cams vs. no-cam sails - any tips?
Dave Hafelein
advice that the camless design is the way to go. But I remember what a
big improvement cams were over the original RAF design. It would seem
to me that the cam sails have an advantage with the smooth transition around
the mast.
Any tips?
Phil Morgan
larger sails really do benefit from the cams as the draft is already set and you
get a much wider wind range out of them. They perform quite well through the
lulls, etc that are evident in lower wind range days. Camless sails seem to be
better for the smaller sails where stronger winds are already evident and the
need for an induced draft in the sail is not needed as much. Personally, I find
this approach pretty accurate. All of my sails are cambered from 4.5 up to 8.5
(4.5 was a deal I couldn't resist) with the exception of a camless Naish Noa
6.0. I find the 4.5 and sometimes the 5.2 are uncontrollable at top end of wind
ranges and the 8.5 and 7.0 are incredibly stable with a huge tolerance for gusts
and higher wind ranges. The camless 6.0 is a wonderful sail with a very
"forgiving" feeling, but only in steady top wind ranges. If I encounter lulls
using the sail, it seems to immediately stall.
Phil
Charles Revis
will never buy another cambered sail. Look at the Sailworks Retros and the
new Diablos by Neil Pryde.
Revis
dubois
For me, cam-less sails are the way to go from now on. I bought a 9.0m
Supersonic sail which I never imagined would perform that well.
Honestly, cam-less sails are so much more userfriendly and they are very
competitive as well for recreational sailors and even for local races.
A friend of mine has the brand new 8.8m Neil Pryde RX1. This sail is
supposed to be the fastest sail in the world etc... well it isn't
noticeably faster than my Supersonic when sailing in "recreational"
mode.
Yes the RX1 has a better stability in gusts, and will have better
control in high wind, however, when sailing for fun this is not so
important.
Cam-less sails, are easier to rig, much lighter, jibe better and are
about as fast as cambered sails.
Francois
2 Rad Inc.
out. It's heard that within three years, most, if not all, manufacturers
will have only one cammed sail; the race sail. If you look at what these
sails are designed for, COURSE RACING, they're made to be sailed overpowered
and primarily extremely high upwind, and extremely low downwind. Which is
not what common mortals do with them. Lets be honest most of the people on
the water sail across the wind and do the highway thing. Some of us actually
go upwind fairly high and work at going downwind as low as we can. But if
you've ever compared yourself to a pro racer, these guys ride way further
upwind and downwind than us. A race sail is designed to be as efficient as
possible in overpowering conditions upwind and down. And on the other hand,
why get a race sail to put on a freeride board or vise-versa? In this
scenario, the set-up is unbalanced in terms of performance. In the end, if
you get a course racing wide bodied board, get a race sail, and if you buy a
freeride board, get a sail that will complement it.
Bruno
2 Rad
Brian
dubois wrote in message <379E65...@netvigator.com>...
>Hi Dave,
>
>For me, cam-less sails are the way to go from now on. I bought a 9.0m
>Supersonic sail which I never imagined would perform that well.
>Honestly, cam-less sails are so much more userfriendly and they are very
>competitive as well for recreational sailors and even for local races.
>A friend of mine has the brand new 8.8m Neil Pryde RX1. This sail is
>supposed to be the fastest sail in the world etc... well it isn't
>noticeably faster than my Supersonic when sailing in "recreational"
>mode.
Well that is hardly surprising, since they are both sailing in light wind.
Anyway, the RX1 is a different species to the Supersonic. A better
comparison would be cambered sails designed for light wind conditions.
>Yes the RX1 has a better stability in gusts, and will have better
>control in high wind, however, when sailing for fun this is not so
>important.
I think many people would disagree with you about stability and control
being not so important. At the very least, stability and control (and wind
range) means less rigging and de-rigging, which for those of us who have to
dash from work to grab a couple of hours sailing, often in off-shore winds,
is very important.
>Cam-less sails, are easier to rig, much lighter, jibe better and are
>about as fast as cambered sails.
But have less low-end power, less ability to sail through lulls, less
stability and less wind range. You cannot change the laws of physics.
Brian.
Vaughan James Sanders
>I think many people would disagree with you about stability and control
>being not so important. At the very least, stability and control (and wind
>range) means less rigging and de-rigging, which for those of us who have to
>dash from work to grab a couple of hours sailing, often in off-shore winds,
>is very important.
>
>>Cam-less sails, are easier to rig, much lighter, jibe better and are
>>about as fast as cambered sails.
>
>But have less low-end power, less ability to sail through lulls, less
>stability and less wind range. You cannot change the laws of physics.
>
>Brian.
>
>
Jamie
Jamie Sanders
Chalkwell Windsurfing Club
http://freespace.virgin.net/ken.rosier/cwc.htm
--
--
Vaughan James Sanders
dubois
out there who are still cambers addicts. There is a few guys like
that left out here...
However, if Brian thinks that he is gaining time in the after work sail
sessions by using cambered sails, well I believe that he should
seriously take a close look at his rigging time. Even if you know your
sail very well a cam-less sail will get you on the water in half the
time.
Francois
darko simic
I have cambered and wave sails. I need the same time for both to rig.
Garth Chaisson
I've had single cam bump type sails for years and my biggest sail is a 2 cam
slalom type Ezzy 6 m and it never has been a problem rigging any of them and
I've never had a cam pop off the mast once. It doesn't take me any longer to
rig these sails than anyone else I've watched rig cam less sails. As far as
stability I think it is real important due to the fact that one of the places
I sail a lot is hard to get out into the main lake and the last thing I want
to do is have to come back in because the wind has picked up or it's gusty.
Last Saturday I was out on my 6m and was powered up real well and was close to
over powered after a while but felt just right but when I came in other people
had rigged down with their cam less sails and were complaining that it was
gusty and I thought it was a great day with no complaints so even if it was
harder to rig my cams(which it wasn't) I only had to rig once.
DavRay11
cambered race sail. Granted, it does take a little know-how to tune
them, but once you get it you will eliminate all the hassle of a sail change
when a stronger breeze kicks in. With an adjustable outhaul
my 8.7 VX-3 just plain amazes me with its range and speed. I think they
are easy to rig. Dave
Berkeley Windsurf & Snowboard
couple and when not racing or race-training I prefer them. Mostly
because they are easier to rig, and in non race situations on a big
board I like to do freestyle, which is much more fun without cams. As I
have posted endlessly the Gaastra Freeride 8.5 is my favorite non-race
big sail. So light and easy to sail, it loves sailing backwinded, clew
first, etc. I can duck-jibe the thing it is so light. Sail-body 360s
are easy, even did a carving 360. Matches my Techno perfectly and is
still real stable when amped up. Adjustable outhaul helps a bunch in
the puffs but is not mandatory.
Wouldn't be caught dead with in on the race course, though......
--
Will Harper
mail to: bwa...@slip.net
http://www.slip.net/~bwands
**********************************************************************
Berkeley Windsurf and Snowboard
1601 University Ave.
Berkeley, CA 94703
(510) 843-9283
**********************************************************************
musta...@my-deja.com
"2 Rad Inc." <br...@2-rad.com> wrote:
> It's already said through the grape vine that cammed sails are on the
>way
> out. It's heard that within three years, most, if not all,
>manufacturers
> will have only one cammed sail; the race sail. If you look at what
>these
> sails are designed for, COURSE RACING, they're made to be sailed
>overpowered
> and primarily extremely high upwind, and extremely low downwind.
You forgot high wind slalom racing on smaller boards.
>Which
>is
> not what common mortals do with them. Lets be honest most of the
>people on
> the water sail across the wind and do the highway thing. Some of us
>actually
> go upwind fairly high and work at going downwind as low as we can.
So we actually do many of the things racers like to do, and like even
more to do it as well as we can. Such things as getting far upwind, if
just to get away from the crowd, to going downwind under control, and
(surprise) even doing the highway thing (and this is important) FAST.
> But
>if you've ever compared yourself to a pro racer, these guys ride way
>further
> upwind and downwind than us.
The only reason they do it and "we" don't is because they can.
>A race sail is designed to be as
>efficient as
> possible in overpowering conditions upwind and down.
And what makes this undesirable to a recreational sailor? This was the
kicker for me. Being a heavier sailor, I always err on the side of being
over-powered. But when just a bit over-over-powered my enjoyment used to
drop off quite rapidly. Recently got a super close-out deal on a 4-cam
race sail. Though the sailsman was pushing the recreational "version" of
this sail (1 cam/batten less). I figured I'd see what this extreme end
of the spectrum offered. I love this damn thing! Was out on a gusty day
which was chasing people in with 2m smaller sails. The gusts hit
alright, but instead of ripping my back arm out or launching me, there
was this foreign, dull, smooth increase in force coming from exactly the
same place on the sail. I'll never forget that day.
>And on the other
>hand,
> why get a race sail to put on a freeride board or vise-versa? In this
> scenario, the set-up is unbalanced in terms of performance. In the
>end, if
> you get a course racing wide bodied board, get a race sail, and if
>you
>buy a
> freeride board, get a sail that will complement it.
I use my new '98 North IQ 6.8 with a 15" fin on a screamer 268 in about
18 to 26 mph or on a Xantos 310 in 14 to 20. Not quite your
prescription, and I'm not likely to enter any races with those setups.
But I think they work great.
> Bruno
> 2 Rad
>
>
IMHO the bigger a sail, the more they stand to benefit from hardware
(battens & cams). I do have a camless 4.5 and 5.5. I once tried taking a
2 cam 5.0 out in 40 mph gusts. It wasn't pretty.
I agree with what Will says completely. If tricks are your thing forget
cams totally. That makes total sense. It really depends upon what you
want to do. For bread and butter shredding though, I think cams will
always have a lot to offer.
Doug
Sent via Deja.com http://www.deja.com/
Share what you know. Learn what you don't.
Charles Livaudais
musta...@my-deja.com wrote:
IMHO the bigger a sail, the more they stand to benefit from hardware
> (battens & cams). I do have a camless 4.5 and 5.5. I once tried taking a
> 2 cam 5.0 out in 40 mph gusts. It wasn't pretty.
>
> I agree with what Will says completely. If tricks are your thing forget
> cams totally. That makes total sense. It really depends upon what you
> want to do. For bread and butter shredding though, I think cams will
> always have a lot to offer.
Doug,
I believe you mentioned you were a big guy, so the weight of the rig
may not be as big a concern to you. For me at 160 lbs., it is. I have
a '98 7.4 IQ, and you're right that the stability of those sails is
amazing. I can still sail it while others are sailing 5.0s... but
do I want to? In that much wind I'd rather be sailing a 5.0 as well!
After my wife and I bought a 7.0 Naish Koa, the IQ rarely gets
sailed. The Koa is every bit as fast on a reach as the IQ. It's slightly
worse at getting upwind, but it gets upwind just fine. It's more
powerful and every bit as stable as our 6.5, twin-cam North Pyro.
It is a very easy jump from the 7.0 Koa to our 5.8 Ezzy Bump n Jump;
to me that's more than enough range. And most importantly,
the Koa is so much lighter and jibes so much more easily than
the IQ - even easier than the smaller Pyro. I can duck jibe
the Koa (sometimes - still working on 'em!),
but I never even tried to duck the IQ.
The thought of sailing with a heavily-cammed - and
heavy - 8.0+ sail sounds like a nightmare to me.
It's all about tradeoffs, of course. At our gusty local lake, the
IQ is as enjoyable as the Koa; at the coast the
Koa is far more fun to sail. But overall I'd rather trade a slight bit
of upwind ability and stability (compared to a race sail, at least - not
necessarily to a typical twin cam) for a more significant increase
in jibing and general ease of use. If I were a larger sailor or
had a different sailing style, perhaps my view would be
different. But don't burden yourself with a heavy rig until
you've tried one of the new camless sails :-)
Charles Livaudais
dubois
cambered sail for RECREATIONAL sailing if they have actually tried one
of the new (98-99) slalom cam-less sail. I hope that when they refer to
cam-less sails they are not talking about wave sails or their memories
of old RAF sails.
For RECREATIONAL windsurfing I simply can't understand how someone can
prefer a cambered sail, they have nothing much more to offer apart from
being heavier, harder to jibe, harder to waterstart and uphaul, trickier
to rig and they have a less throw about feeling.
If I was continualy being overtaken by guys using cambered race sails I
would probably think that those sails have a clear advantage but this
doesn't happen.
For upwind racing I would definitely choose a cambered sail but for
RECREATIONAL sailing, never again.
Francois
Francois
darko simic
where I sail, wind is usually very gusty, falling down the mountain with the wind
gods playing constantly with the on/off button. I also have to go downwinds and come
back later to get the best winds. I have been better off with a big cambered sail.
It's true, everything is heavier, but man, I am just working on my muscles for the
better days (wavesails,-boards).
My sail is 2 years old, maybe the next one will not have any cambers, we'll see.
D.
jfe...@ix.netcom.com
>
> What I would like to know is if the people who claim that they prefer
> cambered sail for RECREATIONAL sailing if they have actually tried one
> of the new (98-99) slalom cam-less sail.
after some thought i just bought a 9.0v8 instead of a camless sail for my
new f2 crl. i don't race. i tried a 6.7 supersonic earlier in the season, and
wasn't so impressed. i found it to have very little power, and i didn't think
it responded well to pumping. perhaps it wasn't rigged right, but i liked
the 6.5 v8 much better.
> For RECREATIONAL windsurfing I simply can't understand how someone can
> prefer a cambered sail, they have nothing much more to offer apart from
> being heavier, harder to jibe, harder to waterstart and uphaul, trickier
> to rig and they have a less throw about feeling.
just because i'm a recreational sailor doesn't mean that i don't like to go
upwind and downwind. i often sail quite far upwind and then sail back as
deeply as possible. in my brief experience with the supersonic,
i found that it really didn't perform as well at deep angles as the v8.
i would guess that an adjustable outhaul would help the camless sails
a lot in this dept., but i haven't had the chance to demo one rigged this way.
one of the best reasons for getting a new "wide-style" board is because they
can go so high and so deep. buying a sail that detracts from this ability
is to give up a lot of the fun of these boards.
perhaps i am wrong, and the camless sails can sail very high and very deep,
i would like to hear from sailors who use them for this type of sailing.
i almost never have a problem rigging my cambered sails.
> If I was continualy being overtaken by guys using cambered race sails I
> would probably think that those sails have a clear advantage but this
> doesn't happen.
are you mostly reaching back and forth, or are you sailing high and low?
jeff feehan
Bill Bradstreet
be rigged in under 15 minutes with my North Spectro 7.0. The camless sails
are definitely faster to rig, but the trade-off with sailing range isn't
worth the 7.5 minutes. I can use that 7.0 from 7-15 mph winds on my AHD 67
by adjusting its downhaul and give it more downhaul and use it on my BIC
Tempo 8'10" up to 20 mph. That's a range I like. I've sailed on a number of
days where I need to be able to handle this wide of a range. The amount of
time I would have taken to rig a second or third sail would have been
wasted.
I usually use my 7.0 until my Bravo 5.5 (also cambered) will work and it
will take me to 30 mph if I flatten it out (tons o' downhaul).
Good luck in deciding! No matter which way you go, you'll still enjoy
yourself I trust!
Bill
dubois <dub...@netvigator.com> wrote in message
news:37A02A...@netvigator.com...
> Well what can I do, I suppose there are still a few recreational sailors
> out there who are still cambers addicts. There is a few guys like
> that left out here...
>
> However, if Brian thinks that he is gaining time in the after work sail
> sessions by using cambered sails, well I believe that he should
> seriously take a close look at his rigging time. Even if you know your
> sail very well a cam-less sail will get you on the water in half the
> time.
>
> Francois
>
>
>
Dave Crabbe
no-cam sails, but I've sailed with people
who have. I have a Pryde V6 6.0, 7.5 cam sails and
have had some Race sails up to 8.0. Here's
what we've found.
Don't get a wide luff sleeve several cam sail
unless you *really* need one. You need
to learn how to rig and tune these sails. Some
cams are prone to popping off; but my big
complaint is that they are such pigs to water
start. The wide luff sleeve fills with water and
sticks to the water like glue.
However, I've had V6's and rigged V8s and
any of the narrow luff sleeve sail with 1, or 2
cams take no more time to rig than camless.
You'll likely need to replace a batten and
cam or two through a 4 year life of the sail.
However, I've had the lower batten pocket on
my camless Pryde 5.3 wear out, so even
camless sails may need maintenance.
The cam sail seems to slightly outperform
a non-cam on marginal days and I think
I get slightly more wind range. My biggest
problem when learning to rig cammed
sails was not enough downhaul and so
the battens had too much pressure against
the mast. This shortens batten life. The
Pryde V6 series, is super for being user
friendly to rig and has great performance.
It is not as durable as I would like, but I
guess there are tradeoffs in all designs.
I don't think I'd get a cammed sail with
sizes 5.5 or less.
Dave Crabbe