GUN sails Outrage in England
Jeremy Colville
I am a windsurfer in the South Coast of England.
I have decided to buy new sails . After buying a second hand Gun sail
and being very pleased i thought i would investigate them further.
It seems that GUN sails however are never reviewed in the biggest UK
windsurfing magazines namely Windsurfer and Boards.
I rang GUN in the UK and was told by GUN that Windsurfer are refusing to
even advertise the sails let alone review them.
I t would seem that because GUN are priced so low for very high quality
sails that they are stealing some of the market from the other over
priced sail makers.
GUN hold the world speed record for open sea on the MEGA X. Surely this
is proof that they deserve to be reviewed along with all the other sail
makers.
Windsurfing is expensive enough without the magazines fueling it.
I have nothing do with GUN commercially , i am just coomending them on
their price , quality and service .
James Calore
In article <3267C1...@etlxdmx.ericsson.se>,
etl...@etlxdmx.ericsson.se wrote:
> I rang GUN in the UK and was told by GUN that Windsurfer are refusing to
> even advertise the sails let alone review them.
> I t would seem that because GUN are priced so low for very high quality
> sails that they are stealing some of the market from the other over
> priced sail makers.
There is something wrong with this picture...
A magazine doesn't refuse advertising unless it's an illegal product or
otherwise is not profitable. IMO you're getting a load from Gun.
Incidendally, Gun didn't make out too well here in the USA...
-jc
__________________________________________________
STAR*TECH JOURNAL http://www.StarTechJournal.com
Providing Technical & Informational Data to the
Coin-Operated Games Professional & Collector.
Jeremy Colville
James
GUN categorically told me that they had been point blank refused the
advert despite offering them the full monies requested for advertising.
They have also sent solicitors letter to the magazine , obviously the
magazine is not how ever obliged to accept adverts.
Clearly the sails are not illegal , i dont see how any sail could be
illeagl.
Whether the sails are popular in America or not does not matter they
are well made sails , as i said before the Mega X holds the world speed
record on open sea (top 3 times for both men and women.)
My gut feeling is that they are so well priced they are stealing other
over priced companies profit margins.
Incidentally i recently spoke to a sail maker for the UK's largest maker
who believed that the profit margins were obscene on some companies
sails
http://www.sz-sb.de/TGS/englisch/egun0y.htm
Just for the record Josh Angulo , Roddy lewis and Rush Randle are all
based in Maui , this is America !
I'm sounding more and more like a GUN salesman i am not , i just want
these sails reviewed now and again in the UK.
NLW TFW NM
Similarly, I wonder why GUN isn't advertising or testing in US mags?
Although PWR, for example, has refused to advertise some operations such
as Windsufing Express, I'm not aware of any squabbles betwen PWR and GUN.
And other very high-quality, high-performance, low-priced sails, such as
World Sails, advertise and test is US mags. Maybe GUN has just voluntarily
dropped out of the US market for other reasons. Maybe some dork in the US
sailed into a cliff while on a GUN sail, sued GUN ... and won. Stranger
things have happened.
Mike \m/
Never Leave Wind To Find Wind
James Calore
In article <3267F5...@etlxdmx.ericsson.se>,
etl...@etlxdmx.ericsson.se wrote:
> My gut feeling is that they are so well priced they are stealing other
> over priced companies profit margins.
>
> I'm sounding more and more like a GUN salesman i am not , i just want
> these sails reviewed now and again in the UK.
I've dealt with Gun before on a professional basis, they are very
demanding (discounts, etc). They insisted I find them a few distributors
before they buy ad space from me. Of course, I refused.
I find it curious that if Gun is so reputable and such a high quality made
sail, why are they having so many problems?
Jonathen Shell
I'll tell you what's wrong with this picture. Just take a look at that
home page that "Jeremy Colville" aka etl...@etlxdmx.ericsson.se so
readily mentions. Not a price to be seen. If these sails are such a
good deal, why aren't the prices mentioned on the web page ? Perhaps
it's a media conspiracy with the help of the other sail
manufacturers. Give me a break.
If they're so cheap, the prices should be displayed in the biggest
point size they can get, but strangely, no mention of price. No
mention that is, until you send your credit card number. Then you'll
get a quote by return fax. Doesn't help much when they already have
your credit card number. I'll bet you've already ordered a sail before
you even know the price. I wouldn't stake too much on being able to
return the things either !!
Of course, I could be completely off base here, and if I'm wrong, go
ahead and set me straight. I'm always keen on a brand-new 7.3
dual-batten sail at prices so low that you can't print them in
Windsurf, a highly esteemed publication widely appreciated for good
advice and a vendor-neutral stance.
So, "Jeremy Colville", why don't you tell us what the price for the
GUN Energy Slalom 7.3 is ?? And if you know, perhaps you'd explain the
mystery of the missing price list while you're at it. And I'd like to
know why there is no e-mail address for enquiries, yet they have a
detailed web page.
All very mystifying. I think I'll stick with sails from places I can
visit in person.
Jon.
<disclaim.h>
//all my own views, and I'm quite attached to them thank you
{return $visa_card};
etljyce> In article <3267C1...@etlxdmx.ericsson.se>,
etljyce> etl...@etlxdmx.ericsson.se wrote:
etljyce> I rang GUN in the UK and was told by GUN that Windsurfer
etljyce> are refusing to even advertise the sails let alone review
etljyce> them. I t would seem that because GUN are priced so low
etljyce> for very high quality sails that they are stealing some
etljyce> of the market from the other over priced sail makers.
James> There is something wrong with this picture... A magazine
James> doesn't refuse advertising unless it's an illegal product
James> or otherwise is not profitable. IMO you're getting a load
James> from Gun. Incidendally, Gun didn't make out too well here
James> in the USA... -jc
--
----------------------------------------------------------------
Jonathen Shell
Morgan Stanley & Co
750 7th Avenue, NY, NY.
Tel: (212) 762-2445
----------------------------------------------------------------
Cellfred
for the no prices in home page issue i can just tell you that the offical
GUN sails home page (sorry i don't have address right now) offers price
and even has sales on it
Allen Dick
In article <j9pn2xk...@siete.morgan.com>,
jsh...@morgan.com (Jonathen Shell ) wrote:
>
>I'll tell you what's wrong with this picture. Just take a look at that
>home page that "Jeremy Colville" aka etl...@etlxdmx.ericsson.se so
>readily mentions. Not a price to be seen. If these sails are such a
>good deal, why aren't the prices mentioned on the web page ? Perhaps
>it's a media conspiracy with the help of the other sail
>manufacturers. Give me a break.
I wondered the same thing and found it annoying, but then realised that the
prices are different in different countries. Transportation and distribution
cost vary.
Gun --like others -- is obviously still tied to the old system of distribution.
The idea of international distribution via net marketing is just starting to
shake things up. I imagine that they will have to work things out with their
distributors and decide whether to keep them, or to distribute direct to
consumer from their homebase -- if they decide to get into direct sales.
In the meantime, I imagine that your local distributor will have to provide a
quote.
>If they're so cheap, the prices should be displayed in the biggest
>point size they can get, but strangely, no mention of price. No
>mention that is, until you send your credit card number. Then you'll
>get a quote by return fax. Doesn't help much when they already have
>your credit card number. I'll bet you've already ordered a sail before
>you even know the price. I wouldn't stake too much on being able to
>return the things either !!
Well, the page is obviously new, and I think that they haven't had a chance to
debug it yet, so let's give them the benefit of the doubt.
Send a request for quote *without* your card info, and see what happens. I'm
sure they won't care.
(As a merchant -- in an unrelated business --with C/C facilities, I can assure
you that *any* complaints from any customers will bring a card company down on
the merchant like a ton of bricks and their card privileges would be quickly
gone if they abused your trust.
Moreover, look what happened to Intel re the Pentium bug debacle. If Gun are
trying to build a net presence and are here for the long term, you can be sure
they will be squeaky clean and use ethics beyond reproach. Any questionable
behaviour would backfire badly. Can you imagine the scandal that would result
from any abuse of their customer's trust?
>Of course, I could be completely off base here, and if I'm wrong, go
>ahead and set me straight. I'm always keen on a brand-new 7.3
>dual-batten sail at prices so low that you can't print them in
>Windsurf, a highly esteemed publication widely appreciated for good
>advice and a vendor-neutral stance.
I could use one myself. Why don't you get a quote and post it here then. I'm
sure that the price(s) are no secret. Gun just haven't figured out how to list
prices that vary according to region and currency yet.
My guess anyhow.
Regards
Allen
W. Allen Dick, Beekeeper VE6CFK
Rural Route One, Swalwell, Alberta Canada T0M 1Y0
Honey, Bees, & Art <http://www.cuug.ab.ca:8001/~dicka/>
Volker Wedemeier
On 18 Oct 1996, Jonathen Shell wrote:
> I'll tell you what's wrong with this picture. Just take a look at that
> home page that "Jeremy Colville" aka etl...@etlxdmx.ericsson.se so
> readily mentions. Not a price to be seen. If these sails are such a
> good deal, why aren't the prices mentioned on the web page ? Perhaps
> it's a media conspiracy with the help of the other sail
> manufacturers. Give me a break.
>
> If they're so cheap, the prices should be displayed in the biggest
> point size they can get, but strangely, no mention of price. No
> mention that is, until you send your credit card number.
>
> Of course, I could be completely off base here, and if I'm wrong, go
> ahead and set me straight. I'm always keen on a brand-new 7.3
...
> So, "Jeremy Colville", why don't you tell us what the price for the
> GUN Energy Slalom 7.3 is ?? And if you know, perhaps you'd explain the
> mystery of the missing price list while you're at it. And I'd like to
> know why there is no e-mail address for enquiries, yet they have a
> detailed web page.
I don't know, to which page exactly you are referring, but the price for
the GUN Energy Slalom 7.3 is 509 DM.
If you want info on The Gun sails, go to their original web-page at:
http://www.sz-sb.de/TGS/TheGunSails.htm
Ok, there is one point to take into account. The prices and sale-offers
are only listed on the german version of the page. Obviously, they didn't
or couldn't inlcude the prices in all currencies for all countries on the
english (international) version of their page. But if you want to have a
clue on the actual price, try to choose the german page (by clicking on
the left flag - the black - red - gold one). Then select "Segel" on the
top of the page and then choose "Technische Daten" for the sail you are
interested in. Then you'll get a list with the technical data of the
different sail sizes and the prices in DM in the right column.
You say, it's not customer friendly to only list the prices in DM???
Well, I agree. But The Gun is a german company and have you ever seen an
american company on the web that lists their prices in anything else than
in US-$? Or a british one that lists anything else than pounds?
Hang loose,
Volker
J.Denissen
Reply Of J.Denissen to GUN sails discusion
>So, why don't you tell us what the price for the
>GUN Energy Slalom 7.3 is ?? And if you know, perhaps you'd
>explain the
>mystery of the missing price list while you're at it. And I'd
>like to
>know why there is no e-mail address for enquiries, yet they have
>a detailed web page.
Im a fairly experienced surfer. I surf for almost 13 years now in
allconditions (speed, slalom, wave) beneath 9 beaufour.
I live in Holland near the german border. I read all kinds of surf
magazines American, Englisch, Dutch(more advertizing then
surfing), German.
The German SURF magazine is one of the best (if not the best)
magazine, I believe. This magazine tests allmost all sails
available in germany, also the GUN sails.
The GUN sails do very well in the tests. Many of them compete with
large sail brands like North, Neil Pryde, ART, Gaastra enz. They
mostly perform just as these
brands in perfomance and quality. They perform often just beneath
a testwinner.
There are of cource also some types that perform less.
For a few years The GUN sails were used by starting surfers that
didn't want to spend lots of money. Experenced surfers only wanted
to sail proven famous brands like NP, North, Gaastra. They (and I)
sometimes looked down on the GUN users.
Above 5-6 beaufour there were no the GUNS on the water.
Now a days, many the GUNS sails race and loop over the water. Even
the best Crackes buy the GUN. In Holland and Germany the GUN has
now the same image as North, NP, ART, Gaastra enz..
I personally only sail North, Neil Pride and Gaastra. But my next
wave sail can also be a the GUN sail.
Many of my surf friends sail the Gun sails (students do not have
much to spent) They are very pleased with them.
I do not know if the service is good, when a sails breaks or so
(because this never happened with my friends).
For the record:
A the GUN sail "Energy slalom 7.3" costs about 500 DM, 285 dollars
and 178 pounds, that is if you order them from German surf
magazine. I really don't know if they are much more expensive in
GB or USA due to shipping costs.
> etljyce> In article <3267C1...@etlxdmx.ericsson.se>,
> etljyce> etl...@etlxdmx.ericsson.se wrote:
>
> etljyce> I rang GUN in the UK and was told by GUN that
> Windsurfer
> etljyce> are refusing to even advertise the sails let alone
> review
> etljyce> them. I t would seem that because GUN are priced so
> low
> etljyce> for very high quality sails that they are stealing
> some
> etljyce> of the market from the other over priced sail
> makers.
>
> James> There is something wrong with this picture... A
> magazine
> James> doesn't refuse advertising unless it's an illegal
> product
> James> or otherwise is not profitable. IMO you're getting a
> load
> James> from Gun. Incidendally, Gun didn't make out too well
> here
> James> in the USA... -jc
I think that many surf magazines are prejudiced when testing the
GUN sails and other cheaper brands.
In real live they perform very well on the list of fastest
production sails.
I also do not know why a magazine would refuse a brand to
advertize?
In holland you can buy the GUN sails also in many surf shops. They
are about 50 to 150 dollars more expensive in a shop then with
mailorder. But then you have service nearby.
Untill now I did buy about 18 sails (of different brands) and have
never used any guarantees.
The only times something breaks (after a jump or failed cheese
roll), it does not fall under the warranties (warranties only last
6 or 12 months),not even with North, NP and Gaastra.
Summarising:
I think that if you want a high performance/quality sail and want
to save some money (I do not know if the GUN is also cheap in
Great Brittain or America), you can buy the GUN sails.
If you want service nearby and appreciate the often very good
advise of your shop holder, or like famous brands and have enough
money. Then you should buy North, NP, Gaastra , Ezzy, Naish, ART,
Simmer, Sailworks enz.
The last two years I didn't invest lots of money in surfing
anymore. So when I buy a sail I have two options:
(1) A famous brand sail, used or of a past year. (Just as good as
a new) there are little inovating enhancements made to sails
(exept race-slalom sails)
(2) A new cheap brand Sail. (often just as good as a expensive
brand).
I must confess, option one has always had my preference. But
again, maybe my next sail...
P.S. I apologize for my badly English (I wrote this letter in a
hurry..eh...OK my English just is bad)
_
_ //
Hang loose \\000 /
\_ _/
J.Denissen | |
(home) jden...@plex.nl
(work) ql...@oce.nl
ellen faller
One reason the prices aren't listed, might be because the address you show
is from Sweden, and if they posted prices, you might not have a clue as to
what that was in dollars? Or would the guys in Australia accessing that site?
Or the folks in Brazil, or France?
Just a thought.
Cellfred
i agree with yolker :-)
Frank Mueller
In article <j9pn2xk...@siete.morgan.com>, jsh...@morgan.com (Jonathen Shell ) writes:
>
> I'll tell you what's wrong with this picture. Just take a look at that
> home page that "Jeremy Colville" aka etl...@etlxdmx.ericsson.se so
> readily mentions. Not a price to be seen. If these sails are such a
Check out
http://www.sz-sb.de/TGS/deutsch/gun0y.htm
Only sales prices on last year's sails. However, quite well priced.
I own one Gun sail, it's sturdy, high performance but could rotate better
and collects too much water in the sleeve.
Many windsurfers in Germany sail Gun sails (due to price/performance ratio)
but this year's V8 are selling much better (in fact, the 7.5 is sold out in Germany,
you have to find a store that stocked up on them, and there are still some...)
I also bought a NP recently, they are the better sails, but the price is steep!
Gun is well-advertised in Germany, mail-order only, and even reviewed in Surf (all
over most of Europe). Sounds to me like they should fire their foreign sales reps
and start all over. But they are doing well in Germany.
Their home page is
http://www.sz-sb.de/TGS/TheGunSails.htm
Notice that the English page lacks the above sale prices.
--
Frank Mueller E-Mail: mue...@informatik.hu-berlin.de WWW: http://www.informatik.hu-berlin.de/~mueller
Williamn Oscroft
In article <3267F5...@etlxdmx.ericsson.se>, Jeremy Colville
<etl...@etlxdmx.ericsson.se> writes
>James Calore wrote:
>>
>> In article <3267C1...@etlxdmx.ericsson.se>,
>> etl...@etlxdmx.ericsson.se wrote:
>>
>> > even advertise the sails let alone review them.
>> > I t would seem that because GUN are priced so low for very high quality
>> > sails that they are stealing some of the market from the other over
>> > priced sail makers.
>>
>> otherwise is not profitable. IMO you're getting a load from Gun.
>> Incidendally, Gun didn't make out too well here in the USA...
>> -jc
>>
>>
Being in business myself of import export and agent I feel i can
summerize the situation.
Gun sails are a small part of the windsurf scene as there are now a lot
of maufacturers with way too many products for you to choose from.
Goods are imported from the manufacturer in China. The distributer then
puts on 30-50% on top to the retailer. The retailer then puts 45-75% on
that price then adds the sales tax on top of that.
So a product that costs us here in the U.K 500 pounds, 75 goes to tax,
150 goes to the retail shop, 80 goes to the importer. Therefore 195 is
paid to the manufacturer, who will make at least 100% margin to cover
adverts and sponsors oad holidays in Maui. therfore the sail will cost
around 90 or less to produce.
There you have it. Its the same for all goods that work this way,
therefore goods that you buy direct from manufacturers are cutting out
the importer and shops, and in some cases the tax (if out the eec).
Gun sails are therefore not poor sails/ price ratio, look at the
figures above and tell me that Neil Pride are best because they cost
more, and the shop assistant gives you a smile and good advise because
he like you.
My local lake scorn gun sails. It maybe because you will find that the
whole of this industry will follow, as it cannot sustain these prices,
and you will order direct from the manufacturer for all major goods.
You will find that all advertisers will protest at the Gun brouchure
stuck in the mag, also the main advertisers which pay around 1000-2000
per page for those glossy adds that make you dream that you are in the
lead with Dunky behind you and you are about to win the world cup. It
also makes people think, why the fuck are Pride sails so expensive ?
You've answered your own questions about advertising being withdrawn,
looking at the size of this thread.
I'm in business to make money, not friends, so think on about shelli9ng
out 500 on a new sail that costs less than 90 to produce!!!
--
Williamn Oscroft
Turnpike evaluation. For information, see http://www.turnpike.com/
Jeremy Colville
>
> So, "Jeremy Colville", why don't you tell us what the price for the
> GUN Energy Slalom 7.3 is ?? And if you know, perhaps you'd explain the
> mystery of the missing price list while you're at it. And I'd like to
> know why there is no e-mail address for enquiries, yet they have a
> detailed web page.
>
> visit in person.
>
> Jon.
>
i am happy to give you the price of the 7.3m energy slalom in the UK
it is now 215 gbp or $320. Source GUN sails HQ Scunthorpe England.
Additionally i think the price of the masts is even better value
carbon30 465cm weighing just 2.46 kg cost 95 gbp or approx $140
carbon70 465cm weighing 2.18 kg cost 194 gbp or approx
$290
source GUN 1996 catalogue.
This is considerably cheaper than all the competition. It is much
cheaper than the fibrespar 3000 and lighter to !
I think it has already been explained about the lack of US $ prices.
I think that the equipment for these prices are worth checking out.
As said in other news letters by the German guys it seems that these
sails are getting a good rating in surf magazine too , i dont however
know if this magazine is available in English ?????
All the best Jez.
Jonathen Shell
Seems that GUN has many supporters. Well, Jeremy told me the 7.3 works
out around USD 320.00, which is really quite reasonable, if the sails
are as good as the product's supporters claim.
I think the web site is giving the wrong impression - if you're going
to try and sell globally, then it's worth saying that you're unable to
give prices in every currency in the world. As a start though, US
Dollars are about as global a benchmark as you're going to get.
e...@jaxindy.chem.yale.edu (ellen faller) writes:
ellen> One reason the prices aren't listed, might be because the
ellen> address you show is from Sweden, and if they posted prices,
ellen> you might not have a clue as to what that was in dollars?
ellen> Or would the guys in Australia accessing that site? Or the
ellen> folks in Brazil, or France?
ellen> Just a thought.
hugh
folks,
i don't know what GUN sails are actually like,and I don't know for
sure why the UK magazines won't test them. but....
i did speak recently to another brand importer who couldn't get tested in
the UK magazines. his explanation was that the UK magazines did not want
to test equipment that was sold direct. much/most of the magazines
advertising comes from shops, and the direct sales brands are a threat to
their main source of ads - hence no testing. without testing the brand
success is severly threatened - so no threat to the shops and no threat
to their advertising revenue.
major manufacturers do advertise, but each one puts in one ad, and there
are a lot more shops than manufacturers..
while i can't claim that this scenario is true, it does seem possible,
and i would like to hear the UK magazines response to this. it would
mean that their motive in testing is to get the consumer to buy stuff
that results in lots of advertising revenue for them, and not
neccessarily the best deal for the consumer....
hugh
p.s. BOARDS mag does carry GUN advertising (including their price list),
but the last time i remember seeing a sail tested was in 1991 or so.
p.p.s. as for the debate on why the GUN don't have international prices
on their site, i don't think Gaastra have either, and i suspect that
pryde's international site also has no prices.
---------------------------------------------------------------
Note: the opinions expressed in this note are purely personal, and do not
necessarily represent those of my employer.