WideBodies with Twin Fins: Stillborn?
(Pete Cresswell)
Is this one of those things that sounds good, but doesn't work in real
life?
My agenda is that it seems like I'm fighting nature by not getting a
widebody as my big board, but the super-long fins don't seem like a
very good match for the low-tide baysailing that I do about half the
time...
-----------------------
Pete Cresswell
Ray Kuntz
It does seem like a good idea whose time has come for the reason you
give, but it doesn't appear as though anyone has done it correctly yet.
Ray
WARDOG
I've been advocating for twin fin widebodies for a couple of years.
I've mentioned it several times on this NG.
There hasn't been an honest attempt at making it work, that I know of.
The Hi Fly Madd is the closest production to effort to date.
It will take someone willing to think outside of the box, instead of
saying that it can't work and then citing an example of an airplane wing
or going on about drag coefficients.
There is a rail/fin relationship that generates lateral resistance in
coordination with the sail and sailor and determines AOA and boat speed.
I know that when I am riding the GO 170, only the back corner of the
board and the fin is touching the H20. On shortboards there is a
relationship between footstrap placement and the fin...it seems that a
fin could be placed in the same area on each side of a widebody.
I think that the fin(s) and possibly the hull may not look like what is
currently available or may incorporate a fin/keel combo or
hydrofoil...there may be some sort of an integrated retractable system.
The problem is, that windsurfing is not the America's Cup with a large
R&D budget. Another problem is that as soon as someone figures it out,
someone else will duplicate it and make the money that the originator
should have made for his/her effort and originality.
It's blind man's bluff right now at the cutting edge of Formula with
bragging rights and unit sales at stake...I don't see anyone with the
capital to deviate from the current course and still stay in the race.
It will take lots of failures and a trial and error approach...
maybe Ted Turner or Bill Koch will start windsurfing and help us
out...;-)
WARDOG
http://surfingsports.com
Weed Fin
<<I don't see anyone with the
capital to deviate from the current course and still stay in the race.
It will take lots of failures and a trial and error approach...
maybe Ted Turner or Bill Koch will start windsurfing and help us
out...;-)>>
I kayak past Bill Koch's house on Billionaire Row, Oyster Harbor every now and
then. The dude loves to spend money on material objects. He has so many boats,
he bought his own marina. He's kind of on the eccentic side, I truely believe
if he ever got into windsurfing, he would build giant fans on his waterfront
property for those non windy days.
Dan Weiss
--
Dan
"Weed Fin" <wee...@aol.com> wrote in message
news:20020421191125...@mb-cg.aol.com...
Paul Scrutton
upwind, at all times. I couldn't drive it like a regular board. It was an
absolute struggle to get the board to stay on a reach. I've had some good
experiences (or should I say excellent) on Widebody boards..Seatrend AVS 80,
Starboard Free Formula. The Techno twin-fin was a whole different thing
though. Peter from ABK suggested that putting the mast base more forward may
have helped some. I wonder if the fins were the right size, or maybe teh
sail I was using was mismatched. It was probably a setup issue, but I think
that I'll stick with single finned boards for now.
Paul
"(Pete Cresswell)" <x@y.z> wrote in message
news:gda6cu8nfavlmflaj...@4ax.com...
Steven Slaby
> Absolutely hated it...unfortunately. It seemed like it wanted to point
> upwind, at all times. I couldn't drive it like a regular board. It was an
> absolute struggle to get the board to stay on a reach. I've had some good
> experiences (or should I say excellent) on Widebody boards..Seatrend AVS 80,
> Starboard Free Formula. The Techno twin-fin was a whole different thing
> though. Peter from ABK suggested that putting the mast base more forward may
> have helped some. I wonder if the fins were the right size, or maybe teh
> sail I was using was mismatched. It was probably a setup issue, but I think
> that I'll stick with single finned boards for now.
>
Did it my any chance have the footstraps inboard ?
The first time I took out my Formula 175 I found the same thing happening.
After I moved the straps outboard (previous onwer had them forward and
inboard) I was able to easly control where I wanted to point, including
reaching.
Steve.
--
"The surest sign that intelligent life exists elsewhere in the universe is
that it has never tried to contact us" (Bill Watterson)
Jsmin
because you could not change out the fin. I rode one and it seemed a
lot different than a single fin board...the leeward rail would rise up
and buck me off the board sometimes (that is buck me off more than
normal).
Ray Kuntz
was with the fins, BIC used a nonstandard fin box on this board that
didn't allow refinning and the supplied fins sucked, so no one will ever
know if better fins would have helped. I understand that the Tiga
version of the board used a single center fin and it worked much better.
Ray
Will V
I've sailed the HiFly MAXX twin fin for a few hours at La Ventana Bay this
year.
These are my impressions:
* It was very loose on the water for its size
* Jibed as good as the other "Red" freeride boards HiFly makes - I sailed
(279 & 274 as well)
* Carried an 8.5 - but the 7.5 seemed perfectly for it.
* Non-Skid was worn off to the point that is was dangerous
* Jumped fine and landed fine.
* Sailed in control when overpowered.
* Sailed like a shortboard vs. say a wideboard.
Overall, I was impressed and thought it could be a good option for shallow
water venues.
I'm now sailing a START every once in a while for light-air and it's
working... but Fran W's latest report makes me want the new x186 ;) Since
it's been blowing 5.0 all month around here, I have yet to dial into the
START completely.
Take it easy,
-WillV-
"(Pete Cresswell)" <x@y.z> wrote in message
news:gda6cu8nfavlmflaj...@4ax.com...
The Dog
is a BIG guy. Not many boards would be able to buck him off. He
could probably keep a longboard with centerboard down on the water.
Dog
Will V wrote:
>
> Pete,
>
> I've sailed the HiFly MAXX twin fin for a few hours at La Ventana Bay this
> year.
>
> These are my impressions:
[snip]
--
Brian "The Dog" Cunningham
http://web2.airmail.net/bcunning
Some days you're the dog,
and some days you're the hydrant.
Will V
Wish I waz on my way to sail with you guys....still working on a San
Antonio/Dallas/Houston trip in the next 2 months or so....will touch base
prior.
Good winds to ya'll.
-WillV-
"The Dog" <bcunnin...@airmail.net> wrote in message
news:3A5FF049FD6C2BA5.F42B2D76...@lp.airnews.net...
Jsmin
heck is going on?"). I have tried the Techno 283 and it is super easy
by comparison.
Jsmin
Paul Scrutton
indication that I may have had the mast base too far back. I was using a 7.2
NP Spirit I think, with it, and initially had the mast base in the center of
the track. As this yielded horrible results, I moved it back, thinking that
might help. That made no discernable difference. Of course, what I should
have done was moved it forward. I also lowered the boom, which should have
helped possibly, but didn't. When I came in, Peter did suggest that I should
have tried moving the mast forward, he also said that the newer model was
much better.
The footstraps I can't remember where they were, but I think that they may
have been somewhat inbound, I'm not sure.
Anyhow, especially in that this was a demo, with limited time on hand, I
think that maybe someone should have spent a bit more time with the setup if
the intention is to sell this gear. So, much more gear worked immediatly
well on the water. Kudos to Starboard and AHD.
Paul
"Paul Scrutton" <pa...@paulscrutton.com> wrote in message
news:ETJw8.74308$XP2.26...@typhoon.southeast.rr.com...
frusdniw
> Well re-reading an article on trouble-shooting stance
Paul, what article is this? Two of my sailing buddies and I have had
questions about certain conditions and stance issues. I'd like to have a
"troubleshooting" guide.
Thanks,
--
Hans - in CC, TX
http://windsurf.hansanderson.com/
http://windlog.hansanderson.com/journal/hans
Paul Scrutton
in the mail to me this weekend. I think that it's in the 'Loft' area of the
catalogue.
Paul
"frusdniw" <frus...@spam-go-away.com> wrote in message
news:Pine.LNX.4.21.0204222116120.3295-100000@balingwire...
Bill Kline
Cobra in 1980. IT had short twin fins, square tail, very stable sailing the
Gorge almost alone.
Now the new ones. I do need to sail the Madd to see which fins work good.
We are making replacemen ttwin fins for the Bic. Also will have twin weed fins
available soon.
Wish I had more to say. There is a lot for me to learn.
Bill Kline
Gorge Sport USA
Curtis Performance Fins, Orca Fins, Orca Kite Fins
Hood River, OR USA
bil...@gsport.com www.gsport.com
ph/541 387 2649 fax/541 386 1715
The Dennises
going to be superior for speed.
:- long fin has low centre of lift requiring/allowing weight
out on the rails enabling high leverage against the sail.
Short fins just aren't going to do that.
Wal
(Pete Cresswell) <x@y.z> wrote in message
news:gda6cu8nfavlmflaj...@4ax.com...
WARDOG
The Dennises wrote:
> long fin has low centre of lift requiring/allowing weight
> out on the rails enabling high leverage against the sail.
>
> Short fins just aren't going to do that.
You may be right in the current incarnation with the current train of
thought. What needs to happen is for someone with dinero and desire to
think outside of the box. It is going to be a fin, hull, rail, keel kind
of deal...here are some ideas:
http://www.geocities.com/aerohydro/Seafliertext.htm
http://www.foils.org/miller.htm
http://www.foils.org/sailbord.htm
Possibly twin keel for example:
http://www.johnsboatstuff.com/Boat%20Designs/Grenada%2024/twinkeel.htm
Windsurfing is a small, poor sport with not much money for R&D contrary
to popular belief.
Dennis Conner just received hull #77 in his quest for the America's Cup
2003 title in Auckland, NZ:
http://www.stars-stripes.com/news/story_detail.taf?story_uid=41
http://www.americascup.co.nz/
http://www.pradalunarossa.com/
WARDOG
http://www.surfingsports.com
Lowjiber
I do a lot of sailing in an area that will not support the long fins at much
more than an hour on either side of high tide, and shared the same objection
to getting a widebody. At a meager 220lbs, I need all the help I can get in
light wind conditions.
My dealer (Sandy Point, Daytona) fixed me up with one of the "low aspect
ration" fins by Curtis for my new widebody board. Fin has a lot of surface
area while only drawnig 47cm. While not having the lift of the longer fins,
this seems to work fairly well, and the board is certainly superior
(planning wise) to my longboard in the lighter winds.
I've also tried one of the long weed fins (big as a daggerboard) with
limited success. It seems to bring the center of lateral resistance too far
back for the big sail (9+) and light wind combo. Board will plane quickly,
but looses much of the steerage that you'd expect.
Just a thought for the group.
John Crumpley
JAWS Jax, Fl
Platt Johnson
> limited success. It seems to bring the center of lateral resistance too far
> back for the big sail (9+) and light wind combo. Board will plane quickly,
> but looses much of the steerage that you'd expect.
I'll bet that someone could make a board with the tuttle box about a
foot further forward so that the weed fin would then have it's CLR
(center of lateral resistance) in the right place. You could even
build this feature in to a board and use the plug for the fin box not
being used.
I'd like to seee more work done on twin fins starting with dropping
boxes into a standard board and then testing it against a non twin fin
identical model. That is the only way to figure it out.
Platt
<a target=_top href="http://www.islandsports.com">www.islandsports.com</a>
Ray Kuntz
of the box for this.
Ray
sailquik (Roger Jackson)
Have either of you tried the new Curtis Someweed and the 45-40 transition angle
Santa Barbara weed fins?
Both of these designs solve much of the "CLR too far back" problems.
It was for this very reason that the new designs were suggested, and they work
far better on the wider boards.
Not only is the CLR much further forward, but they are deeper, which helps keep
the rail up more like a vertical fin.
In my opinion dual fins, or moving the fin box forward are not the answer here.
Getting fins that compliment the newer board designs seems a much better way to go.
Hope this helps,
Roger
The Dog
>
> Hi Guys,
> Have either of you tried the new Curtis Someweed and the 45-40 transition angle
> Santa Barbara weed fins?
The Someweed just doesn't have enough angle for places like Bird.
Dog
Bill Kline
It did win the races in South Padre, despite some weed catching. Several top
finishes.
The New Formula Weed are done and will shed all weeds for those areas. Sizing
will be 50 and 56 in Deep Tuttle and Power.
First ones will be introduced at US Nationals in Corpus Christie at which we
are a sponsor. I will introduce at a clinic, tentatively set for Fri am.
We will have them available for sale in early June
The Dog
>
> That is why it is called the Someweed.
>
> It did win the races in South Padre, despite some weed catching. Several top
> finishes.
>
> The New Formula Weed are done and will shed all weeds for those areas. Sizing
> will be 50 and 56 in Deep Tuttle and Power.
Ooooooo.... You could have sold me one of those for my Start last
year. Though I've been perfectly happy with my 44cm Weed. Yeah,
I know it's supposed to be a compromise over a blade or a Someweed....
But it's hard for me to tell.
Bill Kline
WEED: sheds ALL Weeds
SOMEWEED some weeds, might work at Bird Island, not sure or may vary
SORTAWEED: some lighter weeds, great smooth ride in high winds, wide board,
faster for most in high wind formula
Good luck
frusdniw
> SOMEWEED some weeds, might work at Bird Island, not sure or may vary
Bird, probably... there are spots on the lee shore of the common SE that
requires the bad boy Weed, though. Many people at BIB have been running
normal fins lately... pointers, wave slaloms, freerides, etc. No big
patches. The big cabbageheads are gone, too. It's just water &
fish right now, with some small stinging jellies that are really hard to
find (but two friends have found them in the last week).