F2 Thommen 305 vs AHD 310
sailquik (Roger Jackson)
Last weekend , at Dewey Beach, Del. I finally got the opportunity to
go head to head with an AHD 310.
Vital statistics:
F2
Sailor wght: 150#
Board: F2 Thommen 305
Fin: 46cm North Shore Reverse profile blade.
Sail: 8.2 North IQ3D
Mast North Xcellerator 500cm
Boom: Chinook
AHD
Sailor wght: 180+
Board: AHD 310
Fin: stock AHD 48cm
Sail: Aerotech 8.0
Mast:?????
Boom: ????
Conditions: Flat water minor chop
Wind: 8-12 variable.
I spoke with the guy who had the AHD 310 on Friday, and he said he
would be back on Sat. so we could compare boards, on the water.
As the wind was coming up, I sailed the 305 for a while and then went
in to see if the AHD 310 guy was going to sail with me.
He was ready and we took off on a close reach. The 305 kinda
outdistanced him in around 8-10 mph so he stopped and made some
adjustments, and I caught up with him on another run. Slightly off the
wind, I was able to pull away quite easily.
Hard upwind, I could stay ahead of him, stay right behind him, but due
to his bigger fin (I think) I was unable to sail past above him as he
would head up pinch me off, and I couldn't get by below him due to
dirty air. That was on one run only.
On all the other runs I was able to sail away from the 310 very
easily, and if the wind droped much below 10 I was able to really
leave him as he was falling off plane, or couldn't get up on a plane
while I was in the straps and really cookin.
Maybe the weight difference was a factor, maybe not, but as the wind
came up, except for the one hard upwind run, I had no problem sailing
away.
Then I found a 295 AHD with a 7.8 North, and proceeded to get by him,
very slowly, but I got by, in around 12-14 mph windspeed..
The 305 Thommen just continues to amaze me. Mostly due to me learning
how to sail it. I worked on jibes on the 305 in Hatteras the previous
weekend, and once you leran what you can and cannot do (especially at
my weight) it jibes very smoothly and predictably and planes out of 12
mph wind speed jibes very easily.
Try the 305, it will probably triple your planing days!!
sailquik (Roger Jackson) US 3704 MD Ph#(301) 872-9459
US Sail L1 WS Instructor NC Ph#(919) 995-3204
F2/Thommen boards;North Sails/Rigs;T.A./Rainbow Fins
FyG©
Before I even read this I knew what good old Roger was going to say
"Thommen 305 kicks AHD 310's butt."
Keep plugging those F2's Roger.
FyG©
Eric Warshower
guys,
Forget the Thommen, The new AHD 300 kicks but. I have living proof that
the 300 dominates. After days of training on the South Coast of PR and
hard core racing in San Juan, the AHD 300 (two riders) kicked
everybody's but.
Eric
--
\\|//
(o o)
--oOOo-(_)-oOOo--------------------------------------------------
Vicom Puerto Rico
phone: (787) 728-5252
fax: (787) 728-2830
Charlie Escher
spoke with the guy who had the AHD 310 on Friday, and he said he would be back on Sat. so we could compare boards, on the water. As the wind was coming up, I sailed the 305 for a while and then went in to see if the AHD 310 guy was going to sail with me. He was ready and we took off on a close reach. The 305 kinda outdistanced him in around 8-10 mph so he stopped and made some adjustments, and I caught up with him on another run. Slightly off the wind, I was able to pull away quite easily. Hard upwind, I could stay ahead of him, stay right behind him, but due to his bigger fin (I think) I was unable to sail past above him as he would head up pinch me off, and I couldn't get by below him due to dirty air. That was on one run only. On all the other runs I was able to sail away from the 310 very easily, and if the wind droped much below 10 I was able to really leave him as he was falling off plane, or couldn't get up on a plane while I was in the straps and really cookin. Maybe the weight difference was a factor, maybe not, but as the wind came up, except for the one hard upwind run, I had no problem sailing away.
Roger, interesting but not a real valid methodology.I used to run a test program for a sail maker ( Bill Whidden), did some testing for AHD years ago ( I have no ax to grind either way concerning them, don't use their stuff), and watched both Dunkerbeck and the North team on Maui last summer doing testing.Everyone used the same basic method: 1) Establish a baseline so that the two sailors are as equally matched as possible (note that this may require 2 Thommens and/or 2 AHDs). 2) Let one sailor at a time change ONE variable at a time,while the other acts as the control.3) if this is not practical, then sailors swap one piece of equipment at a time.4)Then you reverse the last test and try again.In the real world very few people do all that, but at least swapping boards would answer a lot of questions.That requires very good sailors who can just jump on an unfamiliar board and get anywhere near full potential from it. I enjoy your posts very much, don't want to come off as critical or smartass; I think Hatteras is a great place for testing since swaps are so easy to pull off in the shallows.Now, if that 180 pounder can plane away from you on a smaller sail on the Thommen, you'll really know how special it is. The fact that both these boards work well at all in that amount of wind is certainly impressive to me.
I was lucky enough to have a roomate who was a team rider for all the same companies as I was (I am not currently sponsored by anyone).Our weights were within ten pounds or so, we're both real skinny dudes.He was havin' a hell time trying to break forty mph on the speed course (100m).All our gear was as identical as we could make it,except for the fin. I gave him my entire setup; he went 40.05 on his first run, equalling my best speed of the day to the hundredth of a mile per hour.That would be a good example of setting a baseline.BTW, I still made him buy the beer that night...
I'm jealous that you're doing ANY sort of tests right now, I'm diggin' out from under 2+ feet of snow right now and sailing is at least a couple of months down the road for me.
______________________________________________
Charlie Escher // Beautiful Bingen, Washington
______________________________________________
Charlie Escher
sailquik (Roger Jackson)
>Forget the Thommen, The new AHD 300 kicks but. I have living proof that
>the 300 dominates. After days of training on the South Coast of PR and
>hard core racing in San Juan, the AHD 300 (two riders) kicked
>everybody's but.
Eric:
Does AHD have a web site?
I'd like to know the volume and width of the 300.
Also, how many equally good sailors were in this training/hard core racing
scenario were on 305 Thommens with similar sized sails?
Oh, and yes, the big question, what was the windspeed for these events?
The 305 Thommen shines in under 14 mph. I have other much faster Thommens
for 14+ MPH.
Later
sailquik (Roger Jackson) US 3704 |Ph#in MD 301-872-9459
F2/North Sails/ True Ames/Rainbow|Ph#in NC 919-995-3204
US Sail Lvl 1 WS Instructor
sailquik (Roger Jackson)
Charlie and others:
I have to apologize for the tardiness of this and about 4 other posts that
showed up last nite with my name on them.
The net had slowed to almost a complete stop, and I was hunting around to
see if the problem was mine or just the net in general.
Well, I found a button that said " post queued messages" and since I
thought some of my posts might be hidden there, I pushed the button, and
out jumped about 4-6 posting from way back in early October. Sorry!
As for establishing a baseline on the 305/310, I fully agree with you. That
was my original intent, was to trade boards. and maybe rigs and see if
things stayed the same, but when I cam in to the beach, the guy was packing
up to go home.
Maybe he was the local lite air fast guy, and didn't like some outsider
coming to his beach and going faster.
If anyone ever wants to schedule a more realistic test, I'm game. I have a
SpeedMate, several anemometers, and can do a fairly realistic analysis of
the conditions, and hopefully keep the tests as objective as possible.
If anyone knows where I can get some very small low powered radio telemetry
transmitters/receivers, I'd really like to set up a complete test program
for use at whatever site I'm sailing. Not just for me, but for anyone who
wants to really find out how their gear performs.
I really think this would be a neat setup, as then different boards could
be compared, considering nearly all the factors, in a very real time,
almost test lab like manner.
I can come up with the computer to record the data, and the digital data
devices to gather the data, I just need an elecronics or radio telemetry
expert to help me get the data from the devices to the computer on shore.
Anyone got any great ideas on how this can be accomplished??
later Roger
Olly gyber
yes good old roger keeps on plugging that 305 well how about this . try
compairing it against the new fanatic 304 falcon .
olly.
sailquik (Roger Jackson)
On 19 Jan 1998 04:50:01 GMT, olly...@aol.com (Olly gyber) wrote:
>yes good old roger keeps on plugging that 305 well how about this . try
>compairing it against the new fanatic 304 falcon .
>
olly:
I'd be happy to. Just send a new 304 Falcon along to my address in
Hatteras, and I'll compare them next weekend, weather providing.
Oh, yeah, send yourself and some kit along so we can make this a really
objective test, and no I probably won't send the 305 Thommen back with you.
I'm sure you'll like it, and want it, but it's mine, until Mr. Thommen
designs something faster.
Since I seriously doubt I can realistically expect a 304 Falcon in my
mailbox, I will check with the Fanatic Dealer in Avon, as soon as they open
back up, and see if I can borrow one to test against the 305.
Sorry, best I can come up with at the moment!
Regards:
CMason2808
Eric,
Please elaborate on the specifics of your testing comparison, as I am presently
considering purchasing these boards or possibly Berky 295 EP. Any and all info
appreciated.
Aloha,
Chuck
Cmaso...@aol.com
2 Rad Inc. c/o Bruno Robida
Fanatic has the best construction on the market. To compare the F2 Th 305
and the Falcon 304, they are both miles apart in construction, weight,
stiffness, component package. Anyways, both boards being equal in shape,
the Fanatic is money well spent. The F2 isn't even a full sandwich, only
bottom, and the decks have always been their problem. The F2 is way too
wide to perform extremely well upwind. the Fanatic is more stretched. F2
needs 175ltrs for a light wind, Fanatic Falcon 304 has 161ltrs. Thats got
to say something. From F2's point of view, the 305 is built for the common
mortal to still have fun on, but the Fanatic is built for racing.
Bruno
www.2-Rad.com
Olly gyber wrote:
> yes good old roger keeps on plugging that 305 well how about this . try
> compairing it against the new fanatic 304 falcon .
>
> olly.
ja...@velauno.com
Chuck:
It is obvious that you are looking for a high performance course-slalom
board. Your choices so far are very good. In PR we have a strong
contingent of Berky and AHD fanatics. I believe I can offer you a fair
assesment of the AHDs and the Berkys. Most Berky sailors here are very
well trained, use the best mast, boom and fin combinations and spend a
lot of time tuning their equipment and practicing. Down here we don’t do
much reaching. All or our sailing is upwind- downwind.
Most of the surviving Berkys here are custom boards. They are beautifully
finished, very light and extremely fragile. On the other hand nearly all
the production Berkys have fallen apart. Most have been traded for custom
Berkys or AHDs. I must add that Pat (Berky) has been very good about
honoring warranties. Although there is a strong F2/Mistral dealer here
thus far a few of those raceboards have been sold and none of those to
racers. The Berky customs run about $1600 (with pads) plus delivery
(might be more). The lead time for a custom is about 4 months. I don't
think that you can buy a production Berky raceboard anymore (I think
Berky is out building production boards) but I believe you will be able
to get a production Berky freeride built by Pro Tech (best board builder
in America, maybe the world!) in few months.
The new AHD 300 ($1550 with Straps, pads and 44cm Fins carbon race fin)
has only been available for a few months but has racked up an impressive
racing record thus far. Frenchman Antoine Albeau (NP, AHD) won the course
racing portion of the 1997 Production World Championships in December.
That event was held in gusty conditions and sailed with sails in the
7.8-8.3 range.
In Puerto Rico the Berky team (on customs and using Neil Pryde VX3's) has
been squaring off with the AHD group (using VX3s) for some time now. In
the beginning the Berky guys were pretty much dominating. They had been
sailing the same equipment longer and were more in tune. Lately however
the AHD group has overtaken as the fastest upwind downwind performers.
This is of course without a sophisticated testing method, just one on one
testing for weeks. After all this sailing I can't really say that the AHD
is faster than the Berky Custom 288. But there is no doubt that they are
not slower. Take note that these Berkys are similar to the Berkys used in
the World Cup, a far cry from Berky production boards.
Of the AHD I can say that they feature impeccable true sandwich
construction and a beautiful finish. They are probably stronger and
longer lasting while being significantly less expensive. They come ready
to race and with a 1 year warranty. Oh, and you don’t have to wait for 4
months to get one!
AHD 300s are easy to sail, go upwind and down like a rocket and gybe very
easily considering the 140 liter volume. Reaching speed is exceptional
and so is their range. I weigh about 175 pounds and I can get planning in
about 7 knots with an 8.3. I haven’t tried an 8.7 yet. I have sailed this
board in up to 22 knots with a 7.4 and found it to be very easy to
control. It has a lot of nose rocker so sailing through steep high chop
at high speed is a surprisingly relaxed experience.
If you ask dealers that sell AHD, Mistral and F2 which board they choose
for themselves I’m sure you will find that most pick the AHD. It is no
coincidence. Do yourself a favor a try a lot of boards before you fork
over your hard earned cash. Visit your nearby AHD for a test sail or at
the very least call Adventure Sports at 305-591-3922 and ask them for the
killer AHD catalog. Tell them Jaime, PR 11 sent you.
Jaime
-------------------==== Posted via Deja News ====-----------------------
http://www.dejanews.com/ Search, Read, Post to Usenet
Markus Huhtinen
Charlie Escher wrote:
Charlie Escher wrote:
> Roger, interesting but not a real valid methodology...
Last fall me and 4 of my racing friends got together to do some testing
on 8 m2+ sails and course slalom boards. We were swapping equipment
constantly and got some interesting results. We found out that some
boards clearly work better with some sails, and you really have to judge
the whole combo instead of just the hull. Just as you mentioned the trim
of the entity of board and rig has really strong effect on your
performance.
I think Roger got some valid results, though. According to my experience
on racing the AHD 310, his statements are correct. I think this board
could always be pinched super close to the wind. This often gave me the
edge right after the starts when we were fighting for that clean air.
In USWA Nationals last July I often rounded the windwark mark among top
ten, but I always lost ground on those long dead-downwind runs. I know
that some of my friends are much faster on reaches with a similar board,
but I feel that this 310 is very difficult to sail fast on broad
reaches. The board is relatively heavy and it's nose is difficult to
keep above the backs of the waves.
My fellow competitors kept buying the 310s during the summer once they
saw how well we did using the board. Their results improved almost
immediately. This suggest, that the 310 is very easy to sail effectively
upwind and does not require much practice.
Last winter I thought that I would need 2 course boards for the season,
but I ended up using only 310 in the races. Those new big boards have a
remarkable range, and I suspect that Thommen might be even better than
310 when the wind starts to blow. Course races are rarely run in Europe
once the wind speed exeeds 20 kts, and anything below that these big
boards can handle well.
Markus Huhtinen
L-10
Joensuu, Finland
sailquik (Roger Jackson)
Chuck:
Which boards did you want comparisons on, the lite air planing high volume
race boards (ie 310 AHD; 305 Thommen; 300 Protec; 304 Mistral etc) or the
lite wind full race boards (ie 295 Thommen; AHD 300 Pro Race; 295 Berky
EP).
Glad you asked this question, as there is a significant difference in
volume, width, and overall design concept between the two groups of boards
that some here on rec.ws may not understand.
The first group (AHD 310/Thommen 305/300 Protec) are designed with
extremely high volume 160-180 liters), and are very wide to be the earliest
planing boards on the water. They are designed for windspeeds less than 12
(actually they all plane in around 8 or less with an 8.5+ rig.).
The 2nd group are all out lite air race boards and are at their best in 10
mph and over.
They have moderate volume (around 120-130 liters) and are at least 2 inches
narrower.
It would seem to me a sailor has to decide which discipline they are
interested in and go after the best board for that discipline.
Otherwise, any comparison is like comparing apples to oranges!
sailquik (Roger Jackson)
Bruno:
>Fanatic has the best construction on the market.
By who's measure, and to what criteria?? Can you quantify this somehow?
To compare the F2 Th 305 and the Falcon 304, they are both miles apart in
construction, weight, stiffness, component package.
Miles apart???
Construction?? What's better about the Fanatic construction??
Weight?? T305 18.7 lbs (8.5 kg.) vs Falcon 304 HCS 17 lbs (7.7 kg)
Sure the Thommen 305 weighs more , it's 1.4" wider, and has 18 liters
greater volume, and probably planes significantly earlier.
Stiffness?? Boards this thick are inherently stiff, how can they not be.
Can you tell us what this additional stiffness actually does in terms of
sailing the 304 in under 12 mph windspeed?
Anyways, both boards being equal in shape,the Fanatic is money well spent.
How is something that, I would guess, doesn't plane as early of more value
in an early planing board.
The F2 isn't even a full sandwich, only bottom, and the decks have always
been their problem.
I've had the Thommen 305 since the end of July, and have sailed it many
many miles in all sorts of conditions, some appropriate for a board like
this, some definitely not appropriate. No dings, no deck dents, nothing.
Seems strong enough to me. It's not a wave or B&J board for gosh sakes.
The F2 is way too wide to perform extremely well upwind.
In who's opinion. Not much goes higher than the 305, with the right rig and
fin. Yes, Imco's in subplaning conditions. But not many, if any,
shortboards I've encountered.
The Fanatic is more stretched.
My magazine calls this "Center Volume Concept" . Maybe it's the new best
way to go, but I distinctly reminds me of large shortboards 5-10 years ago.
None of the other manufacturers have used this concept. Is there a
reason???
>F2needs 175ltrs for a light wind, Fanatic Falcon 304 has 161ltrs.
My T 305 has 179 liters, and needs them all to plane before any other
board on the water.
> Thats got to say something. From F2's point of view, the 305 is built
> for the common mortal to still have fun on, but the Fanatic is built for racing.
Gee, that's one of the things I've always liked best about the T305. It
sails like a real board, jibes rather nicely, and is fun to sail. And it
planes as early or earlier than any other board I've been able to find.
Kinda nice to be out having fun, planing, cranking nice planing jibes,
while the rest are sitting on the beach waiting for wind.
O.K. gang the question is, do I want something thats fun to sail, and
planes early, and jibes fairly nice, and has adequte durability, or
do I want a better built, stiffer, wider in the middle "race" board?
Your choice, but I still want to test one, head to head against the T 305.
Laurence Robinson
In article <34C396...@huhtine.pp.fi>, Markus Huhtinen
<mar...@huhtine.pp.fi> writes
--If you're testing two boards in the same category the best sailor will allways
win-technique is 80% of the contest. Engage in a thorough testing session with
three or four people using proper empirical testing and you will bore yourselves
stupid. As a general rule match your weight to the volume ie the heavier guy
will benefit more from the AHD overall.
Laurence Robinson
Markus Huhtinen
> --If you're testing two boards in the same category the best sailor will allways
> win-technique is 80% of the contest.
All the guys involved in our testing session were experienced racers. It
was quite a suprise to me how big difference the equipment and tuning
actually made.
> Engage in a thorough testing session with
> three or four people using proper empirical testing and you will bore >yourselves stupid.
How is it in real life? It seems to me that some manufacturesrs simply
copy a succesfull custom prototype and put it into production never
thinking what makes the board-rig-sailor combination so fast. Do they do
any "empirical testing"?
> As a general rule match your weight to the volume ie the heavier guy
> will benefit more from the AHD overall.
Yes, that's true. But very light guys were just smoking the fleet on
310's when bigger guys simply could not plane even on long boards. Is
that a benefit? No races should have been run in those conditions, but
still...
I still think a racer should have enough experience and self-confidence
to go back and tune his equipment instead of blaming his weight or his
gear. Very good and succesful sailors make anything work and they are
fast on just about every brand they try. Julian Anderson, to name one
sailor, is at the top of British ladder no matter what board or rig he
sails.
Markus Huhtinen
Charlie Escher
Laurence Robinson wrote:
> --If you're testing two boards in the same category the best sailor will allways
> win-technique is 80% of the contest.
>
If you've ever watched Dunkerbeck testing gear, you would find this
statement a bit hard to swallow,he definitely doesn't always win. Ken
Winner once told a group of us that he thought getting to the upwind
mark first was 85% equipment-related,and I have personally witnessed a
five m.p.h. reversal in speeds between two sailors who merely swapped
boards "in the same category".Are you saying that sails, fins, and
tuning are irrelevant?
> Engage in a thorough testing session with
> three or four people using proper empirical testing and you will bore yourselves
> stupid.
>
True enough, since by definition one or two of you will be sitting
around at any given time. It takes a certain mentality to do that sort
of testing. One big reason I stopped competing was that the demands of
proper testing were just too great; I used to watch Mike and the PWR
crew testing in the Gorge, it took a pretty big crew to get it done.My
hat's off to anyone who takes the time to do it right. If it bores you,
don't do it.
> As a general rule match your weight to the volume ie the heavier guy
> will benefit more from the AHD overall.
>
Perhaps, but we'll never really know unless they swap boards.Anyway, the
consensus seems to support Roger's results ,so I will gladly bow out of
this thread and go back to what I love best, which is high wind
sailing...
Good sailing to you,
sailquik (Roger Jackson)
>Perhaps, but we'll never really know unless they swap boards.Anyway, the
>consensus seems to support Roger's results ,so I will gladly bow out of
>this thread and go back to what I love best, which is high wind
>sailing...
Charlie, and others:
My biggest problem is finding the "other" boards to test.
I'd run my own tests, head to head, but unless you are someone with
"universal" connections in the industry, walking into a shop or calling a
rep and saying "Can I borrow an AHD 310 to test?" gets you a blank stare,
and another question.
The next question is "You want to do what"? and then "You want to test it
against what", and then " What kind of test are you going to do", and the
last two questions are, "and are you still going to report the results if
it's faster," and "you are going to report the results where?"
So, unless you find someone who has one, AND that person is willing to
"test " with you and let you sail his brand new toy, and change rigs, and
change fins, if the fin bases are compatable, then really thorough testing
is kinda difficult.
I will still continue to try, as it's kinda fun to sail different things,
and it's good for my skills to always "push the limits" so to speak.
We are seeing more and more of the WS indusrty " heavy hitters" on the
various forums online, but I'm not sure they realize the potential of tests
reported here as being anything but "some guy or gals personal
experiences."
Anyway, enough rhetoric.
Hey, just checked out the new North 98 Website.
Great photos, most of the new stuff is in there.
One small error though. Somehow they seem to have used the wrong units or
the wrong punctuation for weights of almost all the items.
If you look at the specs. for the Viper masts, it really ought to read as
follows, I think:
Length Weight IMCS
430 (14.11 Ft) 1.300 Kg (2.866 Lbs) 22CC
460 (15.09 Ft) 1.500 Kg (3.307 Lbs) 25CC
490 (16.08 Ft) 1.700 Kg (3.748 Lbs) 28CC
510 (16.73 Ft) 1.900 Kg (4.189 Lbs) 30CC
Imagine if you will a 430 2 pc mast that weighs under 3 pounds,
or a 510 cm 2pc mast that weighs just over 4 pounds. That's lite!
http://www.north-windsurf.com
Later
sailquik (Roger Jackson) |Ph # in Md. (301) 872-9459
Lvl 1 WS Instructor | in N.C. (919) 995-3204
F2/North Sails/Rigs/True Ames/ Rainbow
Cris Pavloff
>Laurence Robinson wrote:
>
>> --If you're testing two boards in the same category the best sailor will allways
>> win-technique is 80% of the contest.
>>
>If you've ever watched Dunkerbeck testing gear, you would find this
>statement a bit hard to swallow,he definitely doesn't always win. Ken
>Winner once told a group of us that he thought getting to the upwind
>mark first was 85% equipment-related,and I have personally witnessed a
>five m.p.h. reversal in speeds between two sailors who merely swapped
>boards "in the same category".Are you saying that sails, fins, and
>tuning are irrelevant?
All of this crap is why we have one-design racing. It would be kind
of neat to have a high-wind one-design class on the PWA, with the gear
being updated every year.
Laurence Robinson
In article <34CA84FB...@linkport.com>, Charlie Escher
<charl...@linkport.com> writes
>If you've ever watched Dunkerbeck testing gear, you would find this
>statement a bit hard to swallow,he definitely doesn't always win. Ken
>Winner once told a group of us that he thought getting to the upwind
>mark first was 85% equipment-related,and I have personally witnessed a
>five m.p.h. reversal in speeds between two sailors who merely swapped
>boards "in the same category".Are you saying that sails, fins, and
>tuning are irrelevant?
>
>
>
-Charlie,
You've missed the point. If you saw the British tennis player Tim Henman being
interviewed after losing in the first round of the Australian open this week you
will recall his words "I have to play better tennis than this" obvoius but he
did'nt blame anything but himself, not the racket, nor the balls, nor the
overhead sunshine nor the biased support from the crowd.
How often have you wiped the opposition off the water only to be confronted on
the beach with comments like:- you had a better board, I was overpowered, etc
when you know full well that this sailor tuned his equipment badly and made a
crap start.
My standpoint here is that people are not looking at themselves to improve their
sailing but getting embroiled in the idea that the quickest way to go faster or
improve their gybing is to use a different gear.
Laurence Robinson
TomBuckOb2
>You've missed the point. If you saw the British tennis player Tim
Henmanbeing
>interviewed after losing in the first round of the Australian open this week
you
>will recall his words "I have to play better tennis than this" obvoius but he
>did'nt blame anything but himself, not the racket, nor the balls, nor the
>overhead sunshine nor the biased support from the crowd.
Laurence:
Of course in tennis, the equipment is a much smaller contributor than in WS -
and all other conditions are identical for the two competitors.
Tom O'Brien - Chicago
Keith Meder
Laurence Robinson wrote:
>
> In article <34CA84FB...@linkport.com>, Charlie Escher
> <charl...@linkport.com> writes
> >If you've ever watched Dunkerbeck testing gear, you would find this
> >statement a bit hard to swallow,he definitely doesn't always win. Ken
> >Winner once told a group of us that he thought getting to the upwind
> >mark first was 85% equipment-related,and I have personally witnessed a
> >five m.p.h. reversal in speeds between two sailors who merely swapped
> >boards "in the same category".Are you saying that sails, fins, and
> >tuning are irrelevant?
> >
>
> >
> >
>
> -Charlie,
>
> interviewed after losing in the first round of the Australian open this week you
> will recall his words "I have to play better tennis than this" obvoius but he
> did'nt blame anything but himself, not the racket, nor the balls, nor the
> overhead sunshine nor the biased support from the crowd.
>
> the beach with comments like:- you had a better board, I was overpowered, etc
> when you know full well that this sailor tuned his equipment badly and made a
> crap start.
>
> My standpoint here is that people are not looking at themselves to improve their
> sailing but getting embroiled in the idea that the quickest way to go faster or
> improve their gybing is to use a different gear.
>
>
> Laurence Robinson
If equipment isn't the key factor, why to they spend so much time and
money each year trying to develope new boards(faster planing and upwind)
and new sails (more powererful and more stable in wide wind conditions)?
Keith
Joe Blanchard
My sentiments exactly.....my dad (age 58) is a classic case of "if I buy the
best equipment....I will be a lot better". I'm a firm believer in improving
ones technique, and knowing how to "tweak" your equipment to its full
potential.
Joe B.
Laurence Robinson wrote in message
<+$Z96AATd...@lazzzzzz.demon.co.uk>...
mwlowe
Why take sides, just do both.
Buy the best equipment you can afford, and learn to perfect all other
aspects of rigging, tuning and efficient sailing.
Charlie Escher
Laurence Robinson wrote:
> -Charlie,
>
> You've missed the point. If you saw the British tennis player Tim Henman being
> interviewed after losing in the first round of the Australian open this week you
> will recall his words "I have to play better tennis than this" obvoius but he
> did'nt blame anything but himself, not the racket, nor the balls, nor the
> overhead sunshine nor the biased support from the crowd.
>
-Laurence,
You will oftentimes see pro tennis players change their rackets whenever
they hit so much as one bad shot ; whether the next one is any better or
not, it is just human nature to want any possible edge available to you
through better equipment.Remember the big deal Michael Chang made about
his racket change a few years ago?
> How often have you wiped the opposition off the water only to be confronted on
> the beach with comments like:- you had a better board, I was overpowered, etc
> when you know full well that this sailor tuned his equipment badly and made a
> crap start.
>
When I was competing in speedsailing, I was a skinny guy sailing mostly
on stock Bic equipment. I didn't whine (too much) about whatever anyone
else was on, I tried to maximize my performance through intensive
testing of my gear and my technique at every available opportunity.Not
too many people made comments about me being on better equipment, I can
assure you.But this certainly is a common thing to see.
> My standpoint here is that people are not looking at themselves to improve their
> sailing but getting embroiled in the idea that the quickest way to go faster or
> improve their gybing is to use a different gear.
>
For better or worse, extensive testing and experience have convinced me
that the quickest way (for me) to go faster and improve jibing _is_ to
use the best available gear, meaning of course that which is best suited
to my size and technique.There were some attempts made around here to
generate interest in one-design speed events. This never really caught
on, so I guess that does validate your viewpoint.The sort of racing
available to me involves an ever-escalating "arms race".I'd rather spend
the money to go visit my brother in the Grenadines,or to go back to
Maui. Different strokes and all that...when enough people blow by me,
I'm sure I will look into newer gear though, it's just a part of being
in the game. Of course, one can always opt out and just have a good time
on whatever they have, not a bad choice at all, IMO.Thanks for sharing
your viewpoint, that's what makes this group interesting.
Good sailing to you,
clive
> >If equipment isn't the key factor, why to they
spend so much time and
> >money each year trying to develope new
boards(faster planing and upwind)
> >and new sails (more powererful and more stable in
wide wind conditions)?
> >
> >Keith
For the more stability part, it's a matter of comfort.
I bet I'd be much more comfortable cruising with a
couple of cams in the sleeve, rather than my dacron
RAF.
For the better upwind part, it's a matter of staying
upwind of the launch - anything to prevent a walk (or
swim) of shame can never hurt.
For the power part and earlier planing part, it's
always nice to get gear that has a wide wind range -
able to plane in 6 knots, sailable to over 20 means
less money has to be spent on gear in the long run.
Also, look at it from a business sense. What
manufacturer is going to claim "Sure our gear doesn't
plane as quick, is less stable and couldn't go upwind
if it got caught in fishing line and was dragged by a
troller, but who cares - gear only counts for 10% of
your sailing ability anyway."?
Gear is only a small percent of your ability if
there's only a year or two difference in it. Huge
percentage if you buy gear for the first time in ten
years.
Tune it right, rig it right and sail it right, new
gear will give you an edge over other sailors, but
believe me, if they have the least bit more experience
or skill, they're gonna smoke you!
Really good sailors who find their skill ladder
leveling off will appreciate gear with better speed
because they can use their already proper technique
and get a faster result without exerting more effort.
Beginners probably won't notice the improvement in
earlier planing, speed, etc, because they are learning
proper technique so quickly on their own the faster
speed comes naturally. It may just help them learn
quicker (can learn to plane in 12 knots of wind,
rather than 20 on old gear).
Having the skills to compliment your new gear couldn't
hurt one bit. Someone who can't pump a sail will
wonder why their Mach1 is getting slaughtered by pros
with wave sails.
Gear counts for, let's say, approx. 2% per year it's
new. Gear from 15 years ago is costing you 30% of
your potential sailing ability. Gear from last year
is costing you 2% of your potential sailing ability.
Does this sound right to everyone?
Clive
sailquik (Roger Jackson)
Big Snip.........
>Gear counts for, let's say, approx. 2% per year it's
>new. Gear from 15 years ago is costing you 30% of
>your potential sailing ability. Gear from last year
>is costing you 2% of your potential sailing ability.
>Does this sound right to everyone?
Clive:
Good post dude!
Lays it kinda right out on the line.
As for the percentages, I'd bump it to more like 4-5% per year, and
every once in a while someone comes up with something kinda revolutionary
and the percentage jumps a bit.
But getting the most performance and fun out of the gear you have is what
it's all about, so tuning, adjusting and learning what your gear can and
cannot do it where the tough decisions come in.
later
Roger
TomBuckOb2
Charlie Wrote
>...when enough people blow by me,
>I'm sure I will look into newer gear though, it's just a part of being
>in the game.
This is my rule of thumb wrt new gear - you'll know when its outdated. Not
likely next year or the year after that.
And of course the best thing is smokin other sailors on five year old gear -
especially old sails.
Martin Farrimond
Keith Meder wrote:
>
> Laurence Robinson wrote:
> >
> > In article <34CA84FB...@linkport.com>, Charlie Escher
> > <charl...@linkport.com> writes
> > >If you've ever watched Dunkerbeck testing gear, you would find this
> > >statement a bit hard to swallow,he definitely doesn't always win. Ken
> > >Winner once told a group of us that he thought getting to the upwind
> > >mark first was 85% equipment-related,and I have personally witnessed a
> > >five m.p.h. reversal in speeds between two sailors who merely swapped
> > >boards "in the same category".Are you saying that sails, fins, and
> > >tuning are irrelevant?
> > >
> >
> > >
> > >
> >
> >
> > You've missed the point. If you saw the British tennis player Tim Henman being
> > interviewed after losing in the first round of the Australian open this week you
> > will recall his words "I have to play better tennis than this" obvoius but he
> > did'nt blame anything but himself, not the racket, nor the balls, nor the
> > overhead sunshine nor the biased support from the crowd.
> >
> > the beach with comments like:- you had a better board, I was overpowered, etc
> > when you know full well that this sailor tuned his equipment badly and made a
> > crap start.
> >
> > sailing but getting embroiled in the idea that the quickest way to go faster or
> > improve their gybing is to use a different gear.
> >
> >
>
> If equipment isn't the key factor, why to they spend so much time and
> money each year trying to develope new boards(faster planing and upwind)
> and new sails (more powererful and more stable in wide wind conditions)?
>
> Keith
Am I being cynical, or do the manufacturers not really want to sell new
kit? They do this by creating faster etc stuff & then market it as such,
although only the top 2% of sailors can reap the benefits.
Martin Farrimond - K62
--
*** Remove "NOSPAM" from my email address to reply. ***
sailquik (Roger Jackson)
>Am I being cynical, or do the manufacturers not really want to sell new
>kit? They do this by creating faster etc stuff & then market it as such,
>although only the top 2% of sailors can reap the benefits.
>
Martin:
To some degree, on the around 9'-6" ; 120-130 liter lite air course
boards, which are mostly sailed at the bigger higher wind course racing
events, and perhaps on the World Cup, I would agree!
BUT!
The 305 Thommen; the AHD 310; Early Planer Protech and Berky; and perhaps
the Fanatic 304 HCS, are a whole new category of boards. These boards are
big, and wide, and plane way earlier than anything that existed before last
spring.
And now, Ken Winner/Eric Voight have introduced the AVS technology, and
both Seatrend and Roberts either have AVS boards, or will very soon, that
us mere mortals can go down and buy at our local dealers.
Both the ultra lite air planers, and the AVS boards are a major step
forward towards maximizing the time you can spend on the water, and the
quality (planing vs not planing) of that time spent.
Sure I can practice for course races on my longboard, when the wind is less
than 10 mph, and until these two new technologies arrived on the scene,
that was my only choice.
Now I can go out in 7or 8 mph, and be planing, fully in the straps, hooked
in to the harness lines and hanging out over the side , just ripping along
on perfectly flat water. THIS is WAY MORE FUN than practicing race stuff on
my longboard.
And, this is not for the top 2% of the sailors. These advances have far
more applicability to more sailors, and more locales than anything we've
seen an a bunch of years!
If you haven't tried one, do so, soon. It may end your cynicism, and open a
whole new realm of sailing experiences.
From my own individual experiences with the early planing boards, I can
assure you it will make you alot better sailor. You learn to sail
efficiently, cause if you don't, your mistakes will drop you off plane in
a heartbeat. You learn to read the wind a whole lot better, because working
the puffs can make all the difference whether you plane or not.
Want to work on planing jibes, but having trouble with the chop, etc.
Planing jibes are a piece of cake, in 12 mph super flat water.
OK, you might say but are skills learned at <12 mph any good at 20, or
25???
Sure they are. Jibing is about timing, board trim, and body english. So,
while things happen alot faster in 20, the moves are really similar, and
what works at 12, works almost as well at 20.
Sorry to get longwinded, but you kinda pushed a button here!!
Don Fukushima
Roger,
This thread is starting to get my attention! Spring is getting closer and
my name is moving up the Mike's Lab "want a board" list for this season, so
I am trying to decide how large a board to order. Out here I would probably
never run a sail any larger than a 8.2. I ran the 6.8 and 7.4 IQ3D last
season and they worked nearly all the time. There were about 5-10% of days
during the prime season and 10-20% during Sept-Oct where I could have used a
7.8 to be fully loaded up.
Mike started playing around with flappers after the Nats last year but did
not make any really radially wide ones like some out there. The quandry I
have is at 150 lbs, how much wind and chop can one sail these larger boards?
My current board can get pretty hard to keep in the water when the chop is
really huge and all the early lifting and maneuvering around the bad stuff
sometimes still gets you catching air.
What size sail and fin is the optimum for these boards?
sailquik (Roger Jackson) wrote in message
<34d257db...@news.ameritel.net>...
sailquik (Roger Jackson)
On Sat, 31 Jan 1998 08:05:58 -0800, "Don Fukushima" <df...@ix.netcom.com>
wrote:
>Roger,
>
>This thread is starting to get my attention! Spring is getting closer and
>my name is moving up the Mike's Lab "want a board" list for this season, so
>I am trying to decide how large a board to order. Out here I would probably
>never run a sail any larger than a 8.2. I ran the 6.8 and 7.4 IQ3D last
>season and they worked nearly all the time. There were about 5-10% of days
>during the prime season and 10-20% during Sept-Oct where I could have used a
>7.8 to be fully loaded up.
>
>Mike started playing around with flappers after the Nats last year but did
>not make any really radially wide ones like some out there. The quandry I
>have is at 150 lbs, how much wind and chop can one sail these larger boards?
>My current board can get pretty hard to keep in the water when the chop is
>really huge and all the early lifting and maneuvering around the bad stuff
>sometimes still gets you catching air.
>What size sail and fin is the optimum for these boards?
I think I heard somewhere that severl of the manufacturers are looking at
getting back into the "huge " sail business. I think NP has a 9.7 VX?? lite
air early planing sail that's out now. Aerotech still builds 10.0 and 11.0
sails for the Fla. lite wind crowd.
I'm looking at the new IQ3D 7.5 Formula 42 race sail for next years
events. It is supposed to have a better low end range, and since I'm your
size, and learned my lesson about me and 8.5 meter sails at the Mistrals in
St. Pete a couple of months ago,I think I will do better in open limited or
Formula 42 .
As for fins, I think 40-50 cm is common, and some of the AVS boards are
even using larger.
I'm looking forward to trying the AVS stuff as soon as it's avail. in
Hatteras.
For your conditions in the Bay area, something a little smaller, and
definitely narrower with AVS and a 40-50 cm fin might really be the ticket.
I'd guess we need to wait and see, or get Ken Winner/Eric Voight/Rob
Mulder/ Randy French to give us the latest developments in AVS.
Mulder has posted some fantastic speeds on one of his AVS designs, in the
Gorge I heard, like over 50 mph. If Rob can sail this fast, with enough
control, in the Gorge, think of the possiblites on flat water.
It sounds like Ziachek is looking at AVS as well. Could be a big
breaklthrough on the horizon, in terms of speeds, race results,
availability of the technology to the rest of us.
>sailquik (Roger Jackson) wrote in message
sailquik (Roger Jackson) US 3704 |Ph#in MD 301-872-9459
sailquik (Roger Jackson)
> The quandry I have is at 150 lbs, how much wind and chop can one sail these larger boards?
>My current board can get pretty hard to keep in the water when the chop is
>really huge and all the early lifting and maneuvering around the bad stuff
>sometimes still gets you catching air.
>What size sail and fin is the optimum for these boards?
I think I heard somewhere that several of the manufacturers are looking at
getting back into the "huge " sail business. I think NP has a 9.7 VX?? lite
air early planing sail that's out now. Aerotech still builds 10.0 and 11.0
sails for the Fla. lite wind crowd.
I'm looking at the new IQ3D 7.5 Formula 42 race sail for next years
events. It is supposed to have a better low end range, and since I'm your
size, and learned my lesson about me and 8.5 meter sails at the Mistrals in
St. Pete a couple of months ago,I think I will do better in open limited or
Formula 42 .
As for fins, I think 40-50 cm is common, and some of the AVS boards are
even using larger.
I'm looking forward to trying the AVS stuff as soon as it's avail. in
Hatteras.
For your conditions in the Bay area, something a little smaller, and
definitely narrower with AVS and a 40-50 cm fin might really be the ticket.
I'd guess we need to wait and see, or get Ken Winner/Eric Voight/Rob
Mulder/ Randy French to give us the latest developments in AVS.
Mulder has posted some fantastic speeds on one of his AVS designs, in the
Gorge I heard, like over 50 mph. If Rob can sail this fast, with enough
control, in the Gorge, think of the possiblites on flat water.
It sounds like Ziachek is looking at AVS as well. Could be a big
breaklthrough on the horizon, in terms of speeds, race results,
availability of the technology to the rest of us.
From what I've heard, these boards go up wind like rockets, and off the
wind as well, which may be their strongest point. They don' "stick" when
sailing nearly downwind. Jibing them is still a concern of mine, but the
word I have seen suggests that the newer designs jibe a whole lot better
than some of the prototypes.
Since I'm small, like you, keeping the board on the water is, as you
stated, a very big concern. With the 305 Thommen, I find just reducing the
fin size helps a whole bunch.
later
CMason2808
> it will make you alot better sailor.
A very good sailor once said to me "Light wind sailing is much harder than
sailing in stong winds".
Initially I thought he was crazy! Later I thought he was onto something.
Now don't get me wrong, I love to sail in strong winds and big waves, those are
the days we live for.
But the skills you learn in lightwind sailing can and do make you a better
strong wind sailor.
Pumping onto a plane, quick tacks, and learning to sail upwind in marginal
conditions, are all skills that I used the last time I got to sail in good
waves and strong wind.
The ability to sail upwind and downwind with speed and control, will help your
wave sailing when you want to go down the line
on a wave face.
Sailing with an adjustable downhaul and outhaul will teach you
so much about sail shape and how to best rig your wave
equipment.
I'd much rather go out and sail in 8kts and pump a 7.8 onto a plane than go to
a gym and lift weights.
The aerobic benefit and board handling skills you realize from sailing
aggressively with a large sail and board will certainly help you the next
time you get worked in the break.
Really it's all sailing. Do you think sitting on the beach waiting for strong-
perfect wind will make you a better sailor?
Aloha,
Chuck
sailquik (Roger Jackson)
Laurence Robinson
In article <19980201005...@ladder02.news.aol.com>, CMason2808
<cmaso...@aol.com> writes
-- Chuck
I agree. I predict that the light wind board will become the first board for
most sailors. I reckon my AHD310/VX3 8.7 doubled my slalom time on the water
last season. And I mean full on slalom, not like boring about on a long board.
Laurence Robinson
Markus
I agree. Looks like majority of windsurfers is finally finding out what
racers knew all along. Personally I've tried years to spread the message
about benefits of big course slalom boards and big race sails to anybody
willing to listen.
I do not think one should get the latest gear every year. But as a racer
I've noticed that biggest sails and boards get most planing hours during
the season. They may feel awkward and clumsy at the beginning of the
season, but normally you are perfectly in tune with them by September.
More you sail them the better you control them.
As many have commented, light wind planing is actually thrilling and
difficult art to master. Good equipment clearly helps, and us gear
junkies help the industry to finance their continuous research. And
lowering the planing threshold is crucial for the sport.
Now the interest among spectators is growing again. On a sunny warm
afternoon a gentle sea breeze is enough to get us planing. People on the
beach see the tremendeous speed we have and want to give windsurfing a
try. No longer do we need to seek isolated windy (and cold) places to
practice our lonely sport.