down. In the very spots the
swell should be best, the current often flows east in big eddies, leaving us
hurting for bumps.
Mike \m/
"Dan Weiss" <dwu...@bellsouth.net> wrote in message
news:LtqA7.13997$K8.10...@e3500-atl1.usenetserver.com...
Mike F
the issue at hand, in case I can benefit from your more detailed knowledge
(it's obvious you think more deeply than I do about this stuff): How is
mastfoot pressure dependent on boom height independent of harness line
length? Can't we achieve equal mastfoot pressure with the same stance by
lowering the boom x inches while shortening harness line effective length
the same x inches, within reason? If so, then isn't it advantageous to lower
the boom those x inches and shorten harness lines the same x inches if that
allows both the same mastfoot pressure AND easier water starting? Or is
there some specific benefit to a certain boom height which overrides harness
line adjustment range?
As for "Those who race and wish to place ..." ... that's why I addressed my
remarks specifically to "the beginner/intermediates who haven't yet realized
that many people don't have to make any sailing concessions to
waterstart the truly easy way". I suspect my advice still rings true to the
group I addressed, unless your answer to my last question changes my
thinking on that. I'm infinitely more interested in sailing better and
advising more accurately than in worrying about skin thickness, panties,
forum possession, and other such inconsequential stuff.
Mike \m/
"Dan Weiss" <dwu...@bellsouth.net> wrote in message
news:MKrA7.14107$K8.11...@e3500-atl1.usenetserver.com...
Windsurfer Will
Windsurfer Will
Dan Weiss
Boom height and harnessl ine length do affect mastbase pressure, but
differently. It's part ergonomics and part physics/geometry. Loading up
the harness lines at a fixed length produces varied amounts of mastfoot
pressure depending on boom height. The higher the booms, the more a given
amount of weight in the harness lines pressures the mastbase. However,
sailors often divide the load between their arms and their harness so some
degree, so sometimes shorter harness lines can result in the rider being to
choked-up to make the necessary adjustments while on the move. The same
hamstrung situation occurs with excessively long lines.
If one is underpowered on larger sails, as is the case trying to accelerate
on plane in marginal winds, lower booms plus short lines equals greater
difficulty in raking the rig to windward and hanging off the booms. The
sailor finds it tough to unweight the tail since her weight remains on her
feet to a much bigger degree than it would be with higher booms and longer
lines. So you really can't get the same mastbase pressure with lower booms
even with shorter lines.
I guess for bump&jump style conditions I also try to ensure ease of
waterstarting in marginal conditions, especially on low volume boards, and
sometimes I do exactly what you suggest. But it's a second best solution:
maybe reducing outhaul or a different fin might increase the time spent on
top of the water rather than in the drink. "Yeah but the rigging area is
way over there and my boom clamp is right here." I'm with you, Mike.
--
-Dan
"Mike F" <iso...@urxSpamDam.com> wrote in message
news:YAtA7.98162$DY1.3...@sjcpnn01.usenetserver.com...
Craig (gsogh) Goudie
my boom hasn't seen the tail of my board (about 7 or 8 years), but yesterday,
while trying to water start my 8.5 (XT2) in light wind, I decided that rather than
swimming about and thrashing the sail out of the water, that I'd use the nose
of the board to float it up. Works pretty well. I actually waterstarted tail
first
and then switched the board around after I was under way, but you could
just manouver the board around while you were in the water with the sail flying.
Things people will do while waiting to waterstart!
-Craig
Ellen Faller wrote:
--
Craig (Go Short or Go Home!) Goudie
Sailing the high desert lakes of Utah on my:
RRD 298, Starboard 272 and Cross M 8'2" with
Sailworks/Naish Sails and Rec Composites Fins
Sailing the Gorge on my: 9'1" RRD Freeride,
8'3" Logosz Squish, 8'0" Hitech IBM with
Sailworks/Northwave Sails and Curtis Fins
Ellen Faller
especially on formula gear! The angle that the harness lines make with
the boom and the angle of one's body to the rig are important. Lowering
the boom and shortening the harness lines isn't the same at all. And it
makes a huge amount of difference in one'a ability to get performance.
The formula boards are so wide that you need to raise your booms about 2
inches to get the same leverage angle as you would on a narrow board.
Ellen
MTVNewsGuy
lowering my boom half an inch can trim a board that trying to tailwalk to a
board that is screaming comfortably in control. Duffy's theory is that by
adding a little weight to the front foot, a board/fin that would otherwise be
overpowered is more susceptible to control by the sailor.That only works in my
experience when the sail is well downhauled, but the half inch trick is a good
one.
Michael
US5613
Mike F
stuff having any observable impact on much of anything but ... boom height
... at least to us real people, even some pretty serious and competent ones,
even if extended to technical amateur sailing such as racing or early
planing. Roger, Wolfgang, Frank, Dan, Charles -- you and several others who
are and get very technical about your sailing -- I can see you feeling a
variation this small ... MAYBE ... but why wouldn't just shortening the
harness lines that half-inch make the boom height adjustment go away? If so,
wouldn't that apply if we go an inch ... two .. maybe even three? Do you
guys believe that half an inch in boom height can tame a tailwalk any more
than simply deliberately putting a few extra pounds on your front foot by a
very small weight or stance shift ... or a hamburger?
If this topic is boring you, or if its analysis or explanation is tedious,
never mind. It's just idle curiosity for me ... unless I'm that far wrong in
advising people that minor boom height adjustments can be compensated by
opposite harness line length adjustments. I originally shortened my harness
lines ... a LOT ... because I didn't like trying to hook into long lines
waving in the wind, then I lowered the booms to compensate for the shorter
lines. In that process, I felt no side effects of the lower booms ... just
the shorter lines no longer flapping in the wind. As a bonus, my booms met
the tail better.
Saying that changing boom height is detrimental to sailing also makes HUGE
and very often invalid assumptions that not only is one's boom height
"perfect" to begin with, but that a change in it can't be compensated. Both
of those are hard to swallow for anything less than a pro who measures and
sails in the third decimal place ... and I'll be that many of them -- at
least the most successful ones -- change their stance or adjustments a bit
every time they lose or plane later. That implies even THEY don't have
everything perfect, so why would any lesser sailor?
I've seen 1" adjustments in mast foot position make a big difference even in
high-wind B&J boards and conditions; I know centimeters can count. But this
particular adjustment and its claimed incompensability still escapes me,
both theoretically and on the water.
Mike \m/
"MTVNewsGuy" <mtvne...@aol.com> wrote in message
news:20011022175218...@mb-mg.aol.com...
MTVNewsGuy
likely to make this adjustment in very powered 5.5-6.5 flatwater sailing...I
don't think I've ever worried about this sailing in big chop. Also note, Mike,
that you may be sailing with a lower boom than most to begin with, if you're
set up to waterstart your boom off the tail of your board. As far as the
alternate choice of "deliberately putting a few extra pounds on your front
foot" lowering the boom allows more pressure to be applied this way than with
with the higher boom setting.
Mike F wrote<<
Michael
US5613
Dan Weiss
know, and may offer greater flexibility for gear tuning to suit personal
style. But when a large board tends to tailwalk, simply standing on the
rail with more weight isn't a useful option as typically there is no more
weight or pressure to provide -unless you drop your booms or lengthen your
lines. So in a sense you are correct. In certain extreme situations
lengthening harness lines can provide relief. But the solution to
tailwalking is not rail pressure but mastbase pressure. The proper solution
to tailwalking (as defined by the nose of the board being held up way over
your head, generally downwind, not merely flying around and tough to
control) is to RAISE your booms a bit and move the mastfoot farther forward
a tad to keep the nose down
But I think it also proves my point about boom height. If lowering a boom
4cm adds that much weight to the rail in overpowered conditions, and raising
the boom increases mastfoot pressure significantly enough to combat
tailwalking, then 1-2cm adjustments make a big deal in moderate to fully
powered conditions. Yes, you can feel a 2cm adjustment. On race gear you
can feel down to about 5mm adjustment, especially when everything else is
tuned just so.
--
-Dan
"MTVNewsGuy" <mtvne...@aol.com> wrote in message
news:20011023073640...@mb-mh.aol.com...
MTVNewsGuy
to tailwalking (as defined by the nose of the board being held up way over
your head, generally downwind, not merely flying around and tough to
control) is to RAISE your booms a bit and move the mastfoot farther forward
a tad to keep the nose down >>
Dan,
I'd agree with your prescription if we're talking about a sailor whose boom
is low to begin with, and who doesn't have solid techique for overpowered
sailing. But for sailors who are competent sailing overpowered and with their
mast tracks back, generally seeking the control/crazed speed balance, the
slight lowering of the boom does work. I took this right from an instructional
videotape (Brad Duffy's University of Speed tape), tried it, and it worked. (I
love things that work the first time!)
A specific gear combination that I have employed this with: Naish 8'11" with
NP Supersonic 6.7, running a 32cm fin. Note that I run my mast track well back
in the box, and generally sail with a moderately high boom. When I ought to
rig down to 5.5 for fun but am instead interested in smoking my friends for
awhile, is when I sometimes find myself employing the slight lowering of the
boom for control.
Michael
US5613
Dan Weiss
help control the rail. But riding a board overpowered either by wind or
speed (overpowered fin) is totally different than tailwalking. Tailwalking
can start with a fin too big, but it is ultimately lack of mastfoot pressure
that causes the nose to flip above your head and the board to continue
moving along uncontrolled. Excessively weighting the windward rail can help
prevent tailwalking but generally has other deleterious performance effects
when racing. Better than crashing, though.
Tailwalking is a phenomenon beyond simple control issues when overpowered.
It's similar to an uncontrolled wheelie on a motorcycle when applying sudden
amounts of power. It's a power imbalance that has nothing to do with keeping
the power to the road (otherwise similar to weighting the windward rail as
much as possible). The front wheel must come back down for control purposes
so the rider throttles down and shifts his or her weight forward and the
wheel drops. This is exactly the solution needed when tailwalking, only you
can't reduce power by sheeting out as this only makes matters worse
(reduction in mastbase pressure) so you sheet in hard to push the nose back
down or just crash. Raising the booms puts more pressure to the front
without forcing the windward rail down to much. It's a fine line, but the
only way to prevent tailwalking and go fast at extreme angles in the lulls.
So maybe we're speaking of different things or using our terms differently.
--
-Dan
"MTVNewsGuy" <mtvne...@aol.com> wrote in message
news:20011023110325...@mb-mg.aol.com...
Steven Slaby
> Man, I just don't understand all this half an inch boom height variation
> stuff having any observable impact on much of anything but ... boom height
> ... at least to us real people, even some pretty serious and competent ones,
> even if extended to technical amateur sailing such as racing or early
> planing. Roger, Wolfgang, Frank, Dan, Charles -- you and several others who
> are and get very technical about your sailing -- I can see you feeling a
> variation this small ... MAYBE ... but why wouldn't just shortening the
> harness lines that half-inch make the boom height adjustment go away? If so,
> wouldn't that apply if we go an inch ... two .. maybe even three? Do you
> guys believe that half an inch in boom height can tame a tailwalk any more
> than simply deliberately putting a few extra pounds on your front foot by a
> very small weight or stance shift ... or a hamburger?
For me, its not a matter of a 1/2 inch; more like an inch or two and for
me it can make a big difference for equipment tuning. For lightwind
planing I put the boom quite high. If the wind picks up, these are the
steps I take to get things back under control in order:
- outhaul
- downhaul
- drop boom
- smaller fin
- smaller board
- smaller sail
With a high boom, my front foot is pulling *up* on the strap so it would
be very difficult to shift my weight to push down on that front foot...
Shortening harness lines do not change the angle at which your weight is
pulling against the boom; over-simplified: lower boom = horizontal pull,
more of your weight on the board; higher boom = vertical pull, less weight
on the board.
Steve.
--
"The surest sign that intelligent life exists elsewhere in the universe is
that it has never tried to contact us" (Bill Watterson)
Wolfgang Soergel
>
> Man, I just don't understand all this half an inch boom height variation
> stuff having any observable impact on much of anything but ... boom height
> ... at least to us real people, even some pretty serious and competent ones,
> even if extended to technical amateur sailing such as racing or early
> planing. Roger, Wolfgang, Frank, Dan, Charles -- you and several others who
> are and get very technical about your sailing -- I can see you feeling a
> variation this small ... MAYBE ... but why wouldn't just shortening the
> harness lines that half-inch make the boom height adjustment go away? If so,
> wouldn't that apply if we go an inch ... two .. maybe even three? Do you
> guys believe that half an inch in boom height can tame a tailwalk any more
> than simply deliberately putting a few extra pounds on your front foot by a
> very small weight or stance shift ... or a hamburger?
I don't claim i can feel far less than a cm difference or that different
boom height could not be compensated, to some degree. But i noted as a
fact this season that different boom height gives a vastly different
feeling: I do have a rather narrow window of boom height where i feel
comfortable. 1 inch higher or lower will probabely not change my sailing
much in objective terms (speed, planing etc), maybe even improve some
aspects (i have the booms relatively low, even for my short bodylength).
And i don't think that changing other variables could compensate: I have
the harness lines at different length on different booms (longer on the
"slogging boom") but raising the boom a bit did not improve sailing.
Just feels wered, especially in manouvers, when one isn;t hooked in
anyways (e.g. sailing backwinded). Maybe it's also the angle of the boom
one is used to, this could probabely compensated to some degree by
mastfoot and strap placement. But i don't have movable straps anyways
and the mastfoot position is determined once, when i sail the board/sail
combo the first time and then stays mostly put.
> If this topic is boring you, or if its analysis or explanation is tedious,
> never mind. It's just idle curiosity for me ... unless I'm that far wrong in
> advising people that minor boom height adjustments can be compensated by
> opposite harness line length adjustments. I originally shortened my harness
> lines ... a LOT ... because I didn't like trying to hook into long lines
> waving in the wind, then I lowered the booms to compensate for the shorter
> lines. In that process, I felt no side effects of the lower booms ... just
> the shorter lines no longer flapping in the wind. As a bonus, my booms met
> the tail better.
From a short persons perspective i can't quite understand the problem
anyways, my booms touch the tail on any board, even with mastfoot
placements rather far back (around 130 cm from the tail or less). And if
for some reason i sail a combo with the boom too far back i simply
pretend it touches the deck: Imho the "waterstarting trick" does not
really depend on the tail to be there but rather at the movement: Pull
the mast from a leeward position of the board over the board centerline
into the wind. For some leverage, hold the board with the back hand at
the back strap while pulling the sail with the fron hand, grabbing the
mast as far to the top as possible. Was enough for me for a 3cam 8.5
race sail on a less than optimal frame (alu booms) in nearly no wind,
can't speak for bigger sails. (No, this is not my own rig, it was at a
demo day.)
> Saying that changing boom height is detrimental to sailing also makes HUGE
> and very often invalid assumptions that not only is one's boom height
> "perfect" to begin with, but that a change in it can't be compensated. Both
> of those are hard to swallow for anything less than a pro who measures and
> sails in the third decimal place ... and I'll be that many of them -- at
> least the most successful ones -- change their stance or adjustments a bit
> every time they lose or plane later. That implies even THEY don't have
> everything perfect, so why would any lesser sailor?
I think nobody has everything absolutely perfect, maybe except
Dunkerbeck in his best days.
> I've seen 1" adjustments in mast foot position make a big difference even in
> high-wind B&J boards and conditions; I know centimeters can count. But this
> particular adjustment and its claimed incompensability still escapes me,
> both theoretically and on the water.
Good for you, one less parameter to worry about. I'm certainly not too
religious about setup, gave up things like m,arking my booms for the
different sails years ago etc. I simply note that mast foost position
and boom height are something one should not permanently change since
they do have effects. Easy to do, there ere scratch marks on the boards
after screwing in and out the mastfoot a couple of times and there are
marks on the sails for the boom. What i do is taking my time when
sailing/rigging equipment the first time: Try out variations, see how it
looks and feels. Helps later when i'm sailing and something just feels
wrong to determine the reason. Sometimes then one finds that the
mastfoot slipped or one forgot to lower the boom to it's final position
after downhauling, sometimes one must blame the wind, the wine or the
sailor...
--
Wolfgang
MTVNewsGuy
differently. >>
I think that's it. I'll distinguish between tailwalking of a board whose rig
is not fully sheeted in or that's grossly inappropriate for the conditions,
versus a very overpowered board that still can be sailed (and a great speed)
with proper trimming.
In any event, a half inch of boom adjustment makes a subtle but usefull
difference for me if I'm sailing 5.5. or bigger sails.
Michael
US5613
Mike F
powered up on a 5.5-6.5, whether in New Mexico or the Gorge, the chop and/or
swell is running at least two feet, sometimes four or even more if the
current is good, and I'm too busy hunting for ramps and slashing off the
swell. Precision sort of goes out the window. I've not looked to see where
other have their booms in many years. Maybe I should pay more attention ...
that's what led me to trying short lines in the first place, and I'm glad I
did that. It really helped my sailing.
Mike \m/
"MTVNewsGuy" <mtvne...@aol.com> wrote in message
news:20011023073640...@mb-mh.aol.com...
Mike F
took a great deal of effort to prevent tailwalk even before the wind filled
in thoroughly. Some reaches I just deliberately let -- sometimes even
made -- the board sail for hundreds of meters with the nose obscuring my
forward vision, just for the fun of it. It's very controllable, even a valid
and sustainable survival sailing mode -- on small boards. What the heck --
it was about the only control I HAD over the board before deciding to drive
somewhere else in search of less wind. It would have been a good chance to
play with the effects of boom height on tailwalk. Didn't occur to me, as I
experience tailwalk only a few times each year. I'd guess big, wide boards
see it more as first the windward rail lifts from "fin power", then air gets
under the board, then up comes the nose. I haven't felt a rail lift since
about 1985, as I don't use the long fins you guys do.
Mike \m/
"Dan Weiss" <dwu...@bellsouth.net> wrote in message
news:3pdB7.39249$B3.10...@e3500-atl2.usenetserver.com...
Mike F
... throw the rig at the water in a fast beam reach and expect it to
magically rise back into your hands? The mag said it was a simple trick,
made it sound like a gimme as long as we followed instructions.
Yeah ... sure ... right.
Musta been the April issue.
I followed the recipe, and ... sure enough ... ate it. What the heck should
we EXPECT when throwing the rig onto the water just ahead of us at speed but
a big endo (hehehe ... I said endo)? Glad I expected it, 'cause I was not
disappointed. Probably better left until warm wearther and water return.
Mike \m/
"MTVNewsGuy" <mtvne...@aol.com> wrote
Mike F
boom on the tail on the vast majority of "normal" boards; my inseam is 29",
which, I gather from the trouser selection racks, is short. And I've seen
only one or two people using shorter harness lines than mine. I may be
5'10"/178 cm, but my legs sure aren't.
Mike \m/
"Wolfgang Soergel" <wsoe...@lnt.de> wrote
MTVNewsGuy
haven't tried it again.
MIke F wrote<<
Mike \m/
>>
Michael
US5613