Anyone tried the new HiFly Motion?
Skeg
been told that many windsurfing schools around the world are buying this one
big time. HiFly says that it tacks much more easily than the Start. Any
experience?
Thanks,
Marc
Brett
1 The most durable construction by far for only a small weight gain.
2 better up wind than Nova and Start
3 More maneuverable than Prodigy
4 Nice built in handle
5 Cheap!
We are renting them and using them for teaching with good results.
Warm winds,
Brett
Ellen
I'll take issue with your remarks on the Motion. I had a father/son
combo for beginning lessons on their new Motion 2 weeks ago.
It was major league heavy, and the kid I was teaching on it (his
board) could not move it alone, even with the handle. The Exocet
Cruiser's roller and soft deck were far more effective. They were really
disappointed. He and his father had been sold the board by a local NE
dealer who told him it was the best trainer board out there. They no
longer wish to deal with this dealer as they feel "taken" on numerous
points and would like to try to return it for something they can use to
better effect. I really hate to see dealers lose credibility this way as
there aren't enough of you guys out there now as it is.
As for the upwind ability of some of these boards, most people I
see having the problems have not been taught how to sail upwind
adequately. Usually they are left to rely on a centerboard, and then
they get stuck when they move onto a shortboard (most common goal of
most beginners these days).
Each of the new beginner boards (I've taught on the Nova, Exocet
Cruiser, Start, Motion, and the Prodigy) has their pros and cons, but I
really think the days of the heavy, poly beginner boards is more than
past.
everyone to their own opinion,
Ellen
Brett
I agree that they can all be used successfully for teaching, and are MUCH
better than anything we had to teach on in past years.
Personally I find all those boards including the Motion pretty piggy and
don't usually sell any of them.
A Go is much better value in the long run because it is easy, but still has
true high performance potential. The beginner board all have pros and cons
as you point out, but all tend to get outgrown.
From the standpoint of school and rental use I prefer the Motion for
durability, and our students have had an easier time pointing on it.
You are certainly correct that proper technique is key to getting upwind,
but there are still some boards that make it easy and some that are hard.
For instance the Nova is stable, but the included center fin is all but
useless.
As far as weight, the Motion is a few pounds heavier than the Start or
Prodigy, but it doesn't seem to affect beginner performance and the boards
are lasting much longer. No Start or Bic has survived more than 6 months
in our fleet without major damage. We have poly HiFly boards 4 years old
in great shape. I expect the same sort of longevity for the Motion. My 4
year old son can drag it on and off the beach.
I can't speak for the other dealer you mention, but it sounds like the
Motion was NOT the most appropriate for that customer. As I (and many
others) have said before it is usually a case of finding the most suitable
gear for a specific situation, rather than one being best for everyone.
That in mind I should qualify my first statement:
If durability is a major concern the Motion is the best beginner board
going. If light weight is a higher priority there are better options.
They are working great for us.
Best,
Brett
Ellen
Thanks for qualifying your remarks. More information is better. We all
appreciate that.
The Yale Sailing Center, and I'm sure many other schools, still have the old
poly HiFlys which will probably survive well into the next millenium. But even
they have sustained damage, and no one wants to use them. Even if you can crash
them into the seawall.
I guess you have one strong kid on your hands, as I found the Motion
extremely heavy and hard to carry more than 10 feet. No one in my student's
family could carry the Motion alone, which means dragging it down the road, in
which case I can see "durability" coming into play. I'd still opt for the
Exocet in that case.
I agree totally on the center "fin" on the Nova.
My concern is with dealers who push certain products without regard for what
the customer could use, or recommend one product over another for reasons of
"margin" and/or too many in stock. The customer goes elsewhere very fast.
You guys are good on customer service and make good recommendations and have
many faithful customers as a result.
Ellen
Brett
It weighs about 6 pounds more than a Start, maybe 3 or 4 more than a
Prodigy.
Cheers,
Brett
PS thanks for the kind words!
Ellen Faller
help. The kid had outgrown the 3.0 trainer sail at the end of the lesson
and was real happy with a 4.2. Since he could get upwind nicely with no
cb, he will be in a harness and cruising soon. Dad will end up with the
Motion as the kid gets the new board.
Ellen
ken
particularly because I hugely respect your opinion, yet the only
objective criticism I could find in your post is "it's heavy" ... you
mentioned little about how it was to sail. Anyway, Brett has defended
the Motion better than I ever could.
Yesterday after work I kicked back with a brown pop in the backyard, and
was idly looking through a 1999 copy of WINDSURF (July or August). The
editorial was about how stoked the writer was after a visit to France,
because it seemed that one in three cars had windsurf racks. He
mentioned about how aware the general population was about windsurfing,
and about the large numbers of people still enjoying the sport on old
Bics, Dufours, and other poly relics that the rec.windsurfing elite
apparently wouldn't get caught dead on.
In order for the sport to get that popular in North America, don't you
think we need MORE poly boards? I'm totally in agreement that the new
wide boards are fantastic (I now own a GO), but they are still quite
fragile and expensive for the new/casual sailor. If I was a non-sailing
dad whose kid wanted to try windsurfing, I sure as heck wouldn't want to
drop $2k + for one of these plus a rig. If, a few years ago, there
wasn't a poly board & rig package around the $1000 mark, I probably
would not have made the impulse purchase that got me started.
Poly boards are fun, dammit. I leave one of my old ones at a friend's
cottage and I still try to ride it when I visit him. Poly boards are
just right for entry-level or casual sailor, or an impulse buy for the
cottage that may spend more time in the boathouse or as a swim-toy. And,
the Hi-Fly's are great boards. North America needs more poly boards.
When Wal-Mart is selling a sailboard, I'll know that windsurfing is
where it should be as a mainstream sport.
ken
(defender of the poly monster)
(no, I'm not affiliated with Hi-Fly, or own stock in DuPont)
Ellen
There are niches for all sorts of boards and Brett has found what works
as school boards in his situation. To address one of your final points
first: Where are you finding these 2K$ beginner setups? A Start costs $650,
others not much more, and most dealers can get you out the door for $1100
with a decent rig that you can continue to *use* and not just a trainer rig
good for a few months.
Some of the differences of opinion on this subject may come down to what
might be called "old style" vs "new style" teaching/learning of the sport.
Until a few years ago, I taught, and thought, quite differently than I do
now. Change is really not a bad thing, for gear, for thinking, for attitude,
for whatever, as long as the change is constructive and adds value to the
enterprise. Life moves on and just because *we've always done it this way*
doesn't mean we have to continue down the same path eternally. Sometimes
something new and better comes along which adds.
My practice and my philosophy is to teach you to windsurf on the best
gear I can find, and then adapt your skills to whatever gear you have, be it
an original windsurfer, a 1989 brand X wave board, or a modern wide board.
First you need the basic skills, then the ability to move them onto whatever
gear is to be used. If asked, I will offer an opinion as to what I think you
will get the most reward from, but I don't sell anything (ok, instructional
videos of others) and the thoughts are merely that, my thoughts based on my
experience.
My recent experience with teaching has been that people are learning to
sail so much faster and better, that they don't need the "old beater trainer
board" in the same way they did 5 years ago. They are in control and steering
nicely so they aren't crashing into rocks, walls, each other, or bombarding
the board with the rig. They want to be out there sailing like the rest of us
as quickly as possible and with lighter more performance oriented gear.
I was disappointed by the Motion for several reasons. First of all, it
was a big disappointment to the family who bought it, which dampened their
new-found enthusiasm for windsurfing. They found it to be heavy, and with the
rig, it cost more than several of the alternative boards in question. We all
found it less responsive, and harder to sail with a given rig. They preferred
the EVA deck to the plastic, no centerboard to step around, and they had no
clue what to do with the dozens and dozens of possible footstrap screw holes.
In shallow water, the centerboard dragged, forcing the handle up and further
cluttering the deck, another complaint.
As for comparison of performance, we started the lesson on my wide board
and the boy did extremely well. Then we moved onto his board and spent some
time getting him adjusted to it. The rig that came with it, altho it was the
same size sail (3.0 m2), was a dacron trainer, was heavier, had less power
and was harder for him to get going. We tried his rig on my board, and my rig
on his board to see what was going on. My rig worked better on his board and
got him moving faster and easier in the same amount of wind than his rig. But
the board was still quite sluggish. Since he was doing very well, I rigged a
slightly larger sail (4.2), and he used it on the Motion with greater
success, but chose to spend the rest of his time on the wide board instead of
the Motion. So did his father.
My experience at the Yale center, with the 2 poly boards, is that they
sustain damage and need to be durable due to *attitude*: because everyone
knows they are supposed to be durable, and thus *no one cares what happens to
them*. At the same time, no one wanted to use them for lessons. I spent more
time repairing holes in the poly boards from abuse and horsing around, than I
did with the other boards. The wide board was in far more demand, and the
students recognized that a little more care was needed, but they liked the
ability to sail on the board instead of wrestling with it. They spent more
time learning to sail, were in more control, fell off way less often, and
enjoyed the greater range of performance. I recognize that poly boards are
fairly non-destructable and will probably outlive us all. And that may be
necessary if the owner doesn't care how the board is treated. However, it
does affect the performance of the board. We all know that performance and
durability are usually inversely related.
I had a similar discussion with another father/son combo on this past
Sunday. This Dad had learned in the 80's, and said his son would be using his
old board after he took the lesson because it just wasn't worth buying a new
board for a beginner. After 2 hours, the son, 15, was sailing back and forth,
tacking, jibing, steering, sailing upwind with no centerboard, and beach
starting. We started with a 4.2 sail, then moved to a 5.0, and finally onto a
7.5. Not surprisingly, the son has no interest in the old board. Dad admitted
that it had taken him years to achieve the same level of proficiency as the
son had in 2 hours. Dad tried the wide board and found it to be a huge
improvement over what he had and is now rethinking the fun factor. The old
board is now out of the equation.
I'd have taken it happily as it is an original Superlight, a board that I
love. I agree that the old classics are still sailable. We learned on them,
slowly but surely. One of my students from 2 yrs ago, is still sailing his
Magnum Nova with the big flappy triangular sails. He's happy, I'm happy that
he's happy. It's about windsurfing and getting people to find the enjoyment
in the sport however it works.
When in an environment where care is not important, poly boards may still
be an option. But for a quick and easy entry into the sport, I will disagree.
thanks for your thoughts and I hope you can see something positive in
mine,
Ellen
Disclaimer: I work for a natural history museum to earn a salary.
On weekends, I teach windsurfing out of my van, on gear that I have found to
produce the best results, as well as on gear that a student owns and wishes
to learn on. I also have been teaching at the Yale Sailing Center, which has
2 HiFly poly boards, is surrounded by rocks, 2 granite jetties, and is hard
on any kind of board, including the poly boards. I've also spent close to 2
months this year teaching on a variety of "beginner" boards in a wide variety
of places, in all kinds of conditions, while doing the "Taste of Windsurfing"
mini-lessons at USW events, assisting Roger Jackson.
ken
Ellen,
Thanks very much for responding; I have a much better idea of where you
are coming from.
More than anything, I was reacting to my initial impression that the
father/son were disappointed with their Motion mainly because you (as
the authority figure) were down on it. I can now see that this may not
be a valid assumption.
At lunch, I bought the summer issue of WINDSPORT, and they have a
round-up of family & starter boards. I see that yes most packages would
be less than $2000 (even in CDN $$). In our market, anyway (Canada) it
seems that one of the Hi-Fly's bundled with their adult rig is still the
most inexpensive new board/rig package, though the Start was close.
For general summer use in cottage country, a centreboard is about
essential. I've been stranded downwind a couple of times on my GO when
the wind faded. A centreboard would have got me home, give or take some
pumping.
I completely appreciate that you have selected the best possible gear to
get your students sailing. I'm trying to think more about windsurfing
and the general public, how they perceive the sport, and why more of
them aren't into it.
The best analogy I can think of is bicycles. There are lots of high-end
quality bikes (like what most of us rec.ws'rs own, probably) and those
of us who have them know there's a difference. But the majority of bikes
out there are basic cheap'n'cheerful models from Wal-Mart, TruValue,
Sears, etc etc. Biking is fairly popular.
Windsurfing models are predominantly high-end and fairly expensive, with
few models at the entry-level or "impulse buy" price-point. We in rec.ws
sneer at poly and earnestly implore newbies to not start out with old
gear. Windsurfing is currently not a very popular sport in North
America, and there's less people involved than 15 years ago. Hmmmmm.....
Thanks for listening.
ken
Ellen Faller
All opinions are welcome and we can all learn from each other. I'm
glad that you understand that it was the family that were disappointed
in the gear. I try to stay right out of that, since if I say anything it
will only make their disappointment deepen. I'll try to help anyone get
windsurfing on whatever gear they turn up with, and let them come to
their own conclusions. It'll come to the same thing with or without me,
and they can then own their own decisions.
I understand the lake/cottage centerboard thing. This was the case
with the 11 yr old and family. But it is reasonably easy to get past the
lightwind upwind sailing in my experience. I also recognize that not
everyone wishes to work on that skill. Their choice. And fine if that is
the way they wish to go. But there are wider boards, not all poly, with
centerboards, that provide more performance as well as being somewhat
lighter.
Between mid April and mid June, I spent almost every weekend teaching
the free Taste of Windsurfing clinics over the eastern US where we had
somewhere between 400-450 people "on board". We were beseiged by people
who were really eager and anxious to learn to windsurf, as well as by
people who'd tried the sport in years past with little success. They all
learned very fast and had amazing success, and not on poly boards. Up to
and including only one person for whom I was seriously tempted to
suggest trying a sport like chess or basket weaving due to serious
coordination issues. Even she wished to persist, and she did and she
actually sailed out and back successfully. I think she quit after that,
but she was very happy and enthusiastically recommended it to others.
Less people than 15 years ago, but vastly more than 5 years ago thanks
largely to the reinvention and renovation of the beginner board and rig.
Poly boards were not part of that "renovation" and were dragged into it
by market pressure. I'm happy if they succeed in their own niche, but it
wasn't because them. To see the difference in the learning curve between
someone on a wide board and on an older long board, is to see a vast
change in the gratification level, faster improvement in skill, greater
interest in the sport, etc. The US Windsurfing magazine had an
interesting article a few months back comparing learning on older long
boards vs the modern wider learning boards, and I see that every time I
teach.
I hope you, and others, get to experience the delight and ease with
which beginners can take to the sport.
thanks for caring,
Ellen
Mark H
Upwind 360s and Heli-tacks on a Motion so it's obviously doing something
well!
"Ellen Faller" <ellen...@prodigy.net> wrote in message
news:3D3F5E6E...@prodigy.net...
Sailworld Cape Cod
My son is 9yrs old, 60 lbs, and of all the boards he has tried which
include the Start, Go 170, Go 200, Bic Techno 293, only the Motion
tacks quickly and easily with a 2.5m kids sail.
Tacking is a VERY important criteria for kids beginning to windsurf so
that parents don't have to chase them down the beach. The Motion
is heavy, but precisely because it has a centerboard, it can be
tacked.
With in this one short summer he has improved to the level that he is
now sailing in winds of 25knots. (Sailed West Dennis
last Monday, I was on a 5.2m and my wife was on a 4.3m). His
improvement is because of the ease in which he was able to learn how
to windsurf with the Motion. After 10 days on the Motion, he moved
onto the Maxx, 167 lt, it too has a centerboard, which when need be he
can tack.
He also uses the 2.5m Hi Fly Dacron Kids rig, which he prefers to
other rigs he has tried because the sail luffs, and gives back sailor
input unlike some of the fully battened sails that actually are like
trying to teach a kid driving in cruise control. The 2.5 and 3.0 are
incredibly light and I don't think that these Dacron sails are any
heavier, wet or dry then a comparably battened mono sail, the 2.5m
weighs in at 2lbs 7oz according to my postage scale.
Until he used the Motion, it was very frustrating watching him try to
tack, do everything correctly, and still not have the board come
around.
The Motion worked for us.
Good Sailing,
Jim Ballantyne
Sailworld Cape Cod
Ellen
My remarks are based on a lesson I gave to an 11 yr old and his father. The
opinions are what came forth at the time. They've sailed at home since then in
higher winds on their lake and the son was ripping according to Dad. I agree
completely on the importance of tacking. Kids sometimes have a harder time with
it because they are lighter and their weight does not affect the board the way it
does for an adult. We've also found several tips to make tacking easier and more
efficient with the small sails.
If people wish to learn on a board with a centerboard, that is fine. Most
people want to get into shortboarding, and I find that the US Sailing techniques
on a wide board with a center fin work extremely well to get them sailing very
quickly and easily, including tacking and sailing upwind. There are certainly
conditions where people may continue to choose to use a cb, but I don't see that
there is a rigorous necessity to do so after my experiences this year.
I used to use dacron trainer sails, thinking, as you have observed, that
the sailor got more feedback from them than from a fully battened sail. My
experience in the past year has been quite different and I have moved away from
using those sails. In my opinion, they work better on the longer boards so it may
be right for the Motion. It may also be that a smaller battened sail of
appropriate scale works as well as a slightly larger dacron sail. However we as
instructors can get people to enjoying the sport quickly and easily works for me.
Consider what many of us learned on.
My experience is just that, *my* experience, and it repeats itself week in and
week out. It is not a one-time event. Since April I've worked with over 400
beginners in all kinds of conditions so this is not just a handful of
individuals. Many of these people have left the lesson and gone right out and
bought boards (of whatever brand), often that day. Something must be working
right.
I've had the chance to work with a number of entry level boards and I will
stick with my opinion that the Start, and Cruiser are my first choice, with the
Prodigy, Discovery, and Fanatic and Nova next. I have only seen the Discovery and
Fanatic boards and have not yet had a chance to teach someone on them, but will
probably do so sooner or later. I haven't seen even a picture of the AHD beginner
board but that will be interesting to try also.
I hope that some of these new windsurfers have been finding their way to your
store! They come back with boards and keep on windsurfing so the signs are good.
Ellen
To recap, we began the lesson on the Start with a 3.0 Start sail. In 20 min on
the water the boy was sailing out, tacking, and sailing back to where he started.
I removed the tether. He sailed on his own for another 30 min with no problem.
Then the son and I worked on jibing, and then beach starting. At that point we
rigged the 4.2 sail and the kid was having a ball. I left him to sail for another
40 minutes on his own. Then he went out on the Motion again with the 4.2 sail and
was happier with more power. We ran over the usual time allotment but this was
their chance to have a lesson and I didnt' have anyone until afternoon. By the
time he left, the son could sail easily with the 4.2 sail in 8-11 mph and could
handle any higher gusts with no problem.
Ray Kuntz
doubt that if the "Motion" has the slim white plastic thingy of a
daggerboard and nice soft rails that it sails back upwind much better
than a Start with its removable centerboard installed.
HiFly is to be commended for marketing wide boards long before they
became the rage and recognizing the merits of durable construction, but
none of their shapes has ever been talked about like the Tiga 260 was.
Just how difficult would be for them to reverse engineer a Start or any
good formula board for that matter and stick that little plastic
daggerboard in it if they feel it's so important, then they'd have
something.
Either that or resurrect a good displacement hull, not intended for
planing, like the Wayler One Design.
One further note, ease of tacking by a 90 pounder with a 2.5M sail is a
pretty small subset of of favorable attributes. Hell our oldest son
learned how to sail quite well on an F2 Orbit and I'm considering
putting a full EVA deck on an AHD D72 as one this batch of kids's
playthings, once they learned the basics on dad's Start. They should
blow right by me with a Retro Ripper or equivalent.
Ray