Non-Daggerboard for Planing only?!
a021...@my-deja.com
struggling for weeks now in making my first
gear-getting decision. I've had 3 lessons on the
colossal Hifly Primo and did well (we had kind of
gusty conditions for a Dallas summer- up to 15
knots or so). It's clear that I don't want to
start off with a sailboat like the Primo- I only
weight 62 kg for starters, and lugging that thing
around would quickly cause severe back pain).
So the question is, what *do* I want to get? I've
read all the Starboard Go on this board (searching
for it yields hundreds of hits on deja.com vs.
just in the 10s for most other boards I've looked
up). So it's clear that there has to be something
there for so much interest to exist.
My instructor was willing to let me use his Go
demo board for an hour or so on the last day of
lessons. I had been talking so enthusiastically
about it; he was not a big fan but was willing to
let me take it out for a spin. I was pretty
excited to hop on board after reading all of the
glowing reports here and in the magazines. We had
a nice sidewind breeze, so the idea was to go
straight out on a beam reach, tack, and then come
straight back in. That was the goal anyway.
Unfortunately, due to my lack of skill, I couldn't
get the thing to go in a straight line out from
shore. I kept drifting downwind, farther and
farther from my launch point. When I was about 50
yards out, I decided to try a tack and see if I
could go up wind at all. So I tried raking the rig
back to get the board to face into the wind (as I
was getting so comfortable with and accustomed to
doing on my big training board). To my surprise,
nothing much happened. I just kept drifting
farther downwind.
To make a long story short, I ended up swimming to
shore, and walking back to our class area with my
head lowered.
So my question is this. Do you *have* to be
planing in order to go upwind on a standard,
centerboard-less rig? I realize that's the goal,
to be going fast enough so that you can steer with
your feet and not with the rig, and kind of use
your momentum to get going upwind. But is there
any way to be in displacement mode and to be
expert enough to point between 10 and 2 on the
wind clock? Does it just take a big enough sail,
or are there actual techniques that one can learn?
I guess I'm still trying to decide what board to
get. I have narrowed it downto these three: the Go
(still waiting to give it a "go"), the HiFly Maxx
(seems like the sportiest board with a
centerboard), and the Bic Techno 283 (seems like a
more mainstream board than the Go, and might allow
me to progress a little farther in my turning
ability than the Go).
Is it just hype about the Go being such a
revolutionary board? It seems like it when you
read material like "If the Go had been around 15
years ago, then everyone would be a windsurfer by
now". I kind of don't think so. I would probably
Go with it if the lee boards were available for
upwind capabilities, but apparently they won't be
out until February.
Thanks, guys and gals.
-- Stewart
Sent via Deja.com http://www.deja.com/
Before you buy.
Den Fox
As far as I am aware, the Go hasn't reached Europe. I've never seen it
or met anyone who has. It could be that in the USA there is a huge
promotional drive. But respected NG members Roger and Ellen both praise the
board highly, so I would imagine that the board really has struck on a magic
formula for success.
A dagger-less board can be made to go upwind sub planing speeds. If you
are having your lessons on a board with a daggerboard, I can understand why
your instructor hasn't taught you this technique. Essentially you must tip
the board so that an edge (rail) engages the water. This substitutes the
daggerboard. It is quite unlikely that you could sail anywhere as steep
into the wind as your Hifly Primo with its 10 o'clock and 2 o'clock ability,
but you can certainly make good progress upwind.
Why the Go didn't point into wind when you raked the rig back, I'll
never know for sure without watching you. It will! Theory tells us that it
will! But if you tell the board to do something like "point up wind when I
rake the sail back", then counter that order with something like "ignore all
other orders when I stick my bum out", then even the Go will become confused
and tell you to swim home!
I'm old school windsurfing, so my advice would be to carry on for a
while with a daggerboard. But get used to sailing with the dagger kicked
up. This will prepare you for your short board. Also, the advice I give to
all beginners, don't rush out to buy a board. Rent! It is so much cheaper
in the long run because you outgrow learner kit very quickly. When you
really are ready for a board of your own, you will know exactly what you
need to buy.
Den
<a021...@my-deja.com> wrote in message news:8omg75$e4i$1...@nnrp1.deja.com...
(Pete Cresswell)
>So my question is this. Do you *have* to be
>planing in order to go upwind on a standard,
>centerboard-less rig?
No, but some boards/skegs point better than others.
Some years ago, I went side-by-side on my ProTech 9'10" giant slalom with two
guys on (I think...) an F2 Lightning, and something else just as big.
Both had their boards down. We all had 7.something sails, and it was nowhere
near planing conditions.
We went back-and-forth across Pamlico Sound for a couple of hours pointing
hard....and I pretty stuck with them.
-----------------------
Pete Cresswell
Ellen Faller
Starting with your last question first, even "pro" sailors won't be
able to sail between 11 and 1 o'clock because you really can't sail
"into" the wind. Good upwind technique on a planing shortboard, or on a
longboard, will get some of us to 10:30 or 1:30 but we will be slow, and
most people can achieve 10 or 2 comfortably and efficiently when planing
after practice and time on the water. Even then, and even the best
sailors, will have to follow a zigzag course, tacking several times to
regain the ground lost downwind. Even with a centerboard down, there are
limits that no one can go past. In very light wind, you will be able to
sail more easily upwind on a longboard with the centerboard down as the
centerboard will provide a lot of lateral resistance to "slippage"
downwind as you sail forward. A longboard also has harder and longer
rails which help.
As for swimming in and walking back, there is really no shame there!
We've all done that in the course of learning the sport. It serves as
incentive for mastering all the other funky bits of windsurfing
technique. This sport has a notorious way of humbling each of us just as
we think we've mastered something. You have to be determined, obstinate,
stubborn, thrive on overcoming challenges and somewhat nuts to progress.
Welcome! I've taught lots of people and some things are universal to
novice sailors. Your upwind experience is just one of them. In
comparison to 15, 10 or even 5 years ago, YES, learning to windsurf is
WAY easier. You still have to enjoy(?) frustration and all that too, but
the threshold is now lower. People are now sailing in a few weeks at a
level it took me years to achieve (I was an Iron Age beginner).
I see nearly every student go through the same thing you went
through. Some of it has to do with how you are using the rig to get
powered up, and steer, and there are other factors, all of which would
be too long to go into here. If you have some questions about the
technique, I will happily discuss them with you separately.
In your case when trying the GO, it sounds as if you did not have the
starbilizers on the sides of the board. That will make a big difference!
(And you are correct that they will be unavailable until next year.) You
would have to have mastered light wind shortboard upwind technique to
make good progress back upwind to your launch. You would have had the
same problem on the Techno, any shortboard, or even the Maxx with its
centerboard up.
You don't mention what kind or size sail you were using on the board.
With a trainer sail, and no side fins, I am not really surprised that
you had some difficulty turning. Again, practice and some coaching will
help with that no matter what board you are on.
I teach on a GO and I also have a Primo so I have some feeling for
where you are at. Most of my students prefer the GO (with the side fins)
to the Primo because it is easier to turn, and does not have a
centerboard that they have to step over and around on the deck, nor does
the cb get stuck on the bottom. It is also 20 pounds lighter at 23 lbs,
which I notice! The Maxx will be somewhere in between on weight at 35 lb
(I think).
As for what board to actually purchase, clearly I personally favor
the GO as an instructor and as a windsurfer, but the HiFly Maxx (with
cb) or the Bic Techno 293, the F2 320 Phoenix, Mistral Malibu would also
be good boards for you to progress onto. You will be able to use any of
these boards as your light wind board even after you are doing planing
jibes on a much smaller board. The Techno 283 would be less desirable
for you now, in my opinion, as it has less volume than the others, and
will not be quite as user friendly to you as a novice. The Techno 293
has more volume and the option of a center fin, just as the GO has the
side fins. The Phoenix and Malibu both have centerboards, but sail very
nicely without them. A light rig will also be a big help to you.
More specifically on the GO, it is a very mainstream board and I sail
it happily in winds up to 25 mph with the long stock fin. In fact I
recently had the chance to sail it in winds of around 35 mph with a 3.8
wave sail and it was a blast. Last year someone won the amateur category
of the Canadian Nationals on a GO. I sail my GO in all conditions, and
for freestyle, and if I had to pick one board to own for everything, it
would be the GO.
Maybe you've read this but I offer this as more of my opinion:
http://www.epinions.com/otdr-review-42A4-1A10141B-384D8D12-bd3
In any case, welcome to the pool. The water is great, just jump in and
join the fun!
Ellen
Roy Tansill
Hi Stewart,
I don't know if they are still available but Worldwinds (rental/lessons/used
gear shop near Corpus Christi TX) had a pair of Go board side fins (and the
big elliptical beginner fin also) for sale earlier this year. They were off
a Go that an intermediate bought and he didn't want them. Give them a try
at mailto:sa...@worldwinds.net
Ellen would probably know if they will fit a newer Go, they were off of a
'99 model and used 2 long screws to attach to the rail area.
Roy Tansill
sailquik
If you have the Starbilizers and this fellow doesn't want
them, please let me know.
I have a young student who's dad bought her a GO and they've been
having trouble finding a set of Starbilizers.
There is no difference in the model years as far as the
side fins are concerned. They are slotted so there's a
little vertical adjustment so the fit nice and snug on
the rail radius.
Regards, Roger
--
sailquik (Roger Jackson) US 7011
Sailworks/Starboard/System B/True Ames/Chinook
Mark N
"Den Fox" <YOUKNO...@alphasurf.de> wrote in message
news:8omjpk$b5649$1...@ID-47381.news.cis.dfn.de...
> Stewart,
>
> As far as I am aware, the Go hasn't reached Europe. I've never seen
it
> or met anyone who has.
It's certainly made it to the UK. Many dealers now sell them, and I've seen
a couple in action at Calshot (on the Solent). Haven't tried one yet
though...
Mark
Tom McClelland
>>planing in order to go upwind on a standard,
>>centerboard-less rig?
Absolutely not, in fact in a sub-planing wind on a short board it actually
requires good technique to *avoid* heading up. Bearing away can be seriously
difficult. I suspect that your problems may be down to factors like a
too-small rig, too little wind for control without a daggerboard, incorrect
mast-foot positioning. As a beginner you want a small rig for easy uphauling
and fear-free control but a small rig is harder to rake back sufficiently to
make a large but daggerboardless board head up. Its centre-of-effort just
can't get far back enough.
Regards
Tom
Ellen Faller
May I ask where you are in Europe? I have a Starboard catalogue for
the 2000 models, and it lists a number of distributors in Europe. There
is no one listed for Netherlands, or Germany, but someone is there for
"central Europe," plus France, UK, Ireland, Denmark, Austria, Poland,
Czech Rep, Portugal, Spain and Switzerland. Perhaps I can guess from
this evidence.
If you have an address, maybe someone can send you a catalogue of the
2001 line and put you in touch with a distributor. I can't seem to use
your email address so I'm mentioning it briefly here.
Ellen
Wolfgang Soergel
>
> Den,
> May I ask where you are in Europe? I have a Starboard catalogue for
> the 2000 models, and it lists a number of distributors in Europe. There
> is no one listed for Netherlands, or Germany, but someone is there for
> "central Europe," plus France, UK, Ireland, Denmark, Austria, Poland,
> Czech Rep, Portugal, Spain and Switzerland. Perhaps I can guess from
> this evidence.
> If you have an address, maybe someone can send you a catalogue of the
> 2001 line and put you in touch with a distributor. I can't seem to use
> your email address so I'm mentioning it briefly here.
Starboard is available in Europe and Germany (the central european
distributor, APM Marketing in / near Munich also delivers the German
market) and they sell well, especially Formulas to racers. But it's not
the big hype around here about the Go which readers of this group are
made to believe to be in existence over the pond. Part of the reason may
be that Starboard is more expensive here than most other brands, the
other reason may be that we still have relatively many shops and
Starboard, although present in many, does not have as widespread a
distribution net than say Mistral, Bic or F2 or (by virtue of being
distributed by Neil Pryde) RRD. But they are present, get tested (with
good results) in the rags and are seen on the water from time to time.
--
Wolfgang
Steven Slaby
Wolfgang Soergel (wsoe...@lnt.de) writes:
>
> Starboard is available in Europe and Germany (the central european
> distributor, APM Marketing in / near Munich also delivers the German
> market) and they sell well, especially Formulas to racers. But it's not
> the big hype around here about the Go which readers of this group are
> made to believe to be in existence over the pond. Part of the reason may
> be that Starboard is more expensive here than most other brands, the
> other reason may be that we still have relatively many shops and
> Starboard, although present in many, does not have as widespread a
> distribution net than say Mistral, Bic or F2 or (by virtue of being
> distributed by Neil Pryde) RRD. But they are present, get tested (with
> good results) in the rags and are seen on the water from time to time.
>
I get the feeling that price has a big impact as to the popularity of a
board (after considering board reviews, but how many boards do you see getting
poor reviews these days ;-) ). The Starboard GO is a real bargain in Canada
and I get the feeling that they are slowly taking over the lightwind market.
Yesterday was a lightwind day, and there were 5 Starboard GO boards out on
the water (out of maybe 10 boards total??).
Steve.
--
"The surest sign that intelligent life exists elsewhere in the universe is
that it has never tried to contact us" (Bill Watterson)
Den Fox
unbelievable amount of Spam recently. But it's no secret.... Den...@csi.com
As you guessed, I'm a Brit living on the German / Dutch border. All my
sailing is in Holland..........and honestly, I have never seen any boards
from Starboard or spoken to anyone who has. There is an advert for them in
the British "Windsurfing" and "Boards" magazines which I read but I can't
gleam much information from the thumbnail sized photo's. Oh, wait one!
"Get hold of a 2000 Starboard catalogue winds...@tushingham.com " Right,
I've done that now!
But tell me; what are these "Starbilators" you mention? Can you make the
board wider? Is this how it can be suitable for beginners and experts?
Den
"Ellen Faller" <eleanor...@yale.edu> wrote in message
news:39AFDBBF...@yale.edu...
Nigel Tailyour
start with a board over 3 meters with a dagger board.
Thats just my opinion,
Nigel
Nigel Tailyour
this year,
Love them both
NigelT
Vaughan Sanders
Den Fox <YOUKNO...@alphasurf.de> wrote in message
news:8omjpk$b5649$1...@ID-47381.news.cis.dfn.de...
> Stewart,
>
> As far as I am aware, the Go hasn't reached Europe. I've never seen
it
> or met anyone who has. It could be that in the USA there is a huge
> promotional drive. But respected NG members Roger and Ellen both praise
the
> board highly, so I would imagine that the board really has struck on a
magic
> formula for success.
>
Den the Starboard range is imported into the UK by Tushingham Sails, Wet and
Dry Boardsports
in my part of the country, has sold lots of the GO's. A friend of mine who
thinks he is the best speed sailor in the country (certainly the heaviest)
"big Criss" has one as his light wind board.
I was out to day in pretty strong offshore winds, and there was a beginner
out on a GO with a 6m, getting on really well I thought (I was using a 8.3)
.
The Formulae 155's have been in short supply in our part the country, but
this was because my mate Graham at Wet and Dry, wasn't sure about them and
didn't order them early enough. Two of our top racers have them now, one
using Nitro's and the other RX2's.
Paul Trussler who used to annihilate everyone locally, with a RRD Goldstripe
/ 93 Z1 and was good enough to take on Dunkerbeck at the Brighton WC a few
years ago, has a 155, I dread to think what he is going to do with a 155 and
10.6 RX2.
Incidentally Graham has a Starboard Sonic Large 75 that has stood in the
shop for over a year, that is now out on demo.
This board coupled with a 9.5 Streetracer, is one nice piece of equipment,
he has had GO's out on demo ever since the where produced, along with Fish,
Carves etc.
BTW Graham is even teaching his grandchildren to sail on a GO, their Dad
Jamie, is one of the top BWA sailors, a AHD team member, but he still chose
the GO rather than a 78, to teach his children to sail.
Ps the Airush (Starboard) kite boards are also very popular here, although
the AHD seemed to be the favourite, but they are both, now being challenged
by RRD kite boards.
Jamie
Jamie Sanders
Chalkwell Wimdsurfing Club
http://freespace.virgin.net/ken.rosier/cwc.htm
Sharkie
"Den Fox" <YOUKNO...@alphasurf.de> wrote:
>Essentially you must tip the board so that an edge (rail)
>engages the water. This substitutes the daggerboard.
@#$&^%#$%!! If someone told me this a few weeks ago, this would
save me around 4 hours of sailing back and forth (or actually
"left and right - how my better half expressed it :) and
even more hours of explaining later that I didn't abandon her,
that I actually did try to come back to shore, but my
upwind skills are not the best... It took me only 15 minutes to
go the other way. Lucky for me the wind shifted from straight
off shore to somewhat side off shore, allowed me to come back
still on board.
Anyway, what's the technique? You just dig the rail into the water?
And which rail, I assume the windward one.
Learning-shortboarding-Sharkie
--
If the human brain were so simple
that we could understand it,
we would be so simple we couldn't.
-Makes Sense... don't it?
Ellen Faller
Not only can you get the catalogue via Tushingham, but you can go
directly to their website at www.star-board.com and see the stuff for
yourself. And Wolfgang has filled in some more of the info more locally
to where you are. I know that there are some places here in the US where
2 brands dominate due to what the local shop sells, or lack of
shop/manufacturer interaction, so it may well be that you are in such a
place.
The "starbilizers" are side fins, or "lee boards" that attach to the
sides of the board in the midsection.
http://www.star-board.com/main2.htm will take you to a picture of one
and how it attachs. They add the necessary lateral resistance in
sub-planing conditions to enable a sailor to sail upwind. My students
like the idea as then they do not have a centerboard top to step
on/over, trip over, etc. Most of the students are able to learn to steer
and sail upwind very easily on the board. Several were able to make a
fast transition to a large shortboard (or the GO without the side fins)
within a short period of time, and thus skipped the purchase of a long
or transition board. I often take the Starbilizers off after I'm done
with lessons, put my big sail on the board, and go out sailing. The
beginners like to see that the board they learned on can really rip.
Ellen Faller
Although it is rarely mentioned, the Sonic Large 75, and its
predecessor which was 10 liters less volume at 135 l, is an excellent
board. It isn't as early a planer as the GO or the Formula, but it is a
rocket with a great ride. I'm only selling mine due to overcrowding in
the van with the 155 and the GO.
Anyone want a Sonic Large 75? It's here in CT.
Ellen
Vaughan Sanders wrote:
> Incidentally Graham has a Starboard Sonic Large 75 that has stood in the
> shop for over a year, that is now out on demo.
> This board coupled with a 9.5 Streetracer, is one nice piece of equipment,
> he has had GO's out on demo ever since the where produced, along with Fish,
> Carves etc.
> Jamie Sanders
Ellen Faller
One stands close to the mast base, usually the forward/upwind foot
next or close to the mast, toes forward, and the back foot a bit farther
back, and across the centerline or on the leeward side for balance
(exactly where depends on the width and volume of your board). You sink
the upwind rail with the front foot, and apply pressure as needed with
the back foot for balance. Hold the rig upright, and away from you. It
needs to be away from you for the balance act also. You can sail quite
close to the wind this way in schlog mode, but you won't get there in a
hurry!
If your wife needs an affidavit from another woman testifying that you
indeed were doing the best you could to return, please let me know.
Those on shore do not always understand the mysteries of the windsurfing
world.
Ellen
Sharkie
Ellen Faller <eleanor...@yale.edu> wrote:
> If your wife needs an affidavit from another woman testifying that
you
> indeed were doing the best you could to return, please let me know.
> Those on shore do not always understand the mysteries of the
windsurfing
> world.
> Ellen
Thanks Ellen - your post should do the trick :)
I'll try this technique (sinking the rail) next time
there is not-enough-to-plan wind.
Den Fox
that time I saw two Starboard Gos on the water, and one in a shop. So it
seems that the Go has reached my part of the world after all.
My first impression was.......not good. I saw it slamming through wind chop
in a strong F3 (possible F4) looking quite uncontrollable. But then I saw
it again on a wind-less day being shared by three kids and I realised that
in this situation it is a wonderful introduction to windsurfing, though I
rather prefer the sound of the "Start" with its detachable centreboard.
Ideal as a school fleet.
The only thing which puts me off the Go is the price. It was in the shop
selling for 1950 Hfl (= £550 = $800) which in my mind is too much. That's
nearly the same price as the AHD FD70 which I ended up buying for myself.
(more about that when I've tested it.......hope it goes for more than 15 -
30 seconds!)
Den
"Ellen Faller" wrote in message
Sharkie
We had an not-enough-to-plan winds conditions today,
and the wind was sideways towards shore, so I did not
have to go upwind at all, but I wanted to check how much
and how fast can I gain high (upwind speaking). And I could
go upwind pretty good, although it still is hard (compared
with a dagger board), but it's a nice thing to know
once a need arises.
Thanks again Ellen!
In article <39B55ED9...@yale.edu>,
Ellen Faller <eleanor...@yale.edu> wrote:
Ellen Faller
Okay, I'm going to say a few (ha) words on behalf of the GO in
response to your post.
"slamming through wind chop in a strong F3" tells me several things
about the way it was being sailed, notably that the mast was probably
too far forward in the track, the sailor was driving the nose down
somehow, and/or was new to wide style boards. The GO planes on a
rockered surface quite far back and so it rides up, over, and down the
chop.
The first time I was on a GO was with a 6.2 race sail, in 20-24 knot
wind, at least 18" chop, and my feeling before setting out was that it
was going to slam, be a bouncy and mostly uncomfortable ride, but this
feeling was based on previous experience of riding a similar volume
narrow style board. However, after sailing for about 20 minutes, and not
having any of that happen, I began to relax and enjoy the ride. It was
amazing. Not only that, but it was fun.
Most GO owners will sail them comfortably up to 20 mph without a
second thought as the ride is so nice. You do need to have the mast back
in the track in order to free the front of the board from the water.
Quite often at the equipment demos, experienced sailors will try to move
the mast forward to try the board with their big sail and then they are
not able to get planing nearly as easily or early, and do have a harder
ride. If they can be convinced to move the mast back, and get their
weight back on the board, it is a whole other story. The light bulb
turns on, and it's hard to get the board away from them.
When teaching on the GO, I set the mast forward to keep the board
from picking up too much speed. For some of the quick learners, I have
moved the mast back a bit and they get totaly stoked on the increased
speed but with lots of stability.
As for the price, $800 US for a new one is very cheap!! This is not a
board that you would use for one season, and then move away from. You
are buying a board that you can use in a wide range of conditions for
years and years and years, so the cost per year of a quality product is
quite low. I sold my first one after a year of heavy use for close to
what I paid for it, because the demand for it was so high.
I use the GO far more than my AHD Free Diamond 65 which cost
substantially more. Part of that is due to most often encountered wind
speeds locally.
The Start will be a great school board, and also one that can be used
for years and years after the initial purchase.
But hey, at least you now know that they really exist and were not
just a group hallucination by a number of us!
Ellen
Den Fox
It was only my lack of eloquence which made my comment sound like a dig at
the Go. (I just hurriedly re-read my post). My overall impression was good
and I had intended to reflect that in my post. I am well aware that the
chap I saw slamming through wind chop was not an expert. But I do feel that
when used as a school board the price is too high. But this will hopefully
be addressed with the introduction of the Start. Yes, I'm very interested.
(And I have the brochure now).
Den
"Ellen Faller" <eleanor...@yale.edu> wrote in message
news:39BE70EC...@yale.edu...