Definition of "overpowered"
charlesivey
definition of when the sail size is just too large to handle, but I am
interested in the idea of how to tell the fastest sail size -- one can
handle more but you are not as fast. What should we look for to determine
that just right size that matches conditions and board to give the best
performance speedwise. What should we look for that signals the best dialed
in performance? I know the largest sail I can hold onto is not the right
answer.
I'll start the discussion by saying the first hints of too much sail for me
is when gusts (which are always present to some degree) cause course
alterations such as forcing a bearing up to a higher AOA when you really do
not want the higher course -- but you have to take it to hang on. This is
when on a reach or upwind tack, of course, not downwind, when sheeting in
can help solve the problem. I sail this way a great deal of the time but
lately I am thinking this is not the fastest approach. If I rig for full
power in the lulls, I get too much in the gusts.
Any comments or suggestion?
CI
Rainman
right off the water and then smashed down on it again from about a metre
above?
Happened to me once on a six-0 with a fast narrow slalom board....so
overpowered, but the sail was a 6 cam race sail, so I just hung onto it as
the wind rose more and more, until the inevitable happened...
That day, I found out the upper limit to a NP 6-0 Racesail. :-)
R.
Website : http://www.botanybay.cjb.net
"charlesivey" <charl...@home.com> wrote in message
news:lGXS6.32045$aA5.1...@news1.rdc1.tx.home.com...
Glenn Woodell
charl...@home.com says...
>
>I'll start the discussion by saying the first hints of too much sail for me
>is when gusts (which are always present to some degree) cause course
>alterations such as forcing a bearing up to a higher AOA when you really do
>not want the higher course -- but you have to take it to hang on.
I would say that this would really be fully powered. You should eventually
learn to be able to hang on and bear off while still being in control, on the
verge of wipeout, in these conditions. That's about where you should be anyway.
Of course if you cannot handle it yet then you are over powered for your
ability but that is what you should probably strive for.
Glenn
Frank Weston
sail over-sheeted, you're positive you must be going wind speed in a 35 kt
gust, yet you're still accelerating. The fin starts to scream, and then
the rider.
Frank Weston
charlesivey wrote in message ...
westoz
prefer to sail a touch under powered rather than struggling with
overpowered, especially in waves and rough sea's, maybe flat water sailing
is a whole lot different - guess it depends on your conditions.
Tom.
shine
wind, sail or board - or any combination there of, where you are not comfortably
in control (key is "in control") you are overpowered. There are probably plenty
of technical descriptions- laws of physics - of overpowered. At some point,
with increasing wind, your rig's foil will begin to distort, and morph into a
giant ungulating, demonic beast that will thrash you like a rag doll (with
sissified pigtails to boot!). That is why a rig that will hold its foil will be
less likely to distort and can take more wind and still be "in control."
Shine
RMoore 41
>
>>I have a question about how to define being overpowered>
My definations:
1. continually spinning out and you got the best fin made.
2. Board suddenly "tail walking"
3. Having to continually carve up into the wind to stall the power.
4. Having a state of the art, properly tensioned sail ragging like a flag when
you sheet out in the gusts.
5. knowing that if you try to run downwind you will wreck even with good
technique.
6. Getting tossed over the handlebars when water starting.
Having the right gear for the job, tuning and high wind practice will minimize
these and expand your range.
WARDOG
In addition to sailing with a higher AOA to depower as you have
indicated, other hints for me include; starting to lose grip, forearms
pumped up with blood, fin loaded up with occasional spinouts, having to
alter my jibes by flying the sail downwind until the gust has passed,
difficulty waterstarting...having to waterstart with feet in the straps.
The surf zone presents an additional set of circumstances to factor in
because
the wind is often much lighter on the inside and you need to be powered
up to make it out, but then once you hit the wind line you find yourself
with too much sail. This is where floaty board with smaller sail is
sometimes an effective strategy. Sideoff conditions on the wave face
going down the line can become uncomfortable with too much sail when it
becomes difficult to turn
and heading out, even hitting small waves turn into huge airs.
I rig for the lulls myself, but it all depends on the differential
between lulls and gusts.....ie., steadiness.
I tune my Simmer wave sails with a little more downhaul for the gusts
and a little less outhaul for the lulls. Fortunately, we have pretty
steady wind
on the coast, but I have sailed in gusty spots like the Gorge and know
that gusty conditions can be problematic. Using the higher AOA approach
works, but eventually you have to do a downwind reach to get home and
that's where it gets exciting, as you are quite aware...;-)
WARDOG
http://surfingsports.com
MTVNewsGuy
for the amount of wind that's blowing. If the fin is railing up the board
excessively or tailwalking it, if the board is getting blown around, if the
sail is pulling hard but not developing lift (as opposed to drag), that's
overpowered. A sail can be tuned to carry more power, changing a fin can
settle a board in more power, a smaller board under the same sail can handle
more power.
Michael
US5613
Tom - Chicago
For me it is when I can no longer waterstart the sail. You get it flying and it
just keeps caving back in on you.
Also, extreme tailwalking - but I try to fix this with a fin change - not a sail
change.
Finally, the "comfort" factor. When we have a big NE blow here (100 + mile
Fetch, >75 feet deep) and the waves get big, I cannot handle as much sail. Flat
water makes it MUCH easier to handle more sail.
Tom - Chicago
Will Vasquez
I got thrown out the "side door" twice this weekend being overpowered
going into a jibe with big gusts hitting the sail - both on a 7M and a
5M sail....just not fun. (I can still feel my whiplashed sore neck from
that)
When you have to alter your course/decisions because it's just too windy
- that's certainly overpowered.
Mike F
accurate phrase, but it's gone. But I'm truly overpowered when I can no
longer get across the river without exploding.
The next distinct level down might be when I can get there dry, but "there"
may not be where I'd rather be because I cannot beam reach. Then there's the
regime in which I can point high, low, or in between but have too much power
to slash and bash without serious, justifiable fear for my joints. That's
where jumping peaks for me. Just below that is my sweet spot, where I am
going just as fast as I can go and still maintain sufficient control to slam
rights and lefts with all the gs my legs can support. In that range and mode
I spin out any single-finned boards I've ever ridden because I'm demanding
too much of one fin (and my skill) in exceptionally rough water. Very few
sailors, even the ones hunkered down in straight lines, go by me in this
sweet spot. (Obviously I'm not sailing with the truly fast people -- they're
most often found near the Event Site -- but I am sailing at the other
name-brand spots and surrounded by WA and OR license plates.
And here's where my answer to your question comes in. I've gotten completely
blown off, as though I was slogging on a sinker but while really powered up,
only once in this mode, and it was by a guy on a MUCH bigger sail bent on
one and only one objective: full end-over-end forwards. He was way into the
regime in which I can juuuust get across the river dry, with ZERO room left
for error. I suspect that the bigger = faster myth, while limited
significantly by drag a decade ago, is becoming more generally attainable as
the ratio of thrust to drag AND the high-end stability of modern sails keeps
improving -- the sailmakers' Holy Grail, I'd guess.
Mike \m/
"charlesivey" <charl...@home.com> wrote in message
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Mike F
and it is not visible on the thread.
charlesivey
answer may lie in what type of sailing you are doing. For example, I know
Mike's point, i.e., that modern sails allow more size and speed but that may
be when a specific destination is not required -- such as when out zooming
around and not worrying about rounding a specific mark. Then a gust that
takes you up is no problem, you just punch back and speed up. However, if
you are racing and coming up on a mark and simply cannot sail around it and
have to continue up above your most desired course because of sail size,
then you are overpowered. In the past this was sometimes a big problem with
longboard racing -- a big gust changed your objective from the best rounding
to one of just trying to keep your board from flipping over. With short
boards, this is less a problem, but still, an elongated mark rounding may
well cause a foul or loss valuable positions. Seems I just read a piece
about a top notch racer saying he lost because he rigged too large --
obviously a pro could handle it, but he was saying he did not get around the
course as fast as he could have with a slightly smaller sail.
I like the idea of being just at the limit, but still able to slash and
turn. Unfortunately, the gap in gust velocity versus prevalent wind
velocity can make it a matter of timing. If the normal wind allows control
and the gusts dictate your course, then mark roundings become a matter of
luck.
Finally, if your destination is not important, being a little overpowered is
a matter of simply getting used to it and not attempting something when the
time is not right for it. You can learn to handle more than you think, but
it's not always fun to have your turning points dictated. I know when
spinout is near, I have to ease off, get weight on the board and pull it
under me, and wait for another time to try anything else.
What prompted this question was a day when I rigged what I thought was
actually underpowered. I was out with my wife and wanted to match speed
with her at a lower pace (no flames please, she is relatively new to
planing). The wind came up just a little (not a major move) and suddenly I
was sailing very fast with more control than normal. Everything got easier.
Racing tacks and jibes were a piece of cake compared to the slightly
overpowered situation. Maybe not a fast overall, but a lot of fun!
CI
Jack (Sarasota)
I took you initial post differently from most. I think your question
was, how do you determine when one would be faster on a smaller sail.
As opposed to when "am I dead meat".
As you, and the others point out, lots of factors come in to play
here. Certainly chop and waves decrease fine control, both in
maneuvers and in sail trim. Even in fairly flat water, on a race
course there are variables. How big are the "holes", how big are the
gusts? How long are the legs of the course? If it is a short course
mark roundings increase in importance. Long legs favor all out board
speed. Certainly lighter sailors will favor going small more quickly,
because they can coast through the lulls better, and will have more
difficulty manhandling the rig in the roundings.
Even if we reduce the variables further, say by comparing one point of
sail, in one particular condition, with the same sail, and just
changing outhaul and downhaul it is sometimes hard to say, because the
draftier sail "pulls" harder, but a some point develops a poor lift to
drag ratio. This is where actual racing, and play racing with well
known buds is great, but still fraught with variables.
Guess what? If it were easy, most of us would do something else. :)
Still scratching my head too.
BTW spent much time this weekend trying to figure out how to improve
rounding the weather mark and making a tight enough turn to leeward to
keep a competitor from getting inside of you. In very light air you
are going slow enough to sink the tail and pivot. In heavy air, its
less of an issue. I usually kick the CB up just before the mark and
carve around. It's moderate air that most bothers me the most. (I
still need improvement in all conditions). Of course big sails make
all these moves more challenging.
Jack (Sarasota)
"charlesivey" <charl...@home.com> wrote in message
news:sCgT6.33899$aA5.2...@news1.rdc1.tx.home.com...
Mike F
entered, in about '81, was upwind, and about a mile towards the first mark
the wind increased to the point we could plane. Lessee ... slog upwind for
miles for a $5 trophy or turn right and actually PLANE ... slog or plane ...
pinch or beam/broad reach "faster'n I've ever been before" ... easy choice.
I agree ... that does make a difference in one's perception of
"overpowered".
"Excess drag" isn't the only way a pro can lose a race. There's one more
reason that even a pro can lose because he's rigged too big, and the reason
looks quite painful. I was out sailing really powered up on my 3.7 once when
Bruce and his peers were in a race in Hood River ... on 6.x sails. Their
pinch to the mark up near the windier-yet Hatchery was a piece'o'cake for
them, just muscle, skill, and great sails. Their off-the-cliff return trip
was all balls and rear thigh muscles and warp speeds, and every once in a
while one of them would absolutely, positively EXPLODE, followed by the
driver -- hell, PASSENGER, at those speeds -- emerging, shaking his head to
clear the cobwebs, looking around for his gear, swimming to it,
water-launching with both feet in the straps and buttholes puckered to the
max, and going up through the gears again. Noses and ribs broke that day, we
were told.
Mike \m/
"charlesivey" <charl...@home.com> wrote in message
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AD.
Overpowered is when you'd prefer less power, and underpowered is when
you'd prefer more power.
Maybe I'm just a simpleton ;-)
Cheers
Anton
Jack (Sarasota)
"Mike F" <iso...@urxSpamDam.com> wrote in message
news:FGwT6.47275$w4.11...@e420r-sjo3.usenetserver.com...
> I don't remember ever sailing "around a mark", not even once. The
one race I
> entered, in about '81, was upwind, and about a mile towards the
first mark
> the wind increased to the point we could plane. Lessee ... slog
upwind for
> miles for a $5 trophy or turn right and actually PLANE ... slog or
plane ...
> pinch or beam/broad reach "faster'n I've ever been before" ... easy
choice.
> I agree ... that does make a difference in one's perception of
> "overpowered".
Would it be fair to say that Mike is not an avid racer?
Jack (Sarasota)
Mike F
I thought. I even quit a dirt bike desert race once because it was no fun,
and skipped one desert race because it was windy and the lake was too close
to pass up.
Mike \m/
"Jack (Sarasota)" <jack.t...@access.gov> wrote in message
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Mike F
subjective. Some people PREFER to avoid planing because it scares them,
others PREFER to plane even in the lulls. This partly explains why we'll
sometimes see sailors of the same weight using sails from 4.0 to 6.0 at the
same time, all having fun and all claiming they're powered "right".
Mike \m/
"AD." <an...@astarte.co.nz> wrote in message
news:SOwT6.8$TX6...@news02.tsnz.net...
AD.
> The flaw in that concept is that the term we're trying to define
becomes too
> subjective.
Ah ha, but it is almost entirely subjective and your comments below bear
(or is that 'bare'?) that out. There are too many variables to come up
with hard rules especially when one of those variables is sailor
PREFERerence.
> Some people PREFER to avoid planing because it scares them,
> others PREFER to plane even in the lulls. This partly explains why
we'll
> sometimes see sailors of the same weight using sails from 4.0 to 6.0
at the
> same time, all having fun and all claiming they're powered "right".
And what right do we have to tell them otherwise.
Of course there are some sailors that are in self denial, and there may
be a small minority of sailors that can't see (or feel) what is
completely obvious to everybody else looking at them. But than again
some might even subscribe to the theory (I'm not convinced myself) that
perception is reality.
Bah, I'm supposed to be an engineer not a philosopher! See what you made
me do! :-)
Anton
Rainer Leuschke
But it *IS* completely subjective.
Everybody has their limits of what they can handle and are comfortable
with. If you'd use some macho pro as the basis of your definition for what
is overpowering, we're all sailing underpowered. Why is there a need to
find a one-fits-all definition?
R!
qdee
bit differant then a boat. Is "Plane" mean the same as tacking, or going
from leward to winward? Bet I'm off on that too. I just started sailing and
am looking for smothing small to fit in garage Then a boat at the dock.
"Mike F" <iso...@urxSpamDam.com> wrote in message
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charlesivey
What I was after here was what different people were experiencing for
overpowered, knowing full well that we all have different thresholds for
such a subjective thing.
Since I like overpowered far better than underpowered (but only too a point
if it gets hairy), I run into lots of times when I just have to give up and
rig down. My definition has gotten clearer now howerer: I am overpowered
when the sail dictates where I have to sail rather than me, not just when I
can no longer hold on to things. Now when I think "overpowered" it will
mean I cannot go exactly where I want but could still stay out sailing.
This is a weak definition, of course, because the term should mean when the
power is just too much to handle at all. That middle ground is what most of
us likely think of when we say "overpowered," not the "overwhelmed"
condition where we cannot stay upright at all. Overpowered can still sail
in, Overwhelmed hangs onto the board and hopes to float to safety.
CI
Mike F
the lake without exploding", "reaching a desired mark", "unable to bear off
(or beam reach) without crashing", "unable to sheet in without crashing",
"unable to sheet in ... period (due to getting backwinded)", or any of many
such measurable, objective, repeatable tests.
The sail size and/or wind speed will vary dramatically from one person, type
of gear, venue, etc to another, but at least the DEFINITION and some
objective measure of it could be determined. That's the basis and purpose
for having language and a dictionary that DOES provide definitions ... that
we can use a word as a substitute for its definition and be understood by
all. If by "overpowered" one guy means "more power than I prefer", another
means "more than I can control", another means "too much to remain
sub-planing in", and yet another means "so much wind I will get injured if I
don't jump in the water and hide under my sail", the term is meaningless by
itself. But if "overpowered" is defined to mean "enough power that a person
cannot sail from buoy A to buoy B while keeping an Alka Seltzer taped to his
butt dry", that's objective.
Thus we say "beam reach" rather than "sailing along a line perpendicular to
the direction in which the molecules of air not affected by the sail are
moving". ( I had to avoid saying "direction of the wind" because I once had
a student who had no idea -- and was apparently incapable of
comprehending -- what "wind" is. The entire school instruction staff gave up
trying to make her understand what wind is, or even determine what direction
it was blowing in or from, admitted their first total defeat in several
years, refunded her money, and sent her packing. Without being able to
define wind in objective terms to her, they were unable to communicate with
her. The concept of "apparent wind" was not even broached.)
In Charles' case, the definition of "overpowered" he sought in opening this
thread was measurable and objective ... but still VERY hard to determine:
For a given wind speed, point of sail, board, fin, rider weight, sea state,
stance, skill level, mast, boom, sail brand and model, breakfast, and
sunspot activity level ... what sail size provides the greatest board
speed? That may or may not equate to "what sail size provides the greatest
ratio of lift to drag?" in the given conditions. And even if that could be
answered, one of those parameters may change two minutes later, changing the
answer noticeably (changing from close reach to broad reach, for example,
for a completely different answer.)
Mike \m/
"Rainer Leuschke" <rai...@u.washington.edu> wrote in message
news:Pine.A41.4.33.010607...@dante07.u.washington.edu...
westoz
not what it means for you. Because windsurfing has so many variables ( which
you covered well) its never going to be as scientific as some would like,
even though they convince themselves that it can be.
I see alot of guys getting way to technical for me and waisting good
sailing time sanding that fin or trying to get the last ripple out of the
sail, only to come in and change sail size up and down a few times. Thats
cool if they want to do that, but I prefer to be sailing.
A pet hate of mine is looking through the sail board web sites ( I wont
mention names) where they state as if it were FACT, that board A is good for
sail size x-z and for wave size b-c and onshore or side shore conditions.
But they dont say for who, or for what size/ wieght person, because they
can't - there are to many variables.
Tom.
Mike F
260-liter longboard in 40 knots -- often -- because shortboards didn't yet
exist (that we knew of), or winning a speed challenge on a 6.0 on a 75-liter
8-0 out of curiosity (not me, but a friend on a Naish custom).
Same goes for people who could afford more masts but are too cheap to buy an
extra one, necessitating wasting hours of shred time on re-rigging all the
dang day as winds bounce all over the place. I watched one good sailor sit
on shore virtually all afternoon, rigging several sails back and forth as
the winds rambled all over the scale from 15 to 40, just trying to catch a
short session. The rest of us may have rigged three or four sails, but only
once each, and we never had to derig any until we went home; we were sailin'
almost the whole time he was riggin'. If one can afford it, an extra mast or
three is a major player in increased shred time unless one lives near a big
fan.
Mike \m/
"westoz" <wes...@westnet.com.au> wrote
westoz
The bottom line is what ever works for you, I'm a lazy sailer I know what
works for me and I rig accordingly, I sail underpowered for a hour rather
than derig and change sails, I don't baby my fins I use them as depth gauges
and sometimes a reluctant anchor. But I also have wind on tap so no need for
fine tuning, big boards or big sails and I am very aware that I would need
to adjust my attitude if I ever moved to a low wind location.
Tom.
Scott G
dinghys, skiffs and flat bottomed racing keelboats can plane.
Every displacement hull is limited to its theoretical hull speed when in
displacement mode. If you exceed the hull speed by riding up over the bow
wave, then you are planing.
It is evidenced by a surfing, frothing sound as opposed to a gurgling
shlogging sound.
For us windsurfers, being on a plane means being in the footstraps with our
bodies hiked out over the water, with the sail angled in to the wind
supporting our body weight, flying along at 1 to 2 times the wind speed.
Once you have been planing, its hard to go back to displacement mode.
If you get a windsurfer to fit in the garage and you learn to sail it on a
plane, you will be bored by the typical boat at he dock.
So please, buy a windsurfer, learn to plane and join us.
Scott
qdee <qd...@datasync.com> wrote in message
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Mike F
people, not the boards) a second or so after a "good" catapult, and anyone
caught stealing windsurfing gear and towed behind Miss Budweiser until
there's nothing left but rope.
Mike \m/
"Scott G" <spamBite...@SPAM.suX.mediaone.net> wrote in message
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