Windwing (WW) breakage / manufacturing quality problems. "Only our Chinese masts break" (John, sales manager, amwind@worldpath.net)

[Wind4...@gmail.com]

I would like to share my experience with Windwing products,
specifically sail and mast breakage:

Part I: Buying two sails

In 2007 I bought 2 WW Formula sails on closeout 10.6 and 8.3m. I
inquired before the purchase, if they could be rigged on my existing
Powerex masts and was told yes. Rigging was difficult, however,
because it seemed to require more downhaul tension than other current
FF sails (e.g. Gaastra).
FF 8.3m ca. $350+34(SH)
FF2005 10.0m $260+34(SH);

Part II: Extra mast
John of WW (amw...@worldpath.net) said their mast would solve any
rigging problems. Thus, I bought it (100% carbon Gulftech 520).
$418+$150(UPS)

Part III: Sail breaks before being on the water
I then followed John's rigging instructions closely. I was concerned
about the downhaul tension because it seemed to strain the foot of the
sail such that I heard creaking sounds in the panels. I took pictures
and emailed them to WW. I was told to apply more downhaul. Did that.
As a result the seem between the bottom of the sail and the lowest
panel broke.

Part IV: "FF sails are really difficult to rig, get the Hammer RDM
instead"
At this point, John told me that the FF are notoriously difficult to
rig, that they were getting out of the business of selling these. He
recommended that I return all the equipment towards the purchase of a
Windwing Hammer with RDM mast.
$150 for return shipment.

Part V: Wrong Sail size shipped
I ordered a Hammer RDM 8.3m, Gulftech 490cm RDM mast, and carbon
skinny extension. Instead of the yellow 8.3m WW shipped a black 9.0m.
The skinny extension was aluminum and not carbon as promised. This was
in October 2007.
$ neutral (returned merchandise $1028, new merchandise $992 + SH)

Part VI: Happy sailing
Starting in early summer 2008, I sailed very happily with the new sail
for several weekends. Whenever I rigged the sail, I made certain that
the farrow of the lower mast half was fully inserted into the top; I
do this routinely with all of my masts for the past >10 years.

Part V: Mast breaks on land
In August the mast broke (on land) ~10 minutes after I had rigged the
sail. The breakage occurred at the bottom of the farrow. I contacted
John of WW for a warranty exchange (emailed him pictures as well).

Part VI: "Only our Chinese masts break at the farrow"
In September 2008 John of Windwing responded by email; we also spoke
by phone. He stated that "only our Chinese masts break at the farrow".
However, their Italian masts would never break at the farrow.
Therefore, he claimed, the only explanation for the failure of the
mast was, that I must have mishandled it. He did not offer a refund
and suggested that I buy a new mast from him (with a minor discount on
the list price).

Part VII: Starting to make stuff up.
John also became defensive on the phone. He started to make up
allegations against me as a customer, e.g., that I had mishandled the
original FF sails. He became loud, interrupted me frequently. Finally
he complained that I was "lecturing" him. Maybe John has bad
recollections of "lecturing" from school or college...(sorry John).
But he was clearly not professional. (Certainly, this was a way to get
me off the phone, though.)

Part VIII: Still selling FF sails, WW website same as >2 years ago; Is
Windwing still a live business?
I had a look at www.windwing.com. Their website looks the same as two
years ago. They are still selling more of the old problem Formula FF
sails.

Part IX: QUESTION TO OTHER WINDSURFERS
Same experience with Windwing? If you have a chance, post your comment
here or email me at Wind4Waves at gmail (the usual domain extension).
Maybe I was just unlucky but I do not hink so. I have had sails
(including FF) from Sailworks, Gaastra, Severne, Neil Pryde, and Maui
Sails. Neil Pryde's durability was mediocre (but lasted at least 1-2
seasons before repairs needed). All others I had very good experience
with. Therefore, I conclude that Windwing might be a problem company
in regards to their manufacturing quality.

Part X: Bottom line on Windwing
>$1100 lost. No rig. Many emails. Getting yelled at.

Part III: Exchange of

[outdrsmn]

I have never had a problem with Windwing products. I haven't owned a
Gulftech mast though, I use Nolimitz. I haven't heard of any problems
other than what John stated about the China made stuff. Of course cost
does reflect quality more times than not.
The website thing is a little annoying. It is like they have forgotten
about it. I keep hearing rumors of a new online store but I have yet
to see it. It seems like a pretty small operation where they do it all
themselves so that could have something to do with it. I've always
thought they had a decent product and with a little more exposure they
can compete with the big boys. I have the Bash sails and still have a
nearly 10 year old Synthesis that I use regularly. I'll be buying a
Hammer 8.3 to replace my 7.8 for next seasons light wind days. As far
as durability their stuff seems pretty bomber to me.

[Cliff Frost]

You should be aware that for many years the person behind Windwing was Bill Hansen,
and he designed and built great gear. The person behind Gulftech was Don McCormick
and he did the same.

At some point a few years ago those companies were purchased by John Chao, of
American Windsurfer fame. Both Bill and Don stayed with the companies but after
a while (a year or two) both left.

So Windwing and Gulftech do NOT have the same design guys behind them they used to.

If you want bomber sails like the old windwings, with folks who stand behind them
and provide excellent customer service, go to:

http://www.hansensails.com/

If you want great carbon gear, I hear Maui Sails makes the best boom right now, but
HPL and Chinook and Streamlined have great reputations. Maui Sails' booms are made in
China so I don't think there has to be a problem with Chinese manufacture. (I have
loved my HPL booms and I tried a Maui Sails one yesterday and was thrilled by it. I
don't like the Streamlined boom head at all, but the quality and service of the company
is excellent.)

I have some Windwing sails and Gulftech masts from back when Bill and Don were still
with the companies and they are great. But I've heard too many stories like the one
told here and I won't be getting any more.

There are too many really good options out there to risk a bad experience.

Cheers,
Cliff

[Craig Goudie]

Just though I'd mention, Bill Hansen recommended a board to me that
has been my all time favorite board. The guy knows what he's talking
about, and I'd buy from Hansen
again. I can't comment on Windwing these days (other than to say they
moved down towards the water front). They do appear to sell some
sails and booms at deep discounts.

-Craig

On Sep 14, 6:27 pm, Cliff Frost <cl...@malcolm.berkeley.edu> wrote:
> You should be aware that for many years the person behind Windwing was Bill Hansen,
> and he designed and built great gear.  The person behind Gulftech was Don McCormick
> and he did the same.
>
> At some point a few years ago those companies were purchased by John Chao, of
> American Windsurfer fame.  Both Bill and Don stayed with the companies but after
> a while (a year or two) both left.
>
> So Windwing and Gulftech do NOT have the same design guys behind them they used to.
>
> If you want bomber sails like the old windwings, with folks who stand behind them
> and provide excellent customer service, go to:
>
>    http://www.hansensails.com/
>

> - Show quoted text -

[Windinmysails]

Craig Goudie wrote:
> Just though I'd mention, Bill Hansen recommended a board to me that
> has been my all time favorite board. The guy knows what he's talking
> about, and I'd buy from Hansen
> again. I can't comment on Windwing these days (other than to say they
> moved down towards the water front). They do appear to sell some
> sails and booms at deep discounts.
>
> -Craig
>

So what's your favorite board?
Craig (near Buffalo)

[Craig Goudie]

It was a Logosz "Squish" (square tail fish). The 8'2"board was very
wide (for it's time), and the width
concerned me since I sail the Gorge most of the time, but the
combination of tail rocker, soft rails,
and a very thin board,
created a sweet sweet ride for fat Gorge swells, and the thing didn't
pound in chop either, just a smooth
turn machine (which is just my style). It was basically my one board
for Gorge conditions from 5.5 to 3.7,
which is what I sail about 90% of the time in the Gorge.
Unfortunately that board only lasted 5 seasons before the
skeg box went. I had another built by Gary Swanson (Cascade) with
tweeks of my own for better stability
which I've been riding the last 3 seasons, but those tweeks reduced
the looseness I loved. Sometimes you
should leave a good thing be.

-Craig

[hansen@......com]

Craig:
Glad you lliked the Squish! I still have my original and a new 8'0"
made last year.

For those interested, the design came from a post-sesh ride home from
Arlington with Jeff Johnson. As surfers, we wondered why no one made a
classic (short) surfboard 'fish' shape for windsurfing. What we wanted
was a board that would coast on Gorge swells for extended downwind
surfing style rides without stalling out at the bottom in the wind
shadow. We felt a shorter, wider board with a square tail and mast
further back would do this but were concerned about it losing control
in high winds so we figured more rocker and a slight 'V' would be
necessary. That evening by chance I mentioned it to Tony Logosz and he
was very excitied saying he had always wanted to try it. The next day,
out of the blue and without even ordering, he had already shaped one
at Cascade in Mosier and wanted to know what color? A few days later,
Jeff and I took the new Squish to Roosevelt on a fairly good day. One
ride and we sold our Petty 8'6" epoxies (which were highly respected
'Gorge' boards) and never rode anything else after. A half dozen
Squishes were made and sold in the Windwing shop that year. Gary
Swanson still has the templates and will gladly make one for anyone
interested. Local craftsmanship, local design and a great all-round
board.

On a sad note, Jeff passed away in a mountain biking accident several
years ago and is sorely missed by those who knew him. But, the Squish
lives on thanks to his enthusiasm for pure Gorge wind 'surfing.'

- Bill Hansen